Trial and Error

I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. I would call him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

get your podcasts. Hi, it's Elvis Duran on my new podcast, Thinking out Loud with Elvis Duran. I'll be bringing you candid and maybe sometimes a little crazy interviews with people from all walks of life. We'll touch on subjects that you just can't talk about on the radio, like life, love, success, failure, or whatever else comes to mind. But all jacked up because after being in this business for as long as I have, I want to get to the bottom of

what makes people tick. And listen to my new podcast, Thinking out Loud on the iHeartRadio, Apple, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So how does the half American, half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans. There's absolutely no journalism experience, right the biggest story of the eighties, That's what journalista is all about. I'm a woman, wife beater or T shirt, not wearing a brawl curses like a sailor. I got balls bigger than any man. Dan Rathie used

to call me his secret weapon. Listen to Journalist to every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. George Wagner the Fourth was trying to keep a testimony of family members who have already confessed out of his trial. His lawyers argued Tuesday that his brother Jake and his mother Angela should not be allowed to testify against him. Defense lawyer John Parker argued

that such an agreement violates due process. In the end Circuit Court Judge Randy Deering ruled against the defense motion, meaning that both Jake and Angela can testify and that their confessions can be used in court. Welcome to the Pike and Massacre, a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode six, Trial and Error. I'm Courtney, I'm Shong, a television producer. Are at kat Studios with Stephanie Lydecker

and Jeff Shane. We're breaking down the court proceedings against the Wagners as they currently stand, as well as looking into information on the courtroom players. The test is, can you get twelve people from Pike County that can be fair and impartial and give that mister Wagner, give the state of Ohio fair trial. On January nineteenth, twenty twenty two, George Wagner's attorneys filed emotion for a change of venue. They basically outline the reasons why they believe a fair

and impartial jury cannot be seated in Pike County. They say they will be providing the court with evidence of this just prejudicial negative pre trial publicity. I mean there are people who are scared as Wagners too, So you may find people who are like, I am not doing this. Death penalty cases are hard, and I think they're meant to be hard, to be honest, because there's a lot at stake in Ohio. Just knowing about it, or being present, or driving the getaway car or being a part of

this conspiracy in Ohio, you're just as guilty, George. The forst case is set to go to trial, and that is even if they can find a jury in time, because in Ohio, when you're selecting a jury, you have to pick a jury in the venue in which the crime happened. As a reminder, at this point, the Wagner family,

one seemingly tight knit, are fully unraveling. Jake Wagner was the first Domino to fall, pleading guilty to murdering five of the a Rodents in exchange for testifying against his family matriarch Angelo Wagner folded next, pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit aggravated murder and other charges as part of her plea deal. Here's reporter Anette Levy. Angelo Wagner pleaded guilty. She admitted to her role in the planning of these homicides,

and she could get out after serving thirty years. That's not a given, but she's eligible for release after serving thirty years. She admitted to basically helping plan all of this and carry it out. That she did not go to the scenes of the murders that night. That leaves two remaining suspects, father Billy Wagner and his thirty year old son George Wagner, both have pled not guilty and are awaiting trials. In some of these hearings all of

four defendants. Each defendant was made an offer by the state to cooperate, so Jake and Angela took that offer, and it appears that George the fourth and Billy did not. So that's kind of where we are right now. Antonette theorizes that there's little chance for a plea deal for George and his father at this stage, after four years of steadfastly denying any involvement in the slayings. I would think the only incentive for either one of them to plead would be to go to the state and say Okay,

I'll plead guilty. Just take the death kind of the off the table. I don't see why the state would offer them any reduced time, especially if you've got two other family members who are willing to testify against them. Jake pleaded guilty and he's going to present for the rest of his life. The only way he's leaving there is in a box, and he knows that. So there would be no reason that the state, in my opinion,

would make any other offer to Billy or George. The State of Ohio was represented by prousecuting Attorney Robert johnk also by special prosecuting a Journey to Angela Kaneppa and JIW. Kaneppa has been a special prosecutor on this case. From the outset. We've heard a lot from a Jaw Kaneppa in the courtroom this season, but didn't know much about her. Here's former prosecutor Anne Flanagan, followed by Stephanie and Jeff

well If. She seems very calm, and it's a nerve racking experience because there's so much you have to stay on top of, and it seems like they're depending on her quite a bit. But she doesn't seem rattled by it. She seems very self possessed and focused. And I think in my mind when I've handled cases and I often had children as victims or others, I know that I am working fighting for that victim and for that family, and that helps me put it aside any of my

own nervousness or edginess. Not that it won't be there, but it helps me put it in the right place. So here's what we know about Angie Kaneppa. She's the special prosecutor. We know that she studied undergrad at Bowling Green State University. She also went to law school at Ohio State. Started practicing law in nineteen ninety, and she worked for the Franklin County Prosecutor's Office in Columbus for over twenty years before going to the Ohio Attorney General's

Office in twenty thirteen. In May of twenty twenty, she raised eyebrows when she resigned from the Attorney General's office with a one sentence letter that read, effective June twentieth, twenty twenty, I hereby resign my position as Section Chiefs within the Special Prosecution Section of the Ohio Attorney General's Office. Now when asked for a comment about the sudden and sort of kurt departure, a spokesperson for the office referred

the press back to Kneppa. That would, just to me imply that they didn't want to deal with it, and they were washing their hands clean of her and her relationship with the office. That's interesting that she resigned mid trial. You know, they were in the thick of it in June of twenty twenty, and these trials were ongoing and just really about to heat up. So for her to to be heart and then come back as a special prosecutor is interesting. I mean when it happened, people and

pikedon were like, are the trials falling apart? Is everything folding? Is this going away? It brought a lot of uncertainty to the case, at least for the public. However, it couldn't have been all bad blood because just a few weeks after this resignation, Kneppa was brought back on the case as a special prosecutor at the rate of sixty

five dollars an hour. That's actually around double the average of a prosecutors salary in Ohio, who usually make around thirty three dollars an hour, and to sort of add perspective to that. You know, defense attorneys can make six hundred dollars an hour, if not more sometimes so to work for the state as an attorney, you're definitely not in it for the money. Each Wagner trial was expected

to cost a million dollars for the state. That's actually a bit lower than the national average, which is about one point three million per case. In talking to a lot of Piked and locals, people in Pike County particularly are kind of frustrated and fed up with how long these cases are taking because they feel that it's taxpayer dollars that are being spent. You've got to keep in mind, though, this is for capital murder trials. At one point, those

do take time. The wheels of justice sometimes can move slowly, and perhaps for good reason. Rob Junk is an important figure in Pike County and plays a very large role in the prosecution of the four Wagners. At age fifty five, Rob Junk has been practicing law since nineteen ninety one, after completing his undergrad at Case Western Reserve University. He also went to law school at Cincinnati College of Law.

He's been prosecuting attorney in Pike County since being elected in nineteen ninety six, and most recently, he actually ran to become the Pike County Commons Plea judge, an election that he won, and he's due to actually take office in twenty twenty three at some point. It's pretty unclear at the moment how this shift in his position will affect the Wagner cases, but as part of his campaign he vowed to fairly and impartially enforce and apply the law.

So Aside from working the routing cases and winning elections, Junk is also involved in a pretty public feud with former Pike County Ship of Charles Reader, who we all know has come under some scrutiny for illegal activities that he's partaken in. It all started in November twenty eighteen, when there was an anonymous complaint filed against Reader, just days before the Wagoners were arrested. The complaint read Reader just does whatever he wants and no one ever calls

him on it. We are scared to death of him. He is unstable and threatens people. In May of twenty nineteen, Junk asked Reader to step down from any criminal investigations. Reader fired back in a public and sunse deleted Facebook post that read put your seatbelt on, buddy. No one else may stand up to you and your crooked as connections, but I will so help me God. At one point, reader wrote another post saying it's past time to clean

the junk out of Pike County. Rob Junk responded also on Facebook, surmising that the request to recuse himself from investigations caused the outburst. He wrote again on Facebook, apparently makes me a serpent hiding in the shadows because I and my office are following the law. So these are

two publicly elected officials fighting on Facebook. It's a pretty big deal to have a very public dispute like this between the prosecutor and also the sheriff, who was in office when these murders happened and is currently doing time for allegedly taking bribes. It could be seen as a very messy feud being played out publicly. While George Wagner's defense team staunchly defends his innocence, the prosecution's theory is that George had his hand in the murders as much

as anyone else. Veteran Ohio prosecutor and Flanagan elaborates on this. When you hear these people bolstering each other and actually sharing ideas and dynamics. They're just as much a part of all that ended up happening as the person who actually pulled the trigger. And I know that, and I think jurors know that, and people know that, But will they really hold them accountable. We know that people in

a mob act differently than people individually. If people in that mob step back and don't participate and step away from it, it may not happen. And what a difference that would have made in the lives of the Rodents. Jake and his testimony said his brother was at the crime scene but didn't shoot anyone. Here's pretty, Sir, Chris Graves. The information she's referencing is taken directly from Motion eighty. Jake's own conduct and the murders has been corroborated by

his disclosure murder weapons. It is also true that the truck allegedly used by Jake and Billy in the murders has been recovered as a result of his proffer, but Jake has stated clearly that George did not shoot new One did not fire a shot was not supposed to go with Jake and Billy on the murder spree and only went as a last second to protect Jake from Billy, who was thought he might kill Jake at the end of the series of accredated murders, presumably to get rid

of a witness. In the state of Ohio, planning and executing a murder is still murder even if you don't pull the trigger. There's also evidence that George bought the truck used the night of the murder. George Wagner's child has said for August twenty ninth his father, Billy Wagner's child will be later this year, and as often happens in murder trials, George's defense team has followed the flurry of motions to suppress evidence and expert testimony to stymy

the prosecution's case. Defendish Motion sixty five, which is entitled motion to compel production of other acts evidence pursuant to Evidence Rule four or four B, and then Defendish Numbers seventy seven. Pre trial motions on both sides, especially in a murder case, are routine. The presiding judge holds initial hearings to see whether certain evidence should be allowed in front of a jury, and in this case, where the trial should even happen today my second twenty twenty two,

and this is like hearing. We'd have a hearing schedule on motions today. The defendant was present in court because those attorneys John Patrick Parker and Richard M. Nash. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff on what we know about George Wagner the fourth defense team. According to our research, it's actually

not that common to have more than one criminal defense lawyer. However, when you're being charged with a crime as severe as George's, having more than one lawyer actually might be pretty helpful in the sense that they have different areas of focus, or that they're able to work different hours and thus get more work done. George Wagner's defense attorney is John Patrick Parker. He's been practicing criminal defense in Ohio for thirty three years and is based out of Cleveland. He

also attended Case Western Reserve Law School. The second attorney for George Wagner is Richard Nash, and Richard is a local lawyer based out of Portsmith. His areas of focus are criminal traffic offenses as well as post conviction dealings. At forty six years old, he was born in Oklahoma City, and attended Cleveland State University for law school and has been practicing law since two thousand and four. In our research of Richard Nash, we actually found out that a

previous client is also involved in this story. He represented none other than Michael Moran when he was facing sex trafficking charges back in twenty twenty. And remember Michael Moran represented George's grandfather and Angela's father, petty criminal Pug Carter years ago. This means that the lawyer who is currently defending George used to defend the lawyer who defended Angela's dad. It's a little complicated, but it speaks to how this

community is very much tied together. It's super interesting, by the way, even just seeing all of the players come together because they're steeped in history. We're going to take a break, will be back in a moment. Oh, I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and

he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest with your FI saw him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call him and I would say, I know you killed my sister.

I will always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation with you, and they won't lift a finger to help you. To LA, people represent vapidity, stops that like oh the best calls like oh shoot leave. As someone born and raised here, I can tell you there's much more to

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Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Best Podcast Ever with Raven and Miranda, you'll hear well the best podcast Ever. Join Raven Simone and her partner Miranda may Day as they let the wheel of words determine the topic of that week's show. Every episode will spend a wheel of random words from things like animosity to something like zodiac and whatever it lands on, that's what we're going to talk about for around an hour. Think we can do it? Well, then you've never heard

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your last nervous breakdown? Listen to the Best Podcast Ever with Raven and Miranda on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Under federal rules, the presiding Judge is termed quote the gatekeeper of what evidence will be allowed. Here's thirty year Hamilton County, Ohio Judge

Patrick tinkle Locker on the functions motion surf. You're cleaning the slate so you can have a nice clean trial when you're getting rid of all those things that Wait a minute, I don't like the color of the curtains in this room. You file motion. You don't want to bring that motion in the middle of the trial, because it's like you waited halfway through the trial, and there's no sense. In enough and in simplest forms, these are things that need to be taken care of so that

you can have a fair, clean trial. In a drug possession case, for example, the defense might ask the judge to exclude drug paraphernalia that the defense argues was attained through the legal search of the defendant's house. In a murder child such as this, emotion may seek to suppress key witnessed testimony or ballistics findings. Often motions highlight issues with the case that become the basis for an appeal down the line. One woman concerned for the defense was

the issue of venue. George. The four child was originally slated from March twentieth, twenty twenty, but in January his attorney issued emotion to change the trial venue to a different jurisdiction. Judges is obviously one of the highest profile cases in the history of this community. There were news conferences held by the Attorney General, by the local sheriff, by different members of law enforcement updating the community on

the status of the investigation. Went on for two and a half years, and this is subdue to great social media discussion in the community. And it's our point of view that a jury will not be able to be selected here. That's fair to our client, given all of this publicity, given all the notoriety of this case, we're asking the court to change venue. In essence, the defense argued that the murders were so widely followed locally that Boidier the process of finding impartial jurors was impossible in

Pike County. We don't think the court can get a fair jury, even though there are many people that probably would give it their best effort. But we don't think if people were being really honest with themselves and with the court, that they're going to be able to say that they would be able to put aside everything they know about the case, whether it's true or not true, and give George a fair trial. Mike Allen is a criminal defense attorney in Cincinnati an illegal analyst for Fox

nineteen and Cincinnati. He makes a crucial point about the essential fairness of most jurors. It's a motion for change of venue. Those motions are frequently filed in high profile cases. They're frequently filed, but it's seldom granted. However, in this case, though, because Pike County is such a small county and I don't know how many registered voters they have, they might

have a problem seating a jury. But here's the thing, and this is probably the most important part of this, and I don't think a lot of people realize it. If a potential juror who is under oath answers a judge's question, can you divorce yourselves and block out of your mind any pre trial publicity that you have heard and render a verdict based upon the evidence and the law. If that juror says, yes, your honor, then that's a

good juror. I mean, just because someone has seen or heard or read a newspaper article about it, that does not disqualify them, because if it did, probably nine of the people in Pike County would have seen or heard something about it. Retire Judge Sylvia Hendon, who's been thirty three years in the Benjam Hamilton County, two hundred miles from Piketon, has a different view of things. I think the change of venue in this case is probably going to be the most hotly debated, both before and after

the trial. Again, Pike County is a county of somewhere between twenty five and thirty thousand people. It is going to be extremely difficult, in my opinion, to find people in that county who don't know somebody involved in the case and don't have an opinion on what happened here. Again, my alan, if it were not a small county, I think it would be a no brainer that the venue would not change. But because it is such a small county with a small number of registered voters, they might

blow through all of them. But there used to be a law, and I think it's still there that if you run out of registered voters, a judge can basically send it Baillip or the cops, or you know, anybody at his discretion to just literally pull him off the street. The other thing you have to think about, and I thought about while reading this thing with respect to a change of venue. Okay, he grants a change of venue,

but to where? I mean where in the state of Ohio, in the Midwest, where could a judge send it to where there was not all this pre trial publicity. I mean, as you well know that this is a case of immense public curiosity and people are going to read about it and watch things on TV and read the newspaper. It's just like, okay, we'll change the venue, but where and to what end. In addition to the venue challenge, An Flanagan says, a lot of potential tourists will simply

not want to serve on this controversial trial. We see jors that don't want to be there. They're just uncomfortable, And so what happens Sometimes you'll see one juror say I can't be fair, and you try to question why they keep you fair, and they really don't have any reason. They're just saying they can't be fair, right just or that. Well, then two tours down the road will come up with

the same thing. They learn how to get off of a journey Judge Patrick Dinklocker, famous for trying the first woman in Hamilton County for the death penalty, lays out another potential scenario of jury contamination. Okay, you said you saw the newspaper, what did you actually read? Did you see it on social media? Did you talk to your

friends about it? Did you text anybody about it? I think those are all relevant questions and questions that the attorneys will ask regarding, you know, whether or not they're going to be fair and impartial, because they can obviously say young fair and impartial. But if the lead up to that is they wrote on Facebook saying, Wow, this guy's guilty as can be, you know, and they Mittamy, well, then the judge is in a different situation. They've got

this guy, Hume. If you can't get twelve people that can put upside all the social media all or whatever the publicity they've seen and whatever, and you're right, then you change the venue. And that's something that both sides will probably bring up. On May second, twenty twenty two, Judge Randy during Torpedo the defense's motion for a new venue, ruling that George the fourth trial would remain in Pike County. The ruling cleared a path for the trial that reporter

Angeanette Leavey says will be a heated one. This is a really old courthouse. I think it's from the Civil War era. So the air conditioning is not great. So jury selection starting on July fifth? Could you get any hotter? I mean, could you kick any more uncomfortable time of the year in Ohio where it gets so muggy and gross and humid because of being in the Ohio River Valley? Could you pick up worse time to do this? No matter the weather, It's on Judge Randy Deering to oversee

this trial. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Here's what we know about Judge Randy Deering. He went to undergrad and law school at Ohio State and started practicing law back in nineteen seventy four. Judge Deering took office in two thousand and five and was reelected in twenty ten and most recently in twenty sixteen. Interestingly enough, in May of twenty fifteen, Judge Deering swore in Charles Reader as the forty first Pike County Sheriff. And Charles Reader is obviously very involved

in this story. We called the county Clerk's office, who informed us that at seventy years old, Judge Deering is now too old to officially serve as a judge, meaning that he can't run again. His time as judge will end in January or February of twenty twenty three. That being said, because the Wagner cases will likely be ongoing at that time, the Supreme Court could appoint him a retired judge over the case or cases so that he could finish them out. The trial promises to be a

long one. There are some three hundred and fifty witnesses. Imagine the problem that many witnesses would have created if the venue were forced to move. George, the Fourth Attorney, has press Judge during to release and seal a pre trial copy of transcripts of all witnesses who testified before the grand jury in twenty eighteen. The prosecution of counter that the Ohio State Supreme Court already ruled the defense

is not entitled to that information. The list of witnesses is extensive, but Ann Flanagan points out that there are four suspects and eight victims. In a tangled case like this, with so many suspects witnesses at um, you have eight individuals chilled, and I don't know how many corners participated in the autopsies. I don't know if it was all one, if it was a number, but just right there, than you have a multiplied factor because all of those homicides

are part of each one of these defendants cases. And then you have all of the analysts. You have a blood witnesses, you get the shoe print witnesses, you have custodians. Who's the custodian of the Walmart shoe department, I mean? And the receipt how did they get the bookkeeping records

of the receipt and the video authentication from Walmart? So theoretically you could have three witnesses from Walmart just to say, yes, this is the receipt, we keep it in the ordinary course of business, and somebody who does the same thing for video, and somebody that handles the shoe department and can say, yes, we keep athletic work shoes or whatever. And a may hearing. As George the fourth defense team continued to hurl motions at the bench. George Wagner bearded

and Balding began to look defeated. It's worth noting that the defendants do not appear in court and shackles. This is done so they can avoid the appearance of guilt. Billy and George, you know, all of them. Actually, anytime they've appeared in court, Pike County bought a stun best. It's like this thing that they wear under their clothes so that if they get out a line or try to escape, or they grab a pen and try to

stab somebody or whatever. Literally, the deputies can push a button and it sends I think eighty thousand volts into their bodies. We have to remember that all this legal wrangling is particularly intense because George Wagner is facing the death penalty. As a reminder, Jake Wagner's pleadale takes the death sentence off the table for him and his family members, but only if he testifies to the satisfaction of the prosecution.

The jury must carefully consider the possibility that just because George is Jake's brother and Angela and Billy's son, it does not necessarily mean he pulled the trigger that night in April twenty sixteen, and if he didn't actually shoot anyone, should he faith lethal injection. Here's George Wagner's defense team. What is really important here is that the court talks about a basic premise of our criminal justice system is as follows, Our law punishes people for what they do

and not who they are. And why is it important in this case? The reason it's important in this case is that the court is aware the state is arguing that George is part of a conspiracy and a criminal enterprise and participate in the aggravated murders and the other twenty two counts. And a large part of the state's argument, we anticipate, is he's a Wagner and this is how

the Wagners operate there. Now, there certainly is a conspiracy charge, we understand that, and there's specific law with respect to conspiracy, but it doesn't necessarily apply to everything. So we think it's important that the court keep this basic premise of our justice system in mind and at the appropriate time and struck the jury concerning that. And the event of a guilty verdict for George Wagner, there's the possibility that

the death penalty will still be on the table. Here's Ann Flanagan and Judge Dinker Locker to break down what happens next. And I gotta be careful with what I say, because you're supposed to treat the guy who breaks a window and goes into drug store the same as you do a death penalty person. But the practicality of it is that you know you're dealing with the most serious

of cases. You know you have to do everything you can to try to get it right because there's a life on the line, and at least for some of us, life is very very very very important. At this point, we would say there would be two phases, and so the first phase is the liability or trying to determine did the state in fact prove that he was a complete sitter in these homicides as to George the fourth And then the second phase would be a weighing process

for the jury. It's called a mitigation hearing. It is unique and that this is the one time where you have jurors essentially participate in the sentencing decisions. Typically, for all other crimes, the judge will make the decision on sentencing within the guidelines of our legislature. However, in the capital case, the jury will be part of a weighing process. They are still not sentencing, but they are going to

give a recommendation to the judge. Should he have an opportunity at parole, should he have the highest number of years before that opportunity at parole comes up. Should he have no chance at parole just a life sentence, or should be in fact be exposed to execution that definitely. Ultimately, the jury can be swapped for a three judge panel the defending can they have a three judge panel. Then

the three judge panel tries the case. Okay, they render a verdict this whether or not the person is guilty or not, and then they sentence okay, which you know, can be the death penalty, can be life without parole, life after twenty or thirty or whatever. The judges can do that, but most times it's a jury trial, so the trial is conducted in front of the jury because obviously you don't get to the death penalty phase until

you make a determination. If the guy's guilty of what he's charged with, and for example, I mean he's charged with aggravated murder with what they call death specs, there are further hearings to be had before the defendant's fade is sealed. Eventually, the case may head to the highest court in the State of Ohio. But if the jury does go ahead and signs off and makes a recommendation that they believe the death penalty is appropriate, then it goes to the judge to make a decision. The judge

has another hearing with the defendant participating, counsel participating. You know, a lot of different things go into it. Then the judge makes a decision. If the judge says the death penalty is warranted in the case, then the judge signs off on that. The next step then is to go to the Ohio Supreme Court, and then the Ohio Supreme Court reviews the whole record, reviews everything they can review

about the case. Whatever defense counsel brings up, it's something that they believe should be a reason to throw out the death penalty, or throughout the conviction, or throughout the whole case. At every phase, the onus is always on the honorable person on the bench to rule as fairly as possible. I think you truly, truly, truly have to want to be fair and treat everybody fairly. You truly have to seek justice. Everybody's got a different definition of justice.

I understand that, But for me, you want to be able to walk off that bench and say to yourself, I did the best I could. I try to be fair to everybody. When I think about a really good judge, I think about somebody who is willing to put in the time to read everything there is to read, maybe most importantly, to listen to everything that's being presented. And I think probably paramount is to keep an open mind

until the end of the case. Now that's a hard thing to do because everybody brings to the bench their own personal experiences. But it is just critically important that you don't come in there with your mind made up. You do a disservice to your oath if you do that. But an excellent judge needs a jury capable of looking

at the case squarely. I think it's real important. And I've told over the years a number of attorneys that we're not here trying to get twelve people that are going to go for you, and we're not here for the other side getting twelve people. You guys are supposed to be working to get a fair and impartial jury. That's your job. Now that's easy for me to say. For the prosecution, for example, all it takes is one person is they've got one person that you know, isn't know.

I really don't like the death penalty. I don't think it's a good thing. I really don't want to do it. I mean that sounds like kind of a weak juror for the prosecution. I think you'd agree. Okay, so they maybe have to use a peremptory to get rid of that person. Let's stop here for another break. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.

He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't. He choked and to the point she went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to hey for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw

him right now, i'd spit on him. I would call him and I would say, I know you killed my sister, I will always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Best Podcast Ever with Raven and Miranda, you'll hear well the Best podcast Ever. Join Raven Simone and her partner Miranda may Day as they let the Wheel of Words determine the

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and then the conversation will begin. Also, we're gonna have a ton of amazing guests because you don't want to just hear us too all the time. Do yes, you do? And somehow We're going to start with something like spider and end with well, when was your last nervous breakdown? Listen to the Best Podcast Ever with Raven and Miranda on the iHeartRadio app apples, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Everybody, we know there are a ton of podcasts out there. Well, we have one we would love

for you to check out. It is called The pen Pals Podcast with Daniel Van Kirk and Rory Scoville. We are both stand up comedians where actors were writers, but now most of all, we are your pen pals. Every single episode we get two letters that we read from our listeners, our new pen pals. It can be about anything going on in their life, and sometimes we're also joined by guests like Will Ferrell. I'm gonna bring you up in front of the group. I'm gonna punch you

as hard as I can in the stomach. Rose Burn, Well, this is West Hollywood. We keep it clean. Jodpat is that considered? Brian, I'm just showing you that my mind is quick, if not that funny. And Mandy Moore. We're all crossing the line together. Listen to The pen Pals Podcast on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network, on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts, and sirely your new pen pals. Daniel Van Kirk and Rory Scoboy. How Rude Tanta Rito's is the Full House

rewatch podcast you've been waiting for. Each week, get together with iconic characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, also known as actresses Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as they team up to relive every episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show. We spent our entire childhoods on a little show called Full House, playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling, and now thirty five years later,

it's our biggest adventure yet. Get ready for Jody and Andrea to tell all as they take an in depth book back at life in and around the Tanner Home from the very very beginning. So if you think you know everything there is to know about Full House, how Rude, We'll be reliving every moment with you, and we'll be joined by our Full House family, including all your favorites from one hundred and ninety two episodes. We'll reveal the hidden treasures you may have missed within the show, and

we'll take a trip down memory lane together. Listen to How Rude Tantartos on the iHeartRadio Appicable podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. As Judge Hendon points out, the whole legal procedure, while carefully architected to bring justice and closure to families, can do nothing to restore what's been lost.

If there is a tragedy greater than the tragedy that unfolded in this case, it has to be the fact that this child is now without a mother and a father in a set of circumstances that some day shall be old enough to understand. It's tragic beyond description. Reflecting on her time as prosecutor, and Flannagan comments on the

distinct feeling of loss in the courtroom. That's one of the things I don't miss, And I didn't know how much I didn't miss until I started reviewing all of this, and I thought, oh my gosh, it just springs back so much and how hard the attorneys for both sides are hooking to bring fair justice to their sides, but

because they're good advocates and they do care. I think it's just a tremendously intense experience, and one can only imagine how it comes across to the families who are sitting there on the personal side of appearing about the loss of someone and not really interested in the technology behind shoeprints. Who are blood spatter or this or that. They just start feeling that someone they loved just gone.

More on that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other hit series Crazy and Love. New episodes there every Tuesday wherever you get at your podcasts. For more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, Alan Wider and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis, Music by Jared Aston. The Pikes and Massacre is a

production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends. It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them one of the spot there in bout on paper he was perfect, but in reality,

this guy a workout. He shouted to the point she went unconscious. I would call him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. You can listen to the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Elvis Duran on my new podcast, Thinking out Loud. With Elvis Duran, I'll be bringing you candid and maybe sometimes a little crazy

interviews with people from all walks of life. We'll touch on subjects that you just can't talk about on the radio, like life, love, success, failure, or whatever else comes to mind, but all jacked up because after being in this business for as long as I have, I want to get to the bottom of what makes people tick. And listen to my new podcast, Thinking out Loud on the iHeartRadio, Apple,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, how does the half American, half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans with absolutely no journalism experience right the biggest story of the eighties. That's what journalist is all about. I'm a woman, life beat tis not wearing a brawl, curses like a sailor. I got balls, bigger than any man. Dan Rather used to call me his secret weapon. Listen to Journalist to every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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