Philanthropy and Impact in Education

Hello and welcome to the Philanthropy Impact Podcast. Listen on for insights into philanthropy, impact investing, and sustainability. Hi and welcome to Phantom Impact's Walking My Shoes series for our members. With the long-awaited schools white paper being published last week by the Department for Education, we wanted to bring a short discussion on how to support a client who may be interested in funding solutions to equity concerns in education.

We know that the first steps into an individual's impact journey can be a daunting and confusing space. Clients are now looking to their trusted professional advisors more than ever before to support them in their first steps into flanking ESG impacting. So this series has been established to support you, the trusted advisor, in giving your clients best practice advice and to know when to sign post to trusted part.

My name is Zophia Sannik and I'm the director of membership here in Philanthropy Impact and the person to talk to if you'd like to know more about our training and how to make the most of your membership with us. You can reach me in the chat or in my email, which is shared at the end if you're watching on. Rydyn ni'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio

This leads me to introduce our chat for today. We welcome Dan Corrie. Dan is Chief Executive of the Social Sector Think Tank New Philanthropy Capital or MPC. And joining Dan, we welcome Dr. Lorna Goodwin, who is the Executive Director at First Star Academies UK, and Dr. Alison Boddy, who's a senior lecturer in philanthropic studies.

Thank you, Sophia, and hi everybody. Hope we're going to enjoy this rather whistle stop tour of education and what um what philanthropists can do and what advisors can and help their clients to understand. As Sophia said, I'm Chief Executive of MPC. We've done quite a lot of work on education over the years, looking at issues like wellbeing and data.

uh and uh how people can make a difference. If you go onto our website and put education in, you'll you'll get a lot of uh resources up there. And I'm personally very interested in this topic, uh not least because I was a special advisor at the Department of Education. of years. Um to solving some of them. So before we start, just going to get uh right into questions and things. I'm gonna get our two speakers to just say a little bit about themselves. Um let me start off with Lorna.

Okay, thanks very much Dan. So I'm the Executive Director for First Style Scholars UK, which is a national programme which encourages ambition and empowers young people from care backgrounds to aspire to higher education. ac mae'n ei wneud yn ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud

Mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau, mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau. Mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau, mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau, mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau, mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau, mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau.

Thanks, Laura. I know it's a very interesting programme. I remember when you were starting to just play around with it and kick it off and bring it over from the States. So it's it's great to hear it's going and things are going well. Ali, what about you? Hi, I'm Ali Boddy. I'm a senior lecturer at the Centre for Philanthropy at the University of Kent.

and it's wonderful to be here today, so thank you very much for inviting me. I specialise particularly in children's charities, children's early intervention services. ac yn ymwneud â philantropia yn ymwneud â philantropia yn ymwneud â philantropia yn ymwneud â philantropia yn ymwneud â philantropia yn ymwneud â philantropia yn ymwneud â philantropia.

No, great, great. Ali, it's a fascinating mix of things that you put all together. I think that must be must be pretty unique. Um Just just to kick off and I'm gonna get us into a bit of a general discussion to start with. Just reflecting on our own experience at MPC, where we have sort of philanthropy clients, and when it comes to education, they often say it's, you know, schools and earliers and all this, it's just too big. How can I, as a philanthropist, make a difference, really?

um and they slightly back away from it. And then some of them will think, well, you know, I can't I can't change everything, but maybe I can uh I can work on a group of of young people who are having a bad experience and they're

I can do something on that that and we'll we'll hear a bit later from Laura a little bit more on that. Um and some of them then think about well, maybe I can try some innovation um that the state wouldn't pay for, and I can try it, and then if it works, maybe the state will roll it out for.

changes in curriculum and stuff. And sometimes maybe they will fund things which try and bring players in an area together because we know that the outcomes for children don't only depend on whether the school's doing well, it's whether they're talking to sort of social services.

uh at everybody else. So it it's a very I think it's a very interesting issue when you're trying to advise clients and and find their way through to what they want to invest in in education. But first of all, I just want to step back a second because there's an awful lot happening. Of course, in terms of schools and earliers and so forth. We've had COVID, which has thrown everything. I think there was stuff on the the news yesterday about, or maybe even today.

about how uh y your very, very young children have kind of missed out on a lot of social skills. We've got a very tight labour market at the minute. People are worried with the cost of living going up. What will that mean for teacher recruitment? What will it mean for the parents of a lot of the kids from more deprived areas?

And we've then got, of course, the um the white paper that Sophia mentioned, which came out last week, which had these quite ambitious targets, although they were way into the future, about getting 90% of primary school children up to the expected targets. And that's quite a big jump. Cause I think we're about sixty five percent or something at the minute, particularly in small deprived areas. So lots of all that and people were saying, well

you know it was very ambitious but it wasn't quite clear how anyone was going to meet these things because we wanted a lot more money. So I'm just going to kick off by asking um I'll ask you Ali first. I mean what do you think the whole context, how does it feel to you? Are we in a good place in in education, going the right direction or you know in a strange place and we don't quite know what to do or how do you see it?

I think you're absolutely right at the start of seeing that education is part of a much wider ecosystem and children's lives are part much uh are part of a much wider ecosystem. So at the moment actually I've I'm gonna be honest, I find the whole outlook pretty depressing, but I don't think that that doesn't mean that we don't have to be hopeful. We've seen year-on-year funding cuts per pupil for children and young people and that's continued.

We've also seen, which kind of worries me slightly, is huge cuts in early intervention and support services that surround children and families. And so actually, when we try and kind of solve some of these issues of raising the attainment gaps, for example, closing those gaps. We're dealing with children who might not have eaten properly, but you're dealing with children who are maybe facing Goodness knows what challenges within their home own homes and environments.

And so I do think the most important thing we kind of have to take into account at the moment, and I think the white paper sort of misses really, is that ecosystem. model and thinking about actually everything that's kind of surrounding education as well as education itself. Um I think there's an awful lot of But I do think actually we've got a teacher retention crisis at the moment, we've got a funding crisis in education, we've got increased attainment gaps after Covid.

Yet we've got a system that is so still entirely focused, in my opinion, on a catch-up agenda and on prescribed targets and attainment targets. which actually in some ways aren't really reflective of what I think overall education should be about. I think that's quite a pessimistic um view of where we are at the moment. Um but um

Ond rwy'n credu bod yn ddweud. Rwy'n credu bod yn ddweud. Rwy'n credu bod yn ddweud. Rwy'n credu bod yn ddweud pethau. Rwy'n credu bod yn ddweud pethau gwahanol. Rwy'n credu bod yn ddweud pethau gwahanol. Rwy'n credu bod yn ddweud pethau gwahanol. Rwy'n credu bod yn ddweud pethau gwahanol. role in in developing some of those those different ways of being.

No, thanks Ali. I might come back to you in a little bit to give you know, if see if you've got some examples of the kind of places where you think even if you're not that optimistic at the minute, where sort of extra funding and and you know expertise and so forth could make a difference. But let me ask Lorna then, what's your answer to that general question? How do you see the world at the minute?

I I'm I think there's elements of what Ali said in terms of the it can be quite disheartening. There are 66 kind of spots in the UK where they've identified um underachievement and and things like that. I think One of the challenges is it's not about providing the same opportunities for all, which is one of the things the white paper talks about. It's not about equality, it's about equity. It's about the cultural capital and the resources that surround each child.

yw'n ymwneud â'r blynyddoedd yn ymwneud â'r blynyddoedd yn ymwneud â'r blynyddoedd neu'r blynyddoedd, neu'r blynyddoedd, neu'r blynyddoedd, neu'r blynyddoedd, neu'r blynyddoedd, neu'r blynyddoedd, neu'r blynyddoedd. and how we address that. There's always been closing the gap programs for years and years and years that haven't closed those gaps or haven't closed them sufficiently, then COVID's come and opened them even wider, as we all know.

I think, you know, if if if we're still playing leveling up and catching up, there needs to be a much greater attention on the needs of the individual young people. And that involves engaging with schools, charities, other groups working with the youngsters around whether it's mental health, education, life skills, functional skills, whatever it is that actually addresses

mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau. No, I think there's a lot in that, Lauren. I mean, I think one of the one of the sort of, if you like, mysteries in education policy and schools policy in in recent decades was the great success of London Challenge. So London schools were sort of way behind every

Then something happened, whether it was the London Challenge scheme or something else, I don't know. And now London, of course, and it's I think it's mentioned in the white paper, are is way ahead of most places, despite having a kind of you know very diverse population and a lot of people with England. second language and so forth. But I mean, uh you got any thoughts about why on earth that's been and why we can't just do that in other parts of the country?

I think there was there's s significant investment. It's not one of the areas that's on the white, it's highlighted in the white paper. So that they're still kind of in advance of that. I think there's there's a lot of things. We're missing some of the things that ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw, ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw, ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw.

yn ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw No, I mean it's interesting, Lorna. And I wonder, Ali, does that mean, you know, let's say you're a you're a philanthropist who who cares about these this these sort of academic inequalities and achievement inequalities. And you you might think, well, you know, what we've got to do is get the children up to maths and reading.

And so for writing. But maybe you think actually I should fund something like visits to museums for children who for children who never get them otherwise. And that sort of picks up some of what Lorna's talking about, some of those other things. I mean, does that Make sense or is that sort of the wrong place to put your money if you really care about those

I think that makes sense, but I think it's also looking um a bit broader than that. So if for example we want to check we we want to close some of those gaps, I entirely agree with what Lauren was saying there about the support services. that are surrounding. I I I'm not sure if if trips to I think trips to museums are very valuable, but I think that has to be a wider set of support services.

So actually I think we want to be really helping deprived young people achieve in education. I think we need to see refunding in youth services. I think we need to see a refunding in mental health services. I think we've got some huge issues that sort of are impacting here. For example, children and young people now waiting between two and five years for ADHD or ASD assessments, which we know impacts more on our disadvantaged communities.

when those who can afford can now go private, do very often go private. So I think it's actually about let's look, as I as I said at the beginning, let's look at the ecosystem that's surrounding our schools and actually think about where we want to support there. Now of course. Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

Mae'n ymwneud â phylantropiaeth yn ymwneud â phylantropiaeth. Mae'n ymwneud â phylantropiaeth ymwneud â phylantropiaeth ymwneud â phylantropiaeth ymwneud â'r system. is really matters to them. What part of that system, where can they make most difference in that system? And actually go with a really targeted approach to that. And again, I absolutely agree with Lorna that there is

Such an important here about partnership. We are so lucky in this country that we have so many teachers and so many schools and so many practitioners who are experts on what works. ac mae'n ei wneud. Ac mae'n ei wneud ymwneud â nhw'n ei wneud â nhw'n ei wneud â nhw'n ei wneud â nhw'n ei wneud â nhw'n ei wneud â nhw.

ac yn bwysig hynny'n gwneud hynny'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n

ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n Yeah, no, I I I I think you think you're right. I mean that that's the way things have got to be. I mean, we've had the occasional rather big thing funded by if you like philanthropic money and charities have done it. If you like the origins of teach first.

or if you go back to the early academy schools, whatever one thinks of that, you know, it was it was sort of led by that sort of thing.

The other thing that I just wanted to come to you on, Lorna, because one of the interesting things about interventions is is is evaluating them and whether they work and using data and so forth. And I think at Five Star that's been very much how how the whole programme's been built and developed and therefore it It to some extent it has allowed people to see that if they do uh support you.

um, you know, the results will flow. And it's not not always the the case in as we all know in philanthropy that that happens. But one do you want to say a little bit about Lauren about how you how that all works?

You you're dealing with a very difficult set of people, uh trying to give them a chance they wouldn't get otherwise. And so you're you're thinking all the time, do we know whether this is working or not?

Yeah, absolutely. And in our quest for a fairer society, we're very conscious of the data and and the need and the and the impact we can have so we make sure we have that impact but it is a partnership we work with universities with that we work with educational specialists We work with people who can bring that evaluative and monitoring models. Which demonstrate the impact. And we also have developed a model that is A, very flexible, and B very scalable across the country.

yw'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o

What we engage with is with a big family hug. It's not just about educational outcomes. It's a big family hug about life skills, about mental health. yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r So it's about those preparations. It's not just about whether they get there.

Mae'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw. Um sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl. They are the leaders in First Star. The program is developed around them and each cohort is different. And therefore the impact on each individual is sustained by the individual's needs.

Yeah, and some very interesting things you said there, Lorna. I mean, I think one which it it often gets missed in a lot of uh work that charities and so forth do is that if you're working with somebody, a young person who's had a difficult life. you often need more than a sort of one-off intervention. They're going to need help through their life. And that often gets missed out.

Uh but the other thing that's interesting, you were talking in the sense that that there's kind of peer effects once they and they help each other. Do do you think your program, and this is relevant to lots of programs, is it the sort of skills that you can give them extra or is it a sort of boosting their confidence and sense of aspiration? Which is the key do you think? Because because I think that that's often people feel that's often at the heart of of somehow how can you change that

mae'n gweithio cymdeithasol ar gyfer pobl sydd wedi wedi'i'i wedi'i'i'i wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i' I think it's both, they're both equally important. They draw inspiration from each other and we've learned that from them, that some are more aspirational when they arrive. And that impacts the others.

For everybody who whatever whatever wherever we come from in our life, we need relationships. That's that's the nature of Mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r I think it's both. I think it's giving them soft skills as well as academic skills, the confidence that you're mentioning and just the confidence to talk to each other, to talk to us.

Rydyn ni'n ei wneud yn ymwneud â'r pethau ac yn ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau. w we will manage all those interactions. Rydyn ni'n cael ei wneud yn unrhyw beth sy'n cael ei wneud yn unrhyw beth sy'n cael ei wneud yn unrhyw beth sy'n cael ei wneud yn unrhyw beth sy'n cael ei wneud yn unrhyw beth sy'n cael ei wneud yn unrhyw beth sy'n cael ei wneud yn unrhyw beth sy'n cael ei wneud yn unrhyw beth sy'n cael ei wneud

The bring together and that embodies them in their academic pursuits as well. Is that how you see it as well, Alex? I do, but there's so much that all the same there that's kind of um I think I could probably comment more on the empowerment side of things. Um so when I said at the beginning of this um

uh of this talk about that I kind of focus on this idea of philanthropic citizenship. I see that is as a way of empowering children and young people, all children and young people, to identify themselves as kind of current social actors.

actually feeling empowered and and the importance of feeling empowered, the importance of cultivating critical curiosity to ask some some of the kind of the big questions and the difficult questions that we face i i in life and that we face about actually questioning our own kind of positions, uh the the inequality that we see around us, uh diversity issues, et cetera, and being able to really engage with them in a positive and kind of proactive way, which I think is another really important

aspect of education that I I would argue was kind of quite largely missed from the white paper as well, that kind of citizenship and that identifying yourself as a citizen and all citizenship being equally important.

Yes, so there was there was a sort of phase. I can't remember which education secretary it was, because they do go rather quickly at the moment. But there was there was quite an emphasis at one point on character, wasn't there? And and it was a slightly contested what that meant, because obviously we all believe in But what what exactly that meant? I don't know what's happened. I think there was even some charities focused

on what kind of character education should and shouldn't be. And I think it is important here to kind of emphasise that I've sort of focused more on the kind of citizenship part, because I do, I I absolutely agree, of course character is important. and building up those ideas of character. But I think there's a number of educationalists who feel like we need to go beyond character and we need to actually question the wider societal structures. that sit around some of the inequalities.

y mae'n ymwneud â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl sydd â phobl And you're still not going to. And what we need to do is question those structural inequalities that surround that.

Right, I think your dog was agreeing quite very strongly. Um but I and and and then do you see that, Lorna? I mean, in generally, you know, uh either about five star or more generally if you like, sort of educational interventions that that

You know, in a sense, you you're often trying to give give uh young people skills. You're trying to make up to for some of the things outside school, if you like, which they're not getting. You're trying to give them uh the confidence to ask questions, as you said. And I mean, is that

Is that the the sort of the ingredients of successful interventions? And I guess if it is, then you know one of the things that's always I know frustrates teachers is that you know the limit to what they can do about some of this stuff. Yeah, I agree that there there is, you know, I I'm I'm you know an ex-teacher myself, I understand the the context and the limits, but I also think as as a professional we need to understand the needs of our young people.

I think the society that we're building for our young people does need that individualized approach and that understanding of um if you don't have the social skills or the the the relationships within a classroom. to be able to either ask questions or engage with your peers in the classroom, it's going to impact your learning. and it's going to impact your learning negatively and then you have those gaps developing um and and for the one of actually understanding each other and creating a

safe and caring environment in a classroom or a playground or wherever it might be. Um it it it's too important to to not be part of the And that the the education experience and part of the curriculum. And if it's, you know, if we're going to talk about citizenship, kindness, being kind to other people in your classroom is part of that citizenship. And those are the sorts of things, you know.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r cymdeithasol. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r cymdeithasol. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r cymdeithasol ac yn ymwneud â'r cymdeithasol.

yn ymwneud yn ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw Uh it's an interesting thing that you saying that, Lorna, made me think because I I I'm you can uh you know it wouldn't be a surprise that I'm a big fan of the Education Endowment Foundation that tries to look at evidence and it got some more money in the in the

On the other hand, when I worked at the department, it was quite clear that if you had the right head teacher creating the right culture, the kind of culture you talk about. It really didn't matter what the whether you did all the things that were supposed to work or not. And if you had the wrong culture and did all the things that were supposed to work, it wouldn't work. So there's something about the culture.

that that really matters and which is hard to, you know, you see a great leader when when when you you know you go to the school and you can just feel it, um, how you bottle that up and make it happen.

That's always been interesting. Let me, because we're just running out of time. Just let me ask a kind of quite immediate question, I guess. Cost of living crisis is going to hit a lot of people. There are going to be a lot of children going to school without breakfast.

uh and uh the cold and all the rest of it. Does that mean to the extent that charitable foundations and philanthropists and everything do anything in the next year, let's say it's kind of trying to, I don't know, it it's breakfast club. uh and food banks and that sort of thing. Is that more important at in the end and actually adds more value than any

anything else or or is that hard to say? Ali, what do you think? Sorry, hard question to throw at you but this. I think it's incredibly hard to um to give a uh to answer that question, but I do I do think yes, there is an immediate crisis. Rydyn ni'n gweithio gyda'r cymdeithasol. Rydym ni'n gweithio gyda'r cymdeithasol. Rydym ni'n gweithio gyda'r cymdeithasol sy'n gweithio gyda'r cymdeithasol. Rydym ni'n gweithio gyda'r cymdeithasol y cymdeithasol.

So yes, we do need to do that, but we simultaneously need to be challenging the system that is that is creating this whilst doing that. And so I think philanthropy has a really important act.

Always difficult choices. I noticed that John has appeared. I suspect that means we're running out of time. You you have run out of time, yes. Um this is quite brilliant. Thank you, uh Dan, Lorna and Allie. Um Uh you started off with it's a difficult environment and there's all kinds of systemic issues, uh structural inequalities and cultural wars, of course.

But at the same time, it's really quite enlightening and very positive about some of the things you've talked about in terms of solutions and how people are addressing this. So thank you for that. So final words of wisdom, 30 seconds. Starting with Florida.

Okay, my 30 seconds would be we need to look to support scalable and sustainable sy'n gweithio'r moddau sy'n gweithio'r edrych, sy'n gweithio, sy'n gweithio, sy'n gweithio, sy'n gweithio, sy'n gweithio, sy'n gweithio, sy'n gweithio, sy'n gweithio. Yn yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw.

So scalable and sustainable models I think are the are are an important way forward. Thank you, Lorna. Ali. I think Lorna said it beautifully. So I think the idea of collaboration and collaborative working But I think I would add in that of um listening to the experts as well, listening to experts from academia, listening to experts from act uh from practice and teaching. ac yn ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n eu hunain.

Dan, they keep talking about philanthropy, uh, but uh social investment, impact investing and stuff is really also important, as well as uh the role of professional advisors.

So what's your final uh 30 seconds? I'll give you actually 45 seconds if you wish. Oh no, oh no. Um well I th I I totally agree with Ali. I think I think that the um if we can get philanthropists and advisors can help with that to think about investing in education, giving kids from difficult backgrounds a good start is a fantastic thing to do.

But sometimes education is one of those things where everybody thinks they know the answer because they went to school. Don't don't assume you know you've got the answer because you knew what worked for you at your school. Do listen to the experts, listen to Ali and Lorna. Uh and that will help and then you will and you will put your money somewhere which will make a difference and there's nothing more rewarding.

Well I think it's also important that they go to your website because there's a lot of really good information on your website as well. So thank you, uh uh all of you and over to Zofia. Yeah, thank you. We only just scratched the surface, as you said, on this. Um, so we'll be sure to to come back with some more stuff around education uh and looking particularly at social investment around it. Thank you all for joining. Thank you for your time.