Devil in the Details

I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. I would call him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

get your podcasts. This is the story of a man who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name you don't forget. He was a visionary who built a fortune as a black man during Jim Crow during the Depression, but today not many people know about him. The race sort of wiped out, and I wonder if this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you

get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, I've been on the road playing shows and seeing America through live music. This summer, I'll hit the stage. Who Season two of Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, we explore the live music venues and culture of a new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues into the kind of venues you want to get to

when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver for Seattle. Listen to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There's always some tension in every trial. This one, I would say, is an eight and a half or nine out of ten you shop I've seen, but all over space. The bullet ended up in the frontal lobe of the brain. I mean,

there's a lot of steakecare for both sides. On the one side of the prosecution is overseeing the most expensive, most complex trial in the history of Ohio, and on the other hand, the defense is trying to save a guy's life. So no matter how you slice this, it is still life and death. This is the Piked and Massacre Season four, Episode four, Devil in the Details. M Courtney Armstrong a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie

Lydecker and Jeff Shane. We've been following this case closely for almost five years, and it's surreal to see it all begin to unravel in a brick red nineteenth century courthouse on Second Street in Waverley, Ohio, a cozy town of four thousand on the Siota River. It's important to note that George Wagner the Fourth, who's currently on trial, has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming,

has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. George Wagner the Fourth says he has absolutely nothing to do with the eight murders. His brother Jake and mother Angela have pled guilty too, But the prosecution believes they can put George Wagner the Fourth at the scene of the killings, or at least prove he was part of the murder conspiracy. Soon, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner will take the stand against

their family. Here's reporter James Pilcher. It depends on how believable the jury finds Jake and Angela and is it possible that he works free, Absolutely as possible. You never can tell. Jake has previously testified that George Wagner did not kill anyone. What he and his mother, Angela will say on the stand is anyone's guess. Here's Stephanie and Jeff.

Keep in mind, the prosecution believes that they can put George Wagner the Fourth at the scene of the killings, or at least they feel they can prove that he was part of the murder conspiracy. Prosecutor Angie Kinnepp, but you'll remember, agreed in December twenty twenty ones hearing that

George Wagner the Fourth didn't kill anybody. However, unique to the state of Ohio, someone can be sentenced to death for an aggravated murder conviction and steff It's an interesting distinction that we really want to make clear because it means that you can be convicted even if all you did was helped plan or cover up the crimes. Jake and Angela have been proven to be liars in the past. Remember after the murders, they claimed their innocence and then

years later, of course, changed their story. So why should we believe them now. Pike County Sheriff Tracy Evans chose not to be recorded while testifying, which is rare for an elected official. We do know Evans told jurors he was the one who determined Dana Rodin had been shot to death after removing a blanket and pillow that was

covering her head. One key witness who agreed to be recorded was Miranda Cable, a registered nurse and paramedic who responded to the call at Frankie Rodin and Hannah Gilly's house. She's one of the first responders to testify about the crime scenes. Initially, Cable thought it was a domestic violence dispute where somebody was possibly killed. She was then directed to a second location, where she learned that were only

to seize people on the scene. She then returned to Hannah Gilly and Frankie Roden's house, where the couple was found brutally slaughtered. Their six month old baby had been discovered alive covered in their blood. We were asked to go back to the first residence to transport a child. And do you know that child's name? Yes, it was Roden. Okay. To protect the children's identities, we will beat the use of any miners' names used in court. Do you know

how old Roden was at that time? Six months? Okay? So five minutes later basically okay? And do you recall the condition that you found in. He had blood on his head, on his arms, and legs, in various parts of his body. He didn't appear to have any visible injuries, showing you what's been marked as states Exhibit Q two. And if there appears to be blood on his legs and feet and head and face, is that consistent with

the condition you found him in? Yes? Okay? And can you tell us when you were examining him, did you personally take care not to clean him up? And he's staying at that time? Forensic investigator Joseph Scott Morgan the fact that Miranda that eunt had walked in and she was essentially handed over like this still living legacy, if you will, the stained in blood swaddled the child, I would imagine blood stained diaper, you know, and has to make sure and at that moment, you know, you can imagine.

I know that I've been on scenes before that were very dramatic, but in that moment time, you're getting a sense that everybody's been wiped out and this little precious angel is still cooing and alive. The defense did not cross. Timothy Dickerson, former Pike County Police officer and director of

Pike County Emergency Management, also arrived on the scene. In his court testimony, he detailed entering Dana Roden's house to find the bodies of hannahme and Chris Roden Jr. It was a grizzly spectacle, actually did my vehicle went into the home, I didn't turn right, went into a room and found a deceased mail he was in the bed. Went from there out through I guess would be the living room, the kitchen area, to another room where a deceased female was located, and then made a right and

found a third deceased female. While Dickerson was in Hanname's room, he heard a sound and saw a baby's arms extend up from the bed in which her mother had been shot to death. What was the baby's condition? From what I remember, I just remember the diaper having blood on it. It was a traumatic scene, a large scene, and when I discovered that the baby was alive, I was very thankful for that. Did you have a fear that the baby may not have been alive? Yes. Dickerson later learned

the baby was only four days old. In his words, she was very, very tiny. The jury on day four was shown numerable evidence photos of inside the home, bloody drag marks, blood spatter on the wall, and other forensic material. All of this might trigger a jury to respond in anger. The defense questioned whether all these gory exhibits were necessary.

Here's James Pilcher. They dove into the third crime scene, which was the house that belonged to Dana Manly Rodin, and that's where she, her son Chris Junior, and her daughter Hannah rode And were all found shot to death in their beds. There was a newborn infant found alive next to Hannah. Her newborn daughter here again, Stephanie and Jeff. In court, they've been showing these autopsy photos of the victims and the crime scenes. As we've been hearing, very

graphic and very disturbing. And due to the graphic nature of all these pictures and walk through, the defense has tried to move for a mistrine. Basically how it works in the courtroom is behind the witness, there's a flat screen television and when pictures are shown of the crime scenes in autopsies, etc. It goes on this big screen, and of course the jury is moved emotionally by the graphic nature of it, and the defense is saying, hey,

that's not fair. It's not proven that George has done this, so humans in general are going to feel angry toward anybody who might be associated with these photographs. And on the flip of that, prosecutor Angie Kneppa is saying, look, this is what happened. To not show these photos is also a crime. You have to see the graphic details to really know the depth of these crimes. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called the

girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't. He really wasn't. He shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob lie about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay

for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. I will always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney, hell is going on here? Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted

a situation like this. I just thought it was just a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they won't cross. I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people. You may never have to face that decision when you find yourself at that line, thou its ricin, R's ricin, and somebody needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth. This is evil and the only person who can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers.

If you are disloyal, thinks are going to happen to this week out disgrace to our cut. Evil Poy should be prosecuted when power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always

time to touch incredible guests about important things. People like me have been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil. They will take things away and I can only hope that dal this is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl. You and I both know what it took to just get through the day in New York City and get home in one piece. And so the fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what

I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share how Rude Tanta Rito's is the

Full House rewatch podcast you've been waiting for. Each week, get together with iconic characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, also known as actresses Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as they team up to relive every episode of your favorite

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Defense attorney Richard Nash drilled Dickerson on where Dana Roden's home was located. Was it in Pike, Adams or Sayota County. When Dickerson answered Pike at first, the two got into a heated exchange. This was a case of an old motion rearing its head again that the trial venue was in proper and search Warren's invalid because Dana's home was not technically in Pike County. James Pilcher, I think if anybody's familiar with

old school basketball. This feels like the old four corners offense. By the defense, they are just playing stallball. They are trying to make this thing last as long as they can get as many jurors frustrated as they can with the prosecution. After Dickerson, prosecutors called Gary Michael Mosley, a former piked In officer who responded to the scene along with Dickerson's team. Mosley opted not to be shown on camera,

but consented to an audio recording. He says he and his fellow deputies responded to a shots fired call at Dana Roden's house. They searched the property with extreme caution gunstrawn, fearing an active shooter was still on the premises. We had no idea. His audio is a little bit difficult to hear, so Jeff's going to read from a transcript. Guns were out. We had a plan. Once again, we

had no idea. The house was designed the way it was, so our plan was just to go in and set up security base once we make entry and go from there and secure it. Bit by bit. We opened the door and the door swings inward to the right, so as I came in, I do what's called a piegraph cut. I'm an active shooter instructor, and I was taught that. So we come in. I spin from this wall to this wall, constantly looking to see if there's any threats

in this room. Another key witness who took the stand was Sheriff's Lieutenant Adam Ball, who was the first officer on the murder scene. Ball had no idea what he was responding to when he pulled up to the property. He also opted not to be recorded, but Ohio Fox nineteen reporter Mike Sheell he's the gist of the lieutenant's testimony. The first witness opted out of being recorded. He has

Pike County Sherifs Lieutenant Adam Ball. He testified that he was the first officer to enter the crime scene at forty seventy seven Union Hill Road where the bodies of

Chris Roden Sor and his cousin Gary were found. Lieutenant Ball, who was a corporal in twenty sixteen, says there was so much blood when he walked into the front door that he had to climb over a treadmill and other furniture to avoid disturbing the crime scene and get to the back bedroom where Chris and Gary Roden's bodies were found lying together on the floor at the foot of a bed. Chris Senior's fate was particularly heinous. The arm he held up in self defense was blown off at

the elbow. Here again, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. Chris Senior's arm was so just absolutely mangle that she stated that many of the major musselburts were visible. You can see practical bone, and she could not make heads or tails of at what point the bullet entered his arm and what point it exit. That's important for us because from a forensic standpoint, it's seen, because that goes to

the dynamics of what's happening at that moment. It's not like you're shooting that a fixed paper target at a gun range. Okay, if Chriss rotated slightly to the left or to the right, that could give you an indication that he had an awareness and he was each shot as opposed to straight on where he's staring down the muzzle of this weapon. Here again, James Pilcher. He would have bled to death from the shot in the arm,

the shot to his stomach. He might have survived for several hours without treatment, but it would have caused sepsis and other things, and it hit liver and all that. The shot to his chest hit his heart, he would have died within a couple of minutes. And then of course there are six shots to the head, and they said that four of the shots to the head were clearly he was already lying down and not moving, so

these were just on top of everything else. They shot him while it was on the ground to bang bang bang bang. Lieutenant Ball was also the one to discovered the Roden's marijuana grow operation. He describes it as quote extensive, taking up a garage and outbuilding an a semi trailer. He also discovered that the rodent security cameras had been dismantled. Lieutenant Ball actually one outside after clearing the house because

they didn't know if anybody was still around. They didn't know if somebody was still on the property killing anybody, or armed or whatever. So after clearing the trailer were Chris and Gary Layer. They went out and cleared the property and at that point that's when they found the open marijuana grow operation. And they went upstairs and that's when they found, Hey, there's cameras and wires and no DVR.

The defense exploited the grow operation to suggest that the murders could have been cartel related, a theory police have long dismissed. At one time, there was a speculation that a Mexican drug cartel may have been involved in the murders, but then Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine said it was not a factor. The motive was a custody dispute over

Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodent's two year old daughter. It's obviously too early to surmise how this trial is skewing, but one glaring omission from the defense is this George Wagner, the fourth attorneys have yet to offer up a clear, solid alibi for where George was on the night of the killings. Again, James Pelcher, they've been kind of vague

on this point. They have not come out and said and actually this was they were about to say something along those lines, and they're opening the defenses opening, and there was an immediate objection and they went back in the chambers. Five minutes into the defenses opening, you get an objection from the prosecution. It was really really strange, and they kind of intimated that George stayed home and was asleep in his bed and he was going out, and he found it really weird that Jake was up

before him working. He wanted nothing to do with his family and he wanted he's trying to stay away from him. But they never came out and said he has an alibi. That never came out and said this is where he was. And that's going to be the difficult thing for the defense, especially when you start seeing their funds were commingled. They even have him on recording telling his mother, I don't want to leave. We're all here together, this place as a moneymaker. This is after they moved to Alaska. I

know him jumping out of myself. But there have been evidence produced since the first stages of the trial that have indicated that George was still part of the family. He didn't want to leave, like the defense has indicated in their opening statements, and the prosecution is specifically tailoring their evidence towards what the defense set in the opening statement that George wanted to move out, George wanted nothing to do with the family, and they're introducing evidence piece

by piece that that was not the case. Joseph Scott Morgan weighs in on the challenges the prosecution phases to place George at the scene of the crime. I think that there are a lot of circumstantial issues regarding the planning.

I think that he had an awareness, obviously, and for all I know, he was very well in the vehicle, you know, I mean, you know, who am I to say, but to physically put him in, you know, in the trailer with for instance, with Chris and Gary that night when that hole was blown through the door, or you know, when that wood was splintered and sent into Chris seeing your's face, you know, you really think you know, was

he there? You know it was he physically there while it was happening, or when the bodies are being drug from one room to the other, you know, which is really kind of an exclamation point in all of this, because it goes to the kind of the ghastliness of it all. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff. At this stage, it seems that the main question is was George Wagner there And if he wasn't was he a part of the planning? And if he was a part of the planning,

is he equally culpable? It seems like what the defense will try to do is hammer away at this story and argue that yes, he came from a bad family, but that doesn't make him a bad guy. So, as we learned last season, the opinion of George Wagner is a little mixed. Some people were shocked that he was involved with the murders and had a very hard time wrapping their around it, and other people were not surprised and thought he was very much a part of the

Wagner clan. And so I think it's just going to be fascinating to watch all of this play out in the courtroom. The prosecution has its vulnerabilities. Also among the media pool, there is definitely a sense of questioning about the prosecution strategy and when are they all going to tie this together? When are they going to point to George being part of this conspiracy because none of the

physical evidence presented so far. They're starting to get into some of the other evidence on the wire taps and so forth, but they even stipulated none of the physical evidence they found that the crime scenes had any of the Wagoners to any of these crime scenes. Joseph Morgan theorizes about how the lack of DNA evidence will be a possible blockade improving. George the Fourth was there the night of the slings. It's tough nowadays. You know, maybe

ten years ago it wouldn't have been tough. But we're in a brave new world. People have an expectation that, oh, they're gonna get here and talk about DNA. I've seen that on television. And you get up there and it's a big fail, you know, as far as the jury is concerned. But just because you have an absence of something doesn't mean that something hasn't occurred. It's just that that's what many people expect. You know, that we can

conjure up DNA and you can't. It's either there it's not, you know, and I think that that's significant, and it's also significant relative to fingerprints as well. Let's stop here for another break. Oh I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages,

he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't He really wasn't. He shouted to the point she went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call him and I

would say, I know you killed my sister. I will always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney. Hell is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted a situation like this. I just thought it was just a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they won't cross. I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people.

You may never have to face that decision when you find yourself at that line. Thoughts. Ricin, arn't ricin, And somebody needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth, like this is evil and the only person who can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to sit silently buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, things are going to happen to

this week out disgrace through our gun. Pevil play should be prosecute when power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my

award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to touch incredible guests about important things people like me have been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil. They will take things away, and I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl, You and I both know what it took to just get through the day in New York City and get

home in one piece. And so the fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share.

Hello and welcome to Bad Manners. This is the podcast that takes you inside Britain's stately homes and tells all the tales the guy books don't. My name is Tom Horton and I'll be your host. Britain is a riddle with the big hou from crumbling castles, massive mansions and stately piles bigger than bucking and Palace. As a comedian, I'm not really bothered about the facts and figures. I

just want the juicy stuff. So I'm on a mission to find out the frightening, filthy and downright jaw dropping stories of these stately homes and the people in them. This podcast ventures deep inside some of Britain's most incredible and outrageous buildings to spill the tea on the scandalous, scary, shocking and hilarious tales. So if you want to get historically horrid, royally raucus and down to dirty look no fur listen to Bad Manners on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. With eight bodies and four suspects, this is a case with a dizzying number of moving pieces, and there's a real risk of the jury being confused, allowing reasonable doubt to seep in. Here's law and crimes legal analyst Terry Austin. The more complicated, the better for the defense. The most complicating part of this case is keeping track of the names and the relationships.

I mean, we know already that there are eight victims for defendants for different crime scenes, and all of those individuals have people who were involved in terms of finding those individuals who were killed, and so the biggest issue for the prosecution is going to keep everything straight. You want that jury to follow your story. In the case of prosecution trying to pursue the claims against George, it's

going to be difficult to establish that motive. They have evidence against, you know, obviously Jake against Angela, but I think it might be difficult and all you have to do, as you know, is have one juror who has reasonable doubt and doesn't want to convict and where you happen. So we'll see what happens. But I think there could

be some doubt in the case against George here. And remember, this is a jury of his peers that's rooted within our family documents, and his peers consist of those that live in that small slice of the world up there that they see each other day to day, you know, Walmarton at cafe and everywhere else that they go up there, they see one another and they know one They raise their hands one another, they're driving down the road and wave, you know, and that sort of thing. It's that kind

of community. And I previously said and I'll continue to say that the level of brutality that is involved in the pike and massacre, in the murders of the road and family, again, it is something that is going to live in infamy in this corner of the world. It's the type of thing that one hundred years from now, kids will sit around campfires and they will tell horror stories about this is what we're with in that world. And so it's on the shoulders of this jury to

weigh the evidence and decide. You know, is somebody going to be made to pay. But they've got a hard decision, I think, and it's still coming and they're not there yet, but they will have a hard decision to make it by George. So look at it this way. TV has sixty minutes, maybe two hours. If you're a movie to tell a story about a trial, you can only fit so much evidence. You can only fit so much dramatic

moments into that. But when you're dealing with the actual rule of law and how you can introduce evidence and what kind of questions you can ask and all of those things, all that stuff you see on TV is out the door. So what we're seeing is the very slow incremental process of justice and the law. In this case, Lady and Gentleman's a jury. We're going to a journance for the day, could be going home, could be taking your badges with you and leaving your notepads on your chairs.

As Day four wrapped up in the face of all the brutal evidence, presiding Judge Randy Deering took a moment to remind the jury of their weighty responsibilities. And you know what else, I'm going to say, You're not to discuss this case among yourselves or with anyone else. You're not to permit this case if we discussed with you or in your presence. You're not to form or express an opinion concerning this case until it is finally submitted

to you for deliberation and verdict. You not read, listen to, or view any reports or accounts of this case from any source whatsoever. Even though many witnesses are opting out of being recorded, the Katie Studios team and experts are there. In the coming weeks, the pieces of a devastating and complicated puzzle will finally come together once and for all.

I would say they were trying to shock the jury at this point with the violence of it, for sure, because they showed the pictures of people dead in their beds or on the floor or pulled into beds time and time and time again. I can't imagine. Can you even put it into words? What it's like more slightmare?

Living in hail really well, I was trying to get home my father, and I want able to Greechi to let him know that his brother and his niece and nephews and stuff has been killed, Luke said their dad, Billy Wagner once threatened violence against his dad and his uncle, Chris Rodin Senior. Luke said that while his dad and uncle were doing a good deed for Billy Wagner, Billy told Luke that a dust up between the three of them would not end well. Markma worst this case. It

is about to blow wide open. More on that next time. For more information on the case and real elevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masaker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, Alan Wheaterer, Andrew Arnow and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios.

For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.