Transition to Net Zero

Hello and welcome to the Philanthropy Impact Podcast. Listen on for insights into philanthropy, impact investing and sustainability. Hi and welcome to Flanth B Impact's Walking My Shoes series for members, where today we are discussing the transition to net zero and the important need for collaboration across sectors for achieving.

My name is Zophia Sahanik. I'm the Director of Membership and Development here at Fantasy Impact. I'm the person to talk to if you'd like to know more about our training and how to use the most uh make the most of your membership. You can reach me in the chat or my email is shared at the end if you are watching on YouTube.

Our chair for this discussion is our board member, Jamie Broderick, who's also the director of Impact Investing Institute. And joining Jamie, we welcome David Hunter, who's Senior Council at Bates Wells. Kate Elliott, who's head of ethical, sustainable and impact research at Rathbones Green Bank Investments, and Carl Pratt, who's the founder and creative director of

Thank you, Sophia, and welcome everybody. And thank you to Carl, David, and Kate for joining us today in this discussion. So it's transition to net zero, a collaboration between sectors. So

You know, Ned Sarah seems to have moved to the top of everybody's favorite topics in the uh area of sustainability. So there's You know, I think there's broad agreement that we globally that we need to collectively decarbonize the world's economies and get to net zero emissions and keep the planet from heating by more than one and a half degrees above pre-industrial levels. So lots of

Consensus there, I would say. And the momentum is actually breathtaking if you think about it. So the net zero asset managers initiative. was set up in December 2020 and in one year had gathered 250 members representing fifty eight trillion dollars in AUM and that's about a third of all managed assets. So in one year, a third of managed assets globally came together and said, we need to get to net zero.

And then that group was part of a larger coalition, so that not just asset managers, but also uh banks and um insurance companies and pensions and other. Shared by Mark Kearney. And then if you remember, Kearney announced at COP26 in Glasgow that the members of the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero had committed$130 trillion to net zero. Amazing.

I'm still a little I'm still a little confused by what that means. So does that mean we have a pot of$130 trillion to spend on renewable energy? Because that seems like more than enough to get the job done. And then Do companies do the work? Govert governments do the work? Is it citizens? And then in particular given this audience.

What does that mean for financial advisors and then the portfolios that they build for their clients? So I'm kind of hoping that Carl, David, and Kate can help clarify. So let me start with that. What do we mean by the transition to net zero? Do we mean what does it mean? Is it transitioning the entire economy? Is it something that individual companies do?

And then what do you how do you take an investment portfolio to net zero? So does that mean what does that mean exactly? Does that mean get rid of all the high emitters? invest in solutions. So help me out here because I don't quite get it. I need to understand better. And Kate, let me start with you.

I think the simple answer is all of the above. We need all of those actors all acting in tandem and all speaking with a common voice or as as common a voice as you can ever hope to get across a kind of multi-stakeholder alliance.

But you're not going to reach net zero unless we see the the kind of policy backdrop being much more favourable towards it, unless you see that wholesale alignment of capital, not just where we're seeing the reallocation from high carbon to low carbon investments, but also what investors can do in terms of engagement and encouraging companies along the kind of more ambitious decarbonisation pathways.

you need to see it at at the kind of local level, individual citizens, uh national level, international level. So I think really it needs to be that that wholesale step change in in thinking and ambition. and the meeting between where we're seeing those lofty pledges And then seeing that actually backed up by by tangible short, medium and long term objectives that really articulate.

how are we going to achieve this? We know our endpoint, but where what are we looking at doing in the next five years? What are we looking at doing in the next 10 years? And how are we going to get there?

Well thank you for that, Kate. Kate, I should have asked you to introduce yourself a little bit. We know that you're at Rathbone's Green Bank, but we'd like to know a little bit more and I should have asked you that before you started speaking. So could you give us a little bit of background on yourself and Green Bank?

a specialist provider of of sustainable investment services. We run kind of bespoke investment portfolios, all of which have a a particular ethical or sustainable mandate applied to them. And in the context of of kind of net zero and and climate change in general, it's an issue that really we've been kind of grappling with for for kind of probably fifteen, twenty, twenty years. So well before it was almost the popular thing to be doing within the investment community.

But more recently, really focusing in on what net zero means, we announced our net zero pledges in October of last year. Given what I have just said, that is backed up by our our medium term targets and our our implementation plan for for how we're going to achieve that, not only across our own operations and so kind of our our own offices and our supply chains, but also importantly across our investment portfolios.

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Great, well thank you for that. So David, let me ask you, let me start with, I want to ask you the question, the net zero question, but first, um, could you introduce yourself and explain why your LinkedIn profile calls you a flawed earth steward? A bit left meal, but yeah, thanks, Jamie. Um, yeah, so I'm uh a senior counsel at Bateswell's Solicitors. Um, we uh

Our the first UK law firm to be B Corp, which I mentioned to give an indication of uh where we're coming from. A large part of our client base is purpose-driven businesses and social investors.

Uh, and we have a commitment to positive impact, which is why we um made some very clear climate commitments back in in 2019. As as Jamie's indicated, things are moving very fast in this space. So we're looking to to update those uh this year, sort of net zero for uh for lawyers and people who largely sit in offices uh isn't necessarily that hard to achieve. Um, but where we think the real interest lies and the real impact lies. for law firms and for other professional advisory firms.

is around assuming responsibility for the emissions related to the advice we're giving. And it's something again Mark Carney and and G fans are are already looking at in terms of financed emissions. It's something that's happening in the um the world of advertising with advertised emissions. And so we're um We're very keen to look at how we take responsibility for that sort of impact, what it means in terms of our relationships with clients.

Uh not so much about simply um sort of deciding who we who are who are good and bad and who we will will and won't work for, but how we work with clients and and sort of transition with them. to uh to being cleaner over time um as part of and and using our sort of sphere of influence.

uh in terms of both our own value chains and being part of our clients' value chains to get that sort of holistic approach that is the only way really we are collectively going to to to reach I mean net net zero I I circling back to the the original question, I think is is really an entry card for a commitment to a sustainable future. And one which uses the kind of the Bruntland definition of sustainability. So trying to ensure that there is the opportunity for future generations to have

uh as as sort of fulfilling and prosperous in existence as as as we do now and getting that balance. And I guess the the flawed stewardship part of uh of of what you alluded to, Jamie, is the a recognition that to some extent trying is the best we can do. I think, you know That we're um trying to be sustainable. Um, because in the you know in the world we're operating in, then I think it'd be just uh hostage to fortune to pretend that we're something that we're not.

and and can't be today, but we very, very much want to to work towards that and and work alongside uh others to do so. Very interesting, David. There's a couple things I'd love to come back to if we have a chance, but first I want to go to Carl and and uh you know you you alluded to a sustainable future. I'm just wondering, Carl, whether you could talk to uh a little bit about yourself and future planets. Uh thank you.

Wonderful to welcome you. Or to join you, sorry. Uh Future Planet is a community of change makers working to transform organisations and brands. So typically we welcome individuals cross-function. Sustainability, marketing, innovation, C suite. Typically, those are the individuals that you need to create change. You need those intervention points in different organizations. We also work systemically across sectors to connect up all the various different points that might unlock systems change.

For us, you know, connection into finance, private equity, but also philanthropy is fundamentally very useful. If we look at the world through many of the change makers in our community and beyond, we see ourselves as not just being within the future planet community, but all of us are on the journey together, you know, maybe it doesn't matter if someone's transforming ASOS or Nestle or Nando's or All Saints or whatever.

we're all working on this together is it's really a question of understanding where the core challenges are, where they're shared challenges, um, and understanding where we can support each other and what we may need. So We're running a programme at the moment to support change makers to

build climate transition plans, which is their first step. It's going to be required by law across business. So to have them in their business, what like what is your plan? How are you going to uh reduce emissions by fifty percent by twenty thirty? It's a it's an absolute target for everyone. And of course there's other elements around regenerative future or sustainable future, whatever those might be. But this is really one of their key focuses.

And what I'm seeing and what I'm noticing by listening to them is there is millions of challenges that they all face, whether that's be access to data, access to resource, all these different elements of challenge that they that they face to get there. Uh and so I think our our collective role is to understand more clearly what those challenges are and make sure that the allocation of capital meets those on a hierarchy of impact and a hierarchy of needs.

Um and so I suppose what I bring to this conversation is that sort of a little bit more intimate understanding about some of those individuals and what they're trying to affect change within their organization and what they might need. Because ultimately that's what we should be funding, because they can see the problems and they can see the challenges. And Carl, how much of your work at Future Planet is about net zero versus other topics?

I think that so typically someone working in a business has got a myriad of challenges to focus on from water all the way across. You we you you can't unpick it and say, Oh, let's just focus on net zero, let's just focus on having an equitable future, or let's just focus on the social part of ESG. You have to look at the complete spectrum. It gets um somewhat complex and big when one looks at the all the SDG goals. And so you have to have a level of focus.

But I would say that net zero is within everyone's sort of framework for decision making in everything they do should they're in everything they do or should be within that. in the same way that if we look at it the other way around, equity should be in the in the framework of how we look at net zero. So it's all interconnected. I think the biggest challenge that we face is are we effectively and efficiently

using our time and money to solve the most important challenges? And are we doing that in a way that is um gonna have lasting returns to David's point. You know, are we are we are we focused on that sustainable future or that regenerative future? Um and I think having a where my view is now is It's going beyond so net zero is great, but actually it's imagining that world beyond net zero. What are we all doing to build that world?

where we're giving back more than we're taking. And I think net zero is a pathway to get to there. But as I think you're perhaps alluding to, it's somewhat linear and a bit cold. Yeah. Very interesting. I mean I'm getting that from the three of you. I'm getting the sense that net zero is a subset of a larger issue around system change.

Yeah. And building a society that works for people. And somebody said you can't unpick, you can't, you can't extract net zero from that whole picture. It's it's a piece of it. Well what is oh sorry. What what is net zero, right? Like not net zero is reducing our emissions, right? What do emissions create? They create climate change. What does climate change create? It creates displacement, it creates all these other myriad of changes. So it's yeah, so that that's you know.

It's understanding that connection between the two. It's about framing it as well, isn't it? Because I think it it links to Carl what you were saying about you can't look at these issues in silos and and kind of try to solve each of these problems in in isolation, but it's also about Often when you approach net zero, people think it's all about kind of what will it cost and what will the negative impact be and kind of

what's going to be destroyed on the way to getting there. And we really need to switch that narrative and focus instead on what are the benefits of this, because they are kind of huge and kind of wide ranging uh kind of what what are the economic benefits, the social benefits, what are the the kind of those um across all of those different issues of sustainability, how can we draw that out and make a case for why it's almost a no-brainer to be adopting a net zero transition strategy and

kind of shifting it away from something like okay well the regulation suggests I ought to be doing this to this just makes complete business sense this makes Mae'n ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud. Mae'n ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud.

So it's shifting away from kind of siloed thinking to that really kind of integrated holistic view of sustainability. And again, it's I think we're gonna sound like a broken record, but that David was making of it's about creating a kind of sustainable world that ultimately we are all able to live in and want to live in.

So I wanna so Kate, I want to press you a little bit on um I mean I want to press you a little bit on constructing a portfolio, a net zero portfolio. So just I want to zero in on this. And I know you're you're all three of you are telling me that's not just about net zero, but I still when you talk about a net zero portfolio. What are you talking about? Are you talking about, so are you talking about a portfolio that is not exposed to carbon risk?

So it's it's a it's uh a portfolio composed of companies that don't have high emissions and therefore won't be subject to rising price of carbon. Or are you talking about a portfolio that actually He's looking to help solve the problem. So is it managing the risk inwards to the portfolio or is it managing the risk outwards towards society? What how do you construct a net zero portfolio? What does it look like?

One really important point uh just to pick up on at the start, when you're talking about net zero portfolios, you need to talk about it in the context of the end date for which you're aiming to be, be net zero. So it's all about the transition. It's not necessarily where we are today. But are you saying that we will have a portfolio that is net zero by by twenty fifty or twenty forty or whatever that target date will be?

And then it's about understanding what you have within that portfolio at the moment and what has a credible pathway to be able to be net zero by that target date. So it's not necessarily saying that you have to divest. kind of on day one from all high high impact um organisations. And actually when you think about the potential kind of real world emissions reductions.

There is actually a case for remaining invested in some of those higher impact companies and using your pressure as a shareholder to say.

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and really using all of those levers that you can as an investor or as another stakeholder to make sure that that change happens rather than simply shifting ownership of emissions that will continue and the negative impact on the world will will continue to happen. So kind of going back to then what it means for a a kind of net zero portfolio and how we go about measuring that. There's really two lenses through which you can look.

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there's a whole host of other considerations that really kind of within the frameworks it's still very much a work in progress. This is kind of frontier thinking within the investment communities. In terms of how we deal with uh kind of green financing capital allocation within the context of a portfolio and how um things like carbon offsets and uh kind of nature-based solutions for the actual removal of those emissions that you can't avoid uh will factor in at a at a portfolio level.

Okay, great. Well, thank you for that. David, I wanted to ask you, you said something interesting, which is using the law to create accountability. And I'm I'm and um I was looking at so Bates Wells uh recog uh recognized the climate emergency and biodiversity crisis in 2019. And I was looking at some of the observations you made, and one of them is that You want to use the law as a means to address the crisis. Can you elaborate on that?

Yeah, yeah, sure. So um we've been sort of And you mentioned and you mentioned ad for advertising as well. I'd I'd love to hear what you what you're up to. Okay. So so in terms of using the law specifically. We've been working with various clients to try and understand where there are potential um

blockages or threats uh which are inhibiting progress around some of these some of these issues. So um examples are at the moment we're we're looking at um the whole issue of of greenwashing around sustainable uh investment funds and how they are potentially being mislabeled and what needs to be done to uh uh make it possible for for for potential investors to uh to understand what what is sustainable and what isn't and what and w where the spectrum lies and

uh and all of that and try and risk avoiding a situation coming where anything that's slightly above benchmark is is deemed to be sustainable as opposed to what genuine sort of you know sort of OED sustainability amounts to.

Uh and looking at whether um pensions advice is is using uh pensions advisors are using the right sorts of models uh on which to give advice to to pension trustees looking at whether uh charity trustees um should have um uh whether this should actually be sort of um um guidance from the charity commission to to make it more explicit that they should be taking some of these these issues into account if they're existing for for public benefit.

So it's it's some of some of these trying to sort of like shift the frame within which um you know sort of people many of whom are investors are are operating and using law as a tool to do that. Um do you think let me ask you, do you think people I'm not talking about baseballs per se, but do you think people are going to start suing advertiser uh asset managers or financial service providers who overclaim on their sustainability? I I think um I think under under advertising law.

Well, we we're we're certainly looking at the scope for for for for doing that at the moment. Um yeah, because um that is very interesting. That's a scary concept. But but I mean, you know, we we're not it's not like we're we're not we're particularly gunning for

asset managers per se. I mean we s you know it maybe that that that lawyers also and accountants and all all all managed professional service providers are are going to become susceptible if they don't be proactive and try and understand sort of, you know, the sort of that simply by remaining within the pack doesn't necessarily protect you, if actually

the you know the the understanding of of what is needed is shifting in you know in the in the in the wider frame. Yeah. So so so what's happening um i in in the advertising world is that um they've they've managed to construct a model um whereby sort of you know rather rather than in the past uh advertisers would say well this is great you know we we've done our job really well because we've increased sales of a particular product by 100,000.

Well if that's particularly dirty products then you're you know you're not necessarily doing doing a lot of good in the in the bigger picture. So The the idea is not simply to say, well, you must stop advertising products, but it's how can you work with clients who are genuinely trying, who are on this transition to net zero, whatever language you want to you want to provide? How can you help them be more successful?

and you know in in that transition and bring your bring your you know their customers along to you know to adopt those greener practices if you like. Um and I think there's this there's lessons there. Obviously it's it's slightly different in law in terms of the direct relationship between the advice and the

the impact, but certainly in terms of how you can shift perceptions and how you can encourage and it will work within within um professional services as well. You only need to get a certain volume of yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n

constructive and generative approach. I mean I do think that financial advisors would really welcome more discipline, more more clarity, more discipline, more integrity on the way asset managers describe their financial products. I think that would be very much appreciated. I think they'd be a lot

for that. Carl, I wanted to go to you and ask you. Um I'm on a camp, I want to get your advice on something. I'm trying, I'm on a campaign to get rid of the term net zero and talk exclusively about the just transition to net zero. Which is to say, I think this picks up on some of the things that you were saying about um it's not just about

net zero, getting to net zero. It's about getting to net zero, but getting to net zero along the way, you have to figure out how the what that means for people, for communities, for um the planet. So what do you think? Is that a good idea? Uh I mean I think I think yes. It's a good idea, but I also think uh it's the same as should we remove sustainability and focus on ESG? Like different things mean different things to different people.

And once we've built up a level of momentum, we don't have time to argue the semantics over whether we should use one word or one way of explaining. Effectively, they're doing the same thing. So I do agree with you that we should be looking at through a just transition lens. But I also think that um we've done so much collaboration on getting net zero on the agenda of CEOs and of other leaders as well. It'd be at this point in time confusing to remove it completely.

I think we've got two. Okay, all right, good point. I appreciate your point. But I guess what I'm really saying He's that I don't think we should just be thinking about moving to net zero. We should be thinking about the entire package of social implications. Yeah, of course, hundred percent. So you're so we're quibbling over the branding, but you agree that it makes sense for us to be thinking in terms of moving of of

always thinking about the impact on communities and people. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm not quibbling over the branding. I'm quibb quibbling over The intricate connected engagement that's happened across all these myriad of individual systemic points. So you're right, you're it's it's simple to say branded, but actually it's

It's much deeper than that. And I think the biggest thing that I've noticed in the last year and a half is the level of ambition and permission to make change happen has just exeled.

exponentially. And so we need to go with that momentum because we're late, we're behind time, we need to move further forward faster. So I think, yeah, that that's where I Okay, and and then I think just to pick up on that point about the ambition, and I think that has been fantastic and we have seen an absolute kind of step change in the level of ambition that that kind of companies and and any stakeholder is pl is placing on net zero.

But to keep going back to this point, it's about then ensuring that it's grounded in reality. Because I think looking at um there's the net zero tracker and they look at the the kind of top two hundred two thousand organisations around the world. but only around half had a any form of plan to to put that in place. And then if you went down even further into the detail of it and looked at what proportion had best practice plans um in terms of implementation of net zero.

it it was really kind of in the minority. And I think that's where kind of this concept of of the kind of multi-stakeholder, the need for collaboration, the need for investors to use their voice, it's about holding those organizations accountable and saying, okay, you've made your you're really kind of Mae'n ymwneud â'r cymdeithasol o ymwneud â'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol.

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Because if it isn't, it's not gonna happen anyway. I mean, if you don't bring society along, then you're never gonna get to net zero because you're never gonna have the uh communal and political support to do with it. Yeah. Yeah. Unbelievably, we've run out of time.

And so what I'd I'd love to get a final closing thought from each of you, just uh something for people to um rattle around in their in their heads uh as they walk away from this. So David, could uh a closing thought? I I guess I would say, I mean, what one thing I'm very alive to as a lawyer is that I think that the way we're gonna make genuine progress over the next

coming coming sort of years is by embracing new and different ways of thinking. There's going to be a lot of uncertainty and vulnerability involved in that. And as um as a profession which is b based entirely on

being certain and definitive, that's uh that's slightly uncomfortable. But I think it's really important to uh to to go with that and be very honest and open about it. And I think you know we're we're all going to be in in that space. So it's gonna be uh you know a different sort of relationship. between advisors and the and their clients and that's something to be um not not to be a afraid of but embrace. That's great. Thanks for that. Kate. A closing thought.

I'd I'd echo that really and I think the point around uncertainty is is really important here and kind of tying that into Don't be afraid to be inquisitive, don't be afraid to ask those kind of so-called stupid questions, because really there is no no silly question in in this area. And it's a framework that that's really kind of being built as we're we're implementing it.

As Carl mentioned earlier, we don't have the luxury of time to wait until we've got a a kind of perfect way to address this. So we're all in this together, we're all learning. some people maybe slightly further along that journey than others, but I think it's kind of encouraging people to to push further, to dig a little bit deeper and and really understand.

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And learning and what's best practice in those, and perhaps taking that into yours. But I think specifically if we're looking at mobilizing finance. A lot of the challenges exist beyond the world that's sort of understanding portfolios. A lot of it's much deeper than that and a much more intricate understanding is required. So um I think getting out beyond

That's great. Thank you for that. And I can see John there ready to uh take over the take over the floor. Go ahead, John. Great, thank you. Um Carl, um Kate, um David, thank you very much. That was absolutely brilliant. And Jamie, as always, a super job uh chairing. Um, so I'm going to, I mean, that was just absolutely brilliant, but barely scratching the surface. So we will be following up.

So Jamie, final words of wisdom. And it was really neat to see someone already picking up on your language about just transition. So you're having some impact. Final words. Well, I don't deserve the final word, but since you asked, I would I would just yeah, the conclusion I'm taking is that you need to take a holistic approach to net zero. It's not a it's not a single issue. It's tied up with pretty much every other social and environmental issue. So you can't cherry pick.

You know, the climate action SDG or the affordable and clean energy. We have to work with all of the issues, all of the SDGs at the same time. And you also have to be, I think you have what what I'm hearing from these three is that you have to be holistic in working across all stakeholders. So it's

It's not just government or just investors or just citizens or just startups or just lawyers or just scientists. It really is everybody pulling together in kind of a cultural commitment to building a better planet. That's terrific. It's too bad we didn't have more time because there's a really interesting uh comment from Juliet Bellinger. Um sorry about the dark point, but how is Russia's invasion affecting oil prices, use of renewable energy, et cetera, et cetera.

Uh maybe that'll be for a start off our next conversation. Thank you very much, all Sophia. Thanks everybody. Thanks, everybody. I just want to say that we are um we're working with Carl on this because we see that there are um synergies between Philanthropy Impacts Network and Future Planets Network and how we need to be cross collaborating.

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