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face as humans and as humans in America. Racist white people in the United States will sign their own death certificates. They will vote for policies that crush them, no safety nets, no healthcare because they feel too much like entitlements. And those are folks of color, right. Listen to The Laverne Cox Show and the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast, make sure you subscribe and share. Hi. This is Ali Wentworth, host of Go ask Alli Season two.

We'll be back soon with more new episodes. As always, Go ask Alli is there for binging and catching up, purpose and meaning in life or how you figure out what life is all about, and that requires unhappiness. So here's the great paradox. To be happy, you also have to be unhappy. Don't miss a single episode. Listen to Go ask Alli on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure you subscribe and share. Welcome

to Criminalia, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Hello, and Welcome to Criminalia. I'm Maria trom Marquis and I'm Holly Fry. We know that humans have always managed to commit crimes, almost certainly before there was even recorded history, so we decided that we would start looking at those

crimes and get our hands dirty. We wanted to dig in and look at some of history's crimes criminals to understand them better, and in doing so, we're curious if we can find commonality with our modern world and our modern problems, and whether these crimes look different a little bit of distance on the timeline, and whether any of these perpetrators emerge as more sympathetic characters. This first season is going to be all about poisoners, specifically women poisoners.

Poison is often called a woman's weapon, despite the fact that roughly two thirds of the poisonings committed throughout time have been the work of men. So let's start looking at these women and their motivations and see if any patterns develop. This week, we're looking into the life and crimes of Tilly Clinic, a Polish immigrant who killed at least one and possibly as many as twenty people and at least one dog between the years nineteen fourteen and

nineteen twenty two. I will confess that when you were telling me about the research you were doing initially on this and you mentioned the dog, I was like, well, I hate her. Not that it wasn't terrible, it should killed people, just you know, that was for me the

worst thing that she could have done as well. She was born Tiafila Burick to Michaelina and Michael Burick on October twenty second, eighteen seventy seven, and Tilly was probably right around four years old when her family immigrated to the United States. They moved from Poland to the Little Poland neighborhood of Chicago, and of the seven children in the family, oh Tilly, as she was called, was the eldest.

Chicago has a long history of Polish immigration, and Polish Americans have lived in the area for well over a century. In eighteen ninety, around the time Tilly was born, there was a wave of immigration to the United States. At that time, the number of Polish immigrants in the city blossomed to more than twenty five thousand. By nineteen thirty, a few years before she died, that number had grown to one hundred and sixty five thousand. Most they lived

below the poverty line. Is the tale of immigration in so many ways. So let's set the scene of the actual situation we're talking about today. So this is Chicago in the early twentieth century. You couldn't necessarily count on

your food and drinks to be clean. Upton Sinclair started publishing the serialized version of his groundbreaking expose of the meat industry in the US, The Jungle, in nineteen oh five, and while that led to the creation of the Meat Inspection Act in nineteen oh six, food safety legislation was still in its infancy. But if you were at a restaurant or a club or a hotel around the city, there were other dangers when it came to what you consumed at the table. In particular, wait staff were known

to target patrons who didn't tip well. Not like the content of the chatter in fight club, although honestly maybe a little of that. They usually poisons and various other things you really don't want to be in your food, so remember always tip well. But moreover, it turns out that you couldn't really count on food safety at home either,

at least if you lived with a Tilly Climic. During the time that Chicago's most visible criminal element was organized crime, Tilly was quietly becoming the city's most prolific female serial killer. She'd allegedly killed between six and twenty people. Like we said, but that was all through arsenic poisoning. So we're going to talk first just about what arsenic actually is. It is a naturally occurring element in the Earth's crust and

in its raw state. As much as it has this instant conjuring of poison, it's not actually harmful the way it naturally exists. Arsenic only really becomes poisonous when it's converted into arsenic trioxide, which is better known as white arsenic. White arsenic not only is odorless, but it's tasteless, and it's white or transparent informs, so it's easily confused with

sugar or flour. But it's highly toxic when it's inhaled into your lungs or when you ingest it, and it might surprise you that even white arsenic is actually fairly benign in relatively small amounts, because it is very lethal at higher doses. In fact, doctors have actually prescribed white arsenic through the years in its low dosage as a treatment for things like asthma, typhus, malaria, even menstrual cramps, and it continues to be administered intravenously as a chemotherapy

for a specific type of leukemia. When arsenic is ingested, initially, it causes symptoms such as abdominal pain, diarrhea that's often being accompanied by bleeding and vomiting. It's terrible. As the dose gets more and more lethal in the body, though, the symptoms also begin to include convulsions, cardiovascular problems, hair loss, liver and kidney problems, and even organ damage. So not a peaceful way to go. Definitely not sugar no, and despite its potency, it has been used in the production

of semiconductors. It's been used as wood preservative, and it's also sometimes found in pesticides. Manufacturers in the nineteenth century started using it for its green pigment in products like paint and wallpaper, fabrics, beauty products, and as food coloring. The list goes on because green is very beautiful color, so sometimes those products would actually make people sick, but at the time, no one was suspecting that the arsenic in them was the problem that was causing their ailments.

In the early twentieth century, when Tilly was busy murdering people in her community, the average Americans medicine cabinet was stocked with all sorts of toxic things like radioactive radium for acne, and mercury as a topical antiseptic for cuts and scrapes and burns. Morphine showed up in everyday products and everything from teething medications to cures for heroin addiction.

From roughly the late eighteenth into the early twentieth century is considered to be the golden age of poisoners, and during that time, arsenic specifically caught the nickname the inheritance powder. And you can probably imagine why the police really didn't have any of the tools to test the corpse for poison. Arsenic wasn't only easy to acquire, it was hard to detect as a cause of death, which was win win

for the golden age of poisoners. It was common practice for doctors to treat suspected poisoning with leeches bleeded out, or try to identify the poison involved by sniffing the contents of the person's stomach. Remember how we said arsenic was odorless though, Yeah, so you just sniff those contents

for nothing. But it was also just unusual for a doctor or a coroner to suspect arsenic as a cause of death, mainly because the symptoms of arsenic poisoning that Maria just talked about, diarrhea and vomiting and abdominal pain are so similar to a lot of other disorders. It's also really hard to place a poisoner at the scene

of the murder. Dying can typically take hours or longer if you administered the poison gradually, such as with someone's meals, so the perpetrator could easily have a seemingly airtight alibi for their whereabouts because the window of time had such fuzzy edges when it actually wouldn't be until the late nineteenth century that a chemist named James marsh would come

up with a reliable chemical test for arsenic poisoning. Today, arsenic poisoning is treated with chelatition therapy, which uses special drugs that bind to metal ions in your blood. So rough On Rats was the product that became popular in the late eighteen hundreds. It was composed mainly of arsenic and a little black coal for masking the poison, and while i was advertised for use in killing rats, mice, bedbugs, flies, roaches, it occasionally was used for the very off label purpose

of killing husbands. Believe it or not, the marketing slogan for this poison rough On Rats was don't die in the house, thinking, of course, being that the creature you had poisoned would scurry away to die. It was also really easily available at the local store, and Tillie actually got her first bottle of rough On Rats from her cousin Nellie Kulik, and Nellie, it would turn out, was

also a fellow poisoner murder and husbands. According to accounts from her neighbors, Tillie was sent to have precognitive dreams, meaning that she could predict the future in real life through sort of a sixth sensish kind of way. She began to predict the deaths of neighborhood dogs, and she was surprisingly accurate, but it turns out she was just scheduling their deaths. We're getting a little ahead of ourselves though, in the progression of Tillie's activities with rough on rats.

So we're going to back up to eighteen ninety five. Hi, It's Laverne Cox and on my podcast Verne Cox Show, we're ripping the band aid off. Trauma, resilience dating, diet culture dating, white supremacy dating. Okay, I'm not gonna get explicit, but just because you're cute, like I'm not going you're gonna say yes, girl, and honey. We have a lot

of fun along the way. You have a lot of lesbian fans who love your femininity and glamour and they just really really want I want us to talk openly about the difficult things we all face as humans and as humans in America. Racist white people in the United States will sign their own death certificates. They will vote for policies that crush them, no safety nets, no healthcare because they feel too much like entitlements. And those are

folks of color, right. Listen to The Laverne Cox Show and the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast make sure you subscribe and share. Hi. This is Ali Wentworth, host of Go Ask Alli Season two. We'll be back soon with more new episodes, but what you can do is binge the first half of season two or revisit our first spectacular season. Everyone has to deal with money, and technically like people don't talk about it.

It's like this quiet thing that everyone wants to avoid. But then everyone wants to live this life and doesn't matter what how you define that life, but you need money for it. Just a few of our fabulous guests the season are former editor of People magazine Jess Cagel, New York Times bestselling author Isabel Gillies, and writer and

Oprah's favorite life coach Martha Beck. And people come to me now and they will say negative things, and I think, I respectfully do not give a crap what you think, because I'm a crazy old bat now and you can't stop me. That's great. Our guests have so much to say. One liston isn't enough. Listen to Go ask Ali on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure you subscribe and share Hey, I'm Gabrielle Collins, period drama nerd and you're behind the scenes guide to Bridgerton.

On Bridgerton the Official Podcast, we're learning how this fantasy world dipped in history came to life. Daphanie, her costume design really is about the elegance of simplicity. It's just color and shape. We went old school and we got two scene cartists in who painted the backings for us by hand. These dukes are all like in their late twenties early thirties. Almost all of them are unmarried, really

good looking, and none of them have syphilis. Can you imagine when he looks into your eyes and then he dips you. We just heard this sort of ripping sound. Yeah, I think this has been a wardrobe malfunction. Listen to Bridgerton the Official Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your favorite shows. Welcome back to Criminalia. By eighteen ninety five, Tillie was married to John mckawitz.

His name may have been Joseph not John. Records aren't entirely consistent, but we're gonna go with John because that's what the majority of records from the time referred to him as that is one of the delights word I'm using ironically of doing historical research, particularly when you are talking about immigrants, because there was not a vested interest always in the government in keeping accurate records about them, So you often have these these people's stories that get

really muddy because their names do shift around in the historical record. Anyway, by all accounts this couple, Tilly and John, were well liked in their community, and their marriage appeared by all accounts to be happy. Tilly made her life as a housekeeper, but it was also during this time that Tilly started telling neighbors about some visions that she was having. She was, as we mentioned before the break, an alleged psychic who was skilled specifically at predicting deaths.

This included predicting the death of her own husband, John, who had left her a thousand dollars When he died in nineteen fourteen. The coroner's report listed his death as a result of heart trouble, nothing suspicious. There was no reason at the time to suspect that John had been poisoned by his wife. The nickname black widow, which is often given to women who kill their lovers in order to inherit. Their wealth would eventually be bestowed upon Tilly,

but not just yet. Here's a little more in detail on John's sudden end. Okay. In the beginning of nineteen fourteen, Tilly began telling friends and those in the community that she dreamed that John was ill. She expected he would be on his deathbed in just a few weeks, and when he died in January thirteenth that year, the cause of death was listed as heart trouble, and Tilly collected a thousand dollars in life insurance. I guess after nineteen years,

she just didn't want to gun it to twenty. She's like enough. After receiving that payout on John's life insurance policy, Tilly actually remarried pretty quickly. See, now, that's the thing. She remarried quickly often, And I have to I always sort of wonder, like if she would follow in love with someone new and be like, oh, I'll kill my husband and we'll start out fresh with like this new thousand dollars. It's just my own personal theory. Yeah, I

think there's merit to it. But her new husband, Joseph Raskowski, died just three months after they got married. And he happened to leave his widow twelve hundred dollars in cash and seven hundred twenty two dollars in insurance money. Not only did Tilly predict Joseph's death, she went on to predict the deaths of her third husband, although they may or may not have been married, it's a little sketchy.

And her fourth husband, as well as children, she cared for a few neighbors and possibly some other family members. And not only did she joke with neighbors that her fourth husband, Frank, had quote two inches to live, which is a really interesting, fascinating turn of phrase, she allegedly taunted him on his deathbed and said things like it won't be long now and you'll be dying soon, which is hard in my own home. You got two inches to live? I don't know, right, It's like callous on

a level that's hard to comprehend, right right. She also, in an act of both cruel and creative, knitted herself a morning hat as she sat by his bedside while he was dying. She even so far as to purchase a thirty dollars bargain coffin to keep in the basement of her house. Waiting for his death. That storage areament was a little unsettling request made of her landlord, who began to be a little suspicious of Tilly after that

came in. Frank did die on April twentieth, nineteen twenty one, and it is said that when it happened, Tillie played dance music in the room. The coroner listed Frank's cause of death as bronchial pneumonia. Tilly's poisonous predilections unnoticed. She once again collected on his life insurance, this time in the amount of six hundred seventy five dollars, nearly as much as the last two. I know she's downgrading the insurance situation with each one. They're going faster now, you know.

It's just not enough time to like build up to the thousand. That's another theory I have. It's interesting and grimly fun to note that frank An Tillie's home at nine twenty four Winchester It's a house in East Dillige in Chicago shows up on the Old Fourth Square social networking site as Old Lady Tilly Clinics Haunted House. Even today, Tilly was still not arrested, though that didn't happen until after she botched an attempt at poisoning husband number five,

that was Joseph Clemack. She and Joseph had gotten married in July of nineteen twenty one, again not long after Frank's demise, and Clemack is said to have been a relatively wealthy man, but Tilly did not like that. He also apparently had a wandering eye, and by October of nineteen twenty two, he was in the hospital experiencing arm numbness, leg paralysis, and other symptoms consistent with severe arsenic poisoning.

So while he was in the hospital, Tilly's husband recalled that his food had tasted strangely lately, and here's one big red flag. He remembered the dog dying after eating scraps of food till he had cooked. Her husband also stated he'd planned to press charges against her and till he kissed him. Such a strange dynamic at play, But it was not poisoning Joseph that she went on trial for. While Tilly was arrested initially for the attempted murder of

Joseph Klemick, who would survive her poison his hand. After an investigation into the deaths of her previous husbands. The crime Tilly was eventually tried for was the murder of Frank, her third husband, but even as she was taken in, she appeared completely indifferent to the whole situation. It is said that she told the arresting officer, who was Lieutenant William Malone, the next one I want to cook dinner

for is you? You made all my trouble. After eighteen hours of interrogation, Tilly confessed to her crimes, admitting to mixing rat poison into her victim's food and drink note plural. It's interesting, right, Like eighteen hours of interrogation is considered extreme, it is, and she just gives it all up. Then there's that whole thing of like is this a coerced confession at that point? But her later behavior makes it seem like she's pretty down with this information being one

true and part of public records. Yeah, she's a badass. Just two grains of arsenic is enough to kill almost anyone, and as much as eight grains were found in Frank's organs, so enough to kill four people. Authorities decided to exhume Tillie's other husbands and found their stomachs each contained lethal doses of arsenic, and although evidence existed to convict her of as many as twenty murders by arsenic, only one

charge resulted in a conviction. Although she was not the only woman and wife in her community to be arrested for suspicion of poisoning, she was the only one of them who was sentenced. Yeah. Remember how we mentioned her cousin earlier. Yeah. Authorities went on to investigate a possible poison ring in the Little Poland neighborhood, arresting other local women in what the assistant state attorney at the time that was, a man named William McLaughlin called quote the

most astonishing wholesale poisoning plot uncovered. He wanted the death penalty for Tilly, but without better evidence, the other women who had been rounded up just had to be released. As Tillie's story unfurls, it becomes apparent that it wasn't just husbands that she poisoned. She played fast and loose with rough on rats, poisoning people who irritated her and dogs who barked too much. In the neighborhood. Life was

especially risky if you were one of Tillie's cousins. In nineteen twelve, Tillie's cousin Stanley Zaczuski died at the age of sixteen. Tillie, who was in her mid thirties at the time, tended on him while he was ill. Another cousin, Stanley's sister, Stell, died in nineteen thirteen. She was twenty three at the time, and again Tillie played the role of caregiver. After her husband Frank's death, Tillie started seeing

a man named Joseph Grantkowski, like lovers before him. Joseph died in nineteen fourteen after jilting her and back to cousins. In nineteen fifteen, Tillie's cousin Helen died at age fifteen. Another cousin, Nick Micko, became sick from arsenic poisoning, but he was lucky enough to actually recover. In nineteen nineteen, Tillie's cousin Rose died after attending Tillie and Frank's wedding party.

In nineteen eighteen, Tillie may have been involved in the poisoning of Woejecks Drummer, who was the husband of her cousin Nellie the same Nellie from she procured her rat poison. It turns out that Tillie wasn't only cooking arsenic into meals, she was also a confectioner. Twizzlers may make mouse happy, but you definitely want to skip Tillie's streets. So Stella Guskowski, sister of Tillie's former boyfriend Joseph, got sick after she ate a candy that was given to her by Tillie

after the two women had an argument. Joseph died from tainted candy as well. Rose Split had also stayed and Tillie gave her arsenic confused candies after Joseph Klink talked to her. So jealous, Tillie was willing to go after innocent women who her husband even dared to converse with. So let's keep going because we're only about halfway through the body count. There was also a woman named Bessie Kopzick's sister in law of Tilly's husband Frank, who fell

sick after eating Tillie's cooking, but Bessie recovered. Children, primarily relatives, were also on Tillie's hit list. At least four children in Tillie's sphere were poisoned between nineteen seventeen nineteen eighteen, Dorothy Spara died at age two. Twins Sophie and Ben's Strummer also died. John Strummer was the only one to recover. Lillian's drummer, who was in her early teens, lived at Tillie's home for a year when she became deathly ill

from the food and suffered heart trouble. So skip ahead just a few years to March nineteen twenty three and a man named Myers goes missing. Suspicious. Maybe he might have been one of Tillie's husband's, but he was more

likely just a boyfriend. Records from this time, as we've mentioned, not always robust, and a lot of times people would just claim to be spouses without going through the paperwork, kind of like common law, but more like they were just like, well, we lived together, and we live as a married couple. Either way, the risk of dying was obviously considerably high for any of Tilly's paramours, legally wed or not. I don't think she cared about the paperwork,

just the life insurance. At her trial, Tillie wore the black hat that she had made when her third husband, Frank had been on his deathbed. She had also warned it to his funeral as she had planned. Historically, in Chicago in the early twentieth century, women who were brought to trial for murder, which was usually murder of their husbands,

were almost always acquitted. If a woman was unlucky enough to be convicted, she was generally going to be given an amazingly light sentence in comparison to men who had stood trial for murder, and it really helped your case. If you were very feminine, weeping a bit and flirting would always help. In the year's leading up to Tillie's trial, twenty eight women had been charged with murder in Cook County,

where Chicago is located. Twenty four were acquitted. It is probably no coincidence that all twenty four of those women were considered conventionally attractive. Up to twenty eight, only four were found guilty, Hilda Axeland, who was not considered a meaty, Via Trepagnier, who was middle aged, Emma Simpson who was determined to be insane, and Dora Waterman, who also was not known for her looks. On the other hand, the well dressed, well groomed Cora or Fuen, who shot her

boyfriend over his cheating, walked free. Tilly, though, did not have these advantages. She was nothing like skylish Belva Gartner and beautiful Beulah Annam, the killers who inspired the play Chicago. According to Genevieve Forbes, a crime reporter who covered the trial for the Chicago Tribune, Tilly was neither beautiful nor charming. She was described as a middle aged woman forty five who was squat quote unquoth, with a greasy complexion and a lumpy figure. Her dull brown hair was pulled back

into a nod at the back of her head. Despite having lived in Chicago since she was just a little kid, she spoke only broken English, and it was reported that she growled, I shudder to think what Genevieve for During the proceedings, prosecutors read a list of twenty alleged victims of Tilly, pausing after each name to ask her did you kill this person? And each time she would reportedly shrug, responding to each of the simple yeah, I wish I could have bet. At this trial, the trial Jedge asked

for something called a psychopathic lab report. According to the examining doctor, Tilly was a quote subnormal mentality with an intellect and I quote again no higher than that of an eleven year old child. As we just mentioned, she didn't really speak English especially well, so let's take these results with a grain of salt. And it was reported she was afflicted with dementia precox, a diagnosis today that

would be schizophrenia. She was also described as a rattlesnake, as a heartless woman and to do to the murders around her. She got the nickname we mentioned earlier, Black Widow. Hi. It's Ali Wentworth, a middle aged woman with a lot of questions and a lot of answers I have pulled out of my tush as host of Go Ask Alli, my listeners want more, so we are digging in. It's real. It's honest, open and unexpected and sometimes amusing. Can you

start with your infamous nineteen thousand dollars haircut? Yes, and this is a great story I feel about mothers and daughters with a dream and an empty bank account. Just a few of our fabulous guests this season are New York Times bestselling author Isabel Gillies, writer and Oprah's Favorite life coach, Martha Beck and former editor of People Magazine Jess Cagel. If we know intimate details about another person, then that person is socially important to us. Okay, so

that's what you like to gossip about. Wait, what do you gussip about? All new episodes of Go ask Alli release every Thursday. Listen to Go Scalie on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys, Katie Lowe's here. You might know me as Quinn Perkins on Scandal. I am also the host of Katie's Crib. It's a podcast about all things parenthood. Katie's Crib is back with new episodes every Thursday. We have got an

amazing lineup of guests. We have got the amazing Katerina Scorsone, who you might also know as doctor Amelia Shephard from Grey's Anatomy. She is talking about her three children. We've also got kat McPhee Foster. She just became a mom like two seconds ago. We just have a great hang sessh talking about all things new Mama. We are going

to be covering everything from discipline to mom ring. Tune in as I bring on celebrities, experts, and even more guests to continue to help you get through parenthood one step at a time. Listen to Katie's crib on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Because of the evidence beyond the single murder, investigators obtained permission to exoom the corpses of Tillie's dead husbands for arsenic

toxicity testing. Newspaper headlines covering the trial featured headlines like three more bodies to be exhoomed in clemic case, and bodies of other relatives will be exhumed. All those cousins, all those cousins, all yeah, the children and dogs thing. I just obviously killing anybody as bad. But Tillie, though, stuck to a story that Frank had died of alcohol poisoning and that she had absolutely not killed her spouses. She said, quote, I loved them, they loved me. They

just died, same as other people. She continued, I'm not responsible for that. I could not help if they wanted to die. Contrary to her statement during the trial, the coroner accusingly asserted, quote, there is no question that missus clinic poisoned everyone. She wanted to get out of the way. After the jury deliberated or just an hour and twenty minutes, Tilly was found guilty of the murder of her third husband,

Frank Kopsick. In nineteen twenty three. Judge Marcus Kavanaugh sentenced her to life in prison without the possibility of parole. That was the harshest sentence ever given to a woman in Chicago at that time. Four jurors thought she should be given the death penalty. At the time, no woman had ever been sentenced to death in the state of Illinois. The Chicago Tribune reporter Forbes called her gruesomely cruel and went on to say that Tilly is a spectator in

her own drama. While on all accounts, Tilly is considered to have been friendly to the other prisoners, once she was incarcerated, she definitely did not want to talk about the poisonings. It has said that she would yell, quote, I didn't rob nobody, I didn't shoot nobody. I didn't poison nobody. I didn't everybody picks on me. Everybody makes eyes at me like they're going to eat me. Why do they make eyes like that. I tell the truth.

Anything I did I did to myself, nobody else. She was incarcerated at the Illinois State Penitentiary at Juliet, with one stipulation. It said that while Tilly enjoyed the few food served to her in prison, the judge declared that she never be allowed to cook for her fellow inmates. After thirteen years of incarceration, she died on November twentieth,

nineteen thirty six. So Tilly clearly does seem to have had a certain detachment and a callousness about the crime she was found guilty of, and that cannot have helped her case. But we also can't disregard another significant influence in the outcome of her trial, which we briefly touched on. Now, you might hope something like physical appearance wouldn't matter today in the courtroom as it clearly did in Tillie's day. You might surprise to hear that the judge and jury

can still be swayed by a pretty face. What we know from study upon study, is that most people, even without being conscious of it, consider physically attractive adults to be healthier, more intelligent, and to have better personalities than those who we are not considered as esthetically pleasing. In fact, in economics, there's a phenomenon known as the beauty premium, and on the opposite side of the spectrum there's what's called the ugliness penalty. But that's just not limited to economics,

it's just how humans work with each other. In recent years, studies have also found that as humans, we generally consider attractive people in our society to just be better people, whether that's in the workplace, at school, in relationships, or in the courtroom where you would hope and expect to find impartiality. Studies in the last few decades have found that juries tend to be biased in the favor of

good looking defendants. This can mean people considered to be attractive or not only found guilty less often, but that they also receive less severe sentences when they are found guilty. Unattractive however you define it, defendants, on the other hand, were more likely to be served with longer and harsher sentences in average of twenty two months longer in prison,

and that's even today. So while Tilly we could never paint as a good guy in any of this, she definitely still was also a victim of this kind of weird bias that people won't even acknowledge that they have. Right. We feel that we're above it now, but we're not. We're clearly not. No. And the thing is, it's one of those things that's insidious, right like we all have it.

We all have these biases. So you can't presume that, in recognizing that they exist, that you have overcome your own because it's hardwired almost in some ways, it's not really hardwired. You can relearn it, but it takes an awful lot of conscious effort, absolutely, and a constant conscious effort probably for the rest of your life. You're always practicing it. Yes, But in less downer talk, Hey, Maria, it's my favorite time of the show, cocktail hour. Yes, indeed,

what's your Poison? Our time where we'd come up with a little something, something that will relate to the show in a fun way. And since we've been talking about Tillie and since she was a Polish immigrant, I wanted to do something in honor of her Polish heritage. So I squirreled around on the Internet for a while because I couldn't come up with anything on my own, and I discovered this recipe. It's called a few different things.

The name that I enjoy is Polish Kiss. And what this is is Zubrowka vodka, which is a bison grass vodka. Did you say bison grass vodka? I did. That's interesting. Yeah, I don't know if it's the grass that bison prefer, like fine bison everywhere. I don't swear by this grass. It's just I don't know. It has a blade of grass in the bottle. I also came across this drink

called a Frisky Bison aka the Polish Kiss. So clearly so the Polish Kiss is The version that I found was one point five ounces of this bice and grass vodka and then five ounces of apple juice. And the way it was touted when I read about it was that it tastes just like apple pie. And does it? It does not, at least not the version I made. Now, let me back up the truck for a minute, because I don't want to blame the recipe maker. I but

it's delicious, it's just not like apple pie. I think probably if you are making it with normal apple juice from the store, it probably does start to taste like apple pie. But I bought organic, unsweetened hippie apple juice to go with the vodka. I totally so what happened is that it tastes like you have just picked a fresh apple off of a tree and taken a bite of it. Because that vodka has that grassy flavor that makes it feel like a fresh plant based item. And

it's absolutely beautiful. It's very crisp, sounds delicious. It's like it's a summer day cocktail. For sure. It was very delightful. I could see that she would probably drink that while she was waiting for her husband to die, like while she was knitting her hat. She's like, Oh, I just something refreshing to drink. While I will say this, I will say this, that cocktail vibes to me a little too fancy for her. I picture her as like a

bear drink. It does seem a little fancy. And remember Chicago in the twenties, Probably not like I want fancy imported vodka. I doubt I would like the imported bison grass vodka from my homeland. Okay, probably didn't come up much, I guess though, And I guess now that is this week's What's Your Poison? And thank you for joining us again on Criminalia. If you would like to subscribe to the podcast, we would like you to do that. As well, and you can do that on the iHeartRadio app, at

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