In Conversation With Neil Heslop

Hello and welcome to the Philanthropy Impact Podcast. Listen on for insights into philanthropy, impact investing and sustainability. Uh good afternoon, everyone. Um I'd like to welcome Neil Heslop, who's the uh Chief Executive of the Charities Aid Foundation, to this podcast. Um Neil, thank you for being here. How are you doing?

I'm doing well, John. Thank you. Thank you for uh inviting me. Nice to spend some time with you. Oh good. Thank you. Um I just have a uh I'd like to have sort of a bit of conversation about um some of the things that have driven you and stuff. So

Maybe we could start off with, you know, what has been your journey to date? Because you've had uh quite an interesting uh background. So can you talk about your journey and your accomplishments? And I especially think people will be quite interested in what motivates you. Okay, well th uh I I guess um So my journey, I g I guess my I I I graduated in law in in the late eighties and decided not to be a lawyer. Three years of studying law was enough for me.

Uh And uh although having said that, um um that l that those three years have been a good grounding for a lot of things that I've done. Um having graduated law, I I then spent twenty five years in the telecoms and IT services industry. um predominantly in the UK and the United States, although although a little bit of time in Canada as well. And then for the last Well, twelve, fourteen years, um, I I switched into the not for profit sector.

And and my role here at Charity's Aid Foundation's probably probably the third role I've had. um in in the charity sector. I was at Royal National Institute of Blind People for a few years and Levitcheshire International Disability Organization. So that's that that's a a snapshot in terms of my uh my my my journey. I guess during my corporate career. two or three particularly influential periods. I I spent five and a half years with uh Canadian base Global Telecoms Group, Nortel Network.

And then about uh coming up for eight years with BT um and then O two was was part of the the team that demerged Cellnet from O two. running their wireless operations. So why didn't it why did you choose telecoms? I mean you trained to be a lawyer. And then uh you go into telecoms uh for quite a while. Why did you choose that uh as your career?

I'm I'm not sure I chose it, and rather it chose me, John, to be honest. I mean, having decided I didn't want to qualify as a lawyer, I applied to about twenty. organizations for for you know these sort of two year graduate training schemes. And the the the the organizations I applied to were across a range of industries. But of the 20, um, the only one I was offered was with standard telephone and cable, which was the predecessor to Nortel Networks. So at that time. Um I you know.

I'm not sure it was quite like this, but beggars can't be choosers. And I had recently lost my sight. And at that time, um someone in uh who in in my situation was being being fully blind, the unemployment rate was eighty-one percent. Wow. So the fact that I was offered a a a grad training scheme with a telecoms company was was a terrific opportunity that I I seized with both hands and that that sort of set me on the course really. So you did that for 25 years. Um so uh

In my life, um, a lot of what's happened to me is based on accidents. So if something happens, you take advantage of it and you move forward with it. Um and is that sort of in the way with you as well then? Uh when you move through the telecoms industry from place to place.

Yeah, very much so. I mean I I I'm always slightly suspicious of people who've got tremendously well worked out career plans. Um I I don't know whether to be jealous or or just just very disbelieving, but it it certainly wasn't that way for me. Um, it was a series of um happenstance opportunities, working with interesting people where one thing led to another.

And and I was extraordinarily lucky in that I got a number of opportunities pretty early in my career to do some very interesting things which

created a platform to go on and do some more interesting things. So you lost your site uh uh just before you started this. So um did you find that going into the corporate sector at that time? But they were really supportive and uh helpful to you. No, not at all, really. I mean it's it's worth I mean it's it's incredible to think actually, but um At that time, there was no such thing as disability discrimination legislation. And um so it was legal to discriminate on the grounds of disability.

And and it, you know, I mentioned I I I applied to 20 um grad schemes and I did a little experiment, personal experiment. in that for ten of those applications, um I did not declare on the application that I was blind. And on ten of them I did. And in all other respects, they were completely identical. And for the ten where I did not declare, I got nine interviews. And for the ten where I um did declare, I I I got one.

And that was a pretty early lesson to me, that um the uh the blindness and and other people's preconceptions of it. was going to be something that that needed a lot of a lot of thoughtfulness. So um how did you overcome uh this uh level of discrimination and lack of of support and understanding within the corporate sector? And we'll come to the we'll come to the nonprofit sector in a little while.

Well I guess you know, the first thing that you you you need is just to be in the room and have the opportunity to engage with someone and and and understand What it is they're looking for and how you can match up to it. And very honestly and transparently. encourage them to explain what they're worried about.

you know a recruitment decision is a business decision like any other it's it's just a balance of risk and reward yeah and for any individual who doesn't have familiarity with what what are or are not the problems of visual impairment It's kind of natural. that they sort of um exaggerate the the the risk in their mind and downplay the reward. Yeah. So I guess I guess the job in in those dialogues, if you can get them is to work on reassuring people, reducing their perception of risk.

and maximizing their perception of reward. Ver logical, very rational, very empirical, but um that's not the way life is. So um um how did emotion come into play in this? Um I can see making the rational arguments you have. Well I guess there's you know the the the Emotions on on both sides. I guess my emotion at that age is you know someone in their early 20s, you just want to break and you want you want a quality of opportunity and you want to be treated fairly.

And when when that doesn't happen, inevitably there's there's a sense of injustice and Um, and I guess like all people with disability, you learn pretty soon. characteristics that that that are extraordinarily useful. You know, you've got to be resilient. You've got to go again. You've got to keep uh keep selling. You've got to keep investing in your own skills. You've got to exploit technology and you've got to really listen to what people are worried about.

And then bring forward very practical solutions to how what they're what they're worrying about it can be overcome. So what prepared you for this?

In your life, as as a child, as a teenager, with your family, what prepared you to be able to handle this in such a constructive way? Well, I guess, you know, I mean guess you know, we're all products of an environment, aren't we? I guess it starts with your parents and your family. You know, my I so I was born fully sighted, but I I had a uh was diagnosed as a teenager with a degenerative disease of the retina.

And, you know, m both my parents had the expectation that those things were not going to get in the way. And they were incredibly supportive. you know I got a great education I was surrounded by some terrific support in terms of teachers and and and you know family and friends. So, you know, it it can sound pretty tough, but you know, compared to a lot of people, I had all sorts of advantages that that that helped me make the adjustment and make the most of it.

So when you were in the corporate sector, were you an advocate and supporter of people with similar issues? Yeah, I mean I mean what I tended to do, John, was was was was separate those two different parts of my lives. So, you know, I I was trying to make my way up the you know the greasy pole of corporate life. while accepting that I wanted as an individual to play a part in improving the situation, not just for myself, but for people more generally.

But I tended to keep those two things quite separate. at that time. So, you know, in my spare time or weekends, I got involved in advocacy. So I got I set up a little charity with a couple of mates. I got involved in the disability rights movement. But I tended to keep that that side of my life very, very separate from um proving myself, delivering in a business context. And it's probably only in later life that I've become much more at ease and adept with.

accepting both sides of it if you will and and and certainly since I moved into the not-for-profit sector understood the responsibility for on my part. To talk about it. You know, when you get to a position of responsibility. Um the fact that you've done that with with blindness is a source of um of interest to people, not not unlike the conversation we're having now. And I guess um having that platform and that experience.

Um I I I feel gives one a responsibility to to talk about it, to to to play a part in helping others. So um we've talked a bit about your uh uh youth um and the supports you had. We've talked about the uh

uh work that you did for twenty five years in telecoms. But what led you to uh leave the corporate sector and then to now uh move into the not-for-profit sector? Well, like all big decisions, it was uh it was based on a conversation in the pub. And so I I you know I I mentioned that I'd sp I'd done my time with Nortel and with with O two and Cincinnati Bell.

And I, you know, that that career was was very good to me. Um and I found myself um in my late forties, having sold a couple of businesses in North America. So, you know, from a a family point of view was financially um you know I I I don't want people to think we're multi-millionaires or anything, but w we had choices in life. Um and and and I was down the pub with a friend one one day and I was trying to work out what I was gonna do having sold these businesses.

And throughout that twenty five years, he was aware of the work I'd done on in in the charity sector. And it was just a throwaway comment. He said to me, Look, you know, you're trying to work out what to do for the next ten or fifteen years of your career. Why don't you make the hobby the day job? If you look at the charity sector, some of the challenges that it has. Um you've acquired a bunch of skills that could be really really useful.

And and it was a throwaway comment one evening and and it was the first thing that popped into my mind the following day. And it just sort of stuck. And that and that started me on a on a pathway to really think seriously about it. And ultimately make the transition into the sector. What was the pathway? Well the pathway was um I I happened to be approached By the uh the chair of the RNIB, who I'd done some work with um uh a f a number of years before, where he was interested in me.

joining a an advisory group to the R and I B, a group of sort of business leaders. And I just said to him, I said, actually, Kevin, I'm I'm I'm thinking about um looking for an executive role. rather than just a a a part-time advisory. And one thing led to another. And and that I I ended up joining RB to set up a new division called RIB solutions. that they were interested in at the time. And I did that and they and that was my transition.

Well, it's quite something to make a big switch like that. Uh what's it been like moving uh into the not for profit sector versus working in the corporate sector? Well, I've learnt a lot. Um it it was a big switch and I have to thank my wife for that actually because um um one you know, one of the one of the big transitions is obviously making sure that your family and your partner are are are at ease with the um well

Taking an 80% pay cut. I remember coming home and saying to Nicola that hey, look, I want to do this. And and and and I'm very, very lucky that she she was one hundred percent behind that. I can I can empathize with that because when I left my consultancy to come to Flattery Impact Wasn't very popular at home for a few minutes. Well, I I I I I I'm I was a bit lucky. I've I'm very lucky. I'm very lucky. I mean we've um Nicola was was really very, very supportive of of me uh making the change.

I think the change I I think my experience is that um I thought corporate executive leadership was tough Um and it nowhere near as tough as uh uh has been my experience in the not-for-profit set. So And I and I think the challenges are in some senses analogous, but in many senses very, very much more deeply complex and nuanced. So I found it enormously challenging, enormously fulfilling, and very different.

So um so you ended up with a calf. Why the choice of calf? Well, I you know, uh and and I guess it's that career planning thing that we spoke about earlier. I'm not sure it was a choice really. Um I mean they r I I got approached by headhunters. Um in the early part of twenty twenty. Um Um and I I I actually said no, to be honest, John, the first time because my understanding of CAF and what I thought they needed and what I could offer.

were uh su at first blanche, I thought were, you know, it wasn't for me. And they came back to me about a month later and they said, Oh no, we'd really like to talk to you and I said, No, you know, I'm not the right person for that organisation. And then they came back a third time and I thought, blame me, I really, I really do need to uh take this seriously. And that started me down a a you know, my process of due diligence.

And I guess like so many of these decisions, it it's a little bit of an accident of luck, skill and timing. And that, you know, that would I I I done um I'd done about four years at my in my previous role. We were just about to think about um Was was I going to do another turn of the strategy cycle for that commit for another four or five years? And the board were were were obviously, I was in discussion with the board about that.

And that just came right at right at the advent of COVID. And the CAF challenge c was became very appealing, you know, because Charity's Aid Foundation is one of those quirky British institutions that if you were starting now, you would never invent it. But over the course of a hundred years. I I f I perceived it as a little bit of a sleeping giant and one of the organizations that had tremendous potential to To contribute at a at a system wide level. And that was very interesting to me.

CAF's actually actually the smallest organization I've I've I've really worked for for most of my career. And and, you know, it I mean we have what, seven hundred people now. You know, my most of the organisations I've worked in have had many, many thousands, and in some cases many tens of thousands. But w when one looked at the not-for-profit sector and you could see CAF did some amazing things amazingly well.

But it also had a huge range of things that it was doing. And it felt to me, as we were going into COVID, that um it was going to be a really important part of the of the ecosystem and and provided a you know a platform where i you know some of my skills could uh could be usefully deployed. So you said if it was if you were started now you wouldn't uh invent it. Have you reinvented it then?

Uh reinvention's a big word, John. That's that's uh that's pretty um I'm not sure I've reinvented it. You're welcome to reinterpret my questions. Yeah. Um look, I mean I I think The overarching my my perception on joining the organization was that its overarching charit um challenge was one of clarity of purpose. and um a and and crispness of communication. Do I think we've overcome those um those challenges? I I think we've made very, very substantial progress.

But I'm coming up for four years into the job and I would probably it you know to myself that we're we're kind of halfway through that that that process to to really meet those challenges. I think we are much crisper than we were. I think we're much bigger than we were. Um, but we've still got an enormous amount to go to to achieve the the ambition that I have for the organization. So from a personal perspective Um has it uh uh has there been complete uh acceptance?

uh uh of of your um disability, if if I'm using the word correctly, um within the charity sector and within CAF itself. Uh has there been any difference between uh working for CAP, for example, and when you worked in the corporate sector? Um I I I think the charity sector as a whole. Is um counterintuitively somewhat behind when it comes to to disability. Um I my experience in the corporate sector.

ac mae'n ei fod yn unigol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol Um, but I as a generality, I think those corporations that I've worked with. have um accommodated disability far better than the charitable organizations that I've worked with. I think CAF um um I th I think CAF has actually been very good. It largely bec as a result of the the the chair of the board.

in the you know he He as an individual has been very uh uh has never as I think we barely ever talked about it, to be honest. and and um and that that sets the tone for the board and obviously in my role, you know, setting the tone for the organization. And I want us to be truly inclusive and welcoming to people of um all abilities and all backgrounds and and so my although i i you know

What what am I trying to say? Well I I I suppose the the challenge in the modern world for all organizations, including organizations like is really a war for talent. You want the best people. and the modern CEO, there's really only two things that you can ever do. And that's hire the best possible and most talented people you can afford and then create the environment in which they can be their brilliant best. And if you're trying to do that.

that means you want a very, you know, a great place to work. you know, we where people feel that they're um they're gonna be able to build their careers, they're gonna have a quality of opportunity, it's a meritocracy. everyone's welcome and and and everyone's support. I mean that might find that might sound a little bit um trite or idealistic, but that's how I think about it. And within that, disability is just one example. Okay. Have you accomplished what you want to accomplish?

In life? Uh calf? What what what what do you mean by that question? In calf. In CAF, um not yet. Not yet. I think I think we're far closer to it than we than we were. Uh Um I think the You know, I I'm very I'm extraordinarily proud. that the team have increased the the the impact of the organisation over the last four years. You know, four years ago we brought 700 million into the sector, and this year we're going to do 1.2 billion.

Which bearing in mind those four years include little things like Brexit and Covid and the Ukraine war and all those things. I'm enormously you know enormously proud of what the team have done. Okay. But there's so much more to do. So what what what are your dreams now for Caf and for yourself? One of my dreams. Um I guess the um we've reframed what it is we're trying to do within within CAF and that's that's really three things. You know, we're trying at a sectoral level level.

to collaborate across sectors and across borders to try and inspire innovations so that civil society as a whole can thrive. And we've got some really good scale proof points about how we're doing that. I think secondly, we're trying to partner more effectively with donors so that they can realise greater impact from their giving. And and and similarly, we've got you know more and more proof points of of of where we're managing to do that.

And then thirdly, we're trying to we're trying to support charities to enable them to do more of their life-changing work with benefits for all of us. And and and that's probably the least well developed of the three in my time. And but we have a programme of activity and measures of how we judge success against each of those three things. And we're in a better state than we were um at any point in in my time.

And and I'm I'm very um focused on over the over the next three, four, five years, how how we really, really build on the platform that we've got to do much, much more So um what's next for you then? Within calf or Me personally. Yeah. I um well what's next for me? Well I'm turning 60 in November, John, which is uh kind of kind of a sobering thought.

Um and I guess a little milestone like that makes you a little bit reflective. Um I guess um I uh I the the plan that we've laid out and we laid out a couple of years ago. I think will take us another three or four years to to deliver. And what's what's my personal ambition is that on my watch we we we double the size of CAF in t in terms of its contribution. I think we've put a lot of work into um our culture. And um I'm really, really very pleased with the levels of people engagement.

and and employee satisfaction. Not not universally perfect everywhere, but get very, very strong progress. And I think more do mo more of the donors and the charities that we exist to serve, because at the end of the day. It's that's what it's all about. The clues in our name, you know, Charities Aid Foundation. We are a foundation that exists to aid charities. And that's all charities everywhere. And and I'm encouraged that the the community of donors and charities that we're seeking to serve.

are giving us the feedback that we are increasingly doing our jobs better and and and supporting them in in in achieving what they're trying to achieve. Okay, so we're just about out of time. I do have like uh more and more questions, but I'm not going to be able to ask them. So I'm going to ask you. One more question and then uh conclude if that's okay. Sure. So what questions do you think I should have asked you? And uh I didn't.

Rydyn ni'n ei wneud? Rydyn ni'n ei wneud? Rydyn ni'n ei wneud? Rydyn ni'n ei wneud? uh how important is the outcome of the uh the election to philanth to a reset philanthropy over the next five or ten years? And what's your answer? I think this is a really, really important time. I think it's a um it's a once in a generation time. I don't mean just driven by philanthropy, but if if you look at the classic things that they teach you at business school.

you know, politics, economics, social change, technology. We've got once in a generation dynamics going on in all of them, all at the same time. And I don't think that's happened. Many times, and therefore, I think for leaders in all organizations and all sectors, right across the economy. this this next year or two will be defining for our our medium term history.

Yeah, it's quite fascinating the um uh the social change but the technology uh impact of uh that it's having. Like we're using AI now, it's like having a special assistant. Um uh We're looking at uh metaverse, we're monitoring quantum computers, all those kinds of things are going to have an impact and stuff. So it's good to be prepared. This has been brilliant, very inspiring what you've managed to accomplish and what you're still trying to accomplish.

I think there's some really interesting lessons about the importance of family of support and having mentors and people who support you through life and life choices. It's also important to take advantage of accidents, um, um, as you've done in terms of telecoms, etc. Plus your approach to the whole thing was quite something.

So you talked about luck, you talked about skill, you talked about timing, which you left out of those three is the fourth one, which was hard work. Anyway, I just want to thank you. Do you have any final words of wisdom before we close off? I I guess uh only you're you're absolutely right about the hard work. I w uh you remind me of the Gary Player line. You know, it's funny. The harder you work, the luckier you get. Yes, that's right.

If you're not at the door when it opens, then you're not at the door, right? Or something weird. Something like that. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Neil. That was brilliant. Thank you. Great to talk to you. Thanks for the opportunity. Okay. Bye.