George Wagner’s Final Day on the Stand

I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. I would call him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story of George Ramus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition dramas is the biggest man in the business, but George Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

wherever you get your podcasts. So she's lying. I'm not saying she lives, says she's mistaken, but everybody else's lying. I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lyon about that night. Angela Knappa. If you listen to A G. Hammers and I think if I'm sitting there as a juror if they paid as close attention to this trial as I have, that's a red flag. What happens to you if you come in here and admit that you and your brother and your father slaughtered perfectly innocent people

who lay asleep in their beds. Do you want to hear answer? Well, I feel we should happen to anybody that would do that. I want to know what happens to you if you come in here and admit that what should happen to anybody is they should have death given to them. This is the Pipes and Masker returned to Pike County season four, episode twenty three, George Wagner's final day on the stand. M Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane.

It's important to note that Orge Wagner the fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges after answering more than seven hours worth of questions from his own lawyer the day before, George wagner surprising testimony continues for a second day. Wagner continued defending himself, denying any involvement in the murders. He insisted he took no part in planning or covering

up the brutal murders. But on a second day of testimony, George Wagner faced a far more aggressive line of questioning from prosecutor Auntiwa Kineppa. She questioned his credibility, honesty, and the multiple inconsistencies from previous statements George Wagner gave to investigators. George Wagner back on the stand for a second day. He is on trial for murder in the Pike County

massacre that happened in twenty sixteen. Wearing a light blue collared dress shirt, a dark tie, and black vest, George Wagner the fourth returned to the stand on the forty third day of his child defense attorney John Parker started the morning by asking George Wagner about his use of Facebook. Now George use Facebook on and off. Wagner said he occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell items like truck parts on its marketplace app, and to talk to friends,

including Frankie Rodin. With respect of Facebook, did you ever know of your mother to use your account? Not to my knowledge. Did you ever know whether your mother obtained a password? Not to my knowledge. However, George testified his mother was constantly trying to access as social media passwords. Did you ever have an issue with your mother trying to access your fault her? Not really, I'm not gonna say accessing, but constantly looking over my shoulder trying to

get password to it. I changed my password like daily because she would try and figure out what my password was. How do you know that she was always looking over my shoulder when I put my password in? Is that before the murders a quarterback? Is I've had an iPhone? George also said he was aware of the gofund me page his brother Jake created, but also that he had nothing to do with it. Defense attorney John Parker then shifted the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and

now I viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at the Montana border in twenty seventeen, George Wagner said he didn't know if his shrug was bugged and his phone was tapped, but he said he assumed they were during that time frame. What was your mindset, so to speak, about the investigation and whether your family was guilty or not guilty? What was your mindset? Though? I believe that they were just trying to frame my mom and my brother and my family for the fact that they didn't

have anybody else to look at. Why did you think that? Because I was raised to believe it all law enforcement was crooked, and I thought they just wanted to close the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong. The fear of law enforcement also led George to think his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant.

From the way I understood it was that BC I would stoop to any level to get information about my family, and that they would try and send a woman in there to get close to me or my brother and get information. Does that explain some of the conversations we heard on the recordings between you and your brother about that. Yes, because she didn't know my brother at all and married him within like three months, and I just didn't trust that, not with everything that our family was being accused of.

George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he did not trust her. Why not multiple different reasons. Reason one, when she first broke up my brother and then got back with him, I just thought it was weird that somebody who met a complete stranger would want to be with somebody who was accused of what we were being

accused of. All right, Were there other reason? Yes? The second reason was she had come up with a story about her childhood that she and her brothers and her mother was a part of some cult for some church in Texas, and I had a guess the church ended up selling kids the sex slavery or something like that. All right, was there any other The other one was I came home from work one week and my son said that Bessett told him that you shoot bad people

with a or fifteenth. George Wagner said he told his family he didn't want Elizabeth living with them after they returned to Ohio. I just didn't feel my son was safe around her. Did you want to kill her? No? What did you want? I just wanted her to move out of the house. Wanting to drive home the point that George Wagner was a loving and carrying uncle. Attorney John Parker asked George about his nickname for his niece. George said that when Jake and Hannah's daughter was a

bag maybe he began to playfully call her SUTs. She was playing one day in a bucket full of water that she was sitting in it was Fiel full of soap, and so you gave her the nickname Suggs. Yes. After Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to Jake about his daughter. During those conversations, did you know that he had killed her. Now, what was his demeanor when you brought up sucks? Depends on what I was going on, But usually it turned into a fight in an argument

about what. Anytime I would save it made a face like Hannah, or looked like Hannah, or was acting like Hannah, he would throw a fit. You loved your son quite obviously, right, Yes? Did you love sucks? Yes? Did you kill these people for her? Now? Would you ever do that? Now? Here's Jeff and Stephanie. Do you think, steph that this testimony humanizess George Wigner and anyway? I mean, look, even if

it does humanize him, both things can be true. I think if we've learned anything just in the process of making this podcast and following it for as long as we have, it's just that certain people can be a lot of things at the same time. So on the one hand, yes, maybe this does make him seem more compassionate, and on the other he's being accused of commiserating to murder of a people that, according to this compassionate testimony, he knew very well. And both things may be true.

This is a good example of the defense adding a rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained. It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd and it could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which, as we know, is the prosecution's goal to poke holes in the defense's story because all they have to do is just term

one juror in favor of George. I would imagine too, if in fact, he knew what hot water he and his family were in at that time. The idea of adding a new person just seems nuts. On the one hand, it shows that Jake wanted to marry Elizabeth before they return to piked In. And on the other side of it, why would you add somebody else to the equation that has to keep your story straight? And if George presents himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or is adding context

to the dynamics, one person can decide his fate. Well, he loved his niece, George said he and Jake also fought and disagreed about how to raise their children. Here again, defense attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner the fourth did you and your brother have the same ideas on how to raise your respective children. No can fire a long shot? Can you explain? And my brother wanted to basically keep chained up in the house for her entire

life until she graduated higher college. What was your idea of how to raise it? My idea of it was, I guess you could see a spoiled him. What was I didn't never tell him know whatever he wanted, I got it for him, and I got a lot of hell over that. And my main plan was that eventually when he was older. All kids are going to be kids, regardless of what you say or do. They're going to

make their own mistakes. I've made mine, everybody I knows made theirs, and they're going to do it anywhere, whether you tell them about too or whether you tell them

to do what, they're going to do it. So my way of fixing that was I was just going to end up building like a great big lake one day on whatever piece of property I bought, and have its own cabin on it from time he turned as teenager, so when he was out drinking and party in which he's going to do all kids do it, that he would be there and I wouldn't worry about running up and down the roads instead of him being running everywhere like I did. Did you discuss this with your brother? Yeah?

Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on raising yes or yes? Is that a source of disagreement between you and you a massive, well all over objection. Yes, it was a massive disagreement. Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children, both Jake and George agreed on one thing that was at their mother, Angela Wagner, should have custody of their kids should anything happen to them. George said he remembers signing the back dated custody documents that Angela prepared. He

also claims he did so without looking at them. I came home one day and I was going to my room, changed clothes and go back out to the door, and my mom said that she was filling one out for my brother and asked if I wanted one that was more legit than the handwritten when I had, And I told her if she wanted it, she had like ten minutes to get it, and I had to get and I signed my name and walked down. Okay, break that down a little bit, right, Do you remember putting that

hook sometime early twenty sixteen. All right, and the document that you signed, had it been completed? Was it blink? What did you know about it? Was just like a printed out for him? Did you read it? No? I just signed my name to it. And what did you do after you sign your name? I walked out the front door and left again. And what was your understanding of this document? You wouldn't you just signed? You were

coming at it out and change. I just assumed she was making another one that was more legitimate looking than my handwritten one. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. So the defense has been trying to show George as a caring, attentive, smart with it person and father. But the whole explanation that he just signed these customer documents on a whim

to me undercuts the caring, an attentive father image. It reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care, that he would just sign something without thinking about it or putting any thought into it. His a defense attorney attempts to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing undercuts what the defense has been trying to do, which

is a completely fair point. I would say in the totality of what he's been saying in his testimony so far, they're trying to make him stand alone and stand apart from his other family members. It also shows that he

was pretty conditioned to do whatever his mother said. Kind Of my takeaway from what the story is they're telling is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing with his mother and that his family was always doing some kind of a scam or a con and that he just looked the other ways or threw his hands up and didn't really think much of it. Well, the defense

can't have it both ways. They can't say on the one hand that he is carrying a ton to father who thinks everything through and it is independent of his family, but then also just signs a document because his mom tells him to and he trusts her. Those are conflicting ideas that I think the jury will see through. I testified the day before that he had wanted to distance himself from his family's criminal activities. George admitted to chopping up cars for insurance money. Did you ever make money

other than driving trucks multiple different ways? Did you ever cut up trucks? Yes? Explain that my grandfather, my mom's father, would have people come by that would have a diesel Dodge truck or a diesel chavier or whatever contruct really but it. They would owe on the truck and they would want out from under it. So I'd give them five hundred to two thousand dollars and they'd give me the truck and give me a week to chop with up and sell it. And then they reported stolen and

turned in on the insurance company. And so explain how that works as far as trapping up, and so you just take it apart, piece by piece, and then you sell a part different parts of different people. And you did that when you live Don Jeters. Yes, you know approximately how many trucks. Believe five later, defense attorney John Parker pivoted to address the damaging BCI recordings. George Wagner tried to counter the prosecution's descriptions of some of the

most incriminating comments. Thinking back on these recordings that we listened to, do you remember saying on the recordings anything about your mother and whether she should get an attorney or not. Do you remember any of that? Yes, The conversations that I believe you're talking about is that if all of us were arrested, that my mother should get the best one. And did you say that? Yes? Why did you say that? Because my mom's the one that watched the kids five days a week while we were

going anyway. They were used to being with her for five days a week, and I feared it would be easier on the children. What were you thinking? I was just going under what what? Basically? I understood from the attorneys that if we got arrested that it could take six months, It could take two years to get to a trial and be able to work things out. Do you remember on some of the recordings we listened to

your mother saying something about being framed? Yes, what do you My mom and brother has said that since the beginning. That's why I believe that we were being framed, because they said that they were twisting everything that my mom and brother had on their phones and laptops, and they were trying to frame us. And was that your mindset

during these conversations. Yes, After listening to these recordings that we heard in court, how do you feel about what Jake was saying and what you now know he did? I now know that he was just lying through his teeth to me. What about your mother? The same? Thanks you just lying to me from the beginning. Did you ever tell your mother referencing these recordings, did you ever tell your mother you would take the blame for these murders? No? I did not. So George has testified that he didn't

trust his mother. We know this. He also didn't trust his brother, and he knew he was being raised frankly by career criminals, and in his opinion, his brother was very selfish and manipulative. And at this point, whether this is before the murders or even after the murders, George was supposed to be on the straight and narrow. George likes to claim that he knew the whole time his

family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet, according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses to believe their story about what happened in and around the road in Massacre. It just doesn't line up about the explanation George Gabe earlier. He knows their liars, yet accepts their statements about the murders. These are the kinds of things that the prosecution is definitely noticing, and they're definitely going to bring up a cross because they want

to really highlight them for the jury. Attorney John Parker then focused on one of the most potentially damaging recordings. In it, George Wagner threatened BCA and to get her Ryan Schierer. George testified that it was not a real threat, but a comment made out of frustration and anger. One of the conversations West listened to in both your brother and your mother and you were kind of in the background. Your mother said something about their framing us. You remember that, Yeah,

and that she would take the death. Yeah, you remember that. Yeah, at that time, did you know your mom and brother were involved in these murders or committed the murders. No, I think it was in that same conversation, Jake says he will get out one way or another. Do you remember that, Yeah, at that time, did you know he had killed these people? No? I was on the assumption that he was referring to if he got framed and

was wrongfully convicted. And then your voice is in the background and you say it ain't gonna have the electric chair or words to that. Yeah, you remember that. What did you mean by that? I just get irritated when people were messing with my family and stuff, especially when I'm out for five days with no sleep and a massive amounts of caffeine and makes your irritable. Did you know at that point that your mom and brother were actually guilty than even are you guilty of any of

these events? No? On that same recording or conversation, remember hearing your boys say I want to kill Ryan? Yes, I said that. What did you mean by that? Explain context? It was more of line like when you were angry somebody, you say stupid stuff like that, don't mean that you mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at one point or another. There was another comment you made to your brother during one of these full calls about you telling people the truth is the reason we're in

this mess. You remember that? Can you explain it? In the beginning, I believe that the finger was pointed at my family because my brother pissed off the manlies, which he does to almost everybody he's around. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. They say history is written by the victors, but you know what they've left out a hell of a lot of juicy stuff date Abe Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple was sitting right next to him when he

was shot? It haunted the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah, we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again. Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the telephone and then claimed it as his own. For every pivotal moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's usually way more interesting than the

big story. From mysterious murders to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the fascinating lives of those just outside the limelight, where can uncovered the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know you needed to know. Listen to the backstory with me Patty Steeles twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the

girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't. He really wasn't, he shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to

pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, I'd spit on him. I would, and I would say, I know you killed my sister. I will always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I hope nobody thinks I got this story

because I slept with the guy. So how does the half American, half Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans with absolutely no journalism experience break the biggest story of the eighties. That's what journalista is all about. I'm a woman not wearing a brawl curses like a sailor. I got balls bigger than any man, and rather used to call me his secret weapon. Pablo gave me half a pound of

cocaine with a wedding. We work hard, but we party even harder because you never knew it's the next day's battle was going to be the one that killed were up in the air, I heard three somethings. I looked at one soldier and I said, that's not a good sound. Is no? We're going, dad? And I said, what do you mean? We're going? Dad? And then we started to go. Dad. Listen to Journalista every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. Defense attorney John Parker wrapped up his questioning of George Wagner by again asking him if he had any involvement in the murders. Did you know your family was going to kill these people now before it happened? Did you now after it happened? Did you Did you ever have any conversations with your brother about it? Now? Did you ever talk to your mom about it? Now? Your dad? Now, if you had known this was going to happen, what would you do?

I don't know exactly how, but I would have stopped at one way or another. Did you love him? Yes? Did you consider Frankie a good friend? I said to me, my best friend? Looking at Wagners of a fifty three days one, this is your wedding photo. Right, Yes, you have one arm around who Tabby? You have another arm

around who loves Frankie? Here again, Jeff and Stephanie. We knew when we saw the photo from George and Tabitha's wedding a couple of years ago that it was influential and significant, but singing in court really proves that to be true. This was a big moment where both of the families got together and it highlights their relationships. We'll share it on our social media, but it's a pretty astounding photograph and it really paints a picture of how

close they were. And everybody in the photograph is either dead or accused of their murder. The statement cross Exam

Here's Lawn Crimes investigative reporter and Jeanette Levy. I was actually part of me felt kind of impressed watching him, I'm direct, because I felt that he just seemed calm and he'd obviously been prepped, that he just seemed to have answers for everything, and that that kind of made me wonder a little bit because you can't have it, you can't always have the answers for everything, but he seemed to have an answer for everything. Obviously he's been prepped,

he's had years to think about this. But at the same time, he seemed to be doing a good job on the stand. During direct the prosecution focused in on George Whiten the force honesty today on the witness stand. After hours of questioning by his own attorney, George Wagner came under intense scrutiny during the prosecution's cross examination. Prosecutor and jaw Kneppa immediately zeroed in on George's claim that he and Frankie Rodin had a close relationship. Let's go

ahead and start with Frankie. You consider him your best friend. Yeah, so in two thou and twelve you have your arm around Frankie, he's standing next to you at your wedding. Yes, And prior to the homicides, when had you ever talked to Frankie the last time beforehand? Yes, probably late December, late December of twenty fifteen. Yeah, okay, And isn't it true that you told us that you didn't even know

Hannah Hazel. I have met her one time in my life, but at the border when you were interviewed in twenty seventeen, you said you had never met her. That the last person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl named Angel, and that was before you got married in two thousand and twelve. Angel was before Chelsea. You indicated at the border that the last person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl named Angel, and that was when you still had your pulling chuck, which was

before you got married. Not that I remember. I could be wrong that, but not that I remember, Okay, Well, George Wagner admitted that he hadn't seen Frankie Rodin in months and had never met Frankie's son. He explained that he didn't have as much time for friends when he began long hall driving, also after his own son was born. However, the prosecution presented an alternative theory. So you'd never met Hannah Hazel. Usually a woman's pregnant for nine months and

Ruger was six months at the time of birth. That's at least fifteen months where you didn't know Hannah Hazel, never met her. Never matter, but Frankie was your best friend. Yes, who I consider my best friend? Who you block on Facebook? Who I did not blok on Facebook? Well, he was blocked on your Facebook. It might be, but it didn't happen for me, okay. And you did not have any Facebook conversations with Frankie either, did you? Not very many that I remember as in zero n remember okay, And

you can up a question. George's a relationship with the mother of Frankie Rodin's oldest child, who had justified earlier in the child she alleged that there was bad blood between George and Frankie. You remember Chelsea testifying, yes, okay. Is it true that you reached out to her at some point at one point in time by me and Chelsea started talking, yes, okay. And Frankie found out about that, Yes, and he was upset in the beginning, yes to explained

that there was nothing more than friends. Okay. So then Chelsea's lying when she said that that put a You guys held a grudge against each other after that and your friendship. We did not call the brothers against the other after that. Okay. So she's lying. I'm not saying she's lying, I'm saying she's mistaken. Okay. But you never met Hannah Hazel and didn't know her name. You also indicated Frankie was a fighter, Yes, that you've seen videos

of him fighting. Yes, and that you would have to go through Frankie to get to anyone in the family more unlikely. Yeah, I mean that's what you said. Yeah, okay, I don't see Frankie letting anybody mess with his family. Yeah, or Kenneth right, I don't see anybody in their family letting anybody mess with their family. And Jacanappa also attacks George Wagner's claims that he hated his own family and

wanted to escape them. She does this by referencing a conversation George had in twenty eighteen with his new girlfriend Josie, and I guess you tried, or at least it seemed yesterday that you were talking about Jake as if you hardly even liked him at which point in time, any point in time from early childhood, it wasn't that bad with him because we were just little kids. But the older we got, the worst he got, Okay, And at the last point I might get ten good days out

of a hundred with him. Maybe Okay, But you just saw that text message in twenty and eighteen to Josie. Yes, where you're saying I'm really close with my family, you're kind of warning her or making sure that she's okay with that, because you were contemplating having her come to live with you, right the house I was staying in there. Say it again now that the household staying in there. But you wanted her to come live with you. I wanted her to move down here eventually, because that's what

she was talking about. But I wasn't going to let

her move in the house with my mother. Okay, you didn't want her in the house with your mother, correct, So in July of twenty eighteen, when you were talking to your mother on the phone, when you said that you wanted your own little farm somewhere out west where I can still make a living and where me and Jake can live peacefully with you and the kids and whoever else we decide to bring, so we can have a nice, peaceful life without all of that craft and

the drama from everyone. Am I allowed to explain this? Did you say that? Yes? I said that, Okay, allowed to go into details this. Sure, it doesn't mean live in the same house. It means by a bigger farm, and he has a house on one corner. She has a house on one corner, and I've got a house on corner. Okay, kind of like what you guys were

considering doing when you moved to Missouri. Right. In a further effort to discredit George Wagner's testimony, the prosecution brought out transcripts of his interview with BCI agents at the Montana border in twenty seventeen and challenged him on the discrepancy between what he said then and what he was saying now on the witness stand. I know you talked about your mother and you said, well, you describe her to me, she is thanks, you'd better and everybody thanks.

Everything has to be done her way. I would probably say that I could put selfish in that manipulative. And again, I mean, this is new and different than what you told us at the border. Right. That's not what you said about your mother at the border. Right. Don't remember what I said at the border? Okay, Well, you weren't asked if your mom was controlling. I bet your mom is so controlling that she probably even organized the whole thing. And you said, my mom is not controlling. You were

asked your mom's not controlling? You said no at all. Do you remember saying that? Don't remember saying that? Okay, Well, is that true that she's not controlling? Correct? As a before my tenth birthday, she wasn't so bad that I can remember, but she got worse as the years went by. Okay. So in twenty seventeen, when you were asked that question and you said she's not controlling, she trying to do or not as far as actually controlling me, No, she didn't, okay,

but she tried to control me. If that answers your question, Well, I'm just trying to figure out what the truth is, considering you said one thing at the border and you said an entirely different thing yesterday today. So, despite testifying that his mother was manipulative and selfish, George tried to explain why you was willing to sign away custody of a son. You talked about these custody documents that you and your brother signed and your mother forged the signature

for hannah on correct, all in the same magical day. Correct. You obviously heard the testimony that had happened at the kitchen table in your house. It was in the kitchen. In the kitchen, okay, so you agree with that. I agree. I signed my name to mine in the kitchen and left. Okay, and you in the kittyd you just signed that. Yes, so you trust your mother. I trust my mother. There's

some parts of her I don't trust. Okay, but you signed this document saying if you were to be killed or something happened to you, she would get your child. Who else would I lead him too? I have no one else to leading to. Yeah, but it was dated twenty fifteen, and that's not when you signed those documents. I didn't know what date was on it. I signed it early sixteen. You signed it in April sometimes sixteen.

I don't know the exact date. Yeah, well, obviously sometime after April third or twenty and sixteen, because that was when it was printed off the computer. Could be. I don't know the exact date. I just know it was sixteen minutes. I didn't pay much attention to another ste and you have my signature. And Jockneppa then showed George Wagner the custody documents that he signed. She once again pressed George and why he signed them without paying attention.

You could look at that. It's the document that signed. So that is your signature, yeah, okay, And you see the date at the bottom there. Yes, And it's that consistent with your experience as far as your computer spinning out the date something is printed off the computer. I couldn't tell you on that. I don't computers that much. But this is dated March eleventh, twenty fifteen. Yes, and it clearly was not signed in March eleventh, twenty fifteen.

I signed it today. It was printed off. So I mean you realize it's forgery to back date a document, right, yes, okay, And it's forgery to sign somebody else's name to a document. Yes, I can see that, Okay, I just don't see how me signing my name is forgery. Well, it was back dated. I didn't know that the page was, from my understanding blank, from what I can remember, when I signed my name. She just signed your name to a completely blank document,

to a custody document, she said, signed my name. I signed it and walked out. But you wanted to leave your child with your mother if something was ever to happened to me, Yes, I had no one else. There was no one else to leave it to him. Again, you had lots of conversations about concerns about the handwriting that was going to be taken because it's something to a law enforcement and I was raised at law from was crooking, tries to twist everything. Well, you were raised

to commit a lot of crimes. I was not that it was right, but that's how I was raised. It took me a long time to realize that it was wrong. And when did you realize that? When I realized that my dad was wrong and it was actually hurting people, So that particular crime you realized was actually hurting people, right, the stealing of stuff out of traitors, Yes, but you didn't swear off a life of crime just that particular when you realize they're actually were victims with the stealing

fuel and lows. I quit in late fourteen. I believe the last thing I can remember doing, aside from deer hunting, that was b considered illegal was the dirtmax being racked and asked after that it was just deer hunting. Despite this claim of changing his ways and leaving his life of crime behind him, and you canepa question George Wagner about the illegal activities he continued to engage in, including using a fake address to get his trucking license. So

it's an application for a driver's license, correct? Yes, okay. And what address did you put down there? Okay, that's not where you were living. No, it's my grandmother's form, but I remember, correct, it has something to do with or Now that's why use an address. Well, you're providing false information to a state agency, correct, Yes, Prosecutor and Jakin Epa then showed George Wagner a series of gun

receipts and purchase forms. So you know that you have to put accurate information on those forms, correct, Yeah, it's a federal offense not to But you're purchasing a firearm, right, Okay, So if you could go ahead and look at it and tell us what address you put down there, it's eight four or five Bethel Whigred Okay, but that's not reloked. Not At the time. My license had nic expired, and when I bought my firearms, I was advised just to use what was on the driver's license I had and

taken time to change it. Actually, that's not permitted. That's what I was advised five people I bought them from. They said to put the addresses on my license. You understand that making any false, oral or written statement, or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction as a crime punishable as a felony under federal law. Yes, but at least three at least these three fours, you did not provide accurate information correct as far as the

driver's license address them. After George Wagner admitts lying on government firearm forms, Kneppa moved to point out other key discrepancies in George Wagner's testimony, particularly around when he went to bed the night of the murders. Prosecutors say. In twenty seventeen, Wagner told investigators that he'd gone to bed at twelve thirty am on the night of the murders after watching a movie with his family. However, in his

testimony today, he claimed it was around ten pm. You said that the night of the homicides you went to bed at ten o'clock. Ten issues, if I remember correctly. It's been a long time, okay, all right, And so do you recall again being interviewed at the border and saying that the four of you, well the six of you, actually your mom, your dad, your brother, yourself, we're watching a movie and you were up until you didn't go to bed till twelve thirty. I don't remember what time

it was. Okay. Do you remember telling the border at the border, the agents when they asked you about what you did that night, you saying that your mom had fixed cheeseburgers for you and how delicious they were, and she makes the best and maybe one day she could make them for them. I don't remember that now. I'm not saying I didn't say. I just said I don't remember. Okay. You indicated that you watched a fairy movie. Don't remember

what movie that wanted to watch. I just I remember watching the movie of the kids at this point, I don't remember what it was. It's been a long time. And you indicated that that is when your son would usually go to sleep as well. My son usually went to sleep ten to eleven usually. Okay, there's what I can remember. Is there a reason that you would lie to the people at the border. I'm not saying I did. I'm saying I don't remember what times like told him that. Okay,

I mean it may have been. I just from my memory now, I remember going to bed around tennish. I could be wrong about that, but that's what I remember. Yeah, Well, because now we know that Chris Senior and Gary were being killed at eleven PM, right, I don't know that. You don't know that. Previously, Jake Wagner testified that George participated in the murders. However, Jake said that George did not fire any shots. You don't know that. That's when your dad had Chris called his phone and you saw

the phone calls. Correct, I'm saying I wasn't there. I don't know when Chris had died. Right, Okay, you know that's what Jake said. I know my brother's time is off on everything that's been showed in here. So now we know, at least according to Jake, that Chris Senior and Gary were killed at eleven o'clock. Right. I think that's what he said, which makes your story at the border impossible. Right Again, I don't remember exactly everything I

said at the border. Well, it's when you were trying your best to tell the truth when you were interviewed at the border, correct to my knowledge of what I remembered. Okay, I'm not interested as much as what you said, as much as do you agree that it would be more accurate back then. I can't agree yes or no, because I just don't know you agree that you were trying to be honest with the agents. Certainly weren't trying to

lie to them. Yes, I agree on that you weren't trying to provide a cover story for you and your brother and your father and your mother. Right, So this whole idea that we're going to coordinate our response and say that we were all together a family night movie night watching, watching a video. Surely you didn't just make this up when you tour no people at the border. It just happened to be the same story that you guys had agreed in advance to tell. There was no

agreement in advance. My dad came down, my kid didn't want to leave. So your story today or yesterday is that you actually went to bed at ten from well, I remember at this point in time, I believe it was Tannish Okay. So how could Jake and your father have been up on the hill killing Chris Senior and Gary less than an hour after you went into your bedroom. I can't answer that. I don't know. Here's James Pilcher,

longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now at Local twelve. When George Wagner testified that he went to bed At ten o'clock, the two special prosecutors at Angela Kinnepa and Andy Wilson, looked at each other almost like pointed at each other like, haha, we have not heard what George had to tell Ohio Bci when they stopped the family at the Montana border on their way back from Alaska in May June twenty seventeen. They have not played a lot of that. They have

not played any of that. They played some of jakes, they played Angela's, but they've not played any of George's. And I think there was a strategic reason behind that, because they might have expected that George was going to testify for himself and they did not want him to hear what he had to say back then, so we could they could catch him in a contradiction, and they did and it was a big one. So they spent a lot of time and they hammered Angela Kneppa. If

you listen to Achieve hammers a moment. And I think if I'm sending there as a juror, if they paid his closest attention to this trial as I have, that's that's a red flag. The prosecution also hammer George Wagner on other red flags as well. This included denying any knowledge that Jake owned a Walter called twenty two pistol. Have you ever owned a nineteen eleven twenty two? No, has your brother ever owned one? To my knowledge? You know, so his testimony that he had this for more than

a year, you were unaware of that. If he's owned it that long, I didn't know about it. Okay, Well, obviously there's a picture of him holding that weapon in twenty fifteen. Now I see even the pictures. Is the vaccine? I didn't think that we should hit it from you? What is it? He hit it from you? If he's had it that long, he must have got a curiosity. Why would he do that? Because you guys keep those

your guns in your right. According to my brother's statement, he said that he owned every one of them guns on that list, and I've not seen over half of what's under his name. You fail to answer the question. You guys keep your guns and you're safe, correct most of them. So you're saying he owns guns you don't know of. I'm saying it's possible I've owned hundreds. Again, for over a year, he owned a gun and you were oblivious to it. It's very well possible here again

journalist James Pilcher. George has said he never saw and has never seen the nineteen eleven Walter Colt twenty two caliber that was used in the murders, even though aging Scheider texted them a picture of Jake holding it that they got off a Jake's phone, say, you've never seen that gun before. Ever. He bought that handgun at a gun shilling Columbus a couple of years before the murders at the end of January, on the same day that George bought a different gun at the same gun show.

They have the paperwork showing that they didn't buy their guns at the same vendor. So George was like, I didn't even know, really know Jake was there, so that if I'm a juror, I'm thinking, wait a minute, you mean to sell the YouTube. Boys went up there separately to the same gun show and bought guns on the same day and didn't know each other was there while your father's there. It was a small but key moment

at the end of the day. During one of his conversations with Jake after the murders, George was recorded by BCI agents complaining that Jake could not tell lie all this with George insisting that Jake destroy evidence. And you actually talk about that with Jake again, about how my whole wife, I've been in trouble with you because of you telling everything and telling honesty. Yes, And everybody says, my anger mouth is going to get us in trouble,

But it's always been your honesty that gets us in trouble. Correct. And you say, children, you have to tell on yourself, children, you have to tell on me. Yeah, as we're children. That's why I'm referring to his as when we're children. And you also tell him that he should have gotten rid of the phone and he should have smashed the laptop. Correct, Yes, and again that's because we got a lot of evidence

from those items. My understanding of it was that he kept saying, you guys were twisting stuff that you found on it to try and frame him. Let's stop here for another break. Oh, I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.

He shouted into the point that she went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. I will

always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. They say history is written by the victors, but you know what they've left out a hell of a lot of juicy stuff. Take Abe Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple was sitting right next to him when he was shot? It haunted the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah, we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again.

Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the telephone, and then claimed it as his own. For every pivotal moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's usually way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious murders to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the fascinating lives of those just outside the limelight. Where going to uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know you

need it to know. Listen to the Backstory with me Patty Steele, twice a week on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, mappam babble here, host of Revisionist History, a show about the overlooked and the misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else.

Like our ongoing obsessive campaign to blow up the world's most focused college ranking system, why not just throw in a few extra zeros or witness me after years of fancy public speaking, learning that I kind of have to start over. The tone that you had throughout the debate was very similar to some of the students that I do work with, and that's what I teach them not

to do. We're making more revisionist history for you this year than ever from places all across this great country, emergency rooms, huge theaters, small towns and shooting rangeous and you want to put your thumb up there, You're gonna pull the trigger with this finger here. Okay, listen to revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Nearing the end of her cross examination, Prosecutor Andrew Kinnepa brought up George's long history of calling

female family members derogatory names. This included one incident where George complained about Jake's four year old daughter. This is the call where you said she can't keep her nose out of somebody else's life. She being yes, and Jake says, George, she's four years old. You said she does anything, delivered you to try it and crush him deliberately. Bitch got to ruin everything. You referred to your niece, You're four year niece as a bitch because she was ying information.

What I would explain this before five to six days with no sleep in caffeine, you say stuff you don't really mean. Yeah, you said a lot of things. Makes you irritable. Sure, and she went around telling my son that she had a new mom, and he didn't. You called her bitch. You remember calling your grandmother Frederica a crazy horror. I don't remember that. You don't remember telling your mom to calm that crazy hor down. I don't remember that conversation. Am I saying? It's possible? Yeah, I

probably said something like that. I've said a lot of stuff on my being upset that I really didn't mean. But I've said it because I've been days without sleeping, massive amounts of caffeine. Sure, And I mean you called Randa I think of lazy crack hor I think I've called her that more than once. Okay. And you told the agents at the order that you thought that Hannah turned into a hor from what everybody else was saying. Okay, And that was after she had left Jake. What everybody

else was saying after she left Jake. To my understanding, I don't think she ever really did, but that's what everybody else was say. Okay. And you called certainly called Tabby a whore many times, and referred to bat Ban as a whore just like Tabby many times. Here again, and sette Levy, he's calling his niece. You know, I think he called his niece a bitch. He called his sister in law horror. I mean, and he attributes that too.

You know, I drive on the road and I'm up a long time, and I eat, you know, drink caffeine, and I just think to myself, like I could see that. I mean, I mean, I've been wound up before and ranted and raved and said things. And you know, you go off on a tirade, but at the same time, in one of my tirades are rants. I've not spoken about a four year old child like that. Unable to explain the many inconsistencies in his testimony, George Wagner pushed

back against Anti Kneppa's questions. He insisted, in one of the most tense exchanges of the day, that his mother and brother are lying, and my mom and brother are lying to you. They have been like everybody else, Like everybody else's lying, like Tabitha's lying, Chelsea's lying, like everybody's talking about Frankie's lying. Everybody is lying except for you. I did not say Chelsea's lying. I said, shoot, mistaken right.

And even though you've not managed to tell us anything consistent with what you told the agents at the border in twenty seventeen. You're the one that's telling the truth. I don't remember exactly everything I said at the border. That's not the question. The question is what you're saying to does today is not consistent with what you've said at the border. Yeah. I can't say if you guys are not because I don't remember everything sent there. But everybody else is lying. I'm saying that my mom and

Tabby Jake's lying about that night. We're very mistaken, one of confusing two different events into one. Angela Caneppa trying to trip up George, and he comes across as very calm, very prepared, very even keeled. Does it work again, He only needs to convince one juror that he is telling the truth and that Jake and his mom are lying. Canneppa is trying to rattle him, but it just doesn't

really seem to work. And at the same time, Canneppa makes the point for George to be telling the truth, a lot of other people need to be lying, which is a good point because Jake and Angela were not able to corroborate their stories. They have both been in separate jails this entire time, with no communication, So the fact that their true stories matchup is a pretty good indicator that they perhaps they're telling the truth, because George could be lying all by himself. But how could those

two have the same story without communicating first. They may have practiced a script to some degree before their arrests. They might have been planning for this moment all along. But on the other hand, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner are both the state's witnesses, so that means they've been working with the prosecution and their team to figure out

what they're going to say on the stand. And in conversation with Mike Allen, lawyers have to tread very lately about coaching witnesses on what they're going to say, but we do know they can prepare them, and prepare them they do. They spend hours talking over every single possible detail. Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.

We heard all this technical stuff for so long, like the ballistics and the shoeprint, all these things, but I think it ultimately comes down to it's what George said versus what Angela and Jake said. Like that is what I think the jury probably most weighed. Do you see it that same way or yeah, I mean, it would come down to credibility from George and Angela. And I think the credibility goes with Angela because George any number of times just said I don't recall I don't remember.

I didn't count him up, but there are a lot of times that he said that, and I don't recall hearing that in Angela or Jake's testimony for that matter. It was just pretty straightforward. So I think if you didn't have the physical evidence and it's you know, it's George against those two, I think they win and George doesn't because a lot of things he didn't remember, and he contradicted himself on a number of occasions. And also, I mean it's Jake and Angela. They have not communicated,

so it's not like their comparing notes. If their stories lineup, is that must be worth a lot more than George by himself, no question about it, because they were kept separate. There's no way they could get together out in the hallway, and they get their stories straight. So yeah, I mean that gives them I think another reason why they have the greater credibility here. But the prosecution wasn't quite done highlighting George Wagner's incriminating comments. You indicated that you wanted

to kill special Agen Chider. Correct. I said that, Yes, okay, Jake didn't threaten him. Jake did not threaten him, not to my knowledge. You remember telling your brother that you should go to BCI and tell them that he'll rat you guys out because he's the biggest rat there is. Yes, I remember that, okay? And do you remember also telling your mother? Let me tell you something. I love you the only reason and I'm sorry you're gonna hate when I say this, everything that you and Dad have ever

gotten in trouble for with them mother frickers. The only reason they ever got away with that craft was because every time some but he caved, everybody crumbled. I ain't caven and I ain't crumbling. Do you remember saying that? Don't remember them exact words, but I do remember roughly the conversation, okay, And that was played in thanks. So yes, okay?

And is that true philosophy? You don't and you don't crumble, not for what I believe you're trying to say it as wow, I don't think timically you're talking about anytime they got in trouble with law enforcements because somebody cracked. I don't believe you should plead out to something you didn't do. After the prosecution ended their cross examination of George Wagner, his defense attorney John Parker once again re asked him several questions about the murders. George, just a

few follow up questions. Probably been a long couple of days for you, hasn't it? Apparently? George? Did you ever see Jake by the nineteen love No? Did you know he owned law? No one. Did you go up on Union Hill Road and participate in these murders in any way? Did you plan these murder No? Did you know they were going to have? No? Did you know after the murders that they, in fact your family had been involved? No?

Not until my rubbish proffer. And did you know did you ever go out to Left Fork Road where Kim was killed? Has anybody paid you anything for your testament? Has anybody giving you anything for your testament? Now? Did the state offer you a police bargain from your testament? No? Are you telling the truth? Yes? Your life is on the line. Yes. Are you telling the truth? Yea as

you answer to God? Yeah? Yes, with one last chance to potentially trip up George Wagner prosecutor and Jacanappa asked him what happens to him if he admits to killing the roadents. What happens to you if you come in here and admit that you and your brother and your father went up to Union Hill Road that night and then out to Left Fork Road that night and slaughtered perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds, two of them with babies in the bed with them that,

from all testimony, were actively nursing their infants. What happens to you if you come in here on that stand and admit to that. Do you want me here and say, well, I feel should happen to anybody that would do that? I want to know what happens to you if you come in here and admit that what should happen to anybody is they should have death given to them. And the biggest difference you agree between you and your brother is that when he does wrong things, he tells about

it and you don't when we were children. Yes, you may step down now since there's no DNA evidence connecting George Wagner to any of the crime scenes, jurors will have to decide who they believe him or Jake and and his mom Angela, who have already said under oath that George Wagner was part of the plot to kill multiple people. More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram

at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikedon Masker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tua. Music by Jared Aston. The piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shoes