Ever struggled to communicate effectively about your vegan lifestyle? Learn strategies from the best; Harvard-educated psychologist, celebrated speaker, and author, Dr. Melanie Joy

I'm so thrilled you're here today . Let's get started . Welcome to the show Plant-Centered Listener . My name is Ashley and I'm Katie , and today we have a very exciting guest for you , which we will talk about in a minute . But , Katie , I'm really excited because we've got some fun things coming up .

So we wanted to make this Sunday for you very exciting and very fun , and we're going to do it together . So there is a special link in the show notes that you can use if you want to sign up for it . Spots are limited , but I am just so pumped to be able to meal prep live with you .

So what we're going to do , Katie , is when someone signs up , we'll send them a five-day . We'll send you a five-day meal plan to follow , which you can choose to follow or not . It's 100% plant-based . It's also whole food , plant-based and gluten-free friendly , because I myself am plant-based and gluten-free , and so you can choose to follow that meal plan .

Or you can create your own meal plan for the week and bring that and prep that one with us .

I'm not going anywhere that day , so I'll stay on as long as you need me to to answer your questions about meal planning , meal prepping , plant-based eating .

I've been meal planning and meal prepping almost every single week for six years , so I really tried to fine-tune this process to and then be able to teach you how to make it just really easy on yourself , because it's changed my life and I feel like it has the potential to change a lot of other people's lives , especially if you're new to plant-based eating .

And so she suggested it and I was like I am not going to meal prep on a Sunday . I was like that sounds so lame . That's the lamest advice I've ever heard . Well , she was right . So about two years later I gave it a try and my week changed drastically . I didn't have to think about what I was going to eat for the week .

I didn't have to think about where I'm going to get my lunch . Am I going to have to stop by the grocery store my way home from work to pick up ingredients for dinner ? Everything was prepped , ready to go . It was organized , and because it was organized , I felt more organized . So it was just a game changer .

And also at that time I was probably I was several years into my plant-based journey , but it just made eating plant-based so much easier as well because the meals were already prepped and ready to go , and so , again , it was just one less thing to think about .

So that's why I talk about meal planning and meal prepping so much , because it's changed my life so drastically and I feel like it can have the potential to change other people's lives too .

I know that was one of the first things that Ashley suggested when we started working together and , like she said , when you're first starting plant-based eating , or even if you're a couple of years into it , it just makes planning and making sure that you have all the nutrients that you have , that you're getting enough calories , that you're getting enough variety ,

that you're really devoting time and prioritizing time to kind of plan out what that's going to look like .

And for me especially , it helped me de-stress the week but also helped me make choices that aligned more with my goals , rather than making choices out of convenience for the week because I was like I don't want to go to the grocery store , I don't want to cook it's been like a 14-hour day , please let me just go through the drive-thru and so that was such a

huge game changer for me . So we are big cheerleaders for meal planning and meal prepping .

When you , I just did not think about it , which I'm kind of beating myself up for a little bit but like I went out and weeded for about three hours and just forgot to put sunscreen on my back , so that was a huge mistake .

And I feel , like a lot of us who work out in the yard , I'm sure you can relate to this that you just maybe forget a spot or don't put it on , and so my back is a little burnt , but hey , the weeds are gone and the front yard is looking good . So , oh , I bet that's such a good feeling . Yeah , yeah , it was definitely a good feeling .

And then what I ended up doing on Saturday night was , after being sunburned , I went and got hot pot . Have you ever tried ?

I mean it is delicious , so nice , yeah , so in the place we went to had tons of tofu options , vegetables . I mean it was really fantastic , so highly recommend . If you haven't tried it , it's definitely a fun thing to do with a group of people .

So if you've ever , if you haven't , tried an escape room , I highly recommend it . It's just , it's something fun to do . It's a great indoor activity if it's like really hot outside or if you're just looking to switch things up . So we did not escape . It was an incredibly hard escape room .

You know she coined the phrase carnism , which really changed the landscape of the vegan movement , and this only came out maybe 2010 . So not , you know , back in the 80s , it was recently when things really took a big shift .

So we're going to talk about what carnism is and why that , why you should know what that is and how that affects your behavior and your decisions . But we really talk about her other books too that she's really diving into . If you guys don't know , she's a Harvard-educated psychologist and she is really diving into interpersonal relationships .

And if you guys have recently transitioned to going plant-based , you may have had some pushback from family , from friends , from coworkers , from the people in your life where you know they have noticed that you have started to change how you eat and your relationship may be affected .

So it was a really interesting conversation , just from a personal aspect , because it was my first solo podcast . So you guys be gentle . Ashley started me off with a big gun . I know it was my first one . This Harvard-educated psychologist you know that started veganism .

It's OK , not intimidating at all , but she could not have been nicer and we really dive into how to be a good vegan advocate , giving yourself grace on . You know . We talk about kind of as a new plant-based person or vegan person , you may feel pressure to watch these kind of factory farm videos and like kind of torture yourself with these things .

And she talks about how to deal with that , how to deal with pressure of not being a perfect plant-based person . So a lot of us get pressure Like we have to be the perfect , you know image of a vegan and change our whole lives overnight . We talk about how to deal with that .

And then certainly , how to deal with , you know , family and friends kind of questioning your choices or pressuring you to eat how you used to eat . And she gives us so many resources , free resources , that we're going to include in the show notes at the end for you guys to , you know , help with those relationships .

So we cannot wait for you guys to hear this episode .

I'm so excited to hear this .

For many years actually , I never thought about how strange it was that I could be petting my dog with one hand while I ate a pork chop with the other A pork chop that had once been an animal who was at least as intelligent and sentient as my dog . I just didn't make the connection between the meat on my plate and the living being it once was .

But all of that completely changed in 1989 . I was 23 years old and I ate a hamburger that turned out to have been contaminated with campylobacter , which is basically like the salmonella of the red meat world . Wow yeah , and I got really wildly ill . I have never been so sick , had never been so sick before and have never been so sick again in my life .

So I wound up in the hospital . I was on intravenous antibiotics and I thought I was going to die , and I didn't . But after that I stopped eating meat because I was disgusted .

It wasn't like any sort of conscious decision or ethical decision at least not to my conscious awareness I was just disgusted by the last thing that I had eaten that had gotten me so sick . I was one of several people , actually , that was hospitalized for it .

Oh wow , yeah , I had eaten at this restaurant that apparently had an outbreak , so I kind of became a vegetarian , by accident essentially , and so of course I had to learn how to cook for myself and learn how to shop for myself , and in my exploration of how to do this , I of course stumbled upon information about animal agriculture , and that's where things

really began . What I learned just shocked and horrified me . I couldn't believe the extent of harm to non-human animals . More animals are slaughtered globally in one day than the total number of people killed in all wars throughout history .

This is staggering , and this is for animal agribusiness , and I couldn't wrap my brain around the extent of the harm and the suffering to animals and , of course , to the environment . And this was back in 89 , where they didn't even know nearly what they know today , and I was shocked at what I was doing to my body by consuming these products .

But what shocked me , in some ways even more than the information I was learning , was that nobody I talked to about this information was willing to hear what I had to say .

And these were like rational people , they were compassionate people , these were like just as minded people , people who cared about their animals , who loved their dog , who loved our family dog .

The response whenever I tried to share this information with people was always something along the lines of don't tell me that you'll ruin my meal , or they'd call me a radical , you know , a radical vegan , hippie propagandist . I had to come to this journey of discovery and I was just like what is going on ?

It was like I had woken up in the midst of this global insanity , this collective insanity , and so I just became very curious as to how rational , caring people like I had been eating animals , could just stop thinking and feeling when it came to this issue of animal agriculture . So what was going on here ?

And so this was what really catalyzed the journey of the work that's led me to this conversation today . I eventually ended up doing a PhD in psychology and I studied broadly the psychology of violence and nonviolence or we can say of oppression and social transformation .

In some ways and I narrowly looked at my doctoral dissertation I studied the psychology of eating animals and so I figured if I could understand what's going on in people's minds that enable good people to participate in harmful practices , then maybe we can figure out how to change this way of thinking to help people sort of reconnect with their authentic thoughts and

feelings when it comes to this issue and become proactive in the solution instead of passive bystanders enabling the problem . And so this work that I did on my doctoral dissertation , which we can dig into , ended up becoming published through my book why we Love Dogs , eat Pigs and Wear Cows , and it's essentially the psychology of eating animals .

And I honestly did help . I helped things in the family department .

I was 23 . She was producing the eggs at least he digs . You've gotta get some protein . And now she's like 80 and she's gone vegan . She went vegan a few years ago . So oh , wow , you finally got her . You need to pinch her .

The book really helped actually , but they were more like kind of concerned about me and like what's going on , but there were a handful of family members that were actually there was quite some pushback . My immediate family , fortunately , was relatively okay .

But I mean , I think most people listening to this can understand the experience of like how you stop eating animals for whatever reason . Maybe it's for , you know , concerns about your own health or concerns about the health of the environment or the healthy animals you know who are being turned into products for humans to consume .

You know we all come at this from different angles but with the same , you know , sort of mission in a way , which is to increase the health and wellbeing of , you know , our bodies and or maybe the bodies of others in the planet .

So I think most listeners can probably relate to the fact that all you have to do is say I'm vegan and then all of a sudden , like you can feel this wall going up . You know , and you have to come in and read over my meal .

And also , so many vegans have told me over the years and this was also my experience as well when I first became vegan it's not anymore , but you know that becoming vegan and being vegan in some ways , for whatever reason , you become vegan , is one of the most empowering decisions that people make .

I mean , it's a very profound , life-altering decision in many ways , and I'm not saying that veganism is the solution to all the world's problems . It's certainly a part of the solution , right , but it's very , very important , you know , personal choice that people make .

And yet that sort of sense of empowerment and inspiration quickly turns to shock and horror when they start talking to people about this decision that they're so excited about and all of a sudden they find that communication and relationships break down and there's a real struggle .

And this was certainly a problem that I had , you know , also when I was , like you know , dating people . It was really hard , because how do you feel close to people ?

How do you maintain an authentic , deep enough connection with people who are participating in something that you find deeply offensive and probably traumatic in some ways , like many people who don't eat animals sit at the dinner table and see dead animals on the dinner table . They're , what they're seeing is not food .

They might , you know , they used to see it as food before they were vegan , but now they're seeing it as a carcass , you know , as somebody , not something , but someone who had a horrible life and a horrible death , and that they can't get out of their mind Sometimes when they're looking at it .

How do you stay connected with people who are participating in this and exposing you to it and then maybe even reacting with hostility when you try to share the discomfort that you feel and calling you controlling or a picky eater or hypersensitive or , you know , a human hater , all you know , throwing all these stereotypes at you .

It's very much a challenge for people , for many , many people , understandably so , and it was for me as well , and it was one of the things that led me to do the work I did and you know , really a deep dive into all things . Relationships that's the other hat I wear .

I was actually a relationship coach for a long time , very , very interested in relationships and , obviously , psychology .

I'm a psychologist and later on , after I published why we Love Dogs , seven years later , I wrote another book called Beyond Beliefs , a guide to improving relationships and communication for vegans , vegetarians and meat-eaters , because I was hearing story after story after story that so many people stop eating animals and their relationships and communication just completely

break down and it's heartbreaking and it's not necessary , it doesn't have to happen .

So what do you recommend for new vegans and kind of their you know opinion on or their place in advocacy ? Do you recommend that they kind of follow this you know leading by example until they find their footing , or do you recommend them kind of you know going , you know not shying away from , you know these difficult conversations ?

So , really understanding , you know , number one , understanding the psychology of what I call carnism and we can talk about that a little bit , which is what I wrote about and why we love dogs . The psychology that conditions people to basically this carnism is the invisible belief system that conditions people to eat certain animals and it creates a certain psychology .

I call this the carnistic mentality . Understanding the carnistic mentality and how carnism is structured , how it affects people's perceptions and causes this level of defensiveness that we experience , and the way that this gets expressed and often projected onto vegans , who then are forced to go on the defensive Like it's .

You know , there's a lot of mental gymnastics that vegans have to go through to navigate relationships and communication with other vegans as well , you know sometimes .

So , really , one thing I would recommend for everybody is , whether you want to be an active advocate or not is really understand the psychology of carnism , understand the psychology of people who are being , you know , acting defensively against you . So you can learn to communicate in a way that bypasses these defenses rather than reinforces them , right ?

So often we open our mouths and we start to have a conversation and we get into it's not a conversation anymore , it becomes this divisive debate rather than a constructive dialogue , and we get into this .

You know these like this battle of justifications Like , yes , but we wouldn't have to worry about what to do with all the animals if people stopped eating them because we wouldn't bring them in their place .

You need to like , have your sound bites and your talking points and know your facts , but it's really important to understand the psychology so you don't get caught up in it and you don't buy into some of the negative messages you , as a vegan , may hear about yourself .

Many vegans have , for example , internally internalized these negative messages that are promoted in society and that get you know , communicated through our own friends and families .

Sometimes , systems like carnism are structured to keep themselves alive , and one of the ways they do this is by conditioning people to feel defensive against , to resist the very information that would help them think outside of that box , right ?

So , basically , people are conditioned to like , reject information or to feel defensive against or resist information about veganism , and that means , you know , rejecting veganism . What they have to say , and one of the ways this shows up , is through negative stereotyping of vegans . So a vegan will start talking about veganism .

It's very innocently , like you know here . Oh , you asked me why I'm vegan and I'm telling you , and now , all of a sudden , I'm hearing all of these . You're wrong . I don't know my own lifestyle , which you actually never even understood until somebody told you what a vegan was five minutes ago , which is why you wanted to talk to me and ask me the question .

Suddenly , you're right . I don't believe there's nothing wrong about this , right , and then the vegan will hear things like you know , oh , you're overly sensitive , like oh you're just a mentalist , animal lover . You know so , and many vegans actually internalize this and actually try to hide their sensitivity .

Oh , I don't want somebody to think , you know , I'm just overly sensitive so we might try to hide it , except that , like when we understand carnism and the way that it's structured , we can recognize this distortion for what it is Like when we really step back and think about it .

You know the emotions of grief and anger and sadness and whatever else to these emotions that many vegans carry around . These are actually healthy , legitimate , normal emotional responses to the global atrocity that is carnism . You know , much more concerning is the apathy and the numbing of the dominant culture .

So , you know , we can reclaim our sensitivity and also appreciate that . You know this , this projection or stereotype of being overly sensitive that's been used to silence the voices of people who challenge oppression throughout history . I mean people who were , you know , working against African slavery .

The abolitionists were called , you know , sentimentalists and women , you know , suffragettes were called hysterical . You know , somebody , by definition , who's overly emotional isn't rational and people who are not rational are not worth listening to .

So this stereotype is a form of shoot the messenger , right , if you shoot the messenger , you don't have to take seriously the implications of their message .

Now , this was sort of a long winded example , but I really want listeners to take this point in , which is like knowledge is power , and when you recognize these cognitive distortions , these psychological distortions , for what they are , when you understand these stories and stereotypes that have been created by karnistic culture , you are much less likely to apologize for

something like your sensitivity , which is a beautiful thing and a gift that the world's needs much more of , not less of . You know , and much less likely to feel bad about yourself and pathologize yourself and apologize for who and how you are .

So really getting informed about karnism and I would say , the other thing that can go a very long way for for new vegans and all vegans , all people , is when you build what I call relational literacy , which is the understanding of an ability to practice healthy ways of relating and we can talk about this and unpack it a little bit more later if you want to ,

but when you build relational literacy , you know a big part of that is learning , effective communication . Communication is the primary way we relate .

You kind of develop this superpower where everything in your life gets a lot easier , a lot easier , and most of us , you know , have to learn complicated geometry that we'll probably never need to use , and yet we don't get a single formal lesson in how to relate in a way that's healthy and how to communicate effectively and like .

When you look at the most pressing problems in our world and in our lives , these are not problems that exist because we don't know how to do geometry . So , you know , most of us never get a formal lesson in how to relate in a way that's healthy .

And just building your relational literacy even if you just build it by , you know 10% of what it is now can be completely game changing for you and help you navigate relationships and communications with everybody , not just people who don't share your philosophy or ideology .

If you are a vegan , you know , or you're not eating animals . Simply , whenever you open your mouth and you're communicating about the issue , you are , you are acting as an advocate , whether you're doing so intentionally or not . So it's a really good idea to build your advocacy skills .

It'll help you avoid tricky situations and conflicts that you don't want to get into probably you don't need to get into . You learn when not to advocate , you know . And then , when you are communicating , you know when you really just want to not have that conversation .

And when you are advocating , you know you can learn how to do that more effectively and that can also go a long way to your own , you know , helping you feel more sustainable and not get exhausted from these conversations and being a good ambassador for the cause . Our Center for Effective Vegan Advocacy we have .

At our Center for Effective Vegan Advocacy , we have a lot of courses and materials , webinars . Oh great yeah , a lot of free materials for people .

Oh wonderful , or anybody who wants to , like you know , share a message with the people . You know this in their lives . This is what the world looks like through my eyes as a vegan , and we also have a seven minute video which is called um , uh .

What to Say to Vegans and basically it's a video version of this is if you were a vegan , this is what the world would look like through your eyes , and this is why it's so challenging for so many people to be vegan . And here's what you can say to vegans to help establish and create greater connection .

So , in terms of you know the landscape of advocacy , I'm sure it's changed a lot since you wrote . You know why we Love Dogs , even though there's some conflicts . You know , once you've decided maybe to go vegan with your family , there's also can be some divisiveness , like you mentioned , in the movement .

In and of itself that can be a little bit , uh , of a deterrent sometimes . So how have you found navigating those changes over the years in terms of like , uh , I know a lot of our audience .

A lot of the things that they deal with is kind of like the expectation to be the perfect vegan immediately or to kind of go vegan overnight , and if you're not able to do that then you're kind of kicked out of the club . So I'm sure you've seen kind of a change , you know , and maybe it comes in waves .

But how do you feel about , uh , how have you navigated that over there , kind of being a pioneer and kind of an icon of the movement . How do you , how do you deal with the , the , the kind of divisiveness among the , the vegan members themselves ?

. I first stopped eating animals , of course , and it's really come a long way . I mean , veganism has just really mushroomed everywhere around the I mean I want to say everywhere . To my knowledge , everywhere I've been talking about this issue and I think 50 some odd countries now , and I haven't seen an exception yet .

Um , you know where where support for veganism and awareness of veganism is really growing tremendously and , as such , the movement has gotten much more , um , professionalized in a sense . Like you know , we used to have it was all volunteer groups doing the vast majority of the work . I mean I would say still probably there's .

You know , all volunteer groups are doing a huge amount of work and we also have big professional organizations now where you've got like large numbers of paid staff and you know the messaging has gotten a lot more polished . You've got professionals coming into the movement who know marketing and PR and strategies . So it's been really interesting to see this change .

And and so veganism is becoming more mainstream , it's becoming easier to talk about and you know , with this , just like with any movement , whether it's in the early stages or in later stages , people have differences and you know it gets even more diverse as time goes on .

The movement becomes more and more diverse because it's attracting a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons . And in answer to , you know , your question number one , there is a certain amount of infighting in the movement and I think that's what you're alluding to .

Is , you know , vegans who have certain ideas about the way to promote veganism , feeling like this is the right way ? And if you don't do it this way , then you know you're hurting the cause or you're not really vegan , or you know whatever it might be . First of all , not all forms of advocacy are equally effective . You know .

Some of them are actually counterproductive . Some of the more common ones are , in fact , really counterproductive . We have a course called the science of effective vegan advocacy where we talk about , like , what are the methods that actually work ?

Is a full vegan , go vegan ask , you know , is it more likely to get people to change than an incremental ask , which is encouraging people to move towards change incrementally or more slowly ? The science suggests that the latter is the case .

You know , I always recommend that people say , you know , instead of saying reduce or asking for people to reduce or go vegan , to ask or suggest that people consider becoming as vegan as possible , which is actually changing incrementally , but with the awareness of the direction that you're moving in , and you know it also lowers people's defensiveness .

To that ask Infighting is normal in movements . You know people are different and people have different ideas . People's most people , as I said , haven't built relational literacy and many people relate to their differences in a way that turns those differences into divisive debates when instead they could be productive conversations . Veganism is no , you know .

The vegan movement is no exception .

We are one of our main projects this year that we're launching is end infighting and it's a substantial project that we've been working on for quite some time and the past couple of years I've done a deep dive into all things infighting and you know one of the main components of this project besides my , I'm giving four hour workshops and shorter workshops not for

advocates on how to learn to be , you know , to end infighting essentially prevent in infighting Building out a pretty substantial website where anybody can go from any movement actually to learn what are the key causes of infighting . You know what are the costs of infighting .

We're talking about massive amounts of money to movements and and you know how , can I become immediately proactive in helping to end this problem , so that's going to be people who are interested . The website is not up yet , but you can just go to infightingorg and you'll have a lot of resources there .

But one of the issues really about you know when it comes to infighting is that vegans are people and people have differences , as I said , and when we don't learn how to communicate , how to build relational literacy , essentially , then we relate to our differences in a way that causes us to become opponents and feel like opponents , you know , when in fact we are .

We are all working toward the same end . There are a number of like key causes of infighting . Not having high levels of relational literacy is one of them . Another one is that many people in the vegan movement have certain a certain degree of trauma or traumatization . I mean , you mentioned this earlier .

We've been exposed for whatever reason , like even if you've come into this movement , you know , because you're interested in health , chances are , if you're subscribing to , you know you're writing about plant based eating , you're subscribing to any kind of vegan feeds .

You are getting exposed to graphic imagery of animal suffering , and people can and to do become traumatized from this , and when we don't recognize the trauma for what it is , we can end up acting , thinking and acting in ways that drive in fighting when we wouldn't even expect to . So I can give an example of this . If you feel like that would be helpful .

Oh yeah , absolutely so . When we , when we become traumatized , you know , we can start to develop what what I call traumatic thinking . It's a mentality , it's a way of thinking whereby we start to look at the world as one giant traumatic event . You know , this is unconscious , people aren't aware of this one .

This is happening generally , but we start to think of the world as one traumatic event with , like , only three roles to be played . You can either be a victim , you know , and that's what happens in a traumatic event . Or , if you're not a victim , you're a perpetrator , right , so you're with us , or you're against us .

You know you're a good guy or you're a bad guy . And if you're not a victim and you're not a perpetrator , the third role that you can play is that of a hero . Some people think witnesses the third role , but a witness actually is somebody who witnesses and they can be a witness perpetrator if they don't help , and they could be a witness hero if they do .

So we start .

What happens is when we've become traumatized is we start to think very rigidly and we start to put everyone , including ourselves , into one of these three categories and , you know , with no nuance , no gray area , you're one or the other or the other , and we lose our capacity to appreciate that all of us are complicated , messy people who are , you know , do

harmful things and we do less harmful things , and we're sometimes victims and we're sometimes perpetrators and we're sometimes heroes .

We start to hold ourselves and others to impossible standards , right , and so if you have these rigid categories , you know , if you're not a victim meaning you're not hanging in a slaughterhouse , you know , and you're not a hero , because , in this way of thinking , heroes are people who are all good all the time and you just had a glass of wine that wasn't

certified vegan .

You're a perpetrator , and so you can see this

kind of thinking . It's pretty apparent in the movement and this is very , very toxic and it's it's causing a lot of problems and it's one of a number of key drivers of infighting .

And so recognizing trauma for what it is and learning how to heal ourselves from trauma and prevent people from getting traumatized , including ourselves , is really , really key to helping heal the movement and heal ourselves . And you know one of the ways ? I have a course on this . Actually , one of our Civa courses goes over this whole .

It's called sustainable vegan advocacy learning how to be a vegan in a way that's sustainable and doesn't burn you out . And a big part of this is recognizing trauma and treating it .

So one of the things you can do right now , if you're listening and thinking , oh my God , that's me , you know , I think I might be traumatized , right , you notice that you're , you know , starting to feel like you have flashbacks to the terrible . You know the images that you've seen .

Or you're starting to feel misanthropic , like you're losing faith in humanity , or you notice that you feel guilty for feeling good . So you can't like . You know you can't enjoy yourself anymore . You start feeling like , oh my God , whatever I do , it's never enough . You know you're dysregulated , meaning you're emotionally out of balance .

You know these are key symptoms of trauma . What you can do right now is you can stop witnessing . Just do not watch those videos , do not look at those images . Many people , when I say this to them , are like no , but I have to . I have to because I feel guilty if I stop . And I say , well , why do you feel guilty ?

And they say , well , because considering what the animals go through , I mean the least I can do is spend two minutes seeing it . Except that two minutes is not stopping those animals from going through what they're going through . What that two minutes is doing is feeding your trauma and making you less effective .

But what you do in increasing the chances that you're going to burn out and probably take people down with you , because that's what burnout often does . So stop witnessing . Don't make others unintentional witnesses . You know , very often vegans , you know they want to shock people with the graphic .

You know this feeling like I got to bang you over the head with it to wake you up . The problem with that . It's understandable , you know , because people turn away . Denial is the primary defensive carnism . We know people are in denial . We know they want to turn away . We know that . Don't tell me that you'll ruin my meal .

You know , we know this attitude is like deeply , deeply entrenched , and so we were like , okay , how do we break through those defenses ? Shock them . But unfortunately this strategy tends to backfire , like when you shot people with this imagery . You traumatize them Like you don't know what their trauma history is . You don't know .

I mean , I can tell you people have done it to me and there are things I will never be able to unsee that are not helping me be a better advocate . You know so . It's a form of emotional violence .

When we shock people with this imagery and they often people will react by looking at us as perpetrators because we've foisted violence on them and their anger gets directed at us vegans , you know rather than where it should be directed , which is , you know the industry , so don't make other people unintentional witnesses .

Just get their consent when you want to share information with them which actually goes a long way . Do not take in anymore . You know graphic imagery yourself unless you absolutely have to and some people do to do their jobs . And you know practice , really good self care .

That the two things that are fundamental , really , really important to building resilience to trauma . You know healing from trauma and building resilience are engaging in very good self care , asking yourself what you need to feel in balance and giving yourself permission to do that , and building healthy relational connections with others .

And if you can do that , I mean easier said than done , but you know you'll be able to be a more effective advocate and you know a representative , you know an ambassador for the cause in a way that that works better .

kind of these atrocities that were happening to these animals and I just can't , I can't , I cannot , you know , as personally I cannot , you know , I have not , I'll have nightmares and I just won't be able to be a functional human being .

So it's so nice to be able to kind of give ourselves permission that you know we don't need to face those things and still be , still be a good advocate .

ourselves as a service organization . We are in service of the people doing great work to help create a more compassionate world for all beings , and you know we're there for you and we want people to come to our website and to avail themselves of our resources .

We have a lot of resources that we have , you know , put together over the years after really listening and hearing and thinking about what kind of support is needed and how you know we could best contribute to the , to the people who are doing great work , and that's your listeners and that's you . So come visit us and yes of what we offer .

So I cannot wait for our listeners to be able to take advantage of that . So when do you expect that to be done , you think ?

We're also going to have another site with extra information specifically for vegans , but everything on this website applies to veganism as well as other advocacy movements and groups , and also I have a new book coming out called how to End Injustice Everywhere , and that's coming out in . September and yeah , thank you .

The last chapter of that is also it's on infighting .

And so this book , hopefully , will also be another resource to really think about how to understand these various systems of carnism and other isms that we're a part of and how they fit together and how we can build our own awareness so that we can be participating in the world in a way that really reflects our core values to the best of our ability .

So , yeah , so thank you and for what you're doing and providing your listeners with such , you know , important information to , because it's not easy when , even now , even though veganism is becoming mainstream , it's still people become vegan and they can really easily feel lost and frustrated and isolated .

And you know the butt of jokes and you know , even today it's just it's socially acceptable to talk to and about vegans in a way that would be considerable , you know , when it comes to other people , so , or certain other people , so it's , you know , it's really really great to be able to provide this kind of support for listeners .

So tell us about Just Beings , your new podcast .

And so Ivana and I cohost Just Beings , where we talk to people who are , you know , change makers in the world . They're working to change the way that we think , you know , to create a better world for humans , animals and the planet . So we have people on from these different they come in from these different angles .

They're not all vegans who come on to the podcast and we talk about how you know the interconnectedness of various issues and how you know what we need to do . But we help people build awareness of issues , critical social issues in the world and you know and learn how they can become a part of the solution and also build personal empowerment in the process .

So we have a psychology focus and this year we're focusing on food systems transformation , which is like a big topic , I know , but really we want listeners to get an understanding of like . What does this mean ? This is kind of like the big thing being talked about now transforming the food system . What is that ?

But the food system is really at the the crocks . It's like the hub of a wheel of . You know where . There are so many spokes coming out of that and so many problems intersect when it comes to the food system , which is like industrial agriculture , animal agriculture , you know . So how do we , how do we create a food system ?

That's you know where we can work . People who want to create a healthier food system can work together . You know groups who work together as opposed to against each other . You know people who are trying to protect humans from exploitation and the environment from exploitation and animals from exploitation , and have healthy food to boot .

So our listeners I'm sure you can tell , talking to Melanie , that she doesn't talk at you . She is talking with you and trying to give you all of this information from a very science backed place and not just from an opinion place , a pitchfork place , a pushy place . She is coming from a very gentle place . So I'm sure your podcast will follow suit .

So we'll definitely put a link in the show notes for that , because we have podcast lovers here . Oh , thank you .

So , last thing is just I know we mentioned a couple of your websites and everything , but in terms of you know , the best way that people can connect with you , yeah , that's a great question .