Professional Advisors and Fundraisers working together

Hello and welcome to the Philanthropy Impact podcast where we discuss all things philanthropy Hi, and welcome to Flat 3 Impact's Wallin' My Shoes Members Series, where we explore topics that are useful to you and your clients as they embark on their purpose driven...

and philanthropy. The discussion today is looking at how to bridge the gap between professional advisors and non profit high value to better meet client and donor need in their uh sorry, to better meet the needs of client and donors in their donor journey and additionally in their purpose driven wealth.

My name is Ophir Zahannig and I'm the Director of Membership and Development here at Flanfony Impact and the person to talk to if you'd like to know more about our training and how to make the most of your membership with us. I'll share my email in the chat or at the end of the session for those watching the recording. So that everyone can see. Chairing the session today, we welcome John.

Pepin, our CEO. Sorry John, I don't know what's gone in. It's because I'm waiting for my daughter to come home, sorry. Joining him, we welcome Sianne Haldane, Philanthropy Advisor and Chief Impact Office. from lunch. Jessica Maybanks from Philanthropy who is the Philanthropy and Partnerships Advisor at The Brook and Glenn Baker who's a private client and corporate and charity investment management at Charles Town.

Thank you all so much for joining today and again apologies for my my mishaps. I will now pass over to John who will do a sterling job and make up for it. Thanks, John. Thank you. Not a problem, Zophia. Welcome everyone. Thank you for joining.

Maybe we could uh start off by just uh taking a minute to uh if you could just describe your backgrounds and who who you are, etc. So Siane, can we start with you, please? Sure, thanks John. Um I'm Sienne Huldain, uh Chief Impact Officer at March and uh philanthropy advisor. Um, and a little bit of background on me, um, why this is an interesting topic for me in particular. Um, I started my career uh as a lawyer and um and then moved into a family office environment and then

change tracks quickly to become a high value fundraiser myself. Um, and I think in that process I really uh, you know, sort of learnt a lot about um obviously how a charity works and also knew from the outside, you know, sort of what some of the challenges were potentially for um uh an actual donor and also for those around them trying to facilitate philanthropy.

Um now at Munch, um as Chief Impact Officer, I work with our clients who are either individuals, corporates, or other types of entities, and I help uh them with their With their impact journeys, and that often involves philanthropy. Thank you very much. Jess. Hi there. Thank you so much for inviting me along today. It's a real honour to be sat here with you, Sianne and Jen and John yourself.

My name is Jessica Maybanks and I've been with a charity called Brook since about 2014 as their philanthropy and partnerships advisor. the welfare of working horses, donkeys and mules in some of the poorest countries around the world. to food and water and are vital livelihood assets for schools of community. So at Brook, I tend to work with our major donor supporters and family trusts and foundations really to support their investment journey at Brook.

um providing a sort of Rolls-Royce standard stewardship service for those existing clients. ond hefyd yn mynd i gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio. Thank you very much, Jessica. Glenn. Hello everyone, I'm I'm Glenn Baker and I work at the wealth management business Charles Stanley and I'm responsible for drawing together professional advisors across a range of disciplines.

uh for our across our client base. And we have twenty-three UK offices and and our client base is is diverse. So it ranges from multi-generational families and the next generation. We look after business owners and entrepreneurs, professionals in sports, music, entertainment, media, as well as family offices and charities and foundations and not-for-profits.

Um and why is this an interesting topic for me? Well, if I were to to point to one growing trend across clients and professional and trusted advisors, especially over the last two years. It is that of a growing interest in philanthropy in particular. um what that looks like for different people, how to go about it, again different for different circumstances and different situations. So it's a v it's a much debated topic and increasingly so.

Thank you, Glenn. So Philanthropy Impact has taken a strong interest to this whole area because whenever we uh had groups of high net worth or ultra-finite worth individuals. In the same room to talk about how we could grow philanthropy. There's at least always one or two or more sometimes, who basically said we uh have been alienated by fundraising.

They treat us as donors, come and get money and stuff. And then after a while we don't hear from them again. And then they come back when they want more money. We really would like to be treated as clients and have our needs met. Uh from an advisor's perspective, uh quite often there would be issues because many uh fundraisers would see them. I sound really negative about fundraisers, don't I? I don't really mean to be because I have bit done that. Well maybe that's why I'm negative.

Um uh so um uh uh advisors are seen sometimes by fundraisers as a source of Of clients and people to raise money from. And so there's some issues around that. So we established specialized training programs for high-value fundraisers to. Teach them how to treat their clients as sort of donors as clients, but also how to become trusted partners with professional advice.

We also have training for advisors about to follow up on what Glenn was saying about how to support their clients around their donor journey. So Cien, starting with you. How can high value major donor Was I that bad? Yeah, jumping off. Sorry about that. I guess I should turn off my phone, shouldn't I? Um It's off. Oh okay, well that's good. Um anyway, so yeah, and let's start all over again. Yes. Uh how can major donor um high value fundraisers and professional advisors

work together. And could you share some of your experiences when you were doing that at Cancer Research UK and what some of the benefits were?

Mm, absolutely. So yeah, as John mentioned, Philanthropy Impact does offer some training and I'm involved with this training. And I was really excited when John first asked if I wanted to, you know, sort of help deliver this. This training with Philanthropy Impact because

I really believe that I could see, you know, sort of in the work that I was doing at Cancer Research EK. And as I say, just drawing on my, you know, sort of previous experience also from the advisor perspective, you know, how important it was for um for high value fundraisers just to be able to, you know, sort of work in a very sort of collegial way as peers with professional advisors and very much that they could, you know, sort of be doing this ultimately because

You have the same you have the same sort of clients. You're both serving high value audiences. And really then it was around for me, um, you know, sort of just really ensuring that um you know, sort of you're making sure that you're both working as relationship managers, you're helping your clients to achieve their philanthropic goals. That's ultimately what you're trying to do together.

And and and really um, you know, sort of just drawing on from what Glenn was saying, how you can support the professional advisors is really helping them understand a little bit more about, you know, sort of how it is to interact with a charity, what will what can their clients expect?

um, you know, sort of really helping them understand a little bit more of that sort of process. Um and likewise with uh your your clients, your supporters, it's really helping them, you know, also understand um you know, what they can expect from the whole process and and really supporting them along the way, not just I think ultimately trying to make a sale.

It's about taking a step back and really listening to them, understanding what they're trying to achieve and doing that the best way that you can and using a network approach to do that. So that's why it's really important about building those relationships, working together with. the professional advisors who are going to be delivering on some of the more sort of technical aspects of that work.

So when you were doing that, that was pretty radical. Can you give an example of how it was really effective with one of your clients? Yeah, absolutely. So um Someone that I work quite closely with had a really, you know, specific idea about um what she wanted to achieve.

Um, you know, when she was working with with us uh and before committing to making a donation, you know, she did quite a lot of work. She called it her due diligence um on the organization. And it was just really, you know, sort of giving her as much information as she needed, you know, from Cancer Research UK at that stage to help her do her due diligence.

Um, and and helping, asking as many questions to just sort of refine, you know, where where she was really, you know, sort of passionate, really understanding, you know, what her objectives and motivations were. Um and then also understanding where she was, you know, sort of at at her stage of her life and how then we could sort of support her in the best possible way and also helping her, I guess, then ultimately give in a way that was going to work best for her.

And just through really, you know, sort of taking my time with her and working with her in that way, she also was. you know, sort of interested to work with professional advisors who could help her achieve that objective. So I introduced her to um a couple of different uh professionals and then she made a choice with who she wanted to obviously work with at that stage um to help her achieve what she was looking to do. And did she uh increase her giving?

She did, yep. So the relationship was an ongoing one. And um yeah, absolutely. She not only her giving, but her overall engagement with the organization. And I think that's important too. um is because of that, you know, real relationship that we built. Um, it wasn't just about her giving uh financially to the organization. She had, you know, sort of time.

She had skills that she could also, you know, sort of help support the organization with. So it was really about that overall engagement with her.

So um uh Glenn Cien is talking about uh major donor fundraisers supporting their clients in effect on their donor journey and working with professional advisors. But from a professional advisor perspective. Should pr all professional advisors, whether they're private banks, legal, uh wealth advisors, et cetera, et cetera, should they be provide playing a role in supporting their clients on their donor and social impact investment journey?

Where appropriate, the answer is most definitely yes, I would say. I think the question of support is a very interesting one, isn't it? The short answer is a professional advisor actually has a lot of support that they can give. although they may not necessarily realise it. I mean

If you'll let me, John, if I sort of think this through with us for for a second or two, I can give us a few examples. Um a professional advisor can as has already been said, can provide you know connections and connectivity. which in turn can obviously lead to donor opportunities, for instance, but more generally provide contacts and networks that can strengthen and enhance a donor journey.

uh providing further validation for instance on on that journey. But more than this, a professional provider advisor can provide another view of life. This could be around corporate rigour or or the application of that, or it could be institutional processes, for instance. But this this other view of life can be a great support to donors.

in broadening their horizons and and seeing what what they are attempting to do and achieve from from another point of view. That's very important, I would suggest. It's very healthy, that ability to see one's purpose or mission from another point of view. Um and then added to that of course a a professional advisor.

should be able to, well definitely if they're a professional advisor, should be able to give access to specialist knowledge. And again, this is a sort of a hidden gem, but almost sort of staring us in the face. Um this is where things can become very creative in assisting clients.

um and those seeking donors to to access and leverage that knowledge, whatever it might be. But the fact is that the associated intellectual prism, if you want to call it that, around specialist knowledge that a pro the professional will have. can in some way uh either open a new door, enhance a way of thinking, or provide intellectual capital. And I think those are some of the sort of key areas of support.

Do you have to depend upon other people? Because we found in our research there's twenty three distinct services that someone needs on their donor journey, for example. And so no professional advisor will have expertise in all of them, but should have some understanding of what they are. Um, so do you have to use other people uh sometimes in your practice?

You do, absolutely. So so yes. Um so the ability is to um the ability to provide a sort of overall collaborative approach where you are pulling in different specialists for specific areas, but the overall journey is still maintained, um, is obviously essential. Otherwise you can find yourself down all all manner of rabbit holes and misdirections and missteps, of course, yeah.

It's interesting because in those conversations I mentioned where we have uh wealthy people in the same room. Many of them talk about the fact that uh when they first started off on their journey, they failed. And it was quite discouraging. And what we're finding, and I don't know if you're finding the same thing, but the failure rate sort of drops with the their advisors help.

And our research showed also that if their advisors support them on their donor journey, they tend to give 17 times more a year, so between 19,000 and 335,000. So are you finding that as well? Definitely. So I think there there is a there is a shift in that, isn't there? And there's an increase, I think, in um productivity and the and and more favorable outcomes.

Um I think it's also interesting, John, if I might, to sort of if we just think also why why that is and why we're almost having this conversation now in sort of twenty twenty. Um and and I know this is one of my sort of key areas I always like to discuss, but it has a lot to do, that shift for the better has a lot to do with the unraveling of social emotional intelligence.

Um, just very quickly on that, where we think about it. We we now live in a world that is so much more empathetic. Now, I I admit there's still some way to go, of course, I do admit that. But one of the impulses here.

is if if you think back to the end of the say the twentieth century, you know, the dominant mindset um in in the West at least was was one of Mae'n meddwl bod wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'

Rather, we are so much more aware of how vulnerable we actually all are and can become. And my point here, the reason I mention this is professional advisors generally are very switched on to that, or they should be, but but typically they are.

And that impulse is embedded deeply, I think, in the complexity of the work that they carry out for their clients and the help that they can give. So it's so there's a lot going on here, I think, as a background, as a context, which I think we should be mindful. Interesting. Uh uh w what we're finding, uh, even in conversations I've had just in the last day or so, is a lot of uh young people, young wealthy people. So next gen, Gen Z, whatever. are really frustrated with their advisors.

um, because they want to in fact live their values um and motivations, et cetera. And they want to do that either through philanthropy and or uh impact investing. Are you finding uh uh there's kind pressure coming from clients to do this as well, not just from advice? No, definitely. So so I think if you look at um the sort of difference between the demographics in terms of generational um

the generations that there are differences, definitely. I mean their their intentions might be the same. So it may well be that, you know, I want to help tackle climate change or I want to help tackle the education gap, whatever it might be. But broadly, um

Broadly speaking, the the sort of the methodology and approach between the generations is different. I mean, if just very quickly, if you sort of think about that, um, let's take one approach. Is it going to be sort of you know, eating less meat and going vag vegan for for for You know, it's it's not it's it's likely that people who are who are teenagers or in their twenties are much more open to considering becoming vegans, for instance, than those demographically over 60 years of age.

Um, so I mean if it is even more endemic than that. If you look at uh generation alpha, for instance, so you know, those that are under those under ten year olds who live among us. This is already a generation that are developing very strong views against killing animals to eat them, for instance.

um and so you've got a whole generation of eco-warriors on its way. But my point is their approach will likely be very different from historical approaches, even from the approaches that you've just mentioned, John, and the clients that you you're talking to. So yes, there are differences definitely.

Uh that sort of leads us nicely into uh Jessica um and um terms of what your mission is, um, but I don't think empathy is an issue for charity so much. But what you're looking at is a shift in the culture and behavior of major donor fundraisers. So what makes a major donor fundraiser a good advisor, good professional advisor? Why become a partner with professional advisors from your perspective?

Well actually, John, I think you know what Glenn said about empathy is absolutely crucial. I think, you know, to be um a good major donor fundraiser and to be a good advisor, you have to have the you know a a strong ability to empathize. And first and foremost, I guess part of that is being a good listener as well.

Mae'n gwybod, mae'n gwybod a chyfnod a chyfnod yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol quite a few years ago, um, where the trainers suggested that a client meeting, um, when the client spoke eighty percent of the time and you spoke the remaining twenty.

um was a success. And you know, I think that's really good advice. In order to advise, you need to start by listening and you need to start by asking questions, which can then help you tailor your relationship with a client so it's bespoke. I think as well to be a good sort of major donor fundraiser slash advisor, you have to have a good knowledge.

Of not only your area of specialism, which I guess goes without saying, but also how that fits into global frameworks like the Sustainable Development Goals or like the concept of One Health. or the sort of ESG framework so that you can make your work relevant to other people and put it in context for them as well. sort of professional karma, I guess, business karma. Um, I guess most things in life it yes it's all swings around about.

And also having your own preset or sort of predefined standards and values that you abide by is also important because in our business personal credibility builds trust. And if you know, for example, y if you say you're gonna do something, do it and do it on time, always be exceptionally respectful of other people's time too, because we know how flat out.

Mae'n ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl. So you would be in effect a philanthropy advisor. Does that mean you put your clients' needs first?

I think you have to. I think that's really the only option if you're going to sort of attract investment. There's absolutely no point in trying to convince someone that they should invest in something they have no interest in or that doesn't align with their values. So I think that yes, you you have to kind of put um or or really listen and put the needs of your your clients first. Yeah. So what happens then if uh uh uh they're not interested

in what you're doing and what your organization's doing. Uh what do you do in that case? I absolutely think that you have to know when to walk away. That that I'd say that first and foremost, you know, it's not going to Brooke's work is not going to be of interest to to everyone, but uh going back to that sort of business karma as well. I think, you know, going out your way to help people, even as I said, even if there's nothing in it for you, if there's something you can do for someone else.

then even if that person might not directly wish to support Brooke or Brook's outcomes, So you don't totally walk away, you help them find a way to uh meet their values and uh uh uh live their uh values. Yeah, a hundred percent. So, you know, in recent years, I guess the way we've worked with professional advisors has evolved quite a lot. You know, originally we set out to showcase Brooks' work. to target advisors, to targeted advisors by way of delivering a presentation.

So that our work was then on their radar. And that was really the overriding aim. And yes, we had some successes and some positive outcomes.

But we've since realized that a much more kind of organic, bespoke way of working is far more effective. And that might mean actually, you know, working with the professional advisor to pinpoint very specific ways in which they might like to assist you with their skills and expertise, things that they might not realize that they're even able to do, but that would give them, you know, huge pride in being able to to work in that way.

So yeah, I think that it sometimes you just have to walk walk away, other times it is about being creative. Yeah.

Okay. Uh Siane, um where do you start to work with advisors? Because we know that advisors sort of hesitate quite a bit around being around fundraisers. And so where do you start to build up those relationships? Yeah, so I think um, you know, just saying where uh one of going back to one of the points that Jessica raised was it's about you understanding how your organization fits into a much wider universe. And I think if you start from there, it's about, you know, um really sort of

um looking at how you can tap into that wider universe and and actually learn about it from a starting point. So, you know, sort of learning and one way of learning is obviously, you know, sort of attending different types of sessions. Obviously Philanthropy Impact is a good place to start.

And Glenn will probably share. I'm sure Charles Stanley do lots of great events also where they're on charity law or different aspects that would be really interesting for fundraisers also to attend. So that's a good way to start building your network plus understanding that wider universe. So I think it's really from growing growing there with um, you know, first of all building out your own knowledge and then in that way you're also um, you know, building out your network.

um and and really sort of scaling it from that. So that would be my advice is starting in that way um and and building out your your relationships and also within your organization. Also looking at where you already have those connections with professional advisors because you will through either your supporters.

or through some of your other stakeholders that you're already working with. You know, if you've got a legacies team, if you've got a corporate partnerships team, you're likely to already be working with some sorts of professional advisors too. Okay, thank you. Um so Glenn, um now that uh you know we've had these discussions around the role of special advisors, is this something that you might look at as a resource to help you and help your clients on their donor journey?

Well d uh absolutely, yes, I d I think that is the case. Um I mean there are always two s at least two sides to every story, aren't there? Um and and generally, you know, if we're being honest, professional advisors don't tend to always involve um philanthropy advisors um with with their clients or keep them around. And there is all sorts of reasons for that. And maybe it's not a particularly well trodden path

But I think one one key area that the that high value donor fundraisers can bring to clients is is almost certainly an awareness and a great deal of insight. And that's incredibly valuable. And I think demonstrating that to clients. um is is is essential and crucial. I mean, awareness and experience I'm talking about in terms of unlocking and driving forward. And part of the reason I suppose their contribution would be and is so important.

um is because we should remember that there's still still a lot of work to be done on on how our sort of growing awareness of and and the ability to access pots of wealth, for instance, where they exist. um is correlated, correlated with with the impact economy. So where that shift across the scale towards impact investing and then obviously onto philanthropy is still an evolving process.

um in the mindset of of many, many, if not most clients really. So so in other words, what I'm saying, I definitely agree that this this sort of narrow bridge between sort of finance first and and impact first. Um it's a it's a delicate balancing act and and that's that's where higher value major donor fundraisers have have a big part to play definitely in the educative part. It's interesting because of course the ideal for a professional advisor is to be the first call for clients.

Um and uh the same thing applied for Benciane's example. Uh Jessica, I noticed we only have two minutes left and Sophia's come on. Um now I know what it feels like to have someone come on in the middle of a conversation that's like to keep going for quite a while. Um But Jessica, three seconds. First call, there are other issues though, internally, because it means a change in the KPIs and the culture and behavior within organizations' expectations.

Can you give us thirty seconds about what that is and how you deal with it? Um, and that has to change if you're going to be able to work with not only professional advisors successfully, but obviously, you know, major donor fundraising. We know it takes a minimum of sort of

18 months to develop a really meaningful relationship with someone where they are deeply engaged in your cause and give in a meaningful way. So absolutely changing KPIs around you know opportunities and networking and working with and professional advisors in a in a way that is of mutual benefit is very important, I think.

Fascinating. Thank you very much, uh Jessica, uh Cien and Glenn. Over to you, Zophia. John, are you happy for us, even though we've done the 30 minutes, to do a 30 seconds of wisdom? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so at this point we always ask for what's the takeaway you'd like people to take from this?

I'm gonna tell start with Sianne on this one, as she's our training facilitator. Um I think it's all about those long-term sustainable relationships and really understanding needs. Thank you. And Jessica. Um, I think it's a pretty tough time for um major donor fundraisers, but I do think it's exciting. I think that, you know, the pandemic, as we all know, has shaken things up and changed perceptions and it's something we can capitalise on. And over to you, Glenn.

Yeah, well I mean just almost sort of encapsulating the what's just been said really, but in terms I I think the t key takeaway is Never underestimate sort of connections and connectivity. Um I think the future is really bright when you when you sort of go down those those routes because you can unlock so much. um all kinds of wisdom and and and sort of know-how does exist out there, probably in the people that you already know. And so driving that forward, I think, is is is to be encouraged.

Thank you. And final word to you, John. Um uh we have three really excellent examples of people who have um uh built relationships. And who have done it to the benefit of their organizations and more importantly, to the benefit of their clients and their clients' families. So thank you for leading the way to all three of you. Yeah, thank you everybody. That was just the end then my daughter's come in. So sorry, it's like the final end to this.

Funday that I've had is a nightmare. But that was a brilliant session and I really loved the idea of the creativity that fundraisers can bring to the the day. because um that's certainly something that I felt was really important when I was a major donor fundraiser, was how I can make this fun for for the donors. So thank you for that. And we shared a link to the training in this in the

chat but if you want to know more about that please do get in touch with me. I'm happy to talk through what we do and why we do it and how it can be of benefit to you. Um and also the announcements I had to make. We've got Walking Machines next week, as normal, but also our magazine, part two, which is to measure or to not measure.

is out today, I think, or at least you should be able to find it on our website. But thank you very much, all of you, today, and apologies again for my slightly distracted behaviour. And I will see you all next week. Thank you.