In Conversation With Sarah Soar

Thank you. Hello and welcome to the Philanthropy Impact podcast. Listen on for insights into philanthropy, impact investing, and sustainability. Good afternoon. I'm really pleased to be talking to Sarah Sore, who is the Chief Executive of Hawksbore Investment Management. Sarah, thank you for doing this. It's really great to have you here. It's a great pleasure, John. Thank you for having me. I I just wanted to uh talk about a few things at the beginning and um uh you've um

been um uh on a journey in investment and wealth management industry for over thirty-five years. Can you give us a sense of what it's been like, what changes have taken place? Uh, what motivates you, what excited you about it, that kind of thing.

Well, I have to confess that I fell into the this industry by mistake. Um uh I happened meet a bloke in a pub as I the story goes who uh worked are we gonna have to censor this Um, who worked for uh Bruin Dolphin and happened to tell me that there was a role going there and I didn't know anything about the city, I didn't know anything about finance. But I was rather desperate for a job and I went along for the interview and um got a job as an assistant there.

And that was back in nineteen eighty four and uh I haven't really looked back since, but my goodness, it has changed uh enormously and I guess probably what is noticeable so much from then to now is how very, very flexible everything was. There was minimal regulation. My word is my bond was basically the sum total of regulation that existed then. That's but that's a bit of a sweeping statement, but um you get the the gist. And obviously over the the years

um, everything has become a lot more rigid. Um and rightly so, because it's protecting the the the c client, the end client. So Uh but it has it has changed enormously in that respect and obviously the progress of technology um has has been seismic during the same period. Uh so it's been it's been a f phenomenally exciting period. Um I

But what got me on day one and what I've I've always loved ever since is I love helping people. I love I loved the concept of being t h able to help people with their investments and to achieve what they were looking for as an investment manager. And then as I moved on to the management side, I really love helping to people and helping the firm that I work for to be successful.

So it's all boils down to that one driving factor and I continue to do it and as I've got older I like to now help younger people. in their careers um uh and help people to develop. So it's it's something that is sort of ingrained in me really. Why? Why? Where does that come from? Um, I think it probably undoubtedly comes from my both my parents, my father was a doctor, my mother was a nurse.

And um my original plan was to be a doctor. Um, unfortunately I always I always say physics is spelt with an F because that's what I got at A level and I never managed to improve improve that grade particularly well. Well, I got it up to a D, but it wasn't going to get me into medical school. So but I've always had that love of of helping people and um I I which is why I love mentoring, which is I why I love supporting um individuals.

w it doesn't matter whether they're younger or or older, whether they're male or female, whatever their background, if I can do something to help them then I will. And I've always enjoyed um from a you know, from a phil philanthropy uh aspect and charitable aspect, I like giving my time and helping. uh other organisations other than my day job um as well, which is why I've pursued what I have done over the years.

Oh excellent. Um can you give me a couple of examples of things that you're really super pleased about that have excited you, that have motivated you to go further, et cetera? Well, certainly um I was I was very pleased when I was um at Bruendolphin. to be involved in a number of key projects there. Um I was involved with the rebrand of Ruth Bruins with the head of marketing.

gosh, fifteen years ago, which was quite significant, and it was the time that that the all the Bruins names because they they'd owned other uh organisations like Wise Speak and Hill Osborne and Bell Laurie White, when that all came together that was fairly significant um establishing model portfolio service for Bruins, setting up the business development team there, those sort of things which you know you look back on we're

uh you know quite game changing um for the organization. So at J and Finn I set up the um wealth planning team there, got that going from scratch and that going very well. So it's been great to do sort of some sort of really significant things which again help help clients um uh and their financial uh benefiting it at the end of the day. So

Uh it's fascinating. Um Um you started there by mistake, so like an accident. Yeah. Has that been uh uh like you for life? I mean, I think of uh most everything I've done has come from an accident. Um uh going over here was an accident. Um uh c uh my career of uh going into uh charities to turn them around when they're failing, all that kind of stuff was just an accident. Uh is it the same for you then? There's been a lot of accidents that have created really good opportunities.

Well I think I I I I don't know whether it's accident or fate. I've always slightly believed that what happens does happen for a reason. Um And I there's a the wonderful expression, you're born in a day, you die in a day, anything can happen in a day, uh which includes you can meet anybody in a day and it can change the your direction of of travel. What I do believe

is that you can't sit on the sofa and wait for it to happen. You have to go out and um be at least be there, um to make that accident or act of f fate. um happen in the first place because it won't happen if you don't if you don't take those proactive steps to just be around people and able to to make those sort of um Sometimes life changing um mood.

So being out there networking, et cetera, you in effect create your own luck or you take advantage of whatever comes out. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So a lot of people don't always take advantage of what's in front of them.

So no. And I I think, you know, you're not going to get anywhere by waiting for somebody to come to you ever. I mean it might happen occasionally, but most of the time it Mae'n rhaid i'n gwneud hynny'n ei wneud, ac mae'n rhaid i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. Well some, yes. There's a quote from the FT that says, uh SOR is likely to be a consequential figure in our industry for many years to come.

I mean that's uh we say in Canada, that's really neat. Uh if I was sort of um being cruel to Canadians would be really neat, A. Um, but um what are your plans? Uh uh do you agree with that statement? Uh uh what are your plans to keep up and keep being neutral?

Well, I would I I I have to say um I was I was pleasantly surprised when I read that. Um but uh I it comes back to my desire to continue to to help and support and at some point my executive career will end, but I would like to continue to support the industry through non-exec roles and I would like to continue to support um individuals within the industry through mentoring and other ways in which I can um, you know, give back. the all the knowledge that I've accumulated over the years.

The mentoring thing is really important because a lot of us have got where we are because someone came along in our lives by accident or whatever, um, who mentored us through a different situation. So it's really good. I'm glad to hear that you're going to continue to do that.

Yeah, no, I I do feel very strongly and I had Two people particularly stick in my mind, um, who really actively supported me in my career and uh were were genuine um friends that I could uh seek advice from and I knew that I wasn't going to get a bias uh response from them and I won't name them but they know who they are and um and they were they're very special to me as as significant.

Oh, excellent. Um the um uh in your current position at Hospore, can you tell me a bit about that? What your position is, what you're doing, what you're uh what you're planning to do, what some of your accomplishments have been? Thank you. So so yes, as CEO, um my my role is to is to drive the the well set um and drive the strategy of the firm. Uh when I joined, we were an independent uh boutique.

a business which had been set up by my predecessor some fifteen years previously. Um, not long after I joined as CEO, uh, which was October 2019. Um firstly COVID hit uh a few months after I had been there. Um and at the same time uh Hearst Point Group had been making moves to acquire the business. So I it was quite an interesting period to deal with an acquisition uh whilst for the first time, obviously for for everybody we were all working remotely. Um in lockdown. Uh

But we achieved that the completion of that acquisition in March twenty twenty one. Um so it's been working to develop Hawkesmore, which is the investment management part of the Hearst Point group. And we've made other acquisitions since then and working with our financial planning colleagues, Argentist. and working to d help to deliver the the overall strategy for the group as a whole. I sit on the Hurst Point Group board as well. Um for for our

shareholder. So um it's been uh it's been a very exciting good journey and we've grown quite significantly in size since I joined and intend to keep doing that in due course. So are you basically an entrepreneur? I've I've never thought of myself as an entrepreneur, but I certainly am very uh

I I I'm quite happy to step out of my comfort zone and do things uh and and suggest things to my colleagues which um should benefit the firm. So yeah, I suppose I I do have entrepreneurial Tendencies, shall we say. That's good. Sorry, I don't know what's going on here. My phone just decided to go off. Anyway. Um okay, so um

Uh so uh in in the firm, one of the things I've heard is that uh uh inclusion, diversity, et cetera, are really key elements of of what you're trying to accomplish and in addition to building the firm.

Yes, absolutely. It's very difficult. Um and I I have to say that and w which is why um I'm so keen to encourage women in particular or certainly diversity um at executive level because there are very few certainly women um but very uh the the number of diverse executives or s very senior management people

um at the moment in industry still. And we've been recruiting for a senior role for the last few months. And I've been very keen to get a diverse selection of candidates, but actually finding people with

the right experience to fit that role has been very, very challenging indeed. So it is um very much Growing from grassroots and I'm pleased to say that we do have a lot of certainly female candidates and more diverse uh junior people coming through the business and we'll uh we'll develop that way but it's it's not easy. That's not it.

So it's not easy to find people, but as a resistance, I'm not necessarily saying within uh Hoxmore, but uh in the industry about uh some of the stuff that's in a general that you're trying to accomplish. I don't I don't think so. Um uh I I think then there's getting becoming a greater understanding of the need to have a more diverse workforce and certainly we need more um female investment managers um in in the space because they literally are different in the way that they operate and

uh if half the clients are female then it slightly makes sense to that half the investment managers are female. So I think that there is there's a great increasing acceptance that uh we uh we should be more diverse, but the progress still is painfully slow.

It's interesting because it's estimated that uh women will uh inherit um or control seventy percent of the liquid assets in the the in the coming few years. Yes. What I find quite intriguing in in discussions is uh with uh advisors.

And uh that uh some of them don't get it. We did a study last year where we had someone have intense discussions with eleven Gen Z millennials and women of wealth. And they were all wealth holders as opposed to being part of the family. So they controlled the And it was what came out of it. Uh wasn't surprising so much because we have a lot of conversations with them, what came out of it.

was that they wanted to do good with their money. And what does that mean to them? It means right across the spectrum of capital, everything from philanthropy right uh to impact investing. So no negative screening, um, no ESG, just impact investing in philanthropy. Um the other thing that came out of it though.

was that uh they were really quite disappointed in their professional advisors because they weren't supporting their values-based approach to uh uh uh the uh either philanthropy or impact investing. And so they're starting to fire this. And so uh it's really important that advisor the advisory firms really pick up on on on the changes that are taking place. They're gonna be quite radical.

I I w I would completely agree with you and I would say there are still far too many advisors and you just highlighted this who probably wouldn't even w wouldn't even cross their minds to recommend um possi possibly down the impact investing route, but certainly wouldn't wouldn't not would not necessarily start talking about philanthropy in a meaningful way.

Yeah, I mean there's a r study that came out last year that showed that firms that uh supported their clients on their philanthropic journey. um uh would um have stronger trust levels, uh more clients, more income, that kind of thing. Commercially uh doesn't make sense not to do that. Yes, I agree. But we uh we have lots of discussions about you know it's rational, logical, here's the evidence, it's not.

But it doesn't seem to it seems like there's another part to this whole thing which uh is on the emotional side and things. So it's really quite fascinating. It's gonna be a a tough change, I think.

Well I think you know. We've known for and has been proven similarly for a long time that, you know, more female investment managers and fund managers will, you know, give better results and yet we still have woefully low numbers of people doing it. So it's um that there's there must be various reasons why that these things are not developing in the way that uh that that they should be. Then I uh it's yeah it's quite intriguing that um uh right now if you're uh looking at investments.

Um, it's uh the suitability is basically a two step process. I mean simplified and more complex process, but it's really around what's your wealth and what risks you want to take and stuff. And what we're talking about in our training is uh extending the concept of suitability to include value-based discussions. Um, because if you're going to fulfill uh consumer duty in SDR,

Uh you and you're gonna manage the compliance issues and risk. One of the things you're gonna have to do is have those conversations with people.

Yeah, no, completely agree. Completely agree. Fascinating. I shouldn't be talking about myself. Um when I uh did a Google search for you, one of the first I came up with found was Uh you're the first woman executive appointed to the board of Burr uh Dolphin. Um this is mentioned several places. What's it like to be mentioned in several places when you Google? Well, as I tr I tend to avoid Googling myself, I Um it's it it it's it's very exciting. Um

And it's very f it's very flattering. Uh But it's also important to use that as a as an opportunity to uh well again it comes back sort of to mentoring, but leading by example and saying uh to women, you you know, you can do this because I'm not exceptional in any shape or form whatsoever. And if I can do it, anybody can do it. So um it's it's a great way of being able to say I know that it may seem a bit daunting, but actually anything can be achieved if you put your mind to it.

So um uh what uh at the executive level, what advice would you give to other people from the experience that you've had? Um, keep asking asking uh or I I always say keep opening pressure pushing the door. Just see what's on the other side. Keep asking the question. Don't sit there and assume that you are being recognised or acknowledged for what you've achieved. You have to keep pushing and

if you don't ask questions and if you don't say, Could I be considered for this role or that role, you can quite easily get looked over. Um, so I always use the analogy which is an Alice in Wonderland one which I've had in my head for years where Alice is sitting.

in in a hallway with lots and lots of doors around her and she doesn't know which one to go through. And so she just has to keep trying the doors. And I always say, keep trying the door and You'll push some doors and they're locked, and you'll push some doors and you'll go flying through and there's a cliff and you fall out the other side and you

raise your knee and you know you have a pretty bad experience or you push a door and it opens and there's the next stage of your career. But you won't know unless you push that door. So you have to keep pushing doors. I completely agree. I just you've uh put me into a uh wonderland of different doors that I pushed, some of which were really brilliant, some of which were

Yes, yes. And we've we've all done it. And and you know, if you go if you go through a door and you go, Well, you just pick yourself up, dust yourself down and you go, Well, that one didn't work, let's try another one. And um learn learn from it. And and learn from it. And the other thing I always say is never give up. Ever, ever give up. If if you want something enough, you have to just keep going and you'll get not back. But you still keep going.

Is uh is there uh is is uh is there uh an issue with that within the industry and why it has trouble recruiting people, um, you know, um uh and not being diverse. I think I I still think that there is a lack of um I think a lot of schools still don't promote

financial services as a career as well as they could do. Um And I think there's a a general lack of understanding as to what the city means and what um an investment management career, fund management career, banking career really does actually mean and it's it's still held

bluntly finance education at school. Um, I know there is a curriculum, but I think it should be mandatory. So I I mean that's going off on a slight tangent, but I think if people had as much information about coming into financial services as they do about becoming a doctor or a

architect or a lawyer or something, I think we would just have a much bigger pond to to fish in. And I always say, particularly to women, Old school, go to your children's school, go to your goddaughter's school, go and tell women in you. if you work in this industry, just go and talk, give careers advice. Say what you do, say why you love it, say why women are good at it. Um de don't because I think people are put off by

you know, that it's like the wolf of Wall Street and, you know, that it's all going to be absolutely ghastly and horrible. And of course it's not like that. Um so that So what are the uh qualities and skills that are needed to be an excellent professional advisor, private time professional advisor?

Well, I always say that probably the the the best skill is to listen. Um I think Listen as you are developing your career, listen from your colleagues, listen um obviously when you're taking the exams and doing all that sort of stuff, but most of all listen to what's going on, how people talk to their clients, learn from that and

And listen to advice that is given to you. And then listen to your clients. So once you've become established as an investment manager or an advisor, uh I can't remember what the expression is is you hear but you can't listen or you listen but you can't hear but it it's genuinely listening to what the client wants not what you think they want or as a lot of people do tell the client what they want.

Um, because I think I and this comes back to the root of of consumer duty, because if you listen and then the client understands, you explain what they want and the client understands. then you've achieved what you set out to achieve. But too many people don't properly listen to what the client wants. They're then told something which they don't understand. And then you have a whole heap of a problem. So that would be my advice.

Okay. And then uh you mentioned consumer duty, but S Dr is going to have uh an impact on what's going on, isn't it? Yep. Yeah. Yes. It's some Well, a lot of this is is It it reminds me of when, you know, KYC first, suitability first came in. And, you know, people were asked for the first time ever to actually write down what they knew about their clients, you know, and everybody was sort of somewhat indign indignant.

Because they were well of course I know everything about the diet. Yeah, but where's the proof? Where's the evidence? If you get run over by the proverbial bus, how are we going to know? And it was it was, you know, all the hands were thrown up in horror. But of course it makes absolute sense. And, you know, likewise as we progress, um, you know, it it makes common sense that we should be putting the clients which we do anyway, but evidencing

uh being able to demonstrate that we really do put the clients at the center of everything that we do. And um And do that in a in a proper and meaningful way. Yet uh in our research, Gen Z, millennials, women of wealth who control their wealth really are are saying the advisors aren't doing that. No. Well, I think some some do it better than others. I'm going to be very charitable. Okay. Um uh but it's the industry uh ready. Um we were thinking of setting up a new service around

um, younger people coming into the industry and supporting them. Because of course the first contacts you made when you first start your career, many of them last you a lifetime and they're a network that's really positive for you. Is the industry ready for uh Gen Z millennials, um, women of wealth?

Uh no, no, I don't think so. Not really. I mean, I think again, you know, some some f some firms better than others, but if you were going to be on a a generalized basis, I mean I still think that our Uh it's getting better, but we have as an industry been exceptionally behind the curve with technology, for example.

Um and we're only really starting to to to catch up with that. Well, you know, the younger generation live by technology, don't they? And we should be embracing it wholeheartedly and it's still Quite scary as to how how clunky a lot of our systems are. I know it's not easy to change a system and it's extremely expensive to do so, but um it it is it it is a demonstration.

uh of of where we are behind the curve, unfortunately. But it's still going to be important no matter what the technology is to have personal relationships, especially at the high end. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I remember when um Well, when um bless him, Nick Hungerford set up uh nutmeg, you know, and robo advice and there was, Oh my god, everybody we're all going to hell in a hand carton, nobody's gonna have a job or one thing or another

But we're human beings at the end of the day and you know, we need to be communicating with each other and use technology as a way to facilitate what we're doing, it not replace. Um And and the young will say that as much as anybody. So, you know, that's that that's not un unusual from that.

Okay, so I I've been told we only have two or three minutes left. So I'm gonna turn this over to you. And what questions should I have asked you? Oh, that's a that's a good question. Um well I I think the th yes, it it it is around what What I what I always said I would like to do at the end of my career would be to be running a truly diverse firm. And

Uh as I head towards my co the end of my executive career, I hasten to it. Um the the chances of being able to to have a truly diverse firm is looking more remote and that is the thing that probably keeps me awake at night more than anything else. and uh I I would dearly love to um uh achieve that but I think I fear that there are so many um things against that. But if we could if we could get to an industry w where we were at least at parity um

I would I I would say that we we've achieved a lot, but my goodness, we've got a long way to go. So my final question to you is what question would you ask yourself so we can end this interview on a super positive note? Ha ha ha ha. What question would I ask myself? Or um What what can I do? What can I do to make this industry appealing to the young uh of whatever background, whatever gender

uh what wherever they come from, whatever they do, what can I do to encourage people into this industry? Because it is a great industry to be in and coming back to what I said about helping people and you can as you grow and build, not only can you have a good career helping people, but when you come to the end of your career and potentially have made more money, you can then uh coming looping back, you know, to using uh p phil philanthropic um actions and

making doing stuff impact investing, doing things which make a difference to the world at large. You know, it's a very powerful it's a very, very powerful and informative career. it can make a lot of difference to a lot of people across the world. It's not just, it's not about making rich people richer. It's about doing a whole heap more than that. It's uh I I find this fascinating. I uh uh several years ago I did some work in Indonesia and Thailand encouraging uh social entrepreneurs.

And uh of course they didn't have the kind of resources that we have here. There's no intermediaries or no social investment, there's no supports. around technology or anything, but these people have managed, many of them young people have managed to set up these community-based uh businesses um that uh were generating profits and supporting their local communities.

Um and um uh but to and then I was reaching out to uh business schools and uh corporate groups and et cetera, et cetera, to try and encourage them to support all this. But one of the things that I did was I appeared on rock radio for an hour's program when they're playing rock and all this kind of stuff to reach out to young people. So I think that we have to find ways of reaching out to young people. I'm not suggesting everyone go on rock radio because uh Yeah.

Be just like your dad run or dancing that you know that whole cliche. Um anyway, um uh this has been brilliant. So thank you. Final words of wisdom to you. Oh. Um I yeah, my my final words are literally this is this is a very exciting industry to be in and For those of you in it, keep going, don't give up. And for those of you who are thinking about doing it, do it. Great. Thank you very much, Sarah. This has been brilliant. Thanks a lot.