The Spanish Civil War w/ Thomas777 - Complete

the Soviet Union doing that. Okay, you weren't. They weren't fighting and create like twenty first century Sweden, not that would be any great shakes either, but you know then oh and you know, we there were some Russians there too, so that that didn't make any sense. And the you know, as I got into before, before consumer internet was a thing, you know, like I've said, you had to rely basically on the resources of your local library. And I was

blessed in that regards. I live in Chicago, Land or stuff like the Institute for Historical Review and uh, the IHR. They they were always putting out stuff related to condor relegion. Okay, I mean in part because there's a lot of like aviation buff old guys like buying your stuff, I assume, but it's also guys like Mark Weber or whatever I guess he goes by, you know, and uh, and some a lot a lot of their kind of best contributors

and editors they were. They were always coming back to the War in Spain, you know, the Battle in Spain, how that how that shaped you know, conceptual horizons strategically, and how it was really you know, kind of the precursor to everything that followed. And it was uh, you know, like I said, I I think it was Sleen who said that, you know, Stalingrad is where left and right had geliens met to set all their differences. That first

time that happened was in Spain. Okay, even on their visioness side, though, there's misconceptions, like I I'm going to get into some of that today. Like David Irving is kind of even though people view him as this kind of like art revisionists, in a lot of ways, he's not. And I mean I think he's he's he's the historian of the Third Reich, and he's just like a great individual, but he's he mischaracterizes the political uh situation there uh

relative to the combatants. And I'll get into what I mean by that, but I mean it was basically, my interest in the Spanish War was concomitant with you know, my interest in the Third Reich in the Second World of War, because I came to realize that these things were inextricably connected as well as you know, it's like why there's a number there's a lot of conflicts where people try to finesse the true nature of the combatants, you know, owing the ideological prejudices. Like I mean that

that was in my own lifetime. I mean that that happened in you know, nicaragu when I'll sell it or that's what like our dear friend Dan, he's an expert on that. You know, he's been taking the oral histories of of a nationalist veterans, uh in all Salvador. You know. That's why I hosted him on the pot and I hope to again. But you know, so I pretty quickly realized that it was imperative the kind of deep dive

into into the Spanish War, but also Spain. There's a lot of a tragic character to Spain, and Spain is really I mean despite the fact, or maybe because of the fact, I you know, and I'm not saying it does not a value loaded statement that you know, the Vatican is in Rome, like Spain, Spain kind of lived out in the most kind of sanguinary ways, you know, like uh, like the Catholic historical experience, you know, whether it was you know, the centuries along Riconquista against Islam,

which like other Europeans unless you count you know, people in the Bulk in the in the Balkans like weren't dealing with that, you know, like and uh, you know, just the uh the relationship of the the clergy to the monarchy. But all so I mean again ironically, and we'll get into this too in a minute. The reason, Machiavelli you constantly invoked the example of Ferdinand and Isabella, it is because Spain, despite the fact that they despite the fact that they remain kind of feudal in like

their sensibilities. You know, even until the the early twentieth century, Spain was the first truly kind of Westphalian national state, like before Westphalia, you know, where you had a truly absolute monarch and the and the borders of Spain were

national borders, you know. It wasn't it wasn't a confederation of palladies, you know, where there was uh, you know where there was some lame duck you know, secular prime minister or chancellor, you know, kind of like holding the illusion together like it really was like an absolute monarchy of a national state, you know, and not as like a puppet of the Vatican or anything like that. So

there's always like weird dichotomies. So it has got interested in like Spain like on its own terms, because like I you know, I'm a student of political theory, you know, when I isn't.

what it used to be called. But uh, in Western Europe, like corrupt as the French uh uh, the Republic was, you know, as regards you know, being in bed with uh with the Jewish users and other uh you know, another another, an other another powerful people who were you know, operating and hymically to the inimical to the national interest. It's kind of like out and out the domination you know of people's you know, like like not just socially

but physically. Yeah, I mean Spain was ground zero for that kind of thing in a way that was alien to Western Europe. I evertis Western Europe, but so yeah, I mean it was it was kind of like this, It was kind of like this collision of like the ancient and the very modern and you know, stuff like that.

But to your point, you know about uh about you know, Spaniards and Jews, that that's going to require like a dedicated deep dive because it's just like too big for me to and I don't want to just like shoot from the hip on it today because if the I I didn't I didn't like prepare any notes or anything or just like refreshment recollection. I know a lot about the topic, but I got to be able to say dates and things in a linear order, and like I can't do it on the top of my head. It's

not a robot or a savant. But but yeah, I mean that's that's important, and that's also you know, I mean, uh, it's just an ongoing and like the term you know, moranos or mono, like I don't. Uh, I don't, I don't. I don't know what the correct pronunciation is. You know, he's the one, uh the Ferdinand demanded that, you know, like all all Jews convert and like accept Catholicism, you know,

as the national religion. You know, which again it's you know, the ironically or perhaps not, you know, Spain became the first truly like national state. But the point is like that wasn't just stuff that was That wasn't just Fernan trying to kind of score points with the clergy or something like this. This was imperative in Spain in a way it was not other places, or maybe not. Maybe

imperative is not there word. This was a measure that had a context in Spain that it did in other places, even where there was you know, bed blood across ethno sectarian lines of a way that was any way that was uh, very pronounced. But I want to do two things today. I wanted to get just kinda briefly into you know, sociological features of Spain that relate to you know, political development that became critical variables in the War of

nineteen thirty six thirty nine. I also want to deal with some like misconceptions about fascism itself, and about what the perspectives were of a in Berlin and in Moscow, and and and how Hitler viewed the situation strategically, and how Stolid did because this is wildly taken out of context by every virtually everybody, including some people who are very studied revisionists and should know better. But you know that said, I'll uh, let me, let me just let

close out this window. Basically I'm gonna start. It's gonna seem like I'm jumping around a bit, but I believe this is the best way to present it, especially because you know, I'm starting something that's familiar. And also this is kind of the framing device as you if if if if that makes sense? When did uh basically Hitler and the the inner kind of core, the third or eych you know that being gearing Gebels, you know, Uh Hitler, they first kind of became uh, they first kind of

became aware of Spain and strategic terms. It was July twenty fifth, nineteen thirty six. It seems like something out of a movie, but Hitler was actually attending an opera I think at UH by Ruth or bay royth like I I'm sure I'm portraying that pronunciation. But literally, at the intermission of this opera, it Canarious approaches a Madmial Canaris, who was, you know, a very conspiratorial individual and a turncoat. I mean it's been proven, you know, many times over,

but he was. He was chief of the ABVIA, you know, the foreign intelligence service. And Canarius was strange because in some ways he seemed to be acting, you know, at critical moments in the in the interest of the Third Reich. You know, other times he was you know, working as UH just as actively the sabotage, it's strategic ambitions, beaven its survival. But that's a that's a subject to itself. But Canaras had actually introduced m Yeah Hitler to Franco's

people and UH. Canari's UH. He approached Hitler during the intermation of this opera, and he brought him an urgent UH telegram, which was an appeal from UH to a Franco's emissaries, you know, asking them for immedia, asking the

Third Right for immediate assistance. Specifically, Franco needed to transport the Moroccan legions were sympathetic, you know, if the nationalist caused from UH North Africa to the Spanish mainland, you know, to rapidly reinforce, and Hillar convened daring Arhard Milche Albert Kesselring, who I made the point, you know, kessel Ring was finally his final command was, you know, the defense of Italy, and UH he was never his forces were never defeated,

you know, they the war ended. So I mean, the the Wehrmacht and the Loofaffa just just went home, you know it. But kessel Ring at that time was was the LUFA the chief of staff Milch, who was an absolutely brilliant guy in all kinds of ways. UH and in an operational term, see, he was second to none. But all of and this will become relevant later, all three of them said, yes, we've got intervened. Now. Hitler

UH authorized a full scale LUFAFA intervention. All the men hasn't said, We've got to be careful here, you know, we're very We've got to be very careful about you know, the signals we send to the Soviet Union, to the UK, to France. Okay, Ultimately, UH getting deployed a bomber squadron under U von rich Toffen who along with von Toma, who commanded the ground element and we'll get into that later.

We're uh they were both you know, top Uh, they were both top commanders, and there's someone overlooked and people who like the rank that acts as the generals and what have you. But Hitler's view was that, you know, there was a need to test uh, you know, German combined arms, you know number one, you know, and familiarize h familiar eyes uh you know, both Aaron ground element

forces with with these new technologies. Secondly, there needed to be you know, the younger generation wasn't battle tested, you know, and there was that too. Garring's notion was, uh, Gearing at that time was still in charge of uh, you know, the the broad economic planning, you know, in a way that would later end up uh in the lap of disasters. He earned you that as well as Earhart and Mills, you know, kind of in a in a more limited way. And some would you know be uh you know conferred

upon Albert Spear, you know, it was armaged minister. At this point. Garing was kinging of like the freer plans. Okay, Gearing coveted precious metals that Spain had stuff like tungsten stuff like copper. You know that that uh that he reasoned, uh could be bartered in direct exchange for military aid or you know, acquired fire sale prices. Okay a uh No,

by all, a general war was underway in Spain. Okay, And at this point Milch kessel Ring Gerring said, we've got to be very careful about escaliefs unless we find ourselves in a general war with the Soviet Union. Okay. So this idea that the Soviet Union just you know, owing to socialism in one country. You know, the Soviets weren't really involved in Spain. Stalin was in Spain one hundred percent. He was in it to win it. On his side, he didn't want to yet provoke a war

with the Third Reich. Okay. See, you've got something of a Mexican stand off beneath kind of you know, and an intended subterfuge. Okay. What Stalin meant by socialism in one country? You've got to understand the way the Russian Revolution developed, the way that Lenin envisioned the Bolshevik cause,

you know, as a vanguard movement. The basic problem within kind of communist political theology, or rather the kind of conceptual view of you know, like the man doesn't make history, like history awaits you know, history gives man kind of the clarion call, you know. And you can't force revolutionary

conditions too early. And uh, you know this idea that you know, one can just build quote build socialism in a backwards country like Russia, you know, and then you know, Russia can catch up to the rest of the world, you know, and then you know, when a general proletarian revolution starts, you know, sweeping the developed world, well Russia will be right there. I mean, this, this is this is not orthodox marcis Leninism. Okay, that's what Stalin was

talking about. He wasn't saying, oh, I'm gonna glad hand with fascism because I don't want anyone to think I'm doing anything but looking inward. And you know, I'm not really a communist and I don't really have designs on Europe like that. This nonsense. Also at Base Spain was a political fight, Okay. Politics matters when you're dealing with a revolutionary fervor that is sweeping not just a key territory but literally the continent. Later during the Cold War,

arguably the planet, but we're not there yet. The Third Reich had to go fight in Spain because Spain is where the Communists drew line. Okay, that was that that that that was eight hundred percent and vice versa. Like Stalin this Moscow, the Soviet Union and its entire claimed the mantle of you know, global leadership of the proletariat. That that would have totally evaporated. You know, if if if Stalin had not you know, set the communists whatever they needed to win, Okay, But at the same time,

abiding the need, you know, to keep up appearances. You know, it's even more important to keep up appearances as you know, when when when when you're undermining you know, what you report to be your own commitment to peace and and and aversion to escalation. I mean when it Boss tweets, the appearance of the law is fundamental, like especially when

it's being broken. I mean it's this shouldn't come as a this shouldn't seem like outlandish anybody, Okay, But that's that's that's uh, you know that that's there's there's so much dishonesty around the issue. That's why I emphasize that a lot of people point to Hitler made a statement, and I think you can find this in table talk, but I found citations and Irving. I found a citation and Irving's The war Path also in uh after in early in November December thirty seven, it's about a year

Onward Hitler. Uh. Hitler had told Ribbon Trops chief of staff or his secretary that, uh, you know, like something that something effected, like an outright victory of Franco. You know, we actually might live to regret that because the guy is such a bastard, you know, ha ha. But he also said, you know, our interest is first and foremost is preventing a Communist victory, but also to maintaining maintaining

existing tensions in the Mediterranean. You know, if uh, if the UK was being uh you know, it's weighed and out of the medicine, you know, uh. But also like you know, the Spanish, you know, essentially preventing like neutralizing the strategic benefit of the Strait of Gibraltar to the UK.

There that that give Germany tremendous power, you know, not just in terms of the fact that well you know, the real name the Royal Navy would then you know, be at war in a in a te theater, but it would give Berlin, you know, bargaining power with respect to London. And at that point, obviously, you know, Hillar

didn't view the UK as an enemy, you know. So the fact that Hillar would lament the fact that Franco is a bastard, he's a terrible ally, he's impossible to work with, you know, the fact that he would say, in a perfect world, you know, there'd be a guy who was more malleable, you know, in Madrid or fighting to take Madrid. But also you know, in a perfect world, you know, we'd be able to kind of keep keep keep the Royal Navy forever tied down, you know, by

some kind of friendly regime on the Iberian Peninsula. Like that's not that doesn't that doesn't amount to some statement, like some literal statement of you know, gee, we made

a mistake to back Franco. I mean, it's people have a real problem with literalist thinking in these days, but that they had aside, it's one of the things that arguably, when I say arguably, I don't mean, uh, I don't mean in my perspective, but you know, again, people who view the war in Spain is just kind of this like isolated occurrence where you know, the communists support for a you know, for the for the Republicans as they're called, was was just some kind of token, perfunctory gesture or

that you know, the Third Reich wasn't really committed to it, you know, other than you know, for the very limited purpose of uh of of you know, cutting the combat teeth at Vermont. There really was a cross border momentum developing behind parties of the right. Okay, no, there was not a fascist International, but that would have been self

defeating and all. So that's not got of the the claimed legitimacy that these rightist movements had didn't entail you know, some uh, some kind of bureaucratic party apparatus, you know, with an armed element, you know, that had some kind of like you know, abstract theory of history that sort of rationalized you know, uh, its existence. I mean, his entire claim was, you know, something primordial, perennial and based in you know, the uh, the mysteries of cultural and

racial origins. Okay, to anyone who thinks that there was not you know, a zeitgeist that was facilitating the war in Spain. On both sides, the funeral of two men who died on the same day and whose funerals were held in kind in January. The team nineteen thirty seven to Romanian Nationals the name of Vassil or Vassil, Vassili Marine and Iron Mota. Ion Mota was Coachoriano's number two

in the Iron Guard. They'd they traveled to Spain, initially with an Iron Guard delegation to present a Toledo sword to one of the Franco's generals. They ended up joining UH, the Nationalist side, and they were killed in action, and this became a rallying cry across Europe. It UH. These guys were reviewed as holy warriors in a in a Christian jahad against communism, you know, against UH, against against Jewish aggression and all the iterations. Yeah, against atheism, you know,

all these things. That their bodies were interred or were on their way to interment. We're put in a mortuary train. It left Spain, it traveled through France and Belgium and reached Berlin in February. And everywhere they stopped they were met by you know, s s and s amen and national As Soldist party officials delgates to the Spanish falange. Uh, you know, guys formal representatives of the Fascist Party in Italy obviously, you know, a huge iron guard contingent, you know,

men from the action in France. Ay, this funeral train literally did an entire tour of Europe and uh was greeted by throngs of onlookers giving it the Romans loot. Okay, So I can think of nothing comparable in in in in the communist world before or after nineteen forty five. You know, I can think of thing. I can think of people who the Communists tried to glom onto, like Bobby Sands, which was very misguided because Sands certainly wasn't

one of them. There are people like from the popular frent Liberation of Palestine, you know, years after the fact, they show up, uh, you know wearing uh, wearing Shay Rivera badges and stuff. Before it became like an idiot hipster thing in like the two thousands, it was. Uh, It's ironic because of like the the PFLP General Command and people like that. Would you know what would employ

his visage. But there's nothing comparable. You know, this, This really was like a holy war of the right against you know, against what they perceived this jewelry against communism, you know, against against uh you know again against godless capital.

That was uh, you know, that was that was that was supporting both those elements, you know, and that's why these fools who you know from the UK and and from the USA, like you know, I was, you know, there were people say like they were fighting, you know, for for freedom against tyranny. It's like, no, you were fighting.

You were fighting alongside the Soviet Union and you're fighting as a Soviet Union as most brutal zenith, you know what I mean, So you can't it's not your alibi, I think most important of ignorance, but it's you know, it has got to be said. And on the other side of it, I know, we got into this quite

a bit. We were doing our Second World War series, but it uh as the UH, the the dictates that Stalin was uh issuing to the General Staff of the Red Army and the directives he was handing to the to the main what's called the Main Administration, main administration

for political propaganda in the Soviet Army. You know, we got into some of these things, but they these all you know, on the eve of of war in May nineteen forty one, they were incessantly referencing the Spanish War, and you know, the UH like a literal quote from U from Army Commissar first rank Zaporos. That's I can't pronounce these like Georgian and Moldovan and Russian names, but his uh, he quoted uh Stalin is saying, literally, the

situation is developing. Due to the situation is developing, we are compelled, in duty bound to take the initiative and dealing the first blow, beginning the war of attack with the objective of expanding the borders of socialism. You know. Quote the leader made it unmistakably clear that war is inevitable in the future. We must be prepared to the complete smashing of German fascism. I mean this, this goes on and on and on, you know. Like I said, we we got into this in depth before in our

you know, earlier series. But it's and I'm sure some people will say that, like I rely too much at direct testimony and things, But if you're talking about intent, and you're trying to you're trying to piece together intent, particularly of at scale, you know, you're talking about you know, command authorities, in a state that ended up at war,

you know, months or years subsequent to the statement. You've got to take those things basically at face value, you know, because number one, like who who what audience would they

be speaking for? You know, these these these are the notes that were found later in some cases after the you know, decades later, at the opening of the Soviet archives, you know, and it's you're you're talking like like mer Smmer said, you know, if you're a general preparing for war, particularly in a system like the Soviet Union, where you know, there was a kind of totalitarian accountability where and and and and at that at the level of these these

apparatrics in generals, they were constantly under surveillance and and misspeaking could cost you your life, you know, Like I there's a basic honesty to that that you can rely on in kind of absolute terms, you know, I mean, what they say might be clouded by ideology, it might be misguided, but the idea that what amounts to these uh eyes only statements from Stalin, you know, to his political commissars, within the general, within the within within the

what amounts the general staff of the Red Army that oh, they were just saying these things to give an appearance of preparateness and and keep the Germans on their toes, Like how how would the Germans even know of that? You know, like it's I mean, I realize them preaching to the choir here, but that's that's important. And you know, the before UH, before ninety thirty nine, the last general deployment of UH of Soviet forces was was in Spain.

And granted, like they didn't have an infantry element there. They had the end k v D on the ground, but they had you know, but they were there in

substantial numbers number one. And also, I mean Soviet weapons were all over the battle theater, you know, So when they're referencing, when they're making when stalin is is is issuing edicts, you know about you know, the future war, which obviously he's talking about the Third Reich, you know, and when he's justscussing, when he's discussing tactical matters, identifying what he's used as like strong points and weak points, he's talking about the experience of Spain. Okay, I mean

this that that can't be denied. Now back to Spain at long last, the war in Spain happened in Spain. Uh not accidentally, you know, and not uh, it's not uh, it's not a case of you know, revolutionary conditions owing to owing to some kind of you know, punctuating prices or ongoing emergency on the ground, you know, just kind

of made it right for for radicalization. Spain didn't develop normally, okay, like we were talking before we went live, you know, uh, for centuries, uh, Spain was uh what was what was was occupied, like large areas of territory were were occupied

by Mazlem elements. When that was finally defeated, the you know, I mean basically the uh the the intermittent war against against the the the Islamic Moors really began, I mean it was it was Viscoth warlords who began, you know, the reconquista in uh in like the seven hundreds, you know, and it like the territorial the territorial control of the Spaniards or the Moors, you know, like varied, depending uh on who had the upper hand in battlefield terms, as

well as you know, who was forced to make political concessions at any given moment. But it can be viewed basically as you know, a centuries long process to liberate Spain from you know, from uh, from Heathen occupation, and it was finally realized by Ferdinand and Isabella in fourteen ninety two, which is a banner year. You know, it's Ferdinand and Isabella. Like we talked about a moment ago, I believe before Winna Lie. The irony is that Ferdinand.

The reason why he was praised so effusively by Machiavelli and the Prince is that Ferdinand was in many ways like the first the first absolute monarch of a of a truly national state like Spain became a national state, you know, despite it's uh, even at that point, despite its backwardness. Okay, Now, Ferdinand had a remarkable mandate, and so would have subsequent monarchs had they, you know, had they been able to retain the coalition they get around him.

But the uh that those successes, you know, were bought at a certain price. And if you're fighting in the centuries long Holy War against dar al Islam, the only way you can facilitate that is by giving the army basically unlimited access to the national coffers, and you got to insinuate the church into political affairs that otherwise would not be appropriate or constructive, and both of those things happened. I'm not saying bad things about the Roman Church at all.

I'm saying this is reality. Okay. So the kind of prototype of U of state power in Spain was an absolute monarchy before it really happened anywhere else, sustained by a warrior aristocracy that it was beholden to, uh, a

clergy that you know, had incredible power. You know. The thing is, though, like all this costs a tremendous amount of money, you know, and the solution during the Ricontista, particular in the later phases, it's like you gotta feed your army, like, okay, well, you know, we're gonna seize common land, you know, and uh, and we're gonna we're gonna you know, we're gonna put animals out the pasture there, you know, if we need like wool or you know,

leather or anything else. You know, that's that's just what we're gonna do. You know. So it was kind of the it was kind of the fifteenth century equivalent of like imminent domain, you know, like being silly sounds like, but I'm not.

to give it literally the crown. But the point is if you're if you're using it, you know, for commodities to feed and outfit the army, or you're using it, you know for this, like for this merino wool that's coveted you know, all through Europe so you can raise money, you know, so that you can put gold in the coffers of uh, you know, the sex and weapons developers

that you need, you know, to fight the moors. Like nobody's nobody's using that land, you know, to to to build up uh, you know, to build up the Agraean economy, you know, and develop it and refine it and god willing, you know, create some career they generate on surplus X sport you know, like none of that is happening, you know, and it as uh as time went on, it created kind of a warfare state paradigm, you know, not in

like a corrupt sense. Like now, what I mean is that you had this, you had this warrior aristocracy, which is like interstitially kind of bound up with the clergy who both relied on each other, you know, like not just for the sake of you know, the the optics

of authority or something. You know, like if you're gonna if they were, if you're gonna wage a holy war, you better believe that, you know, the Roman Church better is going to war with you, you know, like on your side, and like their function is as important as you know, the men who wield the blade. I mean that this should be obvious, but we're not used to thinking that. We're not used to talking about Europeans fighting

holy wars like in Europe. But you know, if you're gonna expect, if you're gonna expect peasants like give up land and give up like, you know, give up the certain security they have, you know, from that kind of tendency, and you're gonna expect like freeholders, you know, to give up what they own, you know, so that you know, these uh martial efforts, necessaries they may be, can can continue your luck with the situation where like nobles established

a kind of becomes the order of the day. Okay, in a way it's not in in other societies, at least in Europe, like it becomes it takes on an outsized importance, is what I'm getting at, Okay, And that's exactly what happened, and that endured, you know, perpetually, like after after the Europeans like one Spain meck, you know, for for christiandom it uh be for me the point too. And Bebo's book is great because it's larded with facts

and he makes some great points. He's got some conceptual prejudices, and but I rely on him a lot. He made the point that in the Middle Ages, from the Middle Ages until the end of the UH until the end of the eighteenth century, Spain lost something like half its population. You know. Some of that was just kind of like you know, the kind of uh yeah, you know, oh,

changing patterns of fecunity and things. But part was because like Spain literally had to downsize because like it couldn't fee, it couldn't sustain the population that yone's had, you know, and you've got uh an empire that's rapidly growing, but its ability to feed its people is uh deterior reading I mean, at its height, the Spanish empire literally owned half the planet. Like people forget that.

template or something. It's kind of like natural you know, developmental cycle. Other than other than I mean everything everything, everything dies at some point or comes to an end. That's not what I mean. I mean, I mean the concrete particulars you know of of how an empire requires its fortunes, you know, maintains it's a geminy and then ultimately, you know, loses its ability to to compete with its uh I don't compete with its enemy's order or to

sustain its its own existence at scale. But this kind of warrior holy warrior ethos developed in Spain. But it was it's uh, it admits it. It came to exists among like a real kind of perennial destabilization. You know. It's Isabella like one of her one of her final kind of acts of state, like late in life. Dasis Narrows, who is uh this kind of legend. I mean you probably know this because I mean you're a kidlic guy and like a Latin dude. I don't know anything about

since Narrows until like very recently. But he was he was like this kind of he was. He was he was like this pious friar. You know, he's kind of the guy who's credited. It was sort of a structuring of the Inquisition as it came to as it came to exist. And that's another thing that's grossing misunderstood by people kind of on both sides of the the political spectrum. We'll get into that too, but the uh, the uh.

On the one hand, you had you had this kind of tendency towards revolt that was burgening in Spain, especially in some of these territories that you know had long been you know, like discreete principalities, you know, with with kind of unique cultural habits and and and political cultures. So there the ground, the proverbial soil was kind of, uh, it was kind of eager for for rebellion against central

authority anyway. But at that time too, like the papacy in Rome was was viewed as highly corrupt, which it was, and so a lot of these like friars who actually were like, you know, radically pious, they they found themselves at odds with the papacy, who in turn, you know, called upon on you know, the the Castilian monarchy in Spain,

they kind of restore the status quo. But the but the monarchy had to tread lately because a lot of these priests were kind of like more like literally more Catholic than the pope, you know, and the Castilion monarchs entire kind of their entire mandate to that kind of extraordinary, extraordinarily deep authority basically owed to their ability to you know, maintain like the confidence and and the absolute endorsement of uh, of the Catholic charity. You know. So it was it

was central wasn't against regionalism. It was you know that that that weakened the structure that Ford and created. It was the odd dynamics at play between uh, the papacy and and you know, the cardinals in Spain itself and else where. It was there was a rising uh. There there was a there was a there was a rising uh against Charles the Fifth, who was Isabella's grandson. That was uh, that was uh, you know, provoked by like was viewed as like his his his abuse of of

of public moneys and things. You know, it's just like typical sort of uh discontent you know with uh, I mean with with with rulers didn't well handle the forcenes of the country, like material and otherwise, but it took on it, It took on and outside and often like literally theological meaning like owing to you know, some of the some of the uh sociological tendencies at play. A lot of the country had been assimilated into the in the in the Castilian rule through like marriage, you know,

so you had you had a Spanish halfspur line. You know that like found itself at odds with with or with with a lot of the peasantry, you know, owing to complicated reasons of bloodline and things that like wouldn't mean anything to an American, but had deep, deep significance to to uh, you know, the people in that time and place and pre even the days people like where

they as meeting them. I'm not saying that derisively, but and there was times when you had an officer court who uh was sympathetic to you know, these kinds that like nascent middle class uprisings, you know in like eighteen thirteen and eighteen forty eight. You know, ultimately the pendulum swung the other way, you know, and which is where

it kind of remained into the twentieth century. And if you'll notice that parallel between this kind of situation in Spain and the kind of situation you had in uh Chile, you know uh with uh with Pinochet and the officers contra like civil society, like you'd be right, like there's something there's something to how uh you know, Latin America like mirror Spain in the way that you know the UK like mirrors the United States in terms of political

sociology and zeitgeist and other things. I find that fascinating. But it the uh, the uh like all these things like Spain was basically it was uh everything that the communists claimed about uh, you know, capitalists, like what they viewed is like you know, late capitalist failure was found in Spain, you know, and in their in their mind or in their propaganda. But I mean think I think

they also believed it. You know, they said that, like, you know, the only reason why the only reason why the church retained, the Roman Church retains power in Spain is because, like the last the final recourse of the capitalists is the is to draw upon, you know, reactionary tendencies you know, within uh, with within the body politic, you know, who are vulnerable as such appeals, you knowing to this going to the punctuated disruption of their lives.

You know. So it was like it was, I mean, I think, you know, I'm as saying like war arrives like the seasons, and there was matters of zeitgeist that you know, made Spain kind of the battlespace as as it happened. But there was also in more kind of and more and more kind of abstract terms, like abstract

intellectual terms. It was like Spain was there was gonna be there was gonna be a bullshitic uprising in Spain, you know, and uh and and the the Soviet Union was gonna be was gonna be insinuated into that process as much as it could be without provoking a general war with you know, the Third Reich or something by proxy the UH. Ironically, though, and again, you know, into the twentieth century, Spain remained economically backwards. There was a

basic hostility to commercial activity. Like it's like the Code of Hidalgo or whatever. It really it really didn't a certain it really didn't despise you know, money, you know, like it went beyond you know, content for usury and things. There were there's something not just unbecoming a nobleman or any or any man who's you know, an upright Christian of good race and breeding, you know, taking any interest in in money not derived you know from uh, from

an estate or something. And it wasn't they they couldn't transition that into productive capital, you know, like say Prussia did. You know, So they're not despite what you know, despite what liberals claim, like their Marxist counterparts, you know, it's not. Capitalism isn't like this fundamentally like actually or axiomatically like liberalizing tendency. You know, like Prussia was arguably the most reactionary state that existed in the modern era, and they

were remarkably capitalists. I mean they were they were abiding you know, the they were abiding the the economic victims of people Frederick List. You know obviously, you know, they had the correct paradigm of you know, commercial interest being

subjugated to the national interests at all times. This idea that like well, you know, if you have you know, if you have like a basically kind of like you know, martial cast or if you have you know, a basically reactionary conservative elite, you know that they it's it's it's literally impossible for them to uh, you know, transition a medieval economy into a modern market, modern value added economy with you know, where where revenues are reinvested in a

productive capital like this bullshit, because I that's that like that is literally a story of Germany and especially Prussia. Okay, but a it uh, there was a certain rigidity to things in Spain that that that just did not or could not happen, and it was exacerbated you know, like I said, the the the quote era of reform, you know,

like the mid eighteenth century. I guess until like the Napoleonic the final Napoleonic UH defeat in eighteen thirteen, there was there was a you know, you had you had a nascent middle class or at least a wealthier uh, you know, kind of a freehold class, you know, who were attracted to the ideas of uh, of of these Enlightenment propagandas at least superficially that put uh, that put that put pressure on Charles the Third to issue reforms,

which in turn reduced the Church's influence over the army, where a lot of officers were being you know, bought off by these reforms. And incidentally a lot of those officers had taken to Freemasonry. And that in large part is where you get the idea or the claim that like, you know, well, Masonry is this revolution from the middle kind of degenerate tendency that like hates Catholicism. I'm not saying that that's correct or not. I'm just saying that's

where it comes from. Okay, So don't I don't have people sending me hate email or something. But that in turn caused you know, like people who were you know, sympathetic to the ancient regime or who were committed to the kind of cast structure, and you know the uh, the kind of paradigm of a you know, an officer corps that works handing love with the army, both of whom are you know, beholden to an absolute monarch who uh in turn abides you know, their traditional privileges and benefits,

like socially materially. So this is just like a This is just like a literally like a perfect storm of

like dysfunctional tendencies. You know. It's and that's that's why when things jumped off in Spain, you know, finally in uh in nineteen thirty six, I mean, there was such there was such hostility, and that's all you know, I mean just I mean reciprocally, but it was also the it's easy to understand why even guys who weren't you know, diehard national socialists or like iron guard parisans, It's easy to see why people looked at it like, look, this

is the communists are like, they're making an example here, you know, the the body everything they hate. They want to they want to annihilate Spain and the Spanish as a people, as a culture form. They want to annihilate the church in capacity to exist in the modern world, and and and then they were right, Okay. I mean that's why it became so critically symbolic. I would seem like I was jumping around a lot, and there was a lot of like, I hope it's useless backstory and lore,

but I that's the way it came off. I'm sorry. I think you'll thank me as we get into this because I refer to things that. Okay, now, but we.

tanked everything. But we're gonna wait till we're like in that context and primarily though, I want to focus on you know, the third or I get war on Spain and like, you know, how the military situation developed. So I promise we'll dive into that very next episode.

I'm not being a murder like, oh I'm so great, but uh keep that in mind if it seems like I'm being idol or a nerd rather but uh I,

uh I've gotten more confidence like in shooting video. Uh it just comes out of editing it and making it, you know, content worthy, and uh I I basically just got to decide on a format for you know, like my kind of like for for for Thomas TV, which I think is gonna be something like a video blog, but like I are are are are a video pod, but like I want to have like guests like sitting there with me, and like some people like down for that. Some people are like horrified to that prospect, but I

think it'll be pretty lit man. But my point is, like I'm working on all of these things, and I really really appreciate everybody who gives me a platform, especially not not just Pee who's my dear friend, but like other people who just reach out.

dealers to act how they wanted in global terms. Frankly, then we got into that, and our Second World War series somewhat or a turn to that too in a dedicated capacity when it seems appropriate. But I'm sure that there's gonna be some people who say that this is over in my own conceptual prejudices, and I kind of hay Gaelian orientation and my tendency towards German storicism. But the the animating catalyst for the Spanish War was was Zeitgeist. You know, we got we got into that in the

first episode. You know, I made the point that despite the a lot of historians make a point of the conspicuous absence of a fascist international, you know, contra a communist international, some of that's a Cold War hangover, when you know, you'd have you'd have progress, you know stuff.

I don't like progressive historians, you know, with having to present the issue as well, see that, you know, this this was just you know, these are just capitalist states and crisis, and they they were they were just scrambling to sort of confabulate some iteration of what appeared to be, you know, a revolutionary tendency in its own right. You know,

to sort of rob the momentum of the left. You know, that doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny anyway, But the fact that there was this kind of outpouring of support for the nationalist cause, you know, which really was the cabolic cause. You know, we'll get into that a little bit here today. I mean, you know, and like I said, I I make a lot I guess of prime symbolic events, you know, I mean, prime symbols dominate in human psychology, you know, especially at scale, you know, sociologically.

You know that that's that's why iconic events, you know, defined civic memory. But also you know, that's why political symbols are so important, you know, particularly when there's there's

mobilization catalysts, you know, like during the Inner Warriors. But you know, we talked about the we talked about the funeral, the funerals of the few, the common funeral of Ion Mota and that's the old Marine, you know, and how you know, delegates from pretty much every European state that had any kind of active right wing movement or anti communist movement, you know, they turned out to literally salute,

you know, the the funerary train. You know when they were greeted, uh, everywhere they went by these cadres, and that's not something that's not something that could just be you know, cobbled together for for photo opportunities. You know, it was very authentic. And just the fact that there were Medians on the ground in the first place, you know, and then they're they're being greeted and saluted by you know, uh shoot Staffelman, you know, and you had Italian priests

you know, like like like blessing them and things. And then and then there's even like secular like French fascists like action france as types like saluting them, you know, who had obviously like no, no, no truck with reactionary Catholicism as it was perceived, you know, on his own terms. But that's most important in America too, because really some historians, including Anthony Beevor, who I I think he's overall a very good historian, articularly I mean he's not a revisionist

really at all, as far as court historians go. I think he's probably the best, you know, on the subject of the Second World War in the interwar years. But he you know, he uh, he's got he's got a tendency to kind of hit the mark but not really understand the sort of depth of significance of some of these prime symbolic events. And he hits the mark. What he talks about the Spanish War being you know, a

precursor to the Second World War. I mean, he perceives even a guy like him who rejects, you know, the kind of historicism of a guy like Novelty and and you know, uh as well as you know the the the contrasy storicism of people like Osbam, But he doesn't identify you know, like a common uh nucleus of approximate causation there. But it it was deeper than just you know what kind of a kind of opening act of hostilities relating to you know, extent you know, geostrategic ambitions

and and and intentions. Know it really it really was apocal and and ideological and a matter of zeitgeist as the why as the why why what animated Germany to intervene in Spain? Why the Soviets staked it the way they did, you know why you know, i uh, progressives in America and the UK, you know, who identify themselves as you know, on the side of the COO democracy movement, which which is incredibly misguided and deliberately it was a

deliberate lie. And we're going to get into that. So that that's a question that at Bar is kind of like why Spain, Well, well, we think of, like speaking of civic myths, so can we think of we think of the kind of prime symbols The left likes to trot out as like the horrors of you know that which came before one of the big ones is the Inquisition or the Crusades. They can't really, they can't really expand upon what they mean by that, you know, like

what inquisition, because there was three. There's the Portuguese Inquisition, there was the Italian, and there was the Spains. The Spanish Inquisition was the most politically significant. I'd say it was initiated by Isabella in fourteen seventy eight. You know, when we talked about ferd in Isabella like the irony of a of a of them like preceding the Westphalian state,

you know by a century and a half. But but but Catholic Spain, like like like Ferdinand really did make Spain and national Catholic state sight unseen, you know in a in a way that is at odds with with Spain's kind of stagnant and traditionalist culture. I don't mean that punitively. That's just a fact. But the Spanish Inquisition endured for three hundred years. It's agreed upon now by everybody, Okay,

by court, his story and revisionists or whatever. I could pull out citations, but I don't think it's an a assaria. If somebody really wants them now or on any topic we cover, I can provide them, but contact me directly. I'm not being autistic or something like. People do that to me, They're like, that's a bullshit, figure, where's your source? Well, I can source everything, but I'm not going to sit

here and relay, you know, citations like a shithead. But between three thousand and six thousand people in three hundred years of the inquisitions Spanish Inquisition were put to death, okay, based on convictions. That's about two point seven percent of all cases. Okay. In one year, nineteen thirty six, the communists and their socialist allies in Spain slaughtered about six thousand priests and nuns, you know, just outright, they just

massacred them. Okay. So within the first year of a three year conflict, more clergy people were categorically slaughtered by the Communists and their democratic allies. Then the total number of people put to death by the Inquisition or three centuries the Inquisition is what you're like taught, is this like event of abject horror in the strog of record.

Like I'm not cadaic, so I don't I don't have some like direk dog in that fight other than the fact that this kind of thing is discussing to anybody who's a don't normal, But that really jumped out at me, Like, as I said that, deep diving into Cali history, I'm findingly like twenty five years ago, No, okay, not because like I believe that, like you know, the Inquisition was, you know, this kind of horror show or this kind

of singular instance of brutality that's just unparalleled by anything comparable. I mean, I knew that court history was histriotic, I knew that they lied, but it's remarkable, like contra the violence that was instigated against you know, the CADLT clergy itself, you know within really it wasnt until a few years ago living memory, you know, the if you if you want to if you want to vilify the Roman Church, there's a lot of ways you can do it without

opening yourself up to that kind of criticism. Okay, but I that's another example of some something like that particular myth. I was making the point that a bunch of people lament you know, the information age and the kind of corrupting influence of you know, this kind of like totally immersion like in screens. You know it there, it's more it's more of a liberation mechanism than it is you know, like one of then then then it's like a check

called the psychic slavery. And there's just like one example, okay, like forty years ago you could band you better. The end position was the most horrible thing ever. And thank god that you know, the Democrats in nineteen thirty six, you know, stopped it from from oppressing women and slaughtering

people and you know, like crucifying gay people. It's sitting on fire, like you get away with that, Okay, even people wh knew it wasn't true, they couldn't just like rebut you like with in seconds like from the phone in their pocket. Okay. And I was making the point that you know, we're not. We're not running an evangelical church, we're not missionaries. So I mean I I don't go out in the world and say to people like, see,

like this is what you've been lied too. Look at the figures on my phone for the imposition, but for the people who are you know, interested in real history, you know, for the people who are charged for political or patriotic reasons, or just because like it feels like a calling me and like corny that sounds like I feel like being a revisionist is like my calling. That's like what God wants me to do. It. Uh, you don't feel so much like you're brushing up against the

Leviathan and trying to correct these lies of history. And it's also even if you think yourself basic immune to zeitgeist, you're not okay. You're gonna internalize features of it, even if you're doing so in oppositional terms, because it's like the weather, you know, like Al's coming back, you know, like in Natural Born Killers, that might seem like a corny thing to site in a serious discussion, but it's

actually a pretty profound film. I think owing in large part of the screenplay, there's this one part where I'm you know what he harrelse and he's like he's modeled on stark Weather. You know. He says to the guy he's supposed to be like Heraldo, who's played by Robert Downey Junior. He's like, you know, he's like, media is

like weather, but it's man made weather, you know. And and that's true, you know, And the degree to which there was only the degree that there's a bully pulpit for historical claims and narrative, you know, the kind of brief window an absolute turns brief. I mean between when visual media you know, from the movie house and then you know, to the TV screen and then like the ubiquity of you know, the the cable media cycle that was edged out by Internet very rapidly after it reached

the zenith. But there was a brief period of dizenith, you know, in the eighties into like the mid nineties, where we was just absolute okay, like it it was it could not be fucked with. It was like like you were like, if you were a visionist, you were a proverbial ninety pound weekling, and media was Mike Tyson

in nineteen eighty eight. Okay, like it there's just nothing you could do to it, okay, and even uh, even the climate was such that even even the people who are otherwise receptive you just come off like a crank okay, because you know, literally like the conceptual weather system you know, don't invoke the metaphor again, was completely at odds with what you were declaring, okay, and that the degree to which you know, Internet changed everything and cannot be overstated.

And that's why that's why Twitter went early berzerk, you know, like a few years back, and that's why Meg now, like you run an Internet. I just went in an our center that searched for polio, like not even because I was in a discussion with a guy who does a lot of research on AIDS and on like idiolog itsiological like sources of disease. So I don't know, like learn about polio. I didn't type in like is polio

fake or something. My first result is that there is a conspiracy theory that polio was created by the government or it's like I didn't ask that, you know, It's like, so they're showing their hand, like I could probably I could probably want to search like naval oranges or for like puppy dogs, and it would be like, you know, the Nazis massic puppy dogs because they were the most evil people ever or something like I should you not

it's like that extreme. But the point is like it's not they're they're not even they're they're not even willing to you know, just kind of like deploy like lesions of uh of like disinfo people to like you know, Twitter, like or do Instagram. And it's interesting and so many people doing like screen capture to like get like concepts out, you know. And then I'm interested in how they're how they're gonna They're already shutting stuff down into auspices of

you know, that's inappropriate for children or something. But it's that I don't want to go too far on the topic. But in the event, okay, so why is Spain and why did the Communists attack the clergy like this? I mean, like we know why, like in terms of you know why they hated the church and we know why you know, bullsheit at cadres if you like clergy people as standard bearers of of a counter revolutionary tendency of tremendous power, but just hand over fists like slaughtering clergy people. It

seems like it's bad optics. Okay, now, for a long time, what the what the elk? What the alibi was of the left in Spain. It was a strange transition period after Franco died. Franco was elderly, but he died somewhat abruptly and as you might have imagined the especially in those days, you know, in nineteen seventy five, there was not a lot of news coming out of Madrid about, you know, the the kind of health of Franco, but

also too like people like like ahead of state. Now he's got he's got like doctors, like a bosass figured of being literally like all the time, you know, like in those days, it was not like people even if you know, it was not clear, like what the state of somebody's health was always isn't There wasn't this uh, there wasn't this kind of a there There wasn't this kind of ongoing like revolutionary shift like there wasn't Portugal, you know, like uh like sales Ar among other things,

averted a buddy civil war, I mean, as a topic for another pod or series entirely. But Franco dies suddenly, it becomes clear that people aren't gonna accept you know, like uh, you know, the the reinstitution of just a constitucial monarchy. It becomes clear that like even if Franco had a successor, he wasn't gonna be up that either. Spain's now like been in NATO for many years, you know, it was, it's been, it's been integrated, poor man in Europe as it may be. It's it had been integrated

you know for decades into the ec it uh. But there were there was like in terms like the ideological culture, there was problems, you know, especially because you know, not just going to the Cold War, but it's you know, it's they weren't gonna I if they tried to pull like what South Africa did, you know, the Truth Reconciliation Committee or something like that, that things would have deteriorated, if not into you know, civil war like it would

it would it would have permanently gridlocked you know, the government, the emergent government, and it would have had no legitimacy. But the kind of alibi was always well that was the Soviets doing that, you know, and the NKVD was doing that, and the or these were just you know outlie, these these are outliers. You know, these were violent people doing terrible things because this was like a bad time. Well interestingly, this was uh well.

the outlying provinces. And these people were these were all political prisoners, okay, like some of them had been imperisrated on grounds that they were anti social or something. But these these are trumped up charges. These weren't criminals, Okay, that I need to make that clear. They were. They were evacuated over these weeks on mass and and and they were they were executed. They were just exterminated. The man responsible at that time for jails in public order

was a man named Solarius, Santiago Solarius. He was all of twenty one years old and man he thirty six, and that was part of his alibi, okay, upon return from exile with the that Franco, because everybody got you know, amnesty like the jury as well as like the facto. I mean, this was very much and then he spatter

to live through it. We'll tell you, I'm sure this was very deliberate, you know, like we we've got to finesse these bad feelings and let the past become the past, you know, which under more ordinary circumstances would probably be a laudable What the what Solario's defenders claimed the churse, Well, this these are just false propaganda, you know, outright, this

just didn't happen. But then it's evidence mounted it. Uh you know what uh what Solarios is people themselves claimed as well as kind of what the regime came to claim in like a soft pedaling kind of way, was that well, you know there were there were there were extraduicial killings that were wrong, but these were arbitrary and caprecious. You know, extradusial killings that were were isolated incidents. You know,

they weren't categorical, they weren't organized well. In two thousand and four, historian a guy named Whereverte, Spanish historian UH. Kind of a right friendly guy, but like more of a conservative, you know, not he wasn't the guy who could be just kind of dismissed as some like right winger.

I mean it's not really that's not grounds of objective grounds to dismiss somebody's findings anyway, But you don't say what I mean, like, this guy wasn't some idealogue with the you know, the kind of milk toast regime is the kind that you know can be only kind of regime in Europe after the Cold War? Would you can kind of dismiss the He began digging into the archives of UH, the UH, the Iberian Anarchist Federation and the National Confederation of Labor which united at some point prior

to the onset of hostilities. And there are archives were house in Amsterdam where I believe and I'm not trying to sit Dutch people. But there's there's a lot of there was a lot of communist cadre and revolutionary party archives and sensitive documents housed in Holland. Okay, I don't know why that is, but that I don't that can't be disputed. Okay, that's why these documents are located there.

Where Verite discovered the literal minutes of meeting, you know, between the Iberian Federation field commanders and the nationally federational labor like security element, and they literally described a classification protocol for who should be exterminated just on categorical terms. Okay, And these people who were evacuated, these political detainees, they

all fell into that category. Right. These are people are identified as fascist sympathetic, you know, people who were you know, lay people in the calyp Church who had some role

people just denounced, you know. And this was something of a mini scandal, I mean, not just in academic quarters, but because even even up two, you know, and unfree as occupied Europe is like Spain's kind of a different thing, not just because it's not directly occupied by America, but it's you know, it wasn't a direct combat into World

War Two. It's you know, there was more. I'm not gonna go as far First of all, I'm not an expert in the culture at all, but and I'm certainly not gonna go as far as to say that, you know, Spain is a more kind of reasoned view of historical matters. But it's different, you know, that can't be denied. And as I've dived deeper into this, that becomes clear, Like the historical controversies of Spain, you know, so they're a

buttle to this, uh evidence. There's a leftist historian named uh anghell Venas Venus claimed like, well, yeah, this happened these these dimnutes from the meeting, that not that not you know, a forgery. However, He's like, this was we were on we were being ordered to do this by the Soviet you know, like our predecessors, you know, they were being ordered to do this by the Soviet Union. And the man primarily colored build was a man named

Alexander Orlov. Who's Elexander Orlov. Well he was the chief of the nkv D in Spain. Okay, so, okay, there's problems with an alibi for a lot of reasons. It's like, okay, if you're under let's say, let's say that's undredercent correct. Okay, so you're under duress. Why was there an nkv D in Spain? I mean like there was there literally was an mkv D office in Spain, you know, and it you know, uh, I mean that raises questions of its own.

It's like, okay, well they got there somehow are he's saying, the Soviet Union invaded Spain. You know, you were powerless to resist them, you know, they they you invited the men to help you fight against a fascist coup that was burgen thing, but then they took over. I mean, this isn't it's not as this is preposterous, but I mean in some ways it's worse than what what the

initial allegation was, you know. But it also it cuts against to your point, like the alibi for the preceding you know, sixty seventy years had been well that was that, that was these that was these anarchists who were pragically fascists themselves. They had nothing to do with us, and

these were just crazy people. You know. It's like okay, so now not now you were acting under orders of the Soviets and not of the Soviets, but the n k v D. And like you had Russian officers who had you know, who are cadres who who had authority over your own people in the field, Like what is this? You know, like I weren't weren't you all a bunch of once you are a bunch of liberal democrats and you know, uh, and that's why and people love freedom like joined to go to go to go fight against

the fascists. I mean, like it's this like, on the one hand, on i'd say this, I'd say that this guy is not particularly credible, but again it's that in some ways that's more incriminating than what than the prima fati inferenced one would draw from documents. But it also too when I a friend of mine made this point when he and I were discussing this, and uh, you know, he's he's got a law background, like guy who I mean, maybe this is our kind of like bias in common

for how we approach evidence. But he's like, you know, he's like, there's a if you're that cavalier about like who you're gonna categorically annihilate? You know, we're talking about non combatants and we're not. We're not using euphemisms like these people are bandits or these are you know, partisans. You know, we're not we're not using the language of like me LII four and like saying, well, these people are insurgents, like conveniently like leaving out you know, like

their age, sex or or overall health. You're just like literally talking about like, okay, people identified under these categories just poltical detainees, you know, there to be terminated, Like you're very very confident, uh that this is never gonna

come to life. You know, it's basically you're you're not worried about being taken to task after you know, General Franco or you know, or his German allies roll over you and and then and then put you on trial for this or like you know, put two rounds in the back of your head as payback, or just because you know you're you've obviously you know, you're obviously an

irredeemable partisan, you know. And his point was that these people had assurances from the Soviet Union from day one, like don't worry about it, We're not going to let you lose. And I think that's a correct interpretation, Okay, I couldn't prove it in a corel of law. But you know, one thing you don't find. You don't find the Soviet Union like issuing, you know, in ninety thirty nine, you know, issuing telegrams to to field commanders about like

annihilating a non combatants at Cantyan. You don't find Heyrich Himmler saying like, you know, hey, by the way, you know these people this is a race war, and like these people are categorical enemies. So I'm gonna put on paper. I just think you should waste them all, you know. I mean, this is remarkable for a lot of reasons. Okay, I can I ask you a question?

pragmatic terms. Okay, Stalin had to show up to fight in Spain, otherwise he would have lost all credibility, as you know, like the Soviet people would have lost all credibility, as like you know that the vanguard of like the World Revolution and like as we discussed before, and it kind of currents wey capacity people misunderstand socialism in one country.

And what Stalin was trying, what he meant by that in literal terms, and what he was trying to project by that in a sort of dog whistle away, Like he wasn't saying like we have abandoned the World Revolution or that like we are some kind of like antarctic inward looking state, like a giant North Korea. You have not saying those things at all. Okay, You've got to

be pretty well versed to releasing the rudimentary capacity. You've got to understand like what orthan like Leninism is to understand what he was saying, and you've got to understand why the Soviet people like what on what basis they were claiming, you know, to to be like the first among nations, like in the Social Revolution. That's the connext with which to understand it. Spain was where like the

battle lines were drawn. Spain is where you know, the Bolsheviks collided, you know with the true like reactionary enemy like the Soviets had to show up to fight. What I think Stalin thought he could do was he thought the NKVD people like or a of people like Eric Milk. He thought that basically like uh, you know, he could

arm and equip uh the Reds other thing they needed. Uh. The Nationalists didn't really have a pot to piss in until uh Milch and Gary came to rescue, you know, after uh, after Canari's uh act is emissary for Franco's people, you know, and then and then the Reds had a problem. But you know, the view from Moscow was, uh, you know, the the kind of revolutionaries, you know, the Falanges, uh, the national Catholics, the Carlos, They're gonna get smashed. We're

gonna mop up. And if we have to stack a million bodies up, a priest non as Falangist and anybody else who's not with the program will do that. The Germans are then gonna freak the fuck out, you know, uh and anything, especially because uh, you know Spain and France it already like openly declared you know, sympathy if not you know, allegiance, you know with the with the Reds, that was going to exacerbate, you know, like the war

in the West that Stalin always believe was imminent. The uh, the Germans are gonna get bogged down like they did in nineteen fourteen, as like Germany bleeds white, like Stalin and the Red Army was gonna like smash from the through from the east. You know. That was like ideally would have happened, you know, but it wasn't. But just

Stalin wasn't ready yet. And that's that's that's something that the non aggression pack owes to also because there's this odd situation where I mean once once the Vermont actually did deploy and like I said, we'll get into like

Montoma's uh like ground element too, which is fascinating. Like the Germans were the Germans were fighting in Spain, it wasn't just you know, it was just like loof off like hot shots, like flying a handle with sorties, like you know, you had very much elements like going into ground action against the communists they were killing Russians, Okay,

and vice versa. Potentially that's explosive, you know, but again too like a non aggression pack, only only as a context that you're careening towards war anyway, I mean like it Otherwise it doesn't make sense, but it I believe that was Stalin's notion. But it's also the uh, the

Soviets for the durationem of their existence. I mean, people like like to look down in the Russians and like make fun of them and stuff, and I mean whatever, Like I I'm not gonna open up some kind of general general discussion about like the character of Russians or whatever.

But they the Russians are serious people, man, and like they like whate their shortcomings are, like in war in peace, they're really really good at intriguing and they're really really good at insinuating their people into them into proxy uh elements that serve their interests and kind of like fortifying and shaping those interests the way they want them to develop. Okay.

I mean examples are Legion. Okay, like right until the end they were doing this in in you know, in nicaraugu and I'll sell it or you know like they which frankly was incredible because that was that that would have been, that would have that would have been like the feather in their cap, you know, like, hey, we've got you know, we've we've got actual like us Lennon as client regimes. You know, I got on the American continent.

There's nothing America can do about it, you know, without waging some kind of jungle war with you know, half of half the country is in the Panama zone. But he hasn't mad like That's that's what I believe the Soviet notion was. And when when the Reds got the first of all in Germany came in like in the with when it deployed in depth the way it did, I don't think Stalin got very worried. I don't think he knew that the Germans were capable of that. I don't think a lot of people did. And plus it

was that's when Gering was like his best. Arguably he was an attic then and he but he he still had it together like Erard Millerts, who I think was the best. He was Eron Mills is one of the best field marshals the Germans had. The guy was like a literal genius, you know, and he later like he's the guy relieved the beleaguer Hrmacht and Norway and like literally saved the day, you know, like hevon Toma was one of the was one of the was one of

the armies best freaking commanders. Like these guys, these weren't like second Raiders who were going to fight in Spain. And you know, these were these guys who like the Kareama like they hear on the Loofaffa, you know, like at that point, and they they they they had a they very much had a sense of h and they're very gung hole guys. You know, they're like, hey, we're

going to fight the Rets. You know, We're not there's in some stupid war rope into against France because like we're always dealing with the French or something or it's not you know, it's not making meat and border dispute, like we're fighting the communists, Like this is it, you know, like this is this is uh, this is our chance to to smash these people, you know, like after they've been racking up victories, you know, for the last last twenty years. You know it, but it's hard to say.

I mean, Stalin playthings close to the chest. I mean what Stalin did say, and like we've got into both in the last episode on the Spanish War. But you know, in our UH, in our Second World War series throughout the nineteen thirties, Stalin addressing UH, like particularly cadres and general officers in the Red Army and kind of like feeling them out, you know, as as a group, you know, to see like really if they were like battle ready,

you know, in a general war against Germany. I mean, Germany's always like Russia's proble opponent, but you know what

I mean, like in more concrete terms. But then it was after about it was about nineteen thirty seven, ninety thirty eight that like suddenly Stealins are talking about like, look like you know, our doctrine, our our political doction in our battle doctrine is anonymous, you know, like we we we never fight defensively, like we always fight on foreign soil unless like you know, we're we're affecting you know, like a fighting retreat because we're expstentially threatened, you know,

like the uh, like you know, like the Bolshevik cause is inextricably linked, you know, to the to the Russian national ambitions. We started talking like a world word, you know, we started talking to uh, you know, like you started.

He started issuing these like procles from on high, you know, just to Soviet people, you know about like we've got you know, we can we can withstand any hardship and you know we we we can never like lose lose our faith and in the Communist cause, like no matter how grim things are for us moving forward, It's like, what was he talking about? He's not He's not He's not talking about like breadlines getting longer. He's not talking about it being really cold, mixt winner you know, he's

it's obvious what he's talking about. And it and Gearing it was thirty seven. I think when Gearing as uh, you know, he he went with like the loof off of like military liaison you know, to these to these to this aircraft factory in the you're alls, and like the single aircraft factory had like quadrupled the capacity of

like all German aircraft factories combined. Like I mean, you don't you don't build something like that like unless they're mobilizing for war, you know, I mean it's so I mean taken together it and with storians, including Bevar, they'll always say like, well, of course the Soviet you know, the Soviets, they tried to cast the war. They could try to guess warfare generally is like a schoolyard fight, like, oh, well,

you know, the Germans struck first. It's like, I mean, it's like saying that, like as like calling somebody who moves first and chess the aggressor okay, like it doesn't the Soviets, there's no such thing. If you've got if you've got five million men out their arms and you know, you're building military aircraft by the hundreds, like there's not

there's not a defensive purpose for those. I mean, there's defense and an offensive war doesn't make sense anyway, but it all that matters and strategic planning, his capabilities, and what Stalin was doing was he was amassing he was amassing the mightiest military force the world has ever seen. And then made the point once once the stories developed the bomb, even after the devastation of World War two, I believe Stalin was the single most powerful man who's

ever lived. Okay, people can't conceptualize that these days, I don't think. Okay, but that's what uh, that's what I think. Uh, that's that's what I think we might understand it was. But it's also you know, it bears noticing too that there was obviously, you know, like during uh uh you know, the Munich Soviet and during link the Weimar years. I know that, like Trotsky's forces had gotten spanked in Poland, and obviously the Soviets were like arming those cadres like

cause you know, havoc in Germany. But it's not you know that the n KVD wasn't deploying to Munich, you know, like I mean, it wasn't like the Soviets were, regardless of the fact that you know, again, uh, Soviet Soviet control is invoked as an alibi by apologists for communist violence in Spain, regardless of that, and regardless of degree of culpability and relative or absolute terms between the Red Spaniards in between the Soviet cadres, the Soviet Union had

an actual NKVD branch there, you know, they had it beyond like nominal like political representation just to be like relaying to Moscow the battlefield situation was, you know, like this, this was not normal for the Soviet Union, and I realized the Soviet news and the abnormal state. But in terms of its power, projection, tendencies and strategy, it this was an outlier in terms of how it usually behaved.

So you know, again I I think like a lawyer in terms of the evidence I favor and in terms of the way I calculate intention, particularly in war and peace terms. But motive means and motive that means an opportunity. It tends to be how you convinced the try refect of scientier. The court room is not uh bound by formal logic or anything. But we're talking about human affairs. There is something to that, you know, whether you're talking about individual men or were at scale. And again I

I I don't think this can be denied. And even even where their conspiguous absence of some of this, some of this data of an entry data. Again, the Soviets couldn't afford to not fight in Spain did over the Third Reich. But even more so for the Soviets, the uh did sit out World War One, and that interestingly, that that that contributed in in oblique ways to the political situation in the thirties, Spain was a weird state.

Man Like. On the one hand, I mean, Spain had an African empire, you know, they had They couldn't be said that Spain wasn't like a place of high culture. But they became this, you know, and again like they literally were like the first truly like national state in Europe despite their kind of inextricable relationship to the Roman Church in political terms, but they were something they weren't

are something of an inward looking people. You know, they weren't practicing a global politique or even really a European power politique, you know, like they there became an an unprecedented demand for Spanish goods during World War One because they were a neutral, but the influx of capital like caused all kinds of problems with they're already you know, kind of troubled currencies. It swelled the cities, which I mean is this the cities were were were you know,

they were the repository of red sympathy. But it's not as clear cut as people think, man. I mean, there was national districts in Madrid and in Barcelona, and uh there was also I mean, there were there was a there were there's people, there's guys, there's Catalan secessionists. We're just like catching their wag into the Communists because like they they thought that, hey, if we fight and like issue this is our demand, you know too, like the cadres, they'll have to give it to us. I mean it

was it was kind of a alligated pastiche. But another thing, guys like Beeborn mist understand it makes the point that he's like, well, you know, why, why why why Spain gets still behind the Gallic church and gets so outraged at the mask of a clergy. Only twenty percent of people went to church. It's like you can't you can't adjudicate like the kind of the conceptual spirit for like a better word of a country and a culture, like by how many people are like sitting in pews on Sunday.

Like even the way the Communists framed their propaganda was like Catholic. It was like a perverted iteration of it.

and he he doesn't really understand like like faith. It's like a conceptual sort of orientation. He probably use Americans as like a bunch of rednecks like me who like read the Bible all day and or idiots, and he use Catholics as like well they some of them don't even go to church, like not not even not understanding that.

It's like it's something that's like interstitially bound up with like your entire sense of culture, like you know, I mean, you understand this, but it's it didn't matter that, uh, it didn't it didn't matter that like most that that that most people weren't going to church. I mean it's but it's also too I mean even if I mean even if uh you know, the action French say, uh during their zenith, you know, they kind of they got they got kind of edged out by like later like

fascist and nationalists, uh militias in France. But you know, they they always made the point that like we're we're like a secular movement, but that doesn't mean you can attack the Mother Church, you know. I mean they they were willing to go to war to like protect uh you know, the Roman Church as uh as like the state religion of of of like what they viewed as like you know, the the ideal like French Republic moving forward.

You know, like I'm trying to say, like Italy, where a lot of people did go to church, but it'll like the Kingdom of Italy under a Duce was basically a secular society. You know, it didn't matter that like you know, half of Italians were like in church every Sunday, you know, I mean, it's it was totally different. And it's you know, like I said, it's it's something of a it's something of a blind spot. It's it's somewhat political and like deliberate and ideological, but it's something it's

part of it too. It's like a cultural blind spot

in this thing like too like it. You know, it's been redacted from this druga record that there's a huge outpouring of uh support for the nationalists cause in Ireland and uh the regime there of vale Era, like he had a problem he had to finish public opinion when I mean Ireland, just like the cleared outright neutrality on the on the question m a lot of even a lot of voters, you know, uh in the Republic who are basically like liberals, like why aren't you going to

defend the church? What's the matter with you? You know? And uh and the blue shirts, you know, Duffy's blue shirts mean two and three thousand men signed up to go fight on the nationalist side, like all irishmen, I mean Irons entire Ireland is a tiny country. That's significant, you know.

And in America, Cathlic media they give up signatures of school kids, you know, like they they got something like a million and a half signatures, like kids like progo school kids you know, saying like mister Rosevelt, while let it while we we love our sisters and and and and freeze, why why letting them be murdered by communists?

You know, I mean like that, and and obviously like New Geork types like I was just you know that that that's you know that that's that that's exploitative, and that's that's just you know, propaganda by by by atrocity story. But I mean it's what he's saying that this wasn't happening. I mean, you know, the the Gallix Church doesn't have

its own army. Stalin's famously said that, Okay, I mean like if you uh, the the church militant, it has to defend it, you know, I mean, and that's it, you know, as well as like as other as well as other you know, as well as other patriotic elements and and Orthodox guys and and you know in German

prads who you know, realized what the stakes were. But it's also during the Great during World War One, there there became h there became like a deep uh that's when the divisions originally uh kind of became like insurmountable.

Like it wasn't until the nineteen thre already, it wasn't until like the night that even the nine thirty sixth election, you actually had candidates for parliament saying, you know, like we will not accept you know, like uh a nationalist victory at the polls, like, well we will go to

war and vice versa. But the uh people uh military officers, UH, farmers, you know, people uh like clergy, people like laymen, we're activing the church, they tended to side with uh like kaiser Reich, you know, and uh and and these kind of and these guys like urbanite uh Franco file types like tend to decide with uh, you know, with with with London, Paris, which is interesting. It's uh. I mean I I was making the point that, like the war in Syria, one of the reasons, I mean, Sod's a

hero anyway, I mean, he's just a great man. But it was imperative for people on the right, you know, to to back Syria anyway they could, you know, in theater, uh and as well as you know, people in a position to like send money to to uh you know, the the the Syrians defending themselves in their gene from terrorism. You know, because that that that that that that that was not to the same degree and not to the same. Not it's not impactful in the way the Spanish War was.

But that's you better believe that was a was a war of zechdieist in ideology and thank god you thank god, you know, a sad defeated is Alamic terrorism. You know, that's brought to his brought to his own soil by by America and Israel. I mean, that's always the case. I mean, the you can tell, you can tell it was on the right the wrong side of the things

by the by the Ukraine War. And that's like a more that that that's a ridiculous example because it's literally just like this, it's literally just kind of like a human trafficking like Zionis mafia like propped up by you know, these like degenerates in Washington, you know, and they're they're just like there's like provoking a conflict against like all

strategic reason. But the point is, like anybody, you know, you better believed that's an ideological war and that you know, that's that that's like the designated battleground for you know, the uh between uh the opposing camps that constitute you know, both sides of the of the Zeitgeisser Press I would have been far afield today on on and what I wanted to talk about. I hope that was okay with people.

don't subject people to it. I think it's boring, But I want to get a little bit into like the mice for next time, and like how like the counter Reformation like impacted political thought, which ultimately made the kind of like being the nationalist coalition possible. But we'll get into like the actual onset of hostilities like in the

next episode that well, well we'll vote. There's a little background time to what I just referenced, but then kind of get into like the military situation and how it developed. If that's okay by you, it's your.

I am in fact shooting channel footage. It's an involved process. Actual like long episodes are probably only gonna come out want like bi monthly, but I'm going to start shooting like two and three minute videos like and will drop those weekly. Okay, But there's a lot that goes into what I'm not saying that play Martyr. I'm saying that to people. Don't think I'm being like slack and uh, season two of Mind Phaser, I I'm recording the next

episode with my dear friend Giles tomorrow night. That's going to be the last episode of season one and season two with the pod is going to change substantially, but I believe everybody will approve of the ways in which it's changing. Like we're not We're We're gonna stick to the same as of topics. So there's other things I want to emphasize and you'll see, Okay, and I'll give it a write up on my substick so to kind

of hit people to what I'm thinking. But yeah, and you can find me on substick at real Thomas seven seven seven dot substick dot com. And that's all I got for.

also you know, game future conflicts. But it relates in peculiar ways to the conditions that you know, power this decisions of an almost purely political nature, like the true the true revolution in military affairs was something that occurred on the command to control side, owing to the owing to the information age and the advent of it, I believe. But its origins lie in blitzkrieg or what some people commonly understand is blitzkrieg and how that doctrine came to develop.

The best explanation of what the controversy is, there's Basil Ladell Hearts, who I think is something of a problematic historian, but he does flesh out what the kind of the key variables are in in you know, material to the the question. John Mierschein, I find him more accessible. Mirshmm is highly theoretical, but he's less deliberately esoteric than somebody

like heart. And he presents these things, uh ironically because I think one of Meershimer's blind spots is the political conditions which underlie warfare at all times and what what the interplay is. I mean, he's very much a clouset whitsy and he's also very much, you know, a quantitative thinker. I mean, I got all like tremendous respect for him, but that part ways with him in basic terms in his understanding of the interplay of political and military affairs.

But his book Conventional Deterrence, Okay, it made it was it was highly impactful during the late Cold War. I h people always asking me for sources and things, all right, The Journal of the Atomic Scientists. You can find most of that the archives for free if you dig deep, okay,

on line. Now it's become kind of this like like you know, pointless kind of piecen like environmentalists kind of journal that no one takes seriously, but it had real relevance, you know, from the eyes of our era until you know, November ninetheteen eighty nine, frankly and the final phase of

the Cold War. It started running a lot of informed pieces by people like Meerscheimer about the re emergence of of of conventional forces as you know, a key variable, you know, owing not just to to to emergent deeper parodies. But you know, it's just like a more you know, the the information revolution it led to just more complete understanding of you know, the interplay of of conventional and nuclear forces in in a few in a then future

conflict with you know, then extant platforms. But this piece that I'm site, I'm referencing and generally a time of scientists. It's basically a condensed version of uh near Simmer's book Conventional Deterrence, which was published in nineteen eighty two, eighty two or eighty three, and obviously he the article it talks to from from you know, then current like from the headline's issues relating to the able Archer era and stuff and and the person to deployment and the UH

the the Minuteman system and things. But the book Conventional Deterrence remains relevant because it's about the best statement of

the controversy. The historians debate on the question of Blitzkrieg, Like basically it boils down to this, you know, was Blitzkrieg this revolutionary doctrine that was conceptualized in in purely theoretical terms before the Battle of France, specifically you know, whereby uh whereby people like Heinzkderian and uh people like uh Werner Gunn Fritz, were you know, understood that masked armor was gonna supplant conventional infantry, you know, as the as the the spare punt of of of of ground

assault operations. Or was Blitzkrieg this kind of uh, you know, technique that developed owing to the unique exigencies of the modern battlefield conditions, and you know, as uh as as as as the French collapse and as the mainline resistance you know, kind of rapidly just evaporated at points where

masked armor was employed. The great effect, you know, was was that just basically like you know, German battlefield commanders who who were strongly oriented towards what's called mission arrayed tactics anyway, and had an inherent you know, kind of

tendency towards experimentation and flexibility. You know, they just adopted these things like in theater, and then you know, very organically, ah, a combined arms doctrine developed, you know, like owing to trial and error under the critical conditions of combat or you know, was was it again like just a just a a theoretical coup, you know, owing to kind of the latent uh brilliance of the German general stat And

of course people favored the latter. That's really I mean that that sounds on it's face it might be particularly credible in like general terms. But the you know, the the Germans, the Prussian Army, and especially if you the Wehrmacht as the direct legacy of the Prussian Army, which

I do and I'm not gonna be disputed. They invented the staff structure, Okay, the United States, the UK, France, Japan, everybody imitated the Prussian staff structure, where you know, you have a permanent general staff that constantly studies in games warfare. And they also pioneered war gaming as we know it, okay, you know, like discreet scenario building with coded variables too, you know, tailored to mimic likely battlefield conditions and things.

So in the German case, it's a more credible postulate than it would be you know, as applied to there as applied to other military cultures in a speculative capacity. If you accept uh that blitzkrieg was a discreet doctrine that emerged, you know, from theoretical quarters of the Rmoncht, you also basically like like a concominant like claim they're in is that well, like Hitler sabotaged this by micromanagement or Hitler was basically like, you know, a siege oriented commander.

You know, he was uh, basically cautious in critical capacities, you know, and uh, I basically agree with that, but not for the reasons most people do. If you learn the way Hitler behaved in in in a warlord role, he wasn't this crazy, reckless gambler like a lot of core historians or Hollywood like make it out, you know,

quite the contrary. He was basically like a conservative German like siege commander, you know, and when objectives were reached, you know, he he was obsessed with protecting flanks and you know, constituting forces such that they could defend in depth, you know, if necessary. But in any event, one of the reasons why I think that the whole controversy was kind of a fool's errand it's because German armored doctrine it's testing ground was the Spanish Civil War. Okay, and

von Toma, who uh, as we'll get into. He's an underappreciated German commander more so than some of the other general officers which revisionists, uh, you know have kind of discovered weren't higher praise than they were afforded other for political reason and just because they were like overlooked in favor of these more kind of dashing characters like Rommel, or like Drrian, or like went manach thing i'd put uh,

I put Vontma. I consider him the same class as uh Rick Toffin, as Ferdinand Schorner with the last German Field Marshall ever. But he uh, he was a tactical genius, I believe. And that's the other reason I like that book by Hoffman Stalins Worb Extermination. It's not just because it's a it's great scholarship, but he makes that point in some of his other stuff too, that Ferdinand Schorners it was a great battlefield commander, but in any event,

armor was dispositive. In the Spanish Civil War and the nationalists, you know, the the Franco's forces, I mean, if you want to think of them as nationalists, fascists, you know, the like about the constellation of of of uh of of just fascists who had general sympathy for you know, the for the church and and for the you know, and for the for the traditional regime political and social. But they like however you want to describe on it was.

It was this kind of confederation of of of of different forces but sometimes competing loyalties and uh, you know, like we talked about before, before the loof Offa came to their aid, you know, not just to literally transport the forces and being they had across the entranean c to the battle space, but all you know, they they were they were in dire straits and one of the reasons why they were just out gunned was because, uh, the the enemy had uh twenty six tanks provided by

the Soviet Union, and those tanks were obsolete by the admin of World War Two, but they were they were in someways perfectly suited to the combat on the Spanish battlefield. And one of the reasons I emphasized Von Toma, It's not just because I've got you know, sort of like a nerve's interest in the ground element of condor leadings. I think it's cool. But out of all the men that you know, Hitler and you know, the the OKW could have deployed, you know, to command that element, they

chose von Toma. You know who was this guy who was a student of on Sikh, who was an incredibly progressive commander in terms of his understanding of combined arms and just an all around like really well rounded guy. You know. They didn't just drop you know, like some you know some some tried and tested you know, Prussian

infantry commander, you know, and that's from van Tooma. Also, like he was he was knighted owing to uh you know, World War One, and I mean he was, he was, he was granted the title for heroism, you know, like he wasn't born an aristocrat. So I mean this was a guy who really really had a ship together in command roles, you know, but he he uh he one second, he fought on basically he fought literally not basically, he fought in every front of the First World War two,

which was rare. He fought he joined the Bavarian Army an outside of hostilities. Uh. He fought on the Western Front and remittently finally fought the Battle of the Marn and was captured by American and French forces. If he gave a pow for the you know, the final two months of the war. But you know, he fought on the Eastern Front extensively and most men had not, with some exceptions, you know, spent like basically equal time like in the East and in the west, you know, like

he fought in Romania. He fought throughout the Serbian campaign, you know, very well on a guy. He was awarded the the the Order of Max with Joseph by the Bavarian Army, which was like the you know, his equivalent of the Blue Max basically, you know, but it uh it, it was equivalent of the Knight's Cross. And that's why he that's why he got you know, the the the

the honorific in his name. But he uh van Brauschich, who is kind of an under examined commander, I mean everybody, the falling out between him and Hitler, you know, in the wake of the very much being a hall stenter being halted in Moscow. It's kind of what he's most known for, as well as there's some strange intrigues he seems to have been involved in, you know, relating to the

July twentieth plot. But other than that, he's kind of treated as a footnote, you know, because for the remainder of the war, like you know, he'd been he'd he'd been castured out, you know, owing to him. The fear is loss of confidence in him. But he was a farmer dynamic character in at least in the terms of

you know, his profession and how he pursued it. Then people often acknowledge so he was uh, you know, he was he basically Van Brousa said, had you know, cultivated Ontoma's talents by by you know, asking of him they become an expert in arman warfare, which I assume Ontma had been kind of pursuing his own course of learning in that capacity anyway, I mean, just like going to

the battlefield record and everything else. He ended up commanding, uh, he ended up commanding seventeen pans are later on in the Operation Barbarossa, he fought at the Battle of Moscow. Then he was trying. He received the Knight's Cross, the Iron Cross. Subsequently he was transferred to North Africa and he was captured at the in the aftermath of the

Second Battle of l a Lamine. And that's why like uh, hearts like uh in the German General's Talk and like all the hearts like uh, you know, kind of books on on Hrmacht's leadership, like Montoma like features looms large because he was used frankly in the custody of of of the British army for years, you know, and he he developed something of a rapport with these guys, you know,

I mean it, uh, which is interesting. So I mean some people would say, like, well, you know, that gives him kind of an outsized presence in the historical record. I don't really think so. And there's plenty of especially after the cessation of hostilities, I mean, after the day of defeat, there was plenty of There's plenty of surviving general officers who you know, could have been debriefed all day and they would have been happy to have that either a lot in lieu of the gallows or you know,

being unceremoniously uh. You know, it's kind of like cast out as on persons. Plus to the British whatever we can, whatever we can say about them, they I mean, they're they're not a bunch of jokers when it comes to the capacity to evaluate military talent and command level. I think anybody would acknowledge that, regardless, regardless of their feelings about Old Blighty otherwise. But Ontoma ended up in Spain in October thirty six. The first shipment at German tanks

was forty one ponzer Comwagen type one pans Are one tanks. Okay, and like the T twenty six tanks that they were deployed to combat, they were obsolete by you know, ninety thirty nine forty but it again for the for the Spanish uh battlefield, they they were perfectly suited. And also the Germans, as the pans Are two had already been developed.

The pans Are one was being used largely as a training tank, like by the Wehrmacht because it, I mean, for various reasons and including it was it was just a simpler machine, you know, and it was uh you gotta understand too, like most men at this time, like it never even like driven a car, you know, so it's I even today, I mean with all the Advan and somebody would have and you know, learning how to fight in armor and you know, like a contemporary tank.

I mean, imagine, imagine a guy who's never even bending like an automobile, you know, like it. It's and plus, fighting an armor is scary. It's claust aphobic. You're in, you're inhaling diesel fumes, it's loud as hell like in those days. Your visibility is compromised, like if you get hit, you're probably gonna burn to death or you know, get your face ripped apart by shrapnel. I mean, it's it's no joke, you know. So training an armor is not just like teaching somebody to fire a gun, or or

to dry or to drive a shitty. I mean, I that should go without saying. But I maybe it's because I mean maybe it's because like I I don't like, I'm claust aphobic in a real way and my room went on. One horror is being burnt alive. But I I've always thought, uh, I've always I've always thought it would be uniquely uh scary to fight in that. And

I don't generally have a fear of higher situations. But the total, uh, the total number of pans are ones to reach Spain was seventy two as regards forces and being by the end of I still between nine thirty six thirty nine of total one hundred and twenty two were deployed, you know, including like replacements and everything else, you know, like going to owing to attrition and going

to you know, just a mechanical failure in things. But and like we mentioned, uh that the Nationalists were outgunned by the Soviet T twenty six, which were fitted with a forty five millimeters main gun, which was heavy heavy firepower, uh for the era the pans Are one, it's armament

was two M thirteen light machine guns. It was a truly light tank, like in fact, like pie today's metric or even by the metric you know of uh of you know, by the by the metric of you know, four or five years later, even by the mid forties, it'd be a like it'd be a like it'd be

a light armored vehicle. It wouldn't even be considered a tank, you know, and owing to these only this disparity of of arms and you know, fire power rather uh, like Spanish officers started agitating for the for the platform to be retrofitted with a BREDA twenty millimeter main gun. You know, Don Tomas strongly opposed this. You know, he said, you're gonna compromise the integrity of the hull. Uh, You're gonna literally have to drill holes that expose the gunner, you know,

the being targeted at visual range. You know, it's it's it's it's it's a it's a it's a fool's errand you know, and it was and that's important, you know, I mean it's not the Spanish were thinking about this, you know, like you know, like like like like like a like an infantry commander would you know, like we

we just need to match firepower. You know, it's Montoma understood. Yeah, I mean a lot of what goes into a lot of what goes into combined arms warfare, I mean always then and now, but also specifically, I mean, yeah, the German General staff has oriented towards you know, warfare is

the advance of fire. But it's not you know, packing as much firepower onto onto onto a platform, I mean for its own sake, you know, because you're you know, you know, it's it's some kind of it's not going to caliber race with the enemy is misguided, but it's understandable why they would think that way. But interesting, what ultimately was agreed upon.

for every fifteen ten to fifteen panthers. Was what made it most effective because you know they could you wouldn't you wouldn't sacrifice you know, the your defensive armor, you know, but you could bring the fight power to bear that was required you know, in in in killing enemy tanks or you know, assaulting hardened targets. But UH was also revolutionary was Comps Group TOMA as it came to be. It was reinforced by the three tank companies were reinforced

by an anti tank section. You know, because they think of eight anti tank guns, the early models, which again this is another this this platform popped up in the Second World War some but it was basically, you know, obsolescent because they didn't have the power to kill you know, the main battle tanks like the TV four, it was

the Ponzer abdur Khan and uh. One of the things people today, unless they're kind of students of World War two or like private service type guys, the advent of a main battle tank you know, which is uh, you know, which which can function you know, somewhat like an assault gun, you know, has the power to kill enemy tanks, you know, like going to its only its penetration capabilities and things, you know, like having that in on one platform. Like

that's that that's a post RUAR two innovation. I mean it can't. It started coming about during the Second World War. But you know, your tanks, your assault guns are dedicated you know, anti tank platforms. They these were like discrete, discreetly purposed set pieces. Which is interesting. But but Tom

was deployed as an obst latnant, which is a lieutenant colonels. Approximately, Franco appointed him quote tank tank inspector, which seems on its face largely symbolic of a title, especially when you consider that there wasn't a dedicated tank element, you know, armored element in the Spanish army, because there wasn't in any army really except you know, France and Germany, and then in both cases it was nascense in Italy too.

But Uh, this he Ventoma enjoyed tremendous authority, and there's a lot of surviving correspondence in the form of telegrams between von Toma, Franco's staff, Franco himself. One of the primary liaisons between between on Toma and Uh and the Spanish high command was Uh, a German guy who'd come up through the ad there, but he joined up with the Phalangeis outfit and he was fighting in Spain against the communists before you know, the Reich even deployed forces,

and he ended up working as Montoma's interpreter. It's hard to find out a lot about him, but he's a fascinating character. If I can find out more about him. Adolf Klaus was his name, I'll include it. But he became onntma's official interpreter and despite the inherent tentions, frankly, there was something of a classic culture is like stant not just because Montoma was kind of the consummate like Teutonic officer, like very uncompromising, very rigid, you know, very

very much a task master. The Spanish army was tough, like nobody would say that it was not, and I mean frankly, they would not have undertaken this crusading as the Communists facing the kinds of odds that were extant, like were they not very game tough men, but they were all fucked up. Their army was not at all professionalized. You know, you still had a lot of aristocrats in in in the officer ranks who felt entitled the things.

You know, it was rife with corruption, you know. Uh, there was all kinds of favoritism you know that had nothiing to do with uh, with an actual battlefield performance and suitability for command. There's vestigial trappings that code of Hidalgo and on Toma issued a scathing report when he'd

only been in country a couple of months. Among other things, he came to notice that although there's many volunteers, like for the tank branch, a bunch of other men, it's simply been ordered there by Spanish commanders who wanted to get rid of them. You know, so I will send him. This guy's a trouble maker. Were like I don't like him, or like maybe I want to even screw his wife or something. I know, I'll send him, to send him to the Cound of Religion. And von Toma pulled no punches,

and he uh, he threatened to leave. He threatened to in his words, uh, you know, just just just like resign command and leave. And he was able to convince Franco or more properly, I mean, I mean Franco was a Franco new what side his bread was buttered on. He recognized he needed the Germans and he needed Vontoma. But the whoever in the high command were, you know, his primary points of contact, he was able to finesse

them to you know that. Look like, whoever the men you send me, they've got to be the constant the Ponzer group. They've got to be comfortable with a variety of functions and roles of a type that you are not habituated to and probably are probably are our occupational functions of first impression, you know, like I said, they had to be psychologically tough and fortified to deal with the inherent difficulties of fighting and armor. They uh, he said that just in in in raw, like staff needs

or personnel needs. You know, when Thomas said there there had to be at least fifty volunteer troops posted at all times to the tank school, you know, the tank training around on Tone was overseeing twenty five dedicated gunner trainees, twenty five dedicated drivers you know, being uh you know, after a after their initial training subjective, they should then undertake a four week course, a combat training course, upon completion of which they could be immediately posted a front

as needed as replacements to be a constant rotation of tank crews you know, who are highly trained in every every function of armored warfare. You know, the the to get her, you know, they they were habituated and they'd be accompanied by their officers or n CEOs you know that had overseen them during the training cycle. And Montmo

insisted upon this too. This is a general postulate that was to become doctrine squad CEOs who are who would be NCOs in the Spanish Army I believe, you know, like senior n c os and company commanders who would be officers they they when told says they had to always be present with their squad and company actively leading the men from the front. This was not this could

you know? This was not negotiable. And he concluded this report by stating openly that if the tank section cannot make up for the casualties that you know they're going to suffer with troops and commanders and n c os who were both tactically and technically proficient, that we're going to lose the war. You know, It's just there's no two ways about it. You know, this war is going to be one or lost with the ground element, and uh, it's gonna be one by proper deployment of the of armor. Okay,

And now I hope it's coming into focus. Why I subjected the listeners to that extended introduction about the revolution and military affairs and Meersheimer's postulates they're in and the you know that what's what can be thought of as the Blitz Greek controversy. Okay, because what I am positing is in rebuttal to both of those perspectives, as I'm sure people are discerning. I'm not any kind of military

expert at all. Okay, but I do know something about history, and I do know something about you know, the Vermont, all right, and I think, uh, I know something about military science as much as uh, you know, like a layman who's not like a game theorist or like a prior service officer type. Can you know, people are welcome to take me to task for this, and I mean it, you know, I make myself available anybody who wants to

debate these things that I propose. But you know, like I said, I'm relying upon the direct testimony of the participants to these events and uh you know the uh and relying upon you know, the conditions leading to the outcome of disengagement. You know, it's I don't think it can be said that I'm speculating. Lontma also, and again this is something that people generally only discussed from the iconics the Battle of France. I realized the first open

ended deployment of the Fairmacht was in Poland. But Poland didn't have a meaningful uh you know, tank section. So we're talking about you know, modern combined arms between you know, between forces where it's like a general parody. You know, technological as well as numerical are our r analysis begins. In nineteen forty Lontma directed that tank companies can only

could not operate in isolation from one another. They had utilized, they had utilized massed firepower and advance of fire and addition, the transport company and the supporting mobile workshop and maintenance company. You know, they had to be maintained at optimal capabilities and deployed to the front at all times and support the assault element, you know, regardless of the drain that this is gonna you know, place on on the regular infantry and on you know, the corp of engineers and

anybody else. You know, this is yours, this is your assault element. This is the share punk of your assault element. You know, it has to take absolute priority and that yeah, okay, we take that for granted today. But again this is this is nineteen thirty six in Spain. Okay, armored armored warfare as we know it doesn't exist yet, you know, and this is four years this is three three years and some months before the Battle of France. Okay, so

this is remarkably sick. I spoke a moment ago about there's a lot said, especially because you know, relations were not always particularly amiable. You know, between the Germans and their Latin allies, whether we're talking about you know, the Italians of the Spaniards. A lot of people insinuate that there was a kind of like ugly racial prejudice at work there. I think that's overstated what came to be

known perhaps kind of you know. I mean, it's what came you know as a Tomorrow affair, which seems to overstate the significance of it, you know, by characterizing it

as with some sort of scandal. On December thirty first, nineteen thirty eight, but Tolma sent an urgent telegram to Infantry Colonel Ricardo from that this the tamer he was the primary liaison with Franco's high command or the equivalent of a general staff okay, and in some basic capacity, and uh, this was going into the final phase of the war. Vntoma demanded know on certain terms to be infeigned beforehand of any change of an operational or logistical nature,

or any personnel related matter or policy. And this had all these things that to be subject to his view or approval, you know, And he reiterated, I, you know, I was appointed by Franco his tank inspector. You know, and is is a demand is not immediately obeyed, I will withdraw my contribution. In his words, So again this is him threatening to throw his hands up and resign. You could read that as him being a prima donna of a sort. I think he was entirely serious. I

don't think that can be disputed. And again you're looking at this army, which you know in the Spaniards, which again has some very core of very game tough men, but it's unbelievably and most comically corrupt, you know. Uh, and it's only kind of held together at the level of a general officers by people like Tom Marie, who were you know and later surrouno sooner who will get into it. Was a great man. But uh, you know, cracking the whip on these people was uh what was essential?

You know. It doesn't owe to some kind of like Teutonic racism against you know, Latins or something, which, uh, that kind of interpretation has become increasingly common. I've noticed, you know, even in like military history, which is supposed to be just kind of like hard and fast accounts of the facts, you know, and the uh, the quantifiable

side of things. I think that's bullshit. You know, I mean, that's why I but it's also there's what came of of uh the Thomery memo was or telegram by Tomac Gott. Whatever he wanted, he got everything he wanted, you know, and he he basically became the de facto you know, commander armored forces for nationalist Spain, you know. And that's that goes to short of the degree to which the Wehrmacht was the key to you know, uh nationalist victory in the war. It wasn't you know, the loof Off

made a tremendous contribution. And and like we discussed, you know, in the previous two episodes, Erhart Milch was was it was a was a military genius and an incredible commander and one of the greatest air commanders of all time. I take nothing away from that, but it was you know, wars are won, you know, by by the ground element, Okay, they are, and this was essential to that effort. And we're not just talking about, you know, with without von Tolma, like there is no there is no there is no

Spanish armored element. You know, you're throwing your you're throwing Spanish industry at these t twenty six tanks, they're being cut to pieces. You know, is the fact not only that he was able to constitute you know, armored force or before there had been nothing, but he managed to do this really with a handful of of pans or ones, armed with a couple of light machine guns and not particularly durable armor. And he was able to convince a much of proud Spaniards to basically like hand him like

absolute authority over the over the entire enterprise. That's that's

nothing sort of remarkable. I don't don't think it could be contested, but there's uh, subsequent and particularly in like the final months of the war in ninet thirty nine, they developed this kind of like genuinely amicable cordiality, at least as far as you can discern through the language barrier and through their you know, brevity of of these written communicats and telegrams between Montona and tamer But the uh, the rest of these Spanish officers too, who initially had

a you know, been not out and out hostile because they realized the various situation and that they needed they needed the Germans. But you know, they certainly Spaniards are a proud people. If nothing else and it was a better pill for them to swallow a seed control a Veramacht officer in that way, although there's no shame in that, you know, the Vermont was the best and they're they're

the greatest of all time. By the end of the war, ultimately, Spanish tankers they were undergoing a sixty day course basic course for all personnel, you know, those uh, those who were trained to be drivers as well as those training to be gunners. It was thirty days of theoretical training, thirty days of practice duration and then UH intensive combat

training and then deployment to the front as needed. So there's a constant you know, like as has discussed a moment ago, there was a constant flow of replacements, you know who UH had at least cohesion within the squad of a KI and that only comes from you know, living and UH fighting together ordinarily because they'd gone to the training cycle. And a lot of these men were combat veterans too, just not of you know, obviously, not of fighting an armor. You know, some were, some had

no no prior experience, but they were the minority. But the UH what's fascinating too is that the UH, the anti tank element that Montou insisted upon that particular assault gun.

It was a three point seven centimeter assault gun. It was manufactured by Ryan Medel Borsing, and it rapidly became ubiquitous like that itself, that like that making lott of itself as well as reverse engineered knockoffs in the in this in the Red Army, in the in the US Army, the Japanese imitated it, uh, the the the Wehrmacht faced them in the in the Benlux countries when they went through Holland. The Italians deployed it, you know, as late as uh as late as forty three, like around the

time the Celeronal landings. So again, like even even though these uh pretty much every pretty much every weapons platform we've described again it was like obsolescent, but they had been a World War Two. But these were perfectly suited to the Spanish battle space, and it was uh, it was the experience of these platforms they're you know, in heavy combat over years that led to the development of

you know, successor technologies. And I find that fascinating, and you know, that's why, like I said, there's plenty of historians who posit that the the Second World War actually started in Spain from a historicis's gonna hit the Ali perspective, I've got more than a little bit of sympathy for that perspective. But it's also military objectives were oddly bound up with policy objectives in the twentieth century in a

way that was not conceivable before or since. And it wasn't just that, you know, the German rech and Hitler himself had a concept of Laban's wrong and racial posterity and the need to develop Europe into a superpower, the

age of the superpower. It arrived. That was part of it, but it owed everybody, from Werner Sombart to George Sorell to uh Ernest Younger made the point, you know, sometimes obliquely, sometimes very directly that just the nature of labor and production and technics in the first half of the twentieth century just lent itself to warfare and organized violence at scale just became something like potentialities therein like led to it being a tactic of first recourse, you know, whether

you're talking about the internal situation of states or whether you're talking about you know, resolving irridentist claims as we're always you know, an ongoing issue in a European cabinet politics, you know, there's not I made the point again and again. It's fascinating that the German contribution to the Enlightenment, kind of their only full embrace of rationalism was in military science. To Clausalis, But war is not just diplomacy by their

means or politics by their means. There's always a political aspect of warfare. But going to war do unders solve political problems, you know, in fact, it almost never does. The twentieth century, in a rare capacity, there was a perfect congruence between military power and the ability to realize high political objectives, and that is kind of the moral

of the story here, if there is one. I realized that this was a very heavy, uh, kind of technical discussion, but it's important to understanding the German contribution to the war, and I wanted to this is this is my dedicated Condo Relegion episode. We'll get into the Flange and we'll get into the ideology of the Spanish nationalist and we'll get into kind of the development of the situation there in the next episode. But I wanted to get this

out of the way. Plus I hope people find it interesting because I I mean, admittedly, one of my primary research areas is the Third Reich. But even were that not the case, that this positive variable in the Spanish Civil War was the intervention of condo religion or by condo religion. So I think, uh, I think it's just material on its own terms.

As I've said, I've uh, I know, I said about a week ago, I was gonna drop a statement of my substack about moving forward, like how things is gonna work relating to you know, I'm gonna make a lot more stuff free. But also, like I said, I there's some projects I kind of want to plug that I I had to put in the back burner, like going to frankly like ill health and stuff. But that's back on track. I'll explicate that on my substack by this weekend. I'm not going to take up Peach time when his

show to do that. But thanks again for the invitation today and always, man, I hope everybody found this to be constructive and stimulating well.

I do. So yeah, I can't thank you enough, as well as the people who tune in and you know, were mean engaged. That's just great.

is to us just two things. People ask me why I'm so critical of Franco, because the Franco somewhat revered, and part of that owes the frankly kind of the lingering kind of a lingering Cold War hangover, you know, especially after Spain sort of normalides, and you know, not it was brought into the the e C at least in a rudimentary way, I mean ship back then it was the European It was the e c S, the

Cold and Steel Community, you know, by Eisenhower. It wasn't until much later that Spain was assimilated in the NATO. But the Franco regime is always it's uh. And I mean even before that officially assimilated and formally assimilated in NATO, there was a lot of you know, during command post exercises and stuff, you know, like Spain would you know, be included in a basic way there was Spain was kind of viewed as you know, the good guy, uh,

like quasi fascist regime during the Cold War. And I think that a lot of scholarship, like otherwise pretty based and pretty correct, you know, right when it's dollarship. You know, that was written in like the seventies and in the eighties. You know, I think people internalize that. And also you know, their their kind of view of Franco is of you know, the Flange movement and you know the heroics of of the war and you know kind of reliegion and all

of that. You know, they they they don't realize kind of how perfect it is and and and machiavellian Franco was. And I think that could be justified if if what Franco accomplished with some sort of enduring political culture, you know, that of that that served you know, the Spanish as a people, you know, and as as a race, you know, in historical terms and things, But that that's not at all what he accomplished. I mean, Franco at the end

of the day, accomplished nothing. I'd say that he was a detriment you know, over the over the long term. But you know, so people ask, I want to get into a little bit like what exactly you know, Franco's sensibilities were on political matters, you know, pritically at the most critical junctures, you know which and the most critical obviously would would be the the warriors that the Second

World War, I mean not the Spanish War. But also people ask me like what what exactly was the nature of the relationship, you know, between Madrid and Berlin and and Madrid and the rest of the Access Alliance, and uh, you know, I've made the point that Serrano soon there was a great man, and he was very you know, he was he was very very pro axis. You know,

he he wanted to formally join the Access Alliance. And we'll get into who soon there was in a minute, but so I kind of want to get into that today and then we'll pivot in the next episode and talk about, you know what the Falange movement was proper and ye pick up as a follow up, uh, you know, to the ear each a episode we just did. But for now, for today, that's that's what I want to cover. And plus it's like on my mind, I was, I was researching this a bunch, like owing to some other

stuff I'm writing. So, I mean, it's convenient too, There's only so much time in the day, and while it's like fresh in my mind, That's kind of what I wanted to get into. David Irving who I I mean, it goes out saying I've got a huge esteem for him. Irving lived in Spain and one of his one of

the one of his wives was a Spanish woman. I think his first wife was a Spanish woman, and he famously said life and quote life in Spain during the Franco years was very cheap, very simple, and very unthreatening. There's little criminality, no drugs and no street muggings. The roads were primitive, the life was quiet, and the sunshine meet up for everything. I mean that was kind of In some ways that's like a very English like backhanded compliment.

In other ways it's you know, it's it's a very on the nose suggestion that you know, Spain was just remained a backwater, you know. I mean, I realized there was a Spanish miracle and uh, you know, conspiracy conspiracy minded types like say like oh that was Opus day, you know, laundering money through Spain under rospices of economic development. I don't even I don't have any opinion on that. I don't. I don't get to know interesting Catholic fights,

and I'm not a biggest I don't. I don't tear down the Catholic Church, you know, at every opportunity like some revisionists do, pite the contrary, but regardless anyone's feelings on that, I mean, Spain was not exactly lighting the world on fire, okay, like in the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies, you know it it Uh, it remained kind of an splendid,

splendid isolation. It was I think about almost as kind of like a right wing version of of like the Tito model, you know, like obviously like there there wasn't I mean that there, I realized that Spain's you know, had and has like you know, violence, separatist movements, and it's ethnically diverse. But you know, obviously it's it's nothing like the hostility between between populations like in the Balkans.

But you know, Tito's whole notion was to keep you know, just kind of keep things frozen and keep this kind of quarantine almost like prophylactic armor like over you know, the the the nation of the Constitute of Yugoslavia like contrivances it may have been as a state. You know, it kept the Soviet Union out, it kept America out, it kept everybody out, you know, kept the Germans out, the bundesh and even even Germany was very much tethered to the Balkans and not in geostrategic terms, you know,

as we talked about before. It's why Helmet Cole immediately recognized two Jamon's independent Croatia. But the point is, uh, such that Franko accomplished anything. I mean, he basically yeah, he basically just uh you know, he basically just just just put Spain under like lock and key, like you know, in every concee sense, like figuratively and literally, but again that's not that doesn't generate anything sustainable. So what what uh?

What exactly happened between Germany and Spain? Rib and Troup was you know, as foreign minister was primarily charged with finessing the Franco regime, you know, to join the war effort.

But what what the Reich needed the Spain? The Reich needed, uh, the Reich needed unconditional access to Gibraltar. The Reich needed the Spanish to join in Africa and abandon you know, the uh, the uh, the uncompromising claims they were making on French Africa as well, particularly not exclusively Morocco. Finally, Spain basically needed to needed to do avail itself as as as part of Fortress Europe as uh. You know, France that had done admittedly like post defeat, and France

plays into this equation more than people might think. Okay, the UH, France and Germany despite what people claim, like there was not like VC France and then free France. I mean it's uh. Obviously the Gaul was uh, you know, the Allies were suggesting that you know, de Gaul was the true like you know, French president in exile and that you know, Peten's regime was illegitimate. But Peten was literally a national hero, okay, and the French accepted the

fact that they were defeated. You know, I posted up the other week or the other day of my timeline footage of uh. You know, the Germans like you know allowing uh, allowing the defeated French like full honors and allowing to like march past you know, the Wehrmacht like as they were like saluted, you know, and in full regalia and everything. I mean, this was very much of a

Westphalian paradigm at work. Okay, you know this idea that you know, France just hated Germany with this kind of like hell bent passion, and you know, the v regime was was was completely contrived and was a fiction like that's not true. And furthermore, the British immediately uh began attacking French forces in Africa. You know, they killed thousands of people, you know, not French touristmen, civilians. I mean

we'll get into that too. But essentially, what the Reich needed in the West, they needed France and Spain somehow come to terms, you know, on sovereign claims in Africa. Spain had to you know, cooperate operationally and politically with you know, a Gibraltar operation, and you know, Spain had to fortify and you know, prepare for prepared to resist any Anglo American assault a Spanish or Portuguese coastal soil and those those you know, those were basically like what

the fears and ambitions were. But even then, as things had developed, I mean with respect to you know the pattern of hostilities between combatants, you know, regardless of ideology, because you know, the war in the West was very different than the war in the East. There were certain

complexities present there, even in purely geostrategic terms. This what I just outlined is what would have what would have been required, Okay, you know, notwithstanding the idiosyncracies the actually were perceived of, you know, the respective regimes in place and in Vase, in Berlin and in Madrid. It uh.

On September nineteen forty was uh when Hitler first directed Ribbon traup, you know, to push as hard as he could for the Spanish to cooperate with you know, Gibraltar offensive and to you know, encourage him to join what he called the Grand Coalition. Hitler said to Ribin Trump and on certain terms every aspirant would have to be left and the quote heavy belief that his wishes would be largely fulfilled. Rybond Troup wrote in his own notes that to accomplish this would require quote fraud on a

grand scale. Raymond Tropp wasn't saying, like, oh, Hitler you know, was uh was you know, anticipating, you know, perpetuating such

a fraud. Like what he was saying was that Hitler's dreaming because this can't be realized, going to the going to the unwillingness of the of the the parties, to the you know, to you know, to the situation, you know, and their and their unwillingness to you know, compromise on issues that might appear to be of secondary importance from you know, where Hitler was sitting in Berlin, but you know, was of paramount importance to you know, to them, and

looking at it too, like it wasn't just a prestige thing what Spain and France were looking at in Africa. I mean these particularly with the you know, the uh, the realization of strategic air power. But yeah, uh, these were extential matters of of of security, you know, to the states that orded the Mediterranean. So I mean that that should be that should be clear. And plus to

the you know, the Spain in France were not. There wasn't the there wasn't the ongoing you know kind of enmity, you know, only the kind of the tragedy of strategic situation that there was between Germany and France. But France and Spain weren't natural allies by any means, you know, I mean, it's not it's not as if there's some sort of you know, common bond owing to you know, Latin heritage and the Roman Church or something. It did it Really it was just absence, even between Portugal, even

between sales there's Portugal and Franco Spain. I mean that didn't exist, you know, I mean it wasn't that might seem strange on some level the people who live, you know, in kind of the globalized twenty first century, but at the same time, like it doesn't, you know, Europe, a lot of these a lot of these political cultures were still mired and kind of like the War in States period, you know, which endured in Europe until nineteen fourteen. I mean, you know, and not you know, in a in a

real sense. I'm talking about abstrac postules here. Something. There's that to keep in mind too. Even a Franco was more worldly. And even if the ten was you know, a younger man and not you know, this kind of inflexible you know, Octageneerian Field Marshal I. I don't think it would have been any easier to accommodate them, you know, these kind of competing egos and demands. The uh what

Hitler's plan was at the Berghoff. You know. He his timetable was this, he was going to contact a former French ambassador, Poncet or Poncet, who Hitler had always had a good rapport with. He was gonna feel him out about a personal meeting with the ten and basically use him as kind of like his unofficial emissary. He would would visited to pretend, he would make his pitch to contain that, you know, the United Kingdom, regardless of the outcome this war, is going to leave France out to dry.

You know, they've humiliated they've humiliated France not just at the car but also by you know, assaulting and sinking. It's a navy in uh Algeria. You know, it's it's you. You have to accept the situation as it is that you know, France and London are at war and you know Germany is really, uh the only port you have in a storm. And once he got a war guaranty from Paten, he would take that to Franco and UH ask Franco to advocate if not moderate Rich demands to Morocco.

Take that to pretend and used as the basis for future collaboration, which seems somewhat hair brained, but again, a lot of what Hitler got done was based on personal relationships and the fact that he was able to finesse

these relationships into actual policy commitments. Something this precedent for this, and what Hitler had accomplished in the proceeding, you know, several years, including after September nineteen thirty nine, you know, so this was not just a pipe dream, and people can't just dismiss it out right as oh, you know, that was just Hitler being crazy, because everyone knows Hitler went crazy, you know, after after you know, the Battle of Moscow or something or whatever they like to say.

But Hitler interestingly too Pierre Leval, who was the Prime Minister of France, he ended up being the prime mini from nineteen forty two to forty four, April forty two to August forty four, you know, and he'd served previously in the in the same role in the Third Republic from thirty one to thirty two, and then i think from ninety thirty five to thirty six thirty seven. So again that and Hitler and Laval had had a basic

rapport or there their respective liaisons, did you know. But again I raised this because it becomes somewhat significant later. But it's also like Laval again, he he was serving you know the quote VC government, which supposedly was you know, this illegitimate regime. I mean, this was not uncommon. I mean, he was one of the most he was one of the more prominent you know, cabinet ministers who it's off

in the same role that he had before. It's like the idea this was just some kind of like you know, client regime that you know had no kind of like organic legitimacy or something is nonsense. But Hitler, uh, Hitler sent out feelers to Laval as well for the purpose of h and Laval didn't have any formal office at this point, for for the purpose of getting a personal

audience with Patent, which was no easy thing. And again you know, it tells you too like Hitler's approaching Paten, you know, carefully, and he's treating him with all the

honor and respect of a field marshal. But also as you know, with sovereign had a state, you know, I mean, like think about this, and especially Hitler, who was definitely more kind of cultured and diplomatically cautious than people allege, but who is not exactly you know, a man who favored a for nests over or action sometimes brute action and the threat of it. You know, it's like if if, if the VC regime is this completely artificial regime, Like why isn't a Hitler just directing the Tan to do

whatever he orders? You know? I mean it's that right there. I mean kind of shoots the pieces the the narrative of you know, VC being artificial or you know, France just either like not existing after you know, cessation of hostilities in nineteen forty, or you know being this is completely astro turf like artificial edifice, you know. And I bring it up to people again and again, and.

it doesn't. Yeah, you got you gotta look at France as one of these not obviously they were not formally part of the access to alliance and there wasn't that kind of command and control integration, you know that uh, you know, such was the case with you know, like Romania, but or Italy. But they definitely were on the side of the axis where the rubber I'm at the road and the key theater of engagement such that you know, France was still capable of projecting power to protect its

its core interests. And yeah, exactly that was in that was in Africa. Now what did lebal say and is uh response to Hitler? This very much emboldened to Hitler with respect to you know, his Mediterranean strategy and his ultimate goal of you know, bringing Frank go into the fold.

After his meeting with the ten, like Laval said, you know, Britain the dragged France into an unwanted war then abandoned her you know then you know, made war honor for smirching her honor and killing her people at the Nurse el Kabur a breached catapult. That was July ninety forty, that's where the British assaulted destroyed the French fleet, killing

over twelve hundred people like French servicemen and civilians. And then more recently in September as we in the as we mentioned in the port of the car in French West Africa, and again several hundred not just servicemen but French civilians were killed. But friend force is held, you know, and Lavelle promised, uh to return, you know, to see this, you know, to seek audience with the ten and uh, you know, return of the answer in two days time.

And uh that's uh, that's exactly what he did. October twenty third, Hitler believed ninety forty two days subsequent. Hitler believed that Franco's willingness would absolutely depend on the tenor of uh of of of the approach to it. Uh like what is yeah, like, what is meant by that?

you know it was. It wasn't just like some people speculate, and I mean Franco was a limited guy and and and kind of a buffoon like a lot of people I've read it speculated like, well, you know, this was only for domestic you know, consumption, because Franco didn't have an actual mandate anyway other than from this kind of coterie of officers and you know, and uh and phialangists who are who are a minority within the party, I might add, you know who kind of agreed to cooperate

every sensation of hostilities. I don't believe it to be true at all. I think, uh, as time went on, and as we'll get into and as I mentioned this, before we went live, Franco's demands we were deliberately like so up tos and so unreasonable that you know, it was it was kind of his way out of joining the war, but these demands, like you know, Franko's obsession with Morocco, you know him, you know, saying you wanted like equality of status like in you know, in terms

of maritime passage and the Mediterranean. Like he meant all these things like on their own terms, like over stupid that might seem. And he uh, he actually viewed Spain as some like serious major power, you know, and again like raposterous? Is that? Uh? As that might seem. As

it happened, Hitler met with UH. Hitler and the UH Ribbent troup and the UH the diplomatic contingent was the diplomatic contingent respectively, of the Reich and of National Spain met UH before Hiller got his audience with the ten on October twenty third, ninety forty. It was the h in the frontier town of Hindai, Hindi, France. I'm sure I'm butchering the pronunciation. Hitler was president, obviously, Franco was president,

so is von Ribintrov, and so is Toronto. Sooner. Sooner was the newly appointed foreign minister who was surrounding Soonior. He was Franko's brother in law, but more importantly, he was president of the traditional of the quote traditionalist Spanish felanx and of the councils of the National Syndicalist Offensive. What that was is that was the that was the only legal party in Spain, and it was it had come about by merging of the Palange and the Integralist

Catholic Traditionalist Union. Okay, part of the kind of optics the Franco regime where they claim to both represent the Church and represent the Falanges, which was a fiction if anybody knows the history of these Tennessees, and we'll get

into that next episode. And there was a revolt of the Phalange against uh against Franco's dictatorship, and that ultimately the kind of the kind of enduring ripples of that ultimately led to Snare's dismissal because Snaire actually was a dedicated Falangist, you know, and had he not been related to the Cuddillo, he would not have found himself in

this role. There's a cruel irony here too, because the Acabam Ribbon shrow Up and surrounding Snare came to quite literally hate one another, and they'd had quite a lot of contact during the Spanish Civil War and beyond and Ribbin Trump was beside himself and soon Era was appointed Foreign Minister, and Ribin Trump was uh the anniversary of his death, I think it was last year when the

university was death rolled around. I remember talking on Twitter and in some other on some other platforms with people they were asking me what my take on Ribbin Troup was. There were some incredible diplomatic coups that Ribbon Troff pulled off, and he had some remarkable insights in at key junctures.

But at the end of the day, he was an international businessman, okay, in business a diplomats and and uh, no matter what, the most prestige posting before he became the Foreign Minister was his ambassador of the United Kingdom. And no matter who had been in that role, you know, he would he wouldn't He wouldn't have made any any headway, okay, because you know, for reasons that should be obvious to anybody,

but that we covered extensively in our earlier series. But Raymond Troup was incapable of of of coming to terms with people who he developed a relationship characterized a personal animus opposite. And this was the case of soon Air and like you know, and Like I said, Sooner, not only was he Uh a dedicated philangist, he was he

was he was incredibly pro Axis. The previous September, the month prior UH Sooner visited Berlin, he'd sought out Ribin Troup at the Foreign Ministry to discuss how Spain could enter the war on the Axis side. Like now, mind you like, Sooner knew that Franco was dragging his feet. He knew what Hitler's demands were, and he knew that those demands were sound and strategic as well as political terms.

He also knew that, you know, part of Franco's strategy, it would be the issue demands that could would would not reasonably be met either because you know, realistically, you know, forces and being weren't there we're you know, and and and those that were like that, you know, food stuffs, petroleum, weapons, aircraft, you know that which was in being you know, Berlin would never part with because it was an unconstable demand.

But soon they're honestly visited the Foreign Ministry in good faith to try and realize terms by which uh, you know, Franco would be painted into a corner. In my belief, in my opinion, you know such that you know, the uh, the Reich would contribute, you know, everything that possibly could

to facilitate Spain's entry into the war. So I mean soon Air and Ribbon Trump wanted the same things and uh they uh they but they couldn't they, you know that they couldn't overcome this this kind of personal animus what uh Ribbon Trump reported and Raybon Troup was something of a haughty two ton of uh you know, a caricatures sort And again that's another reason I think he should not have been in the role that he was.

But soon There uh said that, you know, Caudillo demands you know, all of French, Morocco and Algeria, you know, for Laban's wrong. But this could probably be finesse if you know he was offered Portugal because geographically speaking, in Soonor's words, Portugal has no right to exist quote and this apparently raged Ribbon Throp. You know, like, who the hell is this Spandard think he is? You know, Spain

is a is a ship country. It's you know, he's talking like he's you know, he's talking to me like we're peers. And you can almost see like if you read about these personages like you almost you almost like feel this like outraged ribbon trop But I mean again, if you're a diplomat, you've got to stay cool no matter what. But again, part of the tragedy of this is that a man like soon Air Well, I think it was a real hero in a lot of ways.

But you know this, uh, this kind of a you know, this this kind of self important, pompous Latin guy, and uh, this kind of you know, supremacist to time type like people like that are gonna mix like oil and water, you know. And you can just see just kind of by like like the words jump off the page, and when when you read of this meeting, how you know,

just like what a disaster it must must must have been. Additionally, Srono wanted to he wanted he want to guarantees of military and economic support, you know, uh immediately to like you know, this wasn't he said he wanted to go back to Madrid, you know, with with the concrete offer of what you know, Hitler was willing to provide, you know, kind of like down to the letter, you know, and uh, this is not that's not the way that that's not that's not the way diplomacy has done either you know

it's and uh this would be the cost again of uh of you know, joining the war and specifically you know, immediately planning for an operation. This trilter apparently Ymntroft hit the roof and he said that he'd approached the Fear and talk about maybe letting uh Spain maintained territorial rights to uh one of the Canary Islands, but that's it, you know. He said that Spain's never going to have Morocco that you know, France is an essential ally and

you're not. You know, this is paraphrase, you know, and uh, finally, Riven trop said that you know the aid you're gonna get is you know, you're you're gonna become a dedicated you know, destination from German manufacturers. You know, we're gonna put your people to work, you know, as we see fit, you know, to sustain in the war economy. But you know,

basically you're a coolie, you know, go back. He basically told him, like, go get his fucking shinebos and you know the uh he literally insulted him by you know, not just portraying Spain as you know, like a future satellite state, but as like a second rate one at that as uh this came is apparently a great shock

to soon error because it uh. I mean again, like these guys weren't rob and Troup had done business in America and like actually up until you know, the the evil World War one and uh and then subsequent he'd spent a lot of time in Canada, So I mean he was worldly, but uh like not neither of these men should have been negotiating anything of uh of of of of the nature that they were charged with, you know, like I Sigafreed Cash, I Uh, SIGRed Cash wasn't a diplomat,

but he he was slated to be the gall lighter of the Moscow UH Commissariat, you know, had it come to fruition, and he uh he was. He was the military liaison uh to uh the independent State of Croatia. I mean, I just think he's an interesting guy. But I in in counterfactual terms, I was thinking about that, like Sigarey Cash, like should have been the man negotiating with Spain and uh it should have been a man from the traditional uh, from the traditional aristocracy of the

church or the church like negotiating with with Cash. You know. Again it's a. It's a it's it's a splendid example of two men who basically agree on everything in terms of like ideology and politics, who you know, could not agree on like what day it was? It uh, And it becomes Franco's private correspondence to soon error, you know, and his telegrams to him, but specifically like his private letters. So I mean, you know that these were intendingly for

Sator's eyes. He was uh, he was a Frank was a fusively praising Hitler as a wise man, you know and like a great man. And you know he was dismissing Ribbon trow up as you know Ri Ribond Trump is you know, he's a fool. He he's uh, he heels to appreciate you know, what we can offer the axis and you know these kinds of things, you know.

So again it's and if it's some like go to show you how essential to I mean, if you're if you're ahead of state, particularly if you're a world ord as Hitler was by this point, you've got to be insulated. I mean not just for you know, reasons of literal physical security, but you know, because every anybody and everybody is going to be you know, trying to sway your opinion and make demands on you and things. I mean, you just you know, you basically have to communicate through liaison.

But it goes to show you, like how how important it is that the man in that role or in those roles you know, in in discreete capacities, you know, really really have to you know, be be able to

check their ego at the door. You know, if there's there's no reason why like this, this could not have developed into a real you know, a real strategic uh you know, alliance, you know, in operational terms, I mean uh he uh, even after when a protege as soon are a guy named Pedro Gamero del Castill in nineteen forty one January nineteen forty one, he reached out to the press secretary of the German embassy in Spain, Hans Lasar, and he he begged him basically, he's like, look, you know,

tell Berlin that a Serrano soonnor government in other words, like Franco could be sidelined or killed. You know, a Serrano sonir government, you know, it was soon are at the helm and live with the Cardillo would commit absolutely the access powers, you know, and This was incredibly risky, you know that he was that he was talking about these things in a basically above board capacity with a German diplomatic representative. But I mean it goes to show

you Spain was a house divided. And it goes to show you too how you know that the true Falange like pro access element in Spain, like we're holding out hope still that you know, Spain would join the access as a you know, as a as a full partner. It Uh, it's unclear whether Wizarre ever reached Hitler or reached like the right Chancery and if he did like what he said when it was said to Hitler when it was like not the not by not by Castillo bout,

Hitler said, Uh. To Walter Hewle later on was uh, he said that you know, soon air and not you know, trying harder and doing whatever he could dissuay the Cordillo was quote the great bigger of the new Spain and uh, you know Hitler, the man always who always took the long view. Whatever else he canna say about him, you know, he realized more than anybody that you know, Spain's fortunes were inextricably tethered to Germany's and if the axis went down,

that that was the end of Spain. You know, it didn't matter that Franco was able to create a little like you know, Garrison Uh uh, you know Disneyland, like fascist Disneyland for thirty years subsequent that, you know, his lasting legacy, that that of Frankoin, I mean is amounts to exactly zero. Soon There uh and uh Castile proposed they were the ones who proposed the Blue Division, you know, after the honest of hostilities with the Soviet Union on

June twenty second, ninety forty one. And uh, you know it's clear that uh, it's it's clear. Soon There realized the opportunity that he'd missed or or or was cossing his own failure. Two days after Barbarossa in June twenty there, twenty four. I've seen it cited, as I've seen both

citations of the date. He Uh, he delivered a famous uh kind of stump speech, uh, from the balcony of what had been for largest party headquarters, called Russia is capabal forgive me portuing Spanish, I don't speak Spanish at all, but translates as Russia is guilty and it's essentially you know, uh, bellicos epologia for you know, why why why Spain needs to join you know, the war effort, where the flange need to join the war effort, you know, like all

all true patriots need to slay that you deal Bolshevic beast, you know. So he was, uh, he was. He was like like many people, you know, like many great men. You know, he was complicated. And again that's part of the tragedy is that Serrano was basically a heroic type and a great patriot, and you know, kind of circumstances intervened to uh prevent him from realizing you know, what he wanted to do. H accomplished for the sake of Spain and you know, the national Socialist cause and everything else.

But back to forgive that, tangent I had to kind of flesh out who soon there was, to make clear like what the stakes were of the of the summit between Hitler and Franco, but also you know, to kind of understand, you know, how the personage is directly engaged, you know, determine the outcome of this negotiation. The basic object was to resolve you know, outstanding disagreements uh over the over over conditions for Spain to join the Access Powers in their war against Hi.

been soundly defeated. The British were defeated at you know two. I mean, but you know, on to the war at all costs crusade. You know, they're refusing to negotiate, and uh, Hitler doesn't want to go through a sea lion. I think Sea Lion was always just fertig ruse. But that's another question. But the nail in the coffin of the British Empire, you know, would be the seeear of Gibraltar. You know, the Royal Navy would then be shut out

of the Mediterranean. They'd lose Africa, you know, they'd they'd be they they'd be they'd be a garrison, uh state on their home islands, you know, and the U boat fleet could do the rest. Really Okay, the meeting endured for seven hours. Uh. The Spanish wouldn't waiver, and there rather, Franco wouldn't waiver and uh demands that Hitler described as extortionate. His demands were. Franco's demands were the handing over of

Gibraltar to Spain once the British were defeated. Uh this, you know, the seating of French Morocco and part of French Algeria to Spain. The attachment of French Cameroon to the Spanish colony of Guinea. So basically, you know, French Africa becomes Spanish Afriga Okay, and finally German supplies of food, petrol, arms and ammunition uh as needed, you know, to relieve the critical economic and military situation to your point, faced by Spain after the Civil War. And you know, and

subsequently as needed, you know, for long term development. Now, Hitler couldn't disturb relations with with with France, Okay. I mean, as we just talked about, that was the key that was really the key to you know, victory in the West. Okay, the key that the key to n SIG was the

defeat of the Soviet Union. But you know, the Barbarossa hasn't happened yet, and ideally, you know, if the war in the West can be won, uh first, I mean that's obviously ideal, even if this was always a secondary theater and you know, a war that the Germans did not want to fight. These are the UK and you know,

the Mediterranean and Northern Africa. But the strategic landscape is what it is, Okay, something that's important that doesn't nullify uh, you know RHS Stofle's claim, and I mean Hitler's notion, I mean the notion of Hitler himself that you know, the like final like final victory is conquering is is when Moscow falls. Okay, But I just wanted to reiterate

that for Claire. But uh, the only way that this uh, the only way that this uh that this alliance, uh that this Mediterranean alliance can work, is uh like like Frances the Lynchkin. Okay, for reasons where we discussed Franco is making that impossible for you know, for for France to come to terms based on what he is demanding. And Hillar was beside himself. But also he just didn't he he didn't understand the abject uh you know, kind of stubbornness. I mean he he view it's never deliver,

really sabotage the proceedings, and I believe that's true. Uh said in Mussolini that he would rather have three or four teeth extracted than go through that again, that being negotiation or attempted negotiation with Franco soon Air, who was again he was uh not habituated to being a diplomat and uh he was apparently something of a boisterous, you know, an impassionate person and a military man as as well

as uh, you know, a revolutionary type. He uh he continually interrupted and in a way that apparently Hitler viewed as totally tactless and stiff like that meane Hitler very angry as a kind of as a kind of would any sort of like old world Habsburg German. But Hitler

especially it was. You know, it's basically like, look, if you're a definitely representative, even if you're a foreign minister, you know when heads a state or talking, you don't see anything, you know, I mean so it's just every every conceivable sort of aspect of this of this affair just came uh you know, a yasco you know, a a literal comedy of errors. But uh, Hitler kept at it even uh even and even even through you know, when dinner was served and even afterwards, and uh it

uh you know it it came to nothing. And that was. That was the last summit. There was the last summer between Franco and UH and the fere and really like any any official representatives of of of their respective office, you know, it's the the Blue Division deployed, you know, to the Eastern Front. You know, they fought valiantly, particularly at Leningrad. But I mean that, uh, that was that. You know, there was no Franco is no nearer uh you know, joining the axis than he had been at

you know prior to the meeting soon Air. You know, if anything, he probably sabotaged the proceedings in some small way or possibly even a major way by his you know, kind of uncouth conduct, however well intentioned it might have been, you know, and it was Uh. Hitler went on uh

to meet Patent on the twenty fourth October. He readed pretend as the victory of Verdune, you know, saluted him, you know again, like treating him like, you know, with all not just with all the honors do a field marshal a little bit, you know, as also as the president of France, you know it uh, you know, but he had nothing he had you know, he had nothing to offer, you know. In the French, the patience perspective was, you know, we're already at war with the UK, Like

what more do you want from us? You know, And I mean, for the record, you know that continued throughout the war. You know, I don't need to remind people, you know who another history that the final defenders of of uh, the CHS Thug and the fear of Bunker were uh, you know, the French off and SS you know,

Charlot Meine. You know, but it was it was a you know, he just reiterated, you know containing you know, it's the France can only afford the role of non belligerent and official capacities, you know, over the time being, you know, otherwise otherwise you know, and defend as you know what we can in Africa, you know, from the common enemy. But you know, beyond that, there's there's there's nothing to be done unless you know, Spain's willing to come to terms.

A month subsequent, November twenty eighth, nineteen forty, Ribbon Troup's ambassador in Berlin, the foreign the German ambassador to to Madrid, to Spain in Madrid Eperlin, he relayed that Frank was now willing to proceed with East of Pursy preparations for Spain's proposed entry into the war if you know Hitler was willing to you know, if Hitler was willing to now come to terms, you know, in some way that

you know, both men could live with. Hitler took this to mean that this meant that Franco was willing to enter the war immediately, you know, pending uh, the satisfaction and conditions precedent. On December fourth, he sent Canarist to Franco with a personal letter proposing that German troops formally enter Spain and you know, prepare uh to assault Gibraltar, which six was six hundred miles from the frontier. Okay,

so we're talking. You're talking about a real deployment across across you know, the Spanish heartland, which is no small thing. But again it I mean, considering, considering, you know, the course of negotiations, this would not this was not an outlandish request. And let's forget that. You know, German forces spent three years fighting, you know, on Spanish soil to you know, guarantee the existence of Franco and his people, you know, and subsequently the government that they now you know,

they now they now enjoyed in Madrid. So this, uh, this, this was perfectly well placed in customary you know terms as well as you know, the commonly accepted sort of rights and privileges of of allies. You know. Franco afforded Canarius along audience on December seventh, nineteen forty as an auspicious day. Auspicious day, you know, one year prior to Harbor Pearl Harbor exactly. Franco said to Canaris that for economic reasons relating to you know, the terrible cost of

the Civil War. Spain could not be ready to assault the UK by January tenth. Spain could only and Spain could only join the war. Furthermore, if Britain was on the on the brink of collapse, you know, any kind of attrition contest, you know, Spain just could not commit to that, which again was just you know, uh, it was it was. It was, it was, it was, It

was just. It was just. Frank was favorite method once again of finding a way to to you know, to not to not commit to the alliance while uh wrong footing his enemy and in some in some way how

we're transparent, that might have been it. Uh. Hitler's rebuttal response uh to the Canaris meeting was, uh, you know, just again you know too, to reiterate, uh, you know, the that Gibraltar was essential that you know, unless uh, unless the United Tignam was deprived of its access to the Mediterranean, you know it, Uh, it would soon prevail in North Africa. Hitler had no illusions about that, and

ultimately that would be the end of Spain. And you know, he reminded him too that without the help of you know, himself and Mussolini either would be no nationalist Spain today, nor they be any Cardillo, you know, and he said that Franco's vacillating, added to dude, was uh not befitting a general officer, which seemed to stink deep because uh Franco proceeded to angrily denounce not Hitler himself, but he

gained close. He told Canarious that he never vacillated. Uh you know that he he he was always committed to the cause. But that you know, Spain has been bled white, you know, because the fight against Bolshevism, you know, occurred, you know, on their territory first and foremost. And you know, how dare you're going to question the sacrifice of Spanish manhood and all. But the theory was right and Franco

was wrong. And I mean it's that simple. I and again too, I mean aside from that, I mean, all all this which is obvious kind of who's cobol and who you know was responsible for the inability of you know, any any kind of real concourd to emerge between uh, you know, Germany, Italy, uh, Spain and France. It's clear that, I mean, Franco was a unless one puts, you know, self preservation above all other goods. It's it's obvious that Franco was really kind of a pox on on the

house proverbial house of of of all patriotic forces. Then UH so mobilized and engaged against uh, you know, the Bolsheviks and UH and their allies in Britain. This the situation was a complicated by Mussoli jumping the gun and informing Hitler that he intended to assault Greece, which in turn obviously would have given the UK a pretext to occupy Crete and then you know, to bring UH their

strategic bombers within striking distance of the Mediterranean theater. I mean, there was there was other things too that were rendering this the timetable, uh you know, and that we're putting pressure on you know, that the strategic timetable for any sort of remedial action to be taken with respect to Gibraltar or anywhere else the Mediterranean.

know in uh in the North African theater. I mean initially it was initially the avercorre deployed, you know, to relieve you know, the Italians who were you know, failing in every conceivable capacity and operational terms, you know, and

then later when uh, you know wrong. I think it's somewhat over overly praised because he's a romantic figure and plus, you know, people look at him as a good guy because he he he was wrongfully implicated in the July twenty plot, but he was nonetheless implicated and you know

the sad stoppo, you know, forcing to commit suicide. But he it was uh, you know, it was it was Rommel's you know, uh, you know, Prussian commitment to missionary and attactics like Ritt Large, which kind of you know, which kind of made North Africa into like a into like a you know, a real battle theater because of the fact is that he kept succeeding. But yeah, the

the Uh. That that was basically the Italian armies. That that's what that that, that's what their responsibility was, you know, vis a vis the UH, the Access Alliance and that UH. And yeah, the Italian army in North Africa was problematic. I think the Italians fought pretty heroically on the Eastern Front, but the UH and in the Balkans there their mountain troops. We were real game and real tough. But the the

Italian forces in Africa were not. They were not good, and they were a liability in a lot of ways, with some exceptions. I don't I don't want like Italian people to get mad or something. You think I'm saying something bad about them, I'm not. But the Italian army had had.

and he and Hitler became quite close. And Hewill was an interesting guy, kind of like an unassuming guy, like the kind of guy who is a great diplomat. Like if if Hewell could have been negotiating with soon ere, there would have been a very different outcome, I believe. But my point is that uh, hewles Uh, he's a credit.

He is a credible source on this, and he he really had no observing these things in his like private diary where he was talking to himself, you know, like here there really would be no reason why to finesse these things. And frankly too, I mean again, I don't think, I don't think. I don't think anybody really looks good or reasonable in this MILEU except the Hitler himself, you know,

Like I'm sure that take makes people mad too. But speaking within you know the bound irrationality of uh of you know, the strategic planning, you know, based on the conditions confronted you know, by all combatant states on the acts of side as of October nineteen forty. And you know this that this should not had developed the way it did. But it goes to show you the human factor, you know, and people and there you know, idiosyncrasies and

personality and and everything else. I mean it is, UH is like like like sabotages the best laid planned in nations more than any any army could, you know, much of the time. And like that's not just some dumb cliche,

but that's uh, that's the story of UH. This is the story of you know, the Cordillo and the Furor, and you know the conspicuous absence of Spain and you know on the on the battlefields of World War two save for the Blue Division later the Blue Legion when they were reconstituted, who were very who fought heroically again, But you know, that's that's why. And that's all I got.

Thomas seven seven seven dot com. It's kind of like a one stop not kind I mean, it's a one stop place for all my content, okay, And I still gotta like tweak some stuff that, like my Twitter feed like shows up there in the timely manner, but pretty much all like that video stuff I do like here with Pete and other things, you know, shows up here, like my podcast, you can like access it there, you know, just like one off streams I appear on and stuff

like that, you can find it there. And I'm gonna sucks it up and like fix some of the glitches. And but I mean you can go here now and it's like up and running, okay. But the stuff that doesn't work particularly well yet, that's getting worked out. Uh. You can still find me on Twitter if you request

to follow me, I will let you follow me. I I just rubber stamp, but as it were, but I've got to have my tweets protected because otherwise, like a bunch of freaks like Zert rush me and get me banned, which just happened like twelve times I'm not just talking you shit. You can find me at substack if you can find my podcast, it's a real Thomas seven seven seven that subseck dot com. And that's pretty much where up on. Like a lot of things are happening now.

I know I've been saying that for a minute, but I am a one man operation. Like with my dear friend and editor Rake, we're a two man operation. But I'm I'm working on the second season of Mind Phaser, at which time the first season episodes will all become free. But there's a help alot going into that. There's a hell blot going into like the video we're shooting and I've got a helpot of footage, but I gotta make

it into something and it's damn time consuming. Just please continue to bear with me, like I'm getting shipped together. But it's and it will be dope, but it's just taking time. That's all I got.

the social capital I'm talking about all the time. It is like building you know, not just pragmatic networks for you know, like political action things, but in day to day life, like you know, when crises emerged, you know, as they always do it on personal terms because someone's

being terrorized by the regime. You know, there there's there's a network of people that organically like springs into action, you know, and that so that that's been that's kind of the silver lining, man like if there if there was one, because that you know that the structure very much kind of like came into focus, you know, owing to owing to o into something that I mean, frankly, in the broad scheme like was not a big deal.

But it's when it's going on, it's fucked up and you like disappear off the earth if you get arrested because they take away all your means of communication. So I just I didn't I'm not trying to eat up the clock. I just I just wanted this is a good opportunity to kind of like address our friends direct.

But today, I this is this is the last episode where I'll approach it and what appears perhaps to be kind of a scattershot topical orientation, and we'll get into like the nuts and boats, the battlefield situation and how

it resolved in the next episode. But to understand the Spanish War, and frankly too, understand the path that Franco struck out as regards to the fear and the third rite, as well as you know Spain and it's gewo strategic situation generally, you've really you've got to understand how unusual the state and as society Spain is. You know, it's a complete outlier. And what I mean by that is

this even you know, I disagree. I take a strong exception to people who they're trying to identify, you know, and people with people, and then a lot of a lot of people who abide kind of Meersheimer's perspective do this. And I only reference that because generally I agree with those people on certain matters, and this is one of

those cases where I don't. But you know, they posit that there's this kind of school, there's this discreete you know, sort of school of political thought, particularly strategic matters, you know, of realism, and that you know, there's some there's some sort of straight line, basically linear trajectory between these cities, you know, all the way through the people at Kings of Burnham and this nonsense. However, the first really modern

political theorist was was Machiavelli. Okay, and there's a reason why Machiavelli he identified he had identified and Isabella as the first true like you know, are architects of the modern state, you know. And then then and this proceeded, this proceeded not just with failure, but the thirty years

were itself by one hundred years. You know. So there's there's this lyrid economy of Spain, because Spain, you know, in living memory, it's always views either the sick man of Europe or this kind of you know, backward state comparatively, or the state that's you know, compromised in terms of its social sociological architecture, you know, by by reactionary tendencies and you know, things that are more characteristic of the developing world, you know, than they are uh that, than

they are Europe, you know, America and North Asia. But Spain was a century ahead of the curve and its political development, you know, even amidst uh these arguably, you know, conditions have impoverished you know, material and social capital. And that's a curious question because to a lesser degree and in different capacities. You know, Russia was like that too. You know, there was this tremendously evolved intellectual uh climate

in Russia. I mean, and it had horrible outcomes. Okay, I mean that's that's why communism and found such fertile ground. But you know, again, right, Russia was decades ahead in terms of in terms of in terms of the in terms of the intellectual paradigms. It was playing with a state craft. But in terms of material capital and the conditions that allow, you know, for material capital to truly flourish and you know, and provide technological development, those things,

those things were absent. And that also you know, Spain, unlike most empires space to say, Spain, the Spanish Empire didn't become rich. It probably in it's in the terms we understand health and money. This Spain, the Spanish Remora zine that was was was the well these empire that ever existed. Okay, you know, it spanned his planet. It was able to challenge the Royal Navy, you know it it was just it was just like it was. It was a juggernaut basically. You know, it was just incredibly powerful.

But it's social art sector didn't really become more complex with that. You know, it's it's wild we overstated or people to talk about this, you know, the middle class like it's this ambassador class, and like it can finesse these intrinsic you know, alleged hostilities you know, between a master and serf, from between like aristocrat and peasant, or between uh you know, proletarian and and and and a high bourgeoisie and and that's nonsense. But there is like

something of a causal nexus there. I think it's more just that, you know, as social theological architecture becomes more diversified, owing to the increased complexity of economic activity and behavior at scale, that there just becomes more and more kinds of threads of complex integration and interdependence between institutions and people's and that appears from without you know, if you want to like turn into an event diagram as this kind of middle class you know, being embassed, you know,

playing in an ambassador role, but regardless of you know, the chicken or the egg and how that resolves in one's own mind or in real terms. That that didn't happen in Spain, Okay, you have this historically divided society and they, you know, finally when the nineteenth century arrived. You know, the Spanish didn't Spain had a totally earerent experience in the nineteenth century than everybody else did, you know, like the long Piece, they didn't experience that. Instead of

the experienced incredibly you know, chaotic circumstances. They were punctuated by crisis after crisis after crisis after crisis, you know, you know, way eighteen fourteen, you know, they were occupied by Napoleon. You know, they didn't just they weren't just you know, they weren't just part of you know, the alliance that at the Battle of Nations or something. You know, they they were they were under occupation for for for close to a decade, you know, and from there it.

You know, like we talked about in a week or two ago, really the only kind of punctuated, uh, military crises in the nineteenth century in Europe were localized. You know. There was like the Franco Prussian War, it was the Crimean War, but neither one of those, you know, really were as impactful like outside of a theater level. And there's the eighteen forty eight revolutions, but that that that that was nothing like nineteen seventeen or like or like

seventeen eighty nine. You know. But in the case of Spain, they they're they they came to civil war. Conditions were emerging in eighteen twenty two, eighteen twenty three, and French military intervention ended that eighteen twenty seven, there was the Catalan insurrection. You know, in these and these and these uh these uh these secession oriented you know, the political movements on sundry in Spain like always had always had

traction in peculiar ways. Eighteen thirty three, eighteen forty it was the first Carlist War, which was incredibly bloody, you know, eighteen fifty nine, you know, the Moroccan orb independence pops off eighteen seventy to eighteen seventy six, there's the Second

Carlist War. During this whole time, Spain was fighting in in in the Americas, you know, because of these Hispanic American colonial revolts, you know, eighteen sixty eighteen eighteen sixty eight to eighteen seventy eight, there's the Ten Years War in Cuba and the subsequently Spain literally fought America, you know, I mean this, this is the uh, the degree, the degree with in Spain and the Two Cuban and the Two Cuban Wars lost over one hundred thousand kia. You know.

No European power absorbed that much military attrition. There were loss as much territory and so rapid its time frame as Spain did in the nineteenth century. You know. Uh, I'd say what happened in Spain at reduced scale and adjusting for strategic conditions of the of the of the power political landscape, what happened in Spain was as catastrophic as what happened to the Soviet Union? Are you believing

more so? That Spain was quite literally violently ripped apart, you know, and it was this is how the this is what gave birth to the Spanish Revolutionary Left. Okay, the Spanish Revolutionary Left was always more savage, more sanguinary, more aggressive, more unwilling to compromise than than anybody except probably the Bolsheviks who succeeded them, and uh you know in the Jacobans, who inspired every every radical tendency subsequent. But in eighteen twenty one is kind of viewed as

the year that the Spanish revolutionary Left came about. What they were, the big the kind of seminal moment in uh in a subsequent to you know, ferinand and Isabella, you know, creating the Spanish national state was the Constitution of eighteen twelve. And I'm sure gonna butcher this pronunciation, but these liberal reformers, like some of them are quite radical, you know, who are most responsible for structuring and authoring of that constitution or they were called Doquianistas or Dosinistas.

I don't know if it's a hard or soft seat, but they were pretty pretty rapidly moderated after they got their weight, and they tried to implement a parliamentarian structure, you know, of true sort of power sharing arrangements at interval that by which you know, due process would be abided regardless of the outcome of parliamentary elections. Okay, this is the last time any faction in the left ever

abided that. And by eighteen twenty one, the disinfection from within, you know, essentially the young Turks who came known as the Exaltados. Their whole notion was, look, you know that the prize in political contest, you know, within the state

are the state itself. Okay, if you know, if if we're gonna you know, if every if every three or six or eight or ten years, you know, we're gonna we're gonna briefly capture, you know, we're gonna really capture you know, legislative majorities and things, you know, and then just rush to you know, implement as much relief to you know, to uh, to our class comrades as as as as possible. But then immediately, you know, hand the range of state over to our enemies and watch that

be undone. You know, we're that that's that's uh, that's beyond a fool's Errand you know, it's it's some it's a it's gonna and and it's it's beyond and even pointless some you know, sort of acceptance of the status quo because that like obviously over time that simply grinds down, you know, the revolutionary uh impetus like in in the minds of of anyone who participates in the system, because you know, a definition the system exists and neutralized, you know,

not just like like like reformist tendencies, let let alone revolutionary ones. Okay, So exultatos, we're now willing to surrender the ground, you know, for the sake of due process or or or constidential consent, power sharing or anything else. Okay. And there's a very Schmidtian concept of state, you know, and not and and that I mean and that that that makes sense, okay for for all kinds of reasons.

But the uh, the main, the main characteristic of the Iseltatos and what remained as kind of the core essence of the French or at the front the Spanish radical left subsequent was a total rejection and moderation and an employment of violence not just to secure, uh, not just to secure absolute you know, majoritarian consensus, but also to enforce government policy once they accomplished or captured that consensus, you know, and and and a view that it was

perfectly legitimate to enforce, not just enforce compliance you know, through use of of of a violent terror apparatus, but also to crush all all resistance and the president they drew upon. You know, when when when these kinds of more liberal minded moderates would say, look, you know, we all want the same things. You know where you're you're setting us back with these kinds of sanguinary longings. The rebuttal was, look, you know that our president for this

is seventeen eighty nine. You know, and if you think the Jacobins were, you know, we're willing to come to the table with royalists and and and engage in horse trading. You know, you're you're you're out of your mind or you're a liar, you know, and within the bound rationality they're objectives. They did have a point, you can't you can't transpose, you can't transpose parliamentarism to uh a body

politic where there's no moral consensus. And uh, you can't the entire theory of of progressive as government with a capital P even that itself uh you know as uh it's epistemic priors are basically that you know, in conditions where that consensus didn't exist before it has been achieved. You know, as a conditioned precedent of of uh you know, of of of of of our program. Okay, so all these things, it should become clear that kind of like

a perfect storm. I mean, I it sound corny, but a perfect constellation maybe more properly of factors, uh, you know many uh many owing to an escapable precedent that set Spain on a uniquely kind of tragic course.

buying your way to to you know, policy realization. No, no, no matter how much you're enthralled the violence and coercion as sort of the currency of of uh, of authority, at some point that that that sort of runs its course, you know, and and it develops, it develops a crisis of legitimacy, you know, and then people just get sick

of it. And this is exactly what happened, and uh the the again once again to the Exultatles were overthrown by by the French army on uh W, which which became you know, it's it's interesting because a peculiar kind of a peculiar kind of uh interdependence developed, like like these multiple French military interventions. You know, this wasn't this wasn't like the vermach like assaulting the Soviet Union or like the Soviet Union like you know, assaulting Poland or something.

I mean, yeah, there's always like the deserts, categorical hostility like the jury in defecto when you're talking about you know, armed men of you know, understatus of alienage, you know, crossing a sovereign frontier. But after uh, after Waterloo, it there they just became you know, like the one of

the checks on h on anarchy. As Spain you know, kind of went through this painful nineteenth century was uh, you know, a tolerance if not you know, out and out acceptance of uh a French interventionism, uh you know,

beyond their their common border. When you know, things appear to be careering towards open civil war, and I mean that that's that's a tangent, but it is it is interesting and it goes to show you that, uh, some of the Westphalian paradigm, uh in condition to peace between states is a myth like this idea that you know, borders are rigid to the point that you know, we can't even talk about you know, complex interdependence as having any you know sort of sort of high high concern

and high politics. But to put this in perspective, like a dear friend of ours who came to visit me the other week, uh he uh, he was kind of have to mail me Stanley G. Paynes, p A Y N E. Like I guess like Max Pain for the for the for the gamer bros on the But this is a this is a very like storied book that and and our friend like mailed it to me, which

is great. So I read it after I got back from jail, and it's shocked full of facts and figures and it basically deals with uh like the book itself, it basically deals with, you know what, like the unraveling of the Spanish Republic, you know, especially the especially the critical months through nineteen thirty five and in nineteen thirty six before I'm not at the point of the formal onset of hostilities.

really in your personal cannon. And like not only any conceptual prejudice or something or judgment on quality, you know, punitive or or praising. But for whatever reason, uh, Pain never sort of entered into my personal canon. So uh again, uh, dude knows who he is who sent us this book?

And that's awesome, and it's been a huge help for one of the reasons why it's shocked full of of data that you know, is not i mean not data for data's sake, but you know, data of a material of entering nature that helps put things into you know, kind of high relief as regardless perspective and kind of the sequences after from from the Napoleon occupation and or

Waterloo onward. They got the phases in in in modern Spanish politics were you know, from eighteen to white to eighteen fourteen, there was a there there there there was a leftist regime in power, you know, And it's that that that'd be worthy of an entire episode or a couple of episodes, like what the relationship was of Napoleonism to or Bonapartism to Jacobinism, and that's that, that's that's

that is a Gailian processes written all over it. But make no mistake, uh, this this was this this this wasn't Neo Jacobin regime at the reins during the occupation again from eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty five and thirty eight, eighteen fifty and fifty six, sixty eighteen seventy three, nineteen seventeen, ninety twenty three, and then of

course in nineteen thirty one, ninety thirty nine. You know, these were the the these are the these are the phases of the or the or the electoral cycles or constellation of cycles wherein the radical left essentially controlled the entire national government. Okay, and again you know, as soon as one as soon as as soon as one faction

would would lose to the other. You know, they have every every everything there everything they're outgoing enemy had done what was sabotage, you know, I mean, so it was this it was just kind of like stalemate by design and government, you know, and I mean that that's the case of the center not being able to hold Also, even uh if conditions aren't such that, you know, civil war is uh inevitable. You're you're dealing event You're you're dealing with the state that eventually is going to become

a failed state. Okay, the uh, the right wing control of the regime, you know, whether it was you know, whether whether it was you know, gonna get get conventional Spanish nationalists, you know, like Carloss you know, uh, like there's like various right wingers. You know, they're they're their

tenure or there. The other phases of of of government, you know, dominance was uh, you know post Water eighteen fourteen, eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty three, eighteen thirty nine, eighteen fifty four, which is interesting because again staining an outlier.

You know, they avoided the eighteen forty eight revolutions because you know, the right had the country locked down eighteen fifties, eighteen fifty six to eighteen sixty eight, eighteen seventy four, ninety seventeen, nineteen twenty three to ninety thirty one, and of course nineteen thirty nine to nineteen seventy five. I take some exception to that. I don't think we can talk about the Franco regime after about nineteen fifty four as being rightest. I just don't. Okay. Again, it was

in another example of Spain being a remarkable outlier. But I accept what Pain is getting at. And again that same paradigm was re emergent. Uh, it wasn't you know, there was it wasn't bloody and uh and and who almost apocalyptic like as is the case with the sales are regime, you know which uh and Seals are the fascinating guy, and you know, and the and the and the the Portuguese were we're fighting alongside the Rhodesians against

the communists, you know, for for decades in Africa. You know Ian Smith, who who is It's not like his pros is particularly elegant or like edifying. And I'm not saying that Ahead of State should bother with that. But if people are looking for a book that provides that sort of inspiration and kind of pleasurable reading, that's not the book for you. But there's key insights into the mind of Ian Smith. And Smith talks about sales Ar

is a truly great man. You know. He said, if a Slider could have hung on, you know, for two or three more years, we probably could have you know, we probably could have smashed you know, like Zany upf and you know, and and you know and and and the proxies of the the wars off hects. But it's it's uh, but again that you know, they're they're like like Franco wasn't Salizar and Uh there was no Carnation Revolution or whatever the uh the Progressive Uprising against Salazar

was branded. Memory fails me at the minute. I'm still kind of shaken off the weekend. But I don't mean I go was out like chasing skirt and like guzzling Scotch or something. I mean like I got my ass kicked this weekend and it hurt my brain. But the uh another thing to consider too, you know, the uh,

the strong suit. I think inarguably in every other state where you know radicals and or Bolsheviks and or you know, ideological offshoots, you know, whether they were you know, left wing syndical lists, you know, uh, anarcho syndical lists, like anarchists. I mean, even among the anarchists, there was a kind of rigid cadre structure whereby the inner discipline of the party and it's cadres was what carried the day and allowed them to allow you know, and carry them to victory.

In Spain, uh, the Spanish left, it was even more naked, least sectarian personal like characterized by the faux messianic delusions of of individual like players within it. You know, it was it was pointlessly like inwardly directed, secretive like these guys were constantly at war with each other. You know, far far far more than in far more fractious than the right wing was, you know. And that's the only

state like that. And that's not me saying like I mean, the right wing is a lot more organic, okay, and uh and that you know, and and and it's it doesn't emerge. It didn't. It doesn't emerge from some you know, from from a literal central committee. Okay. It's that there's there's there's reasons of a structural and sociological and historical nature. Like conventionally, you know, the modern uh radical left has

more internal discipline than the right. Okay. But that's why it's so striking that in Spain like this was it was literally the opposite, you know. And it also explains why there this thing started when the Hrmacht intervened, you know, invon Toma's u uh you know, counter legion and von Tona's tanks and you know these uh and and he's been and he stud like battlefield commanders, and Franco had had a great eye for for like company level officers, I don't know their equivalent to be in the Spanish

duvery of the day, but like like junior officers. So you need you know, to be like platoon leaders and company commanders like Franco and Franco's staff, like they knew

how to culture that kind of talent. Okay, So by the time these pressures came to bear, like politically, like the French left is like falling apart, you know, and not even uh, not even you know, not even the n k v D on the ground, not even dudes like Eric Milk, like you know, just like whacking people who just like you know, just cause like he was probably an asshole anyway, and you know he his is you know, he wasn't doing what he had to do too,

you know, sustain like internal discipline you know, within his own chain of command and stuff like even with all that like conventionally like almost comically it's not common when they're talking about like extreme brutality, but that kind of like you know, even even a kind of like ridiculous level of like stalinists like you know, like compliance through like massive brutal violence, like this is still couldn't even like phase like this function of the process that they

just enumerated. And towards the end two you know, talking about Spain being ironically you know, decades and in the case of the Spanish mountern state emergence, you know, a century you know, ahead of the rest of the continent.

The first uh, the first the first attempt to truly organize like a trade like a trade union that you know, with an eye for the ability to ultimately you know, extoric concessions to general strike h that occurred as really is the eighteen thirties, okay, like decades before the American War between the States. You know, there's guys in Spain, you know, who were talking like a narcocynic list and

like talking talking like Marcus Atlantis. You know, that's pretty crazy and pretty remarkable, all right, especially again we consider that, you know, it's I'm not like trading Spain like Spain. Spain is fucking incredible. But you know, we're not talking about like terrorists, and we're not talking about like Berlin, and we're not talking about like London. You know, we're

talking about Spain. In some cases, you know, like very provincial places in Spain that you know, not only weren't known for their their kind of cosmopol and embrace of exotic ideologies, you know, and things that just kind of like tickle the fantasy of aristocrats just you know, thought

experiments that can be played out with real people. You know. Uh, these guys were thinking and absolutely in like twentieth century terms, but they were doing so a century early, you know, and they were wing still I missed uh uh you know a state that was that was still like you know, almost entirely like a greery and in terms of its local uh, his local economic output that, as Cyrus says

in The Warriors, is a miracle. But Giuseppe Finelle he was an early uh figure of of of advance of importance within uh the post Jacobin but pre Leninist left and he arrived in Spain and in eighteen sixty eight he'd been a great admirer of Bakunin. You know who is Marx uh great opponent in the First International Josette Finelle he were here out to Madrid without speaking any Spanish.

He basically had no money. But he said, look, and and people like he was crazy, but he said, look, he's like the idea as he called it, you know, because guy, you know, uh, paris of thought. You know, we'd call it the faith even though that's what it is. It's an airs faith, he said, the idea, uh he said, he said, look, this is the most fertile, like, this is almost fertile ground. You know, we can find for

you know, for for Marxism on the content. Okay. Uh there's literally no more like fertile proverbial fertile soil than the Spanish body politic to embrace Marxism. Okay, and uh he was right, Okay, rapidly Uh uh this got a this this abundance of sex just popped up, you know, like anarchists, libertarian, you know, anarcho cynic list, you know,

independent socialists, like every everything you can possibly think of. Okay, and again that ultimately served like the like the the inherent fractiousness and and sort of anarchic nature of that political culture of uh the post Jacob and left in Spain. I mean that cost him the war. And it's not I I don't accept the kind of Thomas Pain idea that like the more the more you hold an endless conversation, you know, the more like marvelous things just kind of

like emerge out of motherfucker's mouths. But uh, but my point is that there was a there was a remarkably developed intellectual culture on the ground as regards politics and uh, you know, political theory unless you're talking to the like, unless you're really talking about like Straussian types are just like you know, positing like you know, like values, claims and and and trying to mind cloud from the fact that,

you know, they call themselves philosophers or something like. If you're talking about if you're talking about polable theory, you're talking about you know, you're you're talking about it imagining the architecture of the state as an instrumentality of what you want to accomplish, and you're imagining, you know, how that can be structured in order to accomplish those objectives. Okay, so it is essential to any revolutionary enterprise. Okay, Yeah, there can be too many theorists and too few uh

you know, partisans. But the the converse is just as self defeating. Okay, I'm sure there's those who are gonna say that's like my egghead prejudice. It's not. It's not, I don't it's but it's inarguable. Okay, it's not. It's not something that it's not something that playable theory yeeks

just insist upon as as a cope or whatever. But the uh, what did prevail initially in terms of the dominant strain A bear in mind epistemic priors that informed everyone in the radical left were one hundred percent Marxist in nature. But the practical tendency, ideological tendency that became, you know, most dominant, very rapidly, was we're things of an anarchist nature, okay. And in the early days it was the largest force within the urban working class of Spain.

Small that as it was, but again it was it was the it was supposed to act as the vanguard. Okay, it wasn't you know, a question of taking a head count. And there's a lot of reasons why anarchism appealed so much to this population, you know, a lot of which

we just got into. But also something that the left in Spain realized very early on, was there, like, look, okay, the structure of this state entails things, you know, like the Roman church, you know, and uh entails things you know like uh like chartered like chartered companies you know, that are bound up with the private fortunes of aristocrats. You know. The very architecture for the state is like teams with teams with the hostility to our objectives. So

we've got to create parallel institutions. Okay, So we're gonna have you know, like the workers Relieve organization. You know, We're not We're not We're not gonna go to you know, like the monastic order is to like help out widows of like the men of ours who die. Okay, Like you know, we're not We're not. We're not gonna We're not. We're not gonna try and capture you know, the like

the local constables office and in Catalonia or whatever. You know, Like we're gonna we're gonna maintain our own country discipline, you know, and we're also going to like handle our own like justice. You know, we're never going to rely upon you know, the state or any of it's some affiliated institutions and bureaucracies, you know, to guarantee as a justice or anything else. And we started as we started death.

But that's the way it's going to be. And that is something enduring too that basically everybody imitated, even even even even the fascist and the National Socialist to some degree imitated that, okay, because it's just in a in a political warfare situation, especially during a long struggle, like

you you just have to do that, okay. And also then you know you have you have new institutions and being that you know, have never had sort of the sovereign authority of the state behind them, but they have. They have acted in authoritative capacities on matters of life and death. And in some cases their existence is going

back decades. And you know, they had existed as you know, floating like sovereigns and to themselves, you know, in the fact that they commanded, you know, they commanded and controlled you know, tens of thousands of men under arms. You know, they had operational areas that constituted like you know, territory they literally held. You know, at some point people are talking symantics when they're like, oh, that's not really a government,

So what are you talking about? Why, you know what, why would you even care about you know, why would you gonna go to that trouble trying to replace the you know, pre pre existing institutions of of of state. Well that's that's why this shouldn't be It shouldn't be mysterious.

And finally, uh or I mean not relatively, It wasn't just that the church and in Spain we can talk about the Church, because I mean Spain, the Spanish are Catholic people, you know it Uh, the uh, the Spanish left view they view they viewed the church and they viewed UH. Despite the fact that I mean that there's a delicious irony to fern in Isabella, you know, basically removing the mandate of U of the Holy See to render a judgment on power political questions of war in peace.

Well at the same time you know, enforcing uh, you know, the moral law according to the understanding of of uh, the papacy in a way sight and scene probably for five hundred years. And there's also there's also a uh, there's also a real irony in guys, you know, like waving a red banner as they charging the combat, you know, demanding you know, social justice basically you know, assigning the

Marxist gobbledygook. They're basically saying, like, we're Catholic people, you know who need you know, who need a Calolic church to sort of act as an air mediory between us and there would be class oppressors or aggressors, you know. Yet we reject the Kalok Church and want to destroy it. But again, the internal logic of it, of the enterprise. That's what they would have had to do, Okay, and that's one of the reasons people recognize us on some level,

even people who aren't, you know, ultra sophisticated. Now that I'm so sophisticated, but I mean, do spend all day like reading about this stuff. But you know, the uh, it's it should uh it should become clear, you know, at least in part why some of these so of these peculiarities became you know, not just sort of you know, quirkly identified with the Spanish modern state, but somehow inextricably bound off with like it's it's it's it's you know,

and that's and that's about all I got for today. Man. Again, I'm still kind of recovering from my from my my vacation the Cook County, at the Cook County Resort and hotel. But I thought it was important to cover because we're gonna come back to a lot of these aspects and I didn't want it to be I didn't want them to be issues the first impression, you know, as they

kind of re emerged. But I promise when we record next, we'll we'll get into you know, general Franco arriving back from Morocco and you know kind of how battle resolved between uh, you know, between the Nationalist element and UH counter Legion and the Hermacht and and Thomas tanks, you know, and the UH and and the Reds and and Republicans all in Sundry. Does that sound good?

will be in the next few weeks, you know. In the meantime, I'm gonna be uploading a lot of free stuff, you know, to the sub stack, Like today, I just uploaded an interview with a friend of mine, like, you know, an older dude who uh who knew Jeff Ford and he banged with the l Ruken here in Chicago. I'm gonna be I'm gonna when I you know, I'm gonna dropping a lot of that kind of stuff until we

kind of formally relaunched the brand. I've been doing. I've been recording a lot with Nico Kloud, who's a fascinating guy, an artist and a very controversial figure that's gonna he's gonna feature heavily in season two. But you can find the substick in the pod at real Thomas seven seven seven that substick dot com. Uh. You can find me

on Twitter, but my tweets are protected. People tell me Twitter is not censoring as aggressively as before, but I've literally hit my accounts nuke so many times for you know, and number once if I.

can always find me in my website. It's just Thomas seven seven seven dot com number seven eight twenty seven seven seven dot com. That's where all my like fresh stuff like appears. It's still like somewhat under construction, but you can that will always be around. Okay. And as uh, people keep asking about the channel content that is coming to I haven't figured out exactly how I want to integrate it with the pod. I want some I don't want to just be like a mirror of the pod.

But with video, I mean, if people want sign some people like that and they just like listening to stuff, I like to see your YouTube, I'll do that, but I do want some original video content. I don't want primarily that the channel to be that like one thing at a time. And I'm uh, I want to I'm yeah,

and it's but that's the basically where we're at. Okay, and just keep uh, just keep your eyes peeled for like fresh stuff because I'm gonna be uploading I'm gonna be uploading a ton of like just free stuff like

it today every several days. And when when the season two of the pod launches, all season one content is going to become free immediately and it will be dope like and when I say like rebranding, like we've got the resources and and kind of the knowledge as well as you know, sort of like the you know, a higher profile in terms of people who are willing to work with us, you know, like like Nego klout like yourself, I'm not seeing you guys are like similar people and

understand okay, okay, but and uh and and people like you know, my friend Big d you know, who drops his system when you're honest about the old rouken But uh, like we're popping quite splendidly, and and that that that's you know a lot for other potentialities. So yeah, I won't I won't hold up the recording anymore. Man. That's that's all I got. Thank you so much. And thank you again for like the trans love and concern for me when you know I went dark and accounted being arrested,

Like I really mean that. I got huge love for all of our friends a.