With Heartfelt Thanks

Hello and welcome to the Philanthropy Impact Podcast where we discuss all things philanthropy And sustainability. Hi and welcome to Philanthropy Impact's Walk in My Shoes member series, where normally we explore topics that are useful to you and your clients as they embark on their purpose-driven wealth strategies and plans.

But today we want to say a heartfelt thank you. The discussion today will be led by our CEO John Pepin and we'll be celebrating the professional advisors who have made a contribution to addressing the changing needs of clients for investing and giving for. My name is Zophia Sahannick and I'm the Director of Membership and Development here at Philanthropy Infect. And the person to talk to you if you'd like to know more about our training and how to make the most of your members.

I'll share my email in the chat or at the end of the session for those watching the recording. Rydyn ni'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol, mae'n cymdeithasol.

That leads me to introduce our panel who are joining John for this conversation. Today we welcome Jamie Broderick, who's the director of Impact Investment Institute. May Ro Mary Rose Gunn, sorry, founder and CEO of the Four, and Frank Toby, I hope I hope I've said that right, family officer, advisor, philanthropist, and impact investor. Thank you all so much for joining today. And I will now pass over to John to make the start.

I put uh uh uh something on the screen uh because this is all around values and motivations and supporting clients on living their values. So I thought this was really neat. um in terms of the important role that you play as advisors around profiling, matching, and guiding your clients, whether it's uh uh through SDGs to philanthropy or impact investing. So I thought I'd just share that for a second because it's just the context for this.

Um okay, so over the years we've seen uh the advisory sector uh evolve and change where more and more advisors now are having conversations with their clients because clients are demanding it around their philanthropy and impact investing uh and giving support uh and advice around that. that this session is a thank you session uh to thank advisors for the role they're playing and meeting their client needs and therefore the title is with heartfelt thanks so happy valentines everyone

Hey, applause, everything, everyone responding back with their hearts pouring out. Yay. Um I we'll see who the romantics are on this panel. Um okay, so um

Maybe we could ask each one of you uh to uh just say who you are and why you're interested in this topic before I start to ask you questions. So Mary Rose.

Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you, John, for inviting me to join. My name is Mary Rose Gunn, and I'm the founder and chief executive of The Four, which is... yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n And other players to help make sure that really exciting, innovative small charities and social enterprises have got the support that they need.

ymwneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud. in terms of whole um trialling new models for solving homelessness, uh looking at ways of addressing knife crime or environmental challenges. Thank you. Jamie. Sound. Yeah.

Good afternoon everybody, I'm Jamie Broderick. I'm a director at the Impact Investing Institute here in the UK and we we cover a broad range of issues surrounding impact investing. Before that, I was head of UBS Wealth Management in the UK. And before that I was CEO of JP Morgan Asset Management Europe. So I have a asset management, wealth management and now impact management background. And that's what brings me.

Thank you, and you're also uh on on our board. I am indeed. Yes. Frank, who are you? Yeah, well... That's a very big question, but I'll keep it professional and practical. Um I'm a third generation member of a of a of a family from the Netherlands originally, which you'll still get from my accent. Uh my grandfather built a large business, it was a discount pharmacy chain, and uh we sold that in the early two thousand.

And that has set a good part of my professional life on course. We run three foundations and impact investing. fund in Nairobi called DOB Equity, uh a conservation fund called DOB Ecology, which with which we try to protect and restore forests and wetlands in in Latin America and uh sub Saharan Africa.

And DOB Emergency, which provides emergency aid to children in refugee situations. I sit on the board of DOB Equity, our Nairobi-based uh VC, and I grew up alongside these organizations. And so it could Only happen that my career is also in this space. I founded and run a company called Supernova, with which we create tools for wealth managers, advisors, and family offices. to report and engage their clients around the impact of their portfolios.

Thank you. Um okay, so Mary Rose, maybe I could start off with you. Um, I'm still waiting for one of you to say happy Valentine's Day. This is really disappointing. Um

Uh okay, so what is your perspective on whether we should celebrate the role of professional advisors play in supporting their clients on their donor journey? And could you give us some good examples? Uh happy Valentine's Day, John. There you go. Thank you. Um I think that Yes, we should celebrate the role of professional advisors to a certain extent. I think there is also an enormous amount more that could be done, if I'm completely honest.

I think that at best professional advisors can help clients create maximum impact when they are in the philanthropic and the social investment space. They can educate, they can open people's eyes, they can encourage. their clients to take risks, they can push them and challenge them, but at worst They can be too nervous, they're not desperately well informed, they'll fail to challenge their clients to do things better and do things different, and they can often even encourage bad practice.

So I think that we uh I I celebrate with caution. But there are some really great examples, definitely. I mean, we are work um quite closely with C or Co. the private bank, and I have to I am, you know, I I admit my connection, but I think that they do a fantastic job in leading by example. They take a lot of risk in what they do. They have been early adopters of.

um uh platform. And they also they we work with them, they're very keen upon looking To support early stage charitable enterprises and looking at how grassroots organisations can really create a social change that we need. So I think good example there are good examples out there, but there are also examples of people who are too nervous about recommending their clients to speak to other people because they're nervous of losing their business.

Um, which I think is deeply sad basically because In my opinion, whenever you work with anybody, even if you recommend them to talk to somebody who's their competitor, that ultimately puts you in better um uh standing in their eyes because they think, well, you must be confident, you must be good at what you do if you think I should talk to somebody who potentially might be a competitor to get a broader range of um advice on an issue.

So yeah, there, I mean, there are other good examples definitely out there, but I think that we have to be cautious in how much we celebrate this, because there is a lot, there is a long way for us all to go. Okay, so I accept your caution, but don't accept your caution. because I think we're celebrating the ones who are really doing this and trying to encourage others. So thank you for that. There are a number of advisors on this call as attendees.

So if you have comments and examples and stuff, if you put them in the chat we'll read them out. So thank you. So f uh Frank, in your and your peers experience. Do you think the changes some advisors are making in supporting their clients and living their values should be celebrated? And which should uh happen to those not responding to this growing trend, um, especially in light of Mary Rose's uh comment.

Right. Well, generally also my first response was yes, absolutely. It's great to see movement and it's also necessary to see movement because I I would say I think something that a lot of advisors are starting to see, but I'd love to have um that confirmed or um or denied in the in the in the chat, but is that not only is this an extra set of tasks.

to your daily job that you need to do. It's a huge opportunity. It's a huge opportunity to engage clients. So what I often try to what what I've seen our advisors do as well is they've changed Their mindset from this being an extra burden to this being something that could actually carry them into the future. The people are doing less. I would like to

Give him one the credit uh in saying that this is very complex. Usually you're straddling not only a world of impact investing and philanthropy that's brand new often to you and to your client. But you're also with an assignment to optimize returns, right? Those are those usually go hand in hand and they're not always easy to marry. Um and then the third factor that you see in that is that everybody is different. So I've heard from many advisors.

They talk about something they think is really exciting. And their client has heard or read or seen something about that very subject which they don't like. And now there's actually friction in the relationship between that advisor and that client. So this is a minefield, right? Potentially. So I I believe that the future of this

uh uh uh of of advising clients on these matters should be highly personalized, highly tailored, and that's not very easy to do. But I believe we're moving towards a world in a way It's an opportunity. We're moving towards a world in which the way we allocate our funds is going to be um an expression of Self actualization.

More than it is uh an expression of an accumulation of wealth for its own sake. And that's super exciting. And so I think to those who are uh not willing to to to to move move along, uh you're gonna miss out. We're gonna miss out. Having said that, there will always remain a small percentage of clients who is absolutely not interested. And then perhaps your duty as an advisor is to leave them alone.

It's interesting because um in some of the millennials we're dealing with, frankly, uh they're trying to get their advisors to support them on their client uh journey and on on their donor journey and on their impact investing. And we we know some examples where the advisors have been very traditional and so they have been in fact been uh fired um because they're not responding to the client needs. Are you seeing that happening amongst your peers?

Yes, absolutely. Having said that, I think the for from a millennial perspective, the services that are out there It's still a relatively barren landscape. Like I rarely hear one of my peers come to me and say, My God, you have to talk to these people. You know, so I think there's a lot there's a world to win. in the millennial domain I think the levers are are different.

Um but uh yeah, no, absolutely. I've heard a lot of I've I've heard a lot of that. Uh I've also heard it the other way around. I heard recently from a wealth manager who said that when they launched their ESG strategy Some clients left because they didn't want to be involved didn't want to be associated with that. But I guess that's a dying brick. Great. Jamie, what do you think of what Frank has been saying and what Mary Rose has criticized the advisors for?

Well, I think there's always an additional opportunity. I mean, I was interested to hear Frank talk about how great an opportunity this is. That was certainly my experience when I was in wealth management. We discovered that we could engage clients and engage billionaire clients in particular, better through a discussion around values and around philanthropy.

That we could through a very conventional discussion of the markets and discretionary portfolios and the conventional uh products, not only could we uh engage the principals, but we can engage the principals family much more effectively. So I think one of the one of the interesting trends here is I think there's an increasing recognition among advisors that this is good for business. This is a way to attract business.

This is a way to deepen the relationship. This is a way to expand and solidify that relationship. and tap into a family's values. So I think that's you know quite an important um trend that I would highlight. And it I'm I'm I'm interested, Frank, to hear you say that somebody

um decided to move on with their relationship because they we were offended by a move to ESG. That's a little surprising to me, a little bit, a little bit retrograde, but I think there are many, many more people on the other side of that, many more clients on the on the other side of that. There's um um a uh thing in the chat, so I've got to read it. It starts off by Happy Valentine's Day.

uh not that i've uh sort of focused on that um the uh very interesting to hear the perspective from uh mary rose in relation to risk and openness i agree with frank in terms of developing the mindset uh and note the challenge And this is from Will Hofkin for a barrister at New Square Chambers. So any other comments would be uh really uh great to to have. Uh so Mary Rose and uh uh A big part of of the four and your work with with advisors is to have engagement.

Could you explain a bit about uh the engagement, but also whether this is being driven by uh younger generation or this is just common across? So uh thank you, John. We we don't actually work often directly with advisors, we work directly with philanthropists and people interested in getting involved. Um we but we have a lot of cross fertilization with with advisors. But something that we find increasingly important and is something that we are sort of set up to try and take advantage of.

Is this, and Frank, I agree with you, there is so much opportunity and it's really, there is so much potential, it's very exciting, but is this real wish among the amongst the next generation to be involved in more than just a financial way? So people are really keen to get involved in I mean with what we do. It we are essentially it's a bit like a venture capital fund for the charity sector.

And we get people involved in both the decision-making process, but in a very much in a power-sharing dynamic. So it's about making decisions alongside sector experts. Felly mae'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud.

um social enterprises and young charities who are sharing ideas, sharing knowledge, sharing experience. And it's a really very positive mix we find that our our philanthropists are really excited by the idea that they can sit alongside somebody who has been through a period of homelessness and set up an organisation to try and make sure that the barriers that were in place to them getting hold of work, getting hold of accommodation can be broken down.

And they find that incredibly exciting that they can get such frontline experience. involved in helping them make their decisions about what they want to do about philanthropy. And it's not just about the decisions, it's about then some of the most positive relationships that we have brokered and and um facilitated have been when

Philanthropists have got more involved with organisations that they have met through us. So they might take the relationship offline, as it were, and that they might meet through us. ond rhaid iddyn nhw eisiau gwneud yn ymwneud â'r prosiect yn ymwneud â'r sgiliau, yn ymwneud â'r sgiliau, yn ymwneud â'r sgiliau, mae'n ymwneud â'r sgiliau, mae'n ymwneud â'r prosiect yn ymwneud â'r prosiect yn ymwneud â'r prosiect.

And that could be, I mean, we're a sector agnostic um funder, so that could be in any sector. It could be something environmental, it could be something in Africa, it could be something that is about Literacy levels in children in South East London. But it's all about helping the individuals and the families. It's not about what you want as a donor, it's about what the cause really needs because ultimately when you can learn that, that is when you can really make a difference.

It's very exciting. Sorry. Is there any generational difference in terms of of participation or is it going to be the same once they get excited and involved? I think it's probably reasonably similar once they get excited and inv once they get involved. pre-involvement I think the old generation are probably a bit more

reluctant to realise how much value they can add. Actually, I think the older generation, I mean, we have worked with people who were, you know, for example, somebody who was a managing partner in a magic circle warfare and saying, Oh I don't know if I'd be able to be helpful for a charity because you know my specialties my my speciality wasn't charity law.

I don't know what value I could be able to add. But obviously, you know, you've been a managing partner in a massive law firm. You have enormous amounts of experience running organisations, scaling organisations. you know just general legal expertise is always going to be valuable when you're talking to a charity. You know, be that charity tiny, it still might be negotiating contracts with a local council.

And you know, the experience that you have as a professional person is is valuable in almost every incident. And I think the younger generation are more open to expecting that that might be valuable, whereas the older generation are a bit more. Yeah, they're just they're just a little bit more nervous in coming forward with their skills, I think. But that's what we we love encouraging them to do. And and the thrill when they do is is is fantastic.

Well that's great. And it's good that some of their advisors are supporting them at the initial stages. Um Frank, just to shift the topic for a bit. Um what role is technology playing in supporting this? this growing trend for advisors to support their clients on their donor journey or for wealth managers to support around their clients around fulfilling their values and impact investing.

Well, to me, technology brings to this space what it brings and has brought in a positive sense to many other places, uh, despite Obviously uh a lot of noise around the negative impacts of technology. This is these are some of the things that I think they're adding. It's democratized knowledge. Around many of these topics. I mean, what 25 years ago when I was six?

Could an advisor really find out about, you know, conservation in sub Saharan Africa and all the key players in that space? If their clients said that's what I want to do.

How would you go how would you even go about that? I have no idea. But right now, you could actually come to the meeting well informed by reading for an hour or two. So a lot of a lot of knowledge is has been democratized. And so if that But in the right context, I think it can offer clarity to the advisor before the conversation even starts.

I think there's transparency. So you can cut through opinions much easier because you can read multiple of them. So that that's something that's the and also when it comes to data. You know, looking through the layers. This is something that technology can can can provide. Um, a certain level of independence. Uh and ultimately also connection. Like if I see the action that's been going on around these topics on LinkedIn, which like the number and the amount of time I spent on LinkedIn every day.

since five years to today has increased dramatically. And there's so many people that you can meet there that can add to your journey or to you grow as an advisor in this domain. Um that's come I think a complete change from what it was thinking when you were, I don't know, I guess subject to who you met at random or who you were introduced to by someone, and that created silos.

So that's technology, man. It's openness. So that's you know, I I I I think that's what this is gonna bring. But like a good coach or a good advisor. Technology is only beneficial when it's used in the right way and when it's when it's you know, when when it's applied in in in the right kinds of ways. But uh yeah, I believe in it. That's why I started Supernova.

So Supernova, is it developing tools like other organiz like other developers to support advisors in their conversations with their clients? Yeah, yeah. So we really saw the space and we went, Well, this whole we m mostly look at the mainstream kind of public market portfolio and we looked at the space. Obviously I looked at it from my own experience.

And I saw that the entire conversation was more or less behind closed doors, kind of one two between an asset allocator somewhere that you usually didn't get to meet and an ESG analyst somewhere in an office in in in Hamburg. And I thought, well, well, where am I? This is supposed these investments are supposed to be done aligned with my values, but where where do where am I in that in that process? So we're actually building owner-centric.

Tools for advisors to identify what the goals and the values of their clients are to begin with. Then to upload uh and screen the portfolios that they have for these clients and see how they overlap and how they align and then build more aligned products. Again, this is mostly in the in the in the public market space. And thirdly, to be able to report on it in a way that a client actually understands, and not with a seventy-three page document full of ESG risk scores.

So Jamie, over to you in light of what's been said earlier about the discussion around technology.

Um uh getting down to basics, first of all, what's your reaction to that and uh how the sector But secondly, why is a value-based conversation between advisors and their clients totally essential to this process? And if you want to talk about our training, you're happy to. The first thing, John, the first thing I would say about what Frank has just said is that this uh transparency that's created by technology, this transparency on information, the flow of information.

applies equally to philanthropy and to impact and And it just underlines the basic point, which is that um they're both just they're both forms of investment. They're both forms of accountable investment. Now we're just quibbling over the return.

But in both cases, you're taking your money, you want something out of it, you need to know where it's going, what it's doing, what impact it's creating. And that applies equally to philanthropy and to impact investing. And so I think you know at some point. People need to think in terms of their philanthropy needs to be an investment in something they care about, just as their investments are investments for a financial return. So I think that.

That's an interesting mindset for people to take. Now on why it's important, you know, I think um I think one of the biggest trends is that people now understand, and I attribute this largely to the climate crisis, people understand now that there's a relationship between planetary issues. and capital. I think that the climate crisis has told us

that we've got a very big problem and the only way to address that problem is going to bring capital to it. And so I think the climate crisis has taught us all that there is a link between capital and solving big problems. Is going to require uh advisors to probe on the client's um values and then do something with that response. And that's something that does need training. I think it's quite a

It's quite a challenging uh situation to be in, which is why I think Mary Ros, you were talking before about not all client advisors, not all financial advisors are up for it. Part of the reason is it's a complex space and I do I do think that people do need training. But the statistics, when you look at the surveys, Oxford risk being an example, John, you've uh shown me the uh research there. 50% of clients are either moderately, highly, or extremely interested.

in social investing. You know, so it's out that demand is out there. And there's no question that if you start that an advisor starts to probe, they will find the demand and the clients will need them to address Great, thank you. Uh Mary Rose, you have your hand up. Um yeah, James, thank you. I think those were really

Uh appetite points, two of both. I would like to respond to both of them actually and add a bit. So your um Your point that philanthropy like is is is investing, it's just with a slightly different return, I think is something that It's really, really important that advisors understand that philanthropy should be about making an investment.

And what often I think gets a little bit confused is people think it's more like shopping. So they will think, oh, I want to buy a certain outcome out of an organization. And actually that's when you really do limit. the impact that your support can have because you are, you know, you are the customer in the restaurant that is buying meals rather than the investor who is going behind the seas and seeing that actually half the equipment in the kitchen doesn't work.

So um I think that I would love to see more philanthropy advisors. talking to their clients and encouraging them to think of their philanthropic capital as being investable for social return as opposed to financial return, or if it's going into social investment for that that crucial mix.

um rather than being about buying outcomes, which is very tempting and it's very easy, particularly because a lot of organizations will sort of sell you outcomes basically. They'll they think that that's what um donors want to hear. And the second thing I think is I yeah, I'd really like to add to your point about the advisors being the link between um uh

their clients about how their capital can be linked to you know solving the challenges that we're seeing in the world, be it climate, be it social, be it racial justice. And I think that It is a very complex topic, but what it does offer is it offers the advisor, it offers you a chance to really get very, very close to your clients in a way that other conversations don't. And that is a way of really

really adding value both to yourself as an advisor, but also to that, to that client. And it's something that, you know, once you have it there and once you have that connection, that client isn't going to go anywhere. So I think it's really important. Okay, great. Thank you very much. Zophia's come on. Just to mention the training, the X we our expertise in teaching advisors how to talk to their clients about their values and to translate that into either impact investing.

philanthropy or both. Okay, Zophia, thank you very much, everyone. Mary Rose and Frank and Jamie.

Um, but thank you very much for your contribution, everybody. Uh now is the time for the takeaways. What is the thirty second takeaway you would like for the audience to take with them today? I'm gonna start with you, Frank. Oh, okay, that's a good one. I'm gonna improvise this, but my takeaway would be Know the value you can add and where that ends.

Um and where you have to hand that over to someone else. And handing that over to someone else is not scary. It's actually a sign of strength and personal insight. And know who you have in front of you. I think we mustn't Typify the social investing client as one kind of client. I think there are many, many different ones. So try to understand first very, very carefully what this person wants.

And how in how engaged they want you to be and act only after you know that. That that would be it actually. Yeah. Thank you. And Jamie? My comment would be to express heartfelt thanks to those advisors out there who are currently doing this because you the those of you who are pioneering progressive practice. You are proving that it can be done. You're demonstrating to your colleagues how it can be done, and you're proving to your colleagues.

that it's can be good for business, it could be good for your practice and good for your business. So I would just say thank you to those of you who are out there pioneering these practices because you are you there's a multiplier effect. And you are creating a whole new core cohort among your colleagues and people who observed you with this type of progressive thinking.

This is quite difficult because Frank and Jamie both said the things that I was going to say, but I can I add a very, very quick anecdote. So we have um a uh founder of a social enterprise that we work with, which is um about inspiring higher aspirations in kids who come from um disadvantaged backgrounds. She works in schools, it's a fantastically successful charity.

Now and she spoke of one of the um philanthropists and advisors who was it wasn't just about money, he was also providing her with um business mentoring um skill support. And um she spoke of him and said that he said to her when she was thanking him for the help he was providing her with, he said, look, please don't thank me because the feeling I get from this is electric. And that's what I just like to leave you with. Get your clients involved because they will feel the electricity.

Great, thank you. Fine final word to you, John.

Well, thank you for all that you're doing, all of you who have spoken on this, but also all the advisors out there who are uh following uh Jamie's example and happy Valentine's to you all. May your life be full of roses forever, every day of the year. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you all for joining. Thank you, everyone.

Next week we won't be doing a live walking my shoes, just to make you clear make that clear, there will be a recording of one that's very relevant at the moment. And on the 24th, we are doing a morning event to reach Asia. Um, with Hawkesburg where we're looking at the life cycle of a private client, which I think is going to be really, really interesting. Thank you very much and hopefully see you there. Bye. Thank you, everybody.