Policies and Resources in Philanthropy

Hello and welcome to the Philanthropy Impact Podcast. Listen on for insights into philanthropy, impact investing and sustainability. Welcome everyone to another session of Walking My Shoes where today our board member Keris Gardner will be discussing the topic policies and resources with our expert panel. My name is Sophia Sahanik and I'm the Director of Membership and Development at Philanthropy Impact.

and the moderator for this series, which has been established to support you, the trusted professional advisor, in giving your clients best practice advice, both in their philanthropy journeys and their purpose-driven wealth strategies. It is important that you're empowered with knowledge for your clients, but it is equally important that you understand where to signpost to and where to find trusted partners for your.

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If you have them. This leads me to fully introduce our chair for today. It's Keris Gardner, who's the partner at Maurice Turner Gardner. Keris is also chair of our public affairs. Joining Keris, we welcome fellow board member Kath Dove, who's the co-founder of the Beacon Collaborative, and Pippa Garland, partner at Russell Cook, and Nicole Sykes, Director of Policy and Communication.

at Proboeconomics who we are collaborating collaborating with on this. Collaborating with. What a word. Okay, thank you all for joining us today. And I will hand over now to you, Caris, to make Thank you very much.

Indeed, Zopia. Welcome everybody. Thank you very much for joining the webinar today. We hope that you'll go away with a lot of food for thought because we've certainly been thinking hard about this for you. Remember that the vision, shall we say, of philanthropy impact. is, and I will read it out because it's not easy to get your tongue around. John can do it better than me, I think. It's a world where individuals and families engage in values driven investment.

And philanthropy supported by professional advisors. And our mission is actually to increase. philanthropic giving, but with the help of and support of professional advisors. So that's really where we are coming from. And the webinar today is intended to investigate how By collaborating with government, by improving, introducing new policies that might help to enhance, grow philanthropic giving, that we might be able to achieve. One major um ins incentive, which is to increase

The quantity of philanthropic giving from all sectors of society. Now, I say that it's not meant to be a glib comment, but it's meant to say that. There's been a lot of work done in terms of statistics recently. showing that uh philanthropy of charitable donations as a whole have actually been decreasing, not increasing over the years. It even even despite the COVID increase.

uh the the trend seems to be downwards. Now I'm happy to be corrected on that if uh you know for example Nicole or Kath know differently, but it depends on which reports you read as to where where philanthropy is heading at the moment. So one the very first thing we have to do is stop that downward trend, it seems to me. And of course the whole purpose of uh the talk today is can we find some policy incentive? Help increase.

uh uh ph philanthropic giving across the board. So um Without more ado, I'll I'll I'll start uh with a few questions because we have such an expert panel here that uh it would be a shame for me to do any more talking than I have to. sy'n gweithwyr sy'n gweithwyr sy'n gweithwyr sy'n gweithwyr sy'n gweithwyr sy'n gweithwyr sy'n gweithwyr sy'n gweithwyr?

Uh yeah, that is a that is a broad question. And I think it's fair to say that um it's sort of if you look at the relationship between government and and the third sector and And Fatherby, it's very broad because the social sector does have an impact on pretty much everything. Um, if you want to improve uh jobs and and getting people back to work at this moment in time, one of the biggest barriers is mental health.

So you need charities that are great at mental health and employment um which which we have rather than services. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw. um if you're looking at the environment and and solving climate change, you know, there is no there is no issue in summary that that government wants to solve that charities and and and philanthropists aren't also working on themselves.

Um, I think we probably see three challenges in that relationship. We did um a big survey, um, surveying MPs, councillors, um civil servants had about six hundred respondents last year. Um and we identified three challenges. And one is a knowledge gap.

um on both sides of the fence, that sort of charities and community groups don't understand enough about the structures and processes for policy making. So they struggle to make the biggest impact that they can. And then also that many policymakers don't understand how charities and philanthropy work.

Secondly, is is around skepticism around evidence and campaigning and also some skepticism around the quality of services that charities deliver. Um so really a lot of emphasis around how can charities improve their measurement and and their evidence and and trust in that. And then there are some, I'd say, some genuine disagreements between some bits of the policymaker kind of world, particularly I would say, around conservative MPs.

about the role of charities in campaigning if they receive public funds and that being quite a a touchstone issue in in in many cases. very important on every issue, but but there are some challenges that need to be overcome to really make the most out of the potential policymakers and charities have when working together. Thank you. Kath, did you have anything to add to that?

I I think that's an excellent summary. No, I think that's absolutely right. And I mean obviously a lot of our work is focusing on on the knowledge gap and uh knowledge gap not just between charities and government but between philanthropists and charities and philanthropists and government. You know, each side needs to know what the other does and what it can do and how they can work together. It seems to me fairly fundamental to how do we move for forward with collaboration.

Thank you. Pippa, did you want to add anything from the perspective of the professional advisor? Because of course what you and I see as professional advisors can be a different perspective again from the pro bono economics and beacon collaborative. P perspectives. Rydyn ni'n meddwl, mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau.

But in terms of that knowledge gap, speaking as a professional advisor. Sometimes interacting with government can be quite daunting and very uh cost intensive, both time and for example legal cost, you know, going through that procurement process. You need a lot of specialist knowledge. It's often very tight type turnaround time, so you can't necessarily get into partnerships.

And to go through, for example, you know, government terms and conditions on overseas AIDS, you you need legal advice. And it's perhaps a less familiar way of working to some charities that can enjoy quite informal collaborations with other, for example, charity partners. going through that very uh regulated, highly legalistic um way of working. I think that that can add as a bar act as a barrier as well. I think Nicole, picking up on your points about some of the um

The views perhaps of some MPs about charities and the role they play in civil society. I think I think that's right. I think charities are being targeted by a few uh particularly to be honest c conservative MPs at the moment, if they kind of speak up.

Um I think we saw recently in maternity action, their chief executive um had some tweets about the scope of an advisory board that they'd been invited onto by the government and they swiftly got uninvited. So Understanding that key role that charity plays and has always always played in speaking up on societal issues and the relationship that uh

has with with government and the government of the day, I think, is perhaps silencing charities as well and and inhibiting that kind of free partnership between them. Yeah, it's very interesting. So it sounds as though the um uh in the uh leavers of government, shall we say, also need educating uh the other way so that um they're not dissing.

um comments from charities when it doesn't suit their political purposes because um you know this this is that is not the point of philanthropy and charity but but Obviously, we should be able to speak truth to power. And I've always believed in that. So how should charities engage with policymakers then? What what what would be your uh your recommendations, Nicole? Do you have a uh a view on that?

Yeah, absolutely. So the point on evidence is really important and the more you can bring evidence to the table. But I think it's fair to say that different kinds of policymaker need to be engaged with in different ways. And deal with information differently. So civil servants, for example, love a report.

If you've got a nice quotable statistic in a report that they can pull into their briefing, that works for them. You know, you've got to think about what's important for them, briefing their minister, there we go. Um, and they also really value one-to-one conversations, you know, behind closed doors. If you look at MPs, you know, there are differences between conservative and Labour MPs on this. Conservative MPs, their favorite way to be engaged with a charity is at an event.

Um, Labour MPs uh actually spend a lot of time on charities websites apparently. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n It's how can you make this relevant to their constituency and to the stated interests that they have? They are I am very, very strongly against 38 Degrees style e-mails and blitz campaigns. I'm not going to lie that some of those campaigns are effective.

Mae'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n sylw'n mynd. being targeted in in who you're reaching out to and make it relevant to their constituencies is is is the advice I'd give charities looking to look into the campaign.

Thank you. Kath, I know you've had a lot of uh dealings with um political, um, the political side of things, um, government representatives and so on. What would you say in terms of how best charities might engage? In this area. Mae'n llawer o bwysig, mae'n llawer o bwysig, mae'n llawer o bwysig, mae'n llawer o bwysig. Mae'n llawer o bwysig, mae'n llawer o bwysig, mae'n llawer o bwysig. Mae'n llawer o bwysig, mae'n llawer o bwysig. Mae'n llawer o bwysig, mae'n llawer o bwysig.

You know, we know that government is interested in leveling up. Well, you know, surprise, surprise, social impact organisations also want to see fairer, better society across the whole of the nation. So we have a line interest, we have potentially a shared vision. You know, there's lots of opportunity. So what could we do collectively, you know, government and charities and local authorities, local community groups and philanthropy?

a'i gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, But again, we know that match funding works. It's been proven in the UK to have a long-lasting dynamic change in the way that charities can raise funding and it's another way of aligning everyone's interests around a common theme.

So I think the key thing is if you want to get that collaboration in place, you have to identify those areas of common interest. ac yn ymwneud bod pawb sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n Yeah, I I I like that idea of match funding. Um, are there any other recommendations that um

You've come up with either Beacon or Pro Bono Economics or Pippa, have you c that you've come across to um help in this area? For example, I know we, the professional advisors, always talk about tax incentives and whether you wanted to have a quick word about that while we've got a moment a few moments, uh Pippa. Yeah, so I think um I suppose I probably see tax incentives as more of a a nud.

Um, so they should be uh incentivising, but they're never going to be the the driving factor, I don't think. If someone's gonna give away a hundred pounds, but they'll get uh 40 pounds, but they've still given away 60 pounds. Um they're never gonna be better off through it.

Some of the charges I find leveled at philanthropy I find particularly frustrating along those lines. You know, they're just doing it for the tax advantages. Um so in a way I don't like to concentrate too too much on the tax incentives. Having said that, I do think there are some ways in which uh it could be tweaks. I think with social investment in particular, the the tax advantages are are not not well understood, um including by many professional advisors.

And there are potentials, I think, to bring things across. I know the charity remained a gift. is an idea that's been floated for a while and that would essentially allow someone to to give away money but also be able to benefit from money. And I think when we're seeing at the moment people feeling increasingly um uncomfortable on an edge about their own personal financial positions, they're going to be more

um reluctance to give money away and and what can we do to to counteract that? Yeah. I suppose what Everyone on the listening in to the webinar today would love to know is how do we actually get government, whichever department we're talking about here, to listen.

and take on board what we're saying and our recommendations uh in all of this. Does anyone have any ideas? Kath, you you were nodding your head, as was Nicole. I know and I know you both are very experienced in this area. Nicole, I'm going to defer to you on this one and then pick up. I would say there are Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.

Realistically, if you think about the process of how it works, if you come with a proposal, the next question that's always going to come from civil service or or from government is. What's the benefit it's gonna be? How do I stand this up to the Treasury in terms of in terms of the cost implications? So number one is is your evidence?

Rwy'n credu, mae'n ymwneud â'i gweithredu, ac mae'n ymwneud â'i gweithredu ar gyfer ymwneud â'i gweithredu. Mae'n ymwneud â'i gweithredu, ac mae'n ymwneud â'i gweithredu, mae'n ymwneud â'i gweithredu. Um uh but relationships is how how the world works. Um third I would say is the community that you build and the support that you have. um uh for your proposal. If you're coming in as a as a solo flyer. Um your proposal better be great.

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. And the fourth the fourth thing I I I would I would really stress is that understanding

o beth sy'n bwysig iawn i mewn gwirionedd. Mae'n bwysig iawn i mewn gwirionedd yn ymwneud â'r newyddion yn ymwneud â'r newyddion yn ymwneud â'r newyddion yn ymwneud â'r newyddion yn ymwneud â'r newyddion yn ymwneud â'r newyddion yn ymwneud â'r newyddion yn ymwneud â'r newyddion yn ymwneud â'r newyddion yn ymwneud â'r newyddion. But, you know, for example, we're talking about tax tax incentives. Mae'n gwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

you're going to have to be incredibly aware of of the financial pressure that they're under and and do everything that you can to explain where that might money might come from and and and really like what are the benefits that can be had, because I can't emphasize enough. you do have an uphill battle and you need to make sure that you have all of those factors in place and you're putting it in their language and and you understand the stresses and challenges that money is always under.

Yes, absolutely. But but I know it's a major battle because you know, whenever um any uh you hear anyone who's tried to get anything through to government, um it's been very difficult. And uh if it does get as far as being read or onto the desk of somebody, it tends to be kicked into the long grass. What what is what is your experience or how would you how could how could you sort of say we could address these challenges if you if you have any ideas on that?

Gosh, I think I'm gonna have to defer on this one. I think I think reading like listening to Nicole, you you realise, you know, this is quite a specialist area. to s to say to a charity, right, off you go, let's get this on someone's desk, it's it is a long term investment and you know, do you need to bring in external advisors or hire someone who's got this specific knowledge within your charity? Because otherwise it feels like Yes, you rely on contacts and connections, but in

in this age of um increasing awareness of kind of a quality of access, that feels quite uncomfortable to just say it's just about connections. You know, who's realistically got those connections to people in power? It's gonna be a certain type of person. So Yeah, I I'm throwing it back to Nicole and Kath, I'm afraid, on that one. Well, you're a lucky charity indeed if you have a connection on your board, for example, on your board of trustees or something of that nature.

uh who could actually um intervene for you in some way. But Kath, I know we've talked before about um the idea of perhaps a philanthropy commissioner. Would that be at all helpful, do you think, if we had like one point of contact that uh some you who would Who genuinely had as his or her portfolio um the um requirement to

is genuinely looked at, embedded in, woven into the fabric of all government departments. Is that something that might help work? Or are we sort of, is it is it wishful thinking on this point? Well who knows if it's wishful thinking, but the idea would be that it would have someone in the civil service. So it may you know commissioner is a kind of big catchal term, but somebody who can take it as their role to understand financial.

and giving and how that interacts with the charity sector and what is the role of incentives. And actually I would go beyond incentives, Pippa. I'd say, you know, incentives are just one part of the package of enablement that we need. We don't have a regime for philanthropy in the UK. We have a regime for charitable giving. And so philanthropists have to fit within that regime and that creates challenges and frictions and problems. And you know, can someone help us to look at those challenges?

You know, if we were able within um you know within the civil service to get somebody who has the responsibility for understanding this stuff. then perhaps if we wanted to get much funding off the ground they could liaise with whichever department and the treasury to help us to develop that kind of scheme.

neu yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw. So that's the concept. It's an enabling role within the civil service. In some ways it kind of goes back to where we were with the Cabinet Office a few years ago. But you know, the idea is we need someone who has that long-term view.

Mae Pippa yn ddweud, mae'n ddweud yn ddweud hynny'n ddweud hynny. Mae'n ddweud hynny'n ddweud hynny'n ddweud hynny'n ddweud hynny'n ddweud hynny'n ddweud. So, can we get a point of contact where that doesn't change, where there is consistency, and hopefully channel some of the sort of broader ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hynny.

Nicole, uh well, all of you actually, do you think me the media might have a a role to play in all of this in terms of bringing this or philanthropy, whatever you want to call it, uh, to the attention of um those in power. Is that a is that a a way forward potentially?

Well, my view on the media is that, you know, the responsibility of media in the context of philanthropy has always been to hold people to account. And you see that in the narrative around philanthropy that's developing in in in the UK press.

You know, where the media and government interaction could be quite positive is for example if ymwneud â philanthropy ymwneud â philanthropy ymwneud â philanthropy ymwneud â philanthropy ymwneud â philanthropus ymwneud â philanthropus ymwneud â philanthropus ymwneud â philanthropus ymwneud â philanthropus. the holding to account role that of course is kind of central to the way that the media operates. Yeah, I see what you mean. Nicole, did you have have anything on that you wanted to say?

Yes, so personally I think um the media absolutely does um have a role to play and I'd I'd support everything that Kath just said. Mae'n bwysig yn ymwneud yn ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r pethau. You know, s similar to what I was saying earlier, it crosses a lot of news.

Rydyn ni'n meddwl, mae'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol. um uh parts of you know FT Advisor may take stuff around wealth advisors. It's but it's it's a very challenging environment. No one is writing regularly about this stuff.

JK Rowling gives a lot of money to charities. You know, it's it's very celebrity based. Um so making stuff that's urgent and people-based and and newsworthy, making philanthropy newsworthy is hard. Good point. Pippa, sorry to uh go the wrong way at that point. No, no, not at all. I think probably just echoing, you know, my experiences with the media and charity in Philanthropy at the moment is almost wholly negative. Um and it comes into my advice with charities now number one is almost

Daily Mail Sniff test. Is this going to be a headline? Because if it is going to be a headline, it will be negative. because that's the way journalists view the media at the moment. And where there's a negative press story, there's often a negative regulatory intervention as well. So at the moment that's how I see the media bringing in power. It's it's almost in a wholly negative way. The this Sunday there was the uh the giving list um alongside the sometimes uh rich list.

More things like that, kind of I suppose highlighting and celebrating generosity, but also What what does generous look like in the UK? And getting an understanding of that across to people, I think, might be helpful in terms of motivating giving. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n. Okay. I see John has appeared. Oops. Watch out. That's not that bad.

We're in trouble. That was that was really excellent. Um we're just barely scratching the surface. There's some disgust. I mean it's so important that the third sector charities, et cetera, and government work together along with the corporate sector and uh along with regulators and stuff like that. I think that's really essential.

One side that you didn't mention, I think, is uh the fact that the third sector really needs to build its capacity to campaign. I mean, I've worked with probably a couple hundred charities. before I joined Philanthropy Impact and the ability to campaign was up and down. And it was, and so I think there was issues around building capacity and that kind of thing.

The other thing that's uh I should have participated in this, shouldn't I? Uh the other thing to keep in mind is the role of patriotic billionaires and the other side of this, which is also around taxation. So uh thank you very much. Um uh Kiris, uh Pippa and Nicole and Kath. I'm gonna do uh could you do final words of wisdom for 30 seconds if that's okay? So let's start with Nicole.

No pressure, no pressure. Um I I guess I would mostly say that like um Mae'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw. Great, thank you. Um Kat. Thanks, John. I'm going to go back to Keris' original question around policies that will increase giving. And I think the thing that I would just keep pointing out is that.

We have a systemic challenge with increasing giving in the UK and policy is only one part of it. So it's a very important part. It is it is the part that could potentially get things moving. But once we've got more effective campaigning in place, then we need to be able to back that up with other kinds of intervention that will make things happen.

Yeah, and I think to add to that, we really have to get professional advisors on site to support their clients on their donor journey and on their impact ESG journeys and stuff as well. That I think that would add a lot of value to the whole process.

Um I suppose more just celebrating everyone else's words of wisdom. I think, you know, I've learned a lot, everyone will have learnt a lot. And I think one of the things my takeaways is that this is a really specialist area on the ground and and legally. You know, I'm thinking

We've got all these bills coming through, election the election bill, the police courts and sentencing, the environment, the media environment, the political environment doesn't seem to be encouraging charities campaign, but there is knowledge out there if you uh do want to go into this area. As the legal advisor, I'd say minute everything very carefully in case the regulator does come knocking as a result of a negative media story. Bye-bye.

Yeah. Thank you. Okay, Keris, the final word to you and then over to Zoe. Well, reverting to um philanthropy impacts uh raison d'etre here, um which is to educate uh professional advisors in uh supporting their um philanthropically minded clients. Um, one of the things I would Would say is I would need more I would love to have more information about the uh campaigning uh that charities should be getting involved with and how they get involved in campaigning.

And if that's through Beacon uh Pro Bono Economics, then great because you know that's that's a way forward. Um I saw from Pro Bono Economics website that um They help charities understand and improve their impact and value in their work. And I think the more that we can all starting with with from my ask uh my angle philanthropic uh professional advisors to philanthropists

um, then you know, I think we should all be working together in collaboration to get this working, not sort of in our little individual pods. So collaboration is my is my theme.

Great, thank you, Karis, Kath, Pippa, and Nicole. Uh that was terrific. Um, can we have another hour, Sophia? Oh, okay. Over to you then. Um yeah, thank you. I just need to say sorry to anyone who's watching the recording who wasn't able to make the live event today because we had some technical issues with the link. Um hopefully those of you that were able to attend have enjoyed it. Um it won't happen again, I probably.

I think that's quite good after this long. I think we're at 80 sessions now that that's the first. Um I so I've said that we're going back to two weeks. uh going to be doing this from every other Monday now. So that's from the first of June. So actually I do have a walk in my shoes coming up on Monday, the thirtieth, and we're looking at um digital giving, innovative ways to for philanthropists to be giving.

Thank you guys. It will be shared far and wide within our networks so people will get to see this. Thank you very much and have a great week. Thank you, everybody. Thanks for being on the panel. Bye all. Thanks for watching. Thank you all.