Live From London: Equal Pay for Equal Play

show up in their paychecks. No matter how famous female athletes are in soccer or in anything else, they don't make anywhere close to what men do. The US women's soccer team wants to change that. A few months ago, they filed a lawsuit against the US Soccer Federation asking for equal pay for equal work. Last week I went to London to tape a live episode of this show all about women's Soccer. We talked about the growing professional league there, the World Cup, and whether female athletes will

ever make what men do. But before I went, I wanted to understand what's going on here in the US. Eman Novi Williams, covers sports for Bloomberg, asked him to tell me why female soccer players make so much less than men him, Hi, are you thanks for coming? Thanks for having me. So in March, the US women's soccer team filed this big lawsuit for a gender discrimination Can you tell me about it? They are women's national soccer team, for those who don't know, a tremendously successful program on

the on the global world stage. Is asking for essentially the same pay that men get, you know, the equal pay for equal work. That is their argument that they just like the men's national team. They travel, they train, they play games here, they play games abroad, they go to the World Cup. Um they do all the same things that the men get, except they're not paid the same and they they feel as though they're they're owed. That part of that is the success of the two teams.

Right the last Women's World Cup in the US, not only one, but the finals match against Japan, when the US just blew the Japanese team out of the water. They that was the most watch soccer game ever in American in US history, US television history. Um. So, you know, for that reason and the fact that the men's team, you know, a couple of years later failed to qualify for the World Cup. Right, so they missed the most

important event of the men's soccer schedule. You know that there are a number of women's soccer players who are you know, stars in and of themselves, and you can't, at least right now, can't really say say the same about the men's team. Yeah, so why are women making those money? The two teams are structured very differently, so women are paid more like traditional employees and that they have a yearly salary, and they also get some money depending on the amount of games they play. The men

men's national team is essentially paid game by game. So if you look at those kind of averaged out over a year, a man who plays kind of the full slate of games for the US men's national team over the course of a year gets paid a significant amount more than a woman who gets paid the same get plays the same amount of games over that same year. I think one argument that might work against the women is how much money the teams are bringing in each and how many people are watching each of the teams.

Are the women bring in more money? Are they getting more viewers? Do they have that argument to make that they're more valuable? So all the international soccer schedule works in these four year cycles that culminate in the World Cup. The fact that the men didn't the US men didn't qualify for the World Cup didn't mean that the US Soccer didn't make a tremendous amount of money off the men's team, because Fox, which pays for the rights to

broadcast those in English, they still paid that money. Right they expected the US to be there. Uh, certainly executives and Fox were a little bummed that they paid a lot of money for rights and people weren't able to watch the men's team. But it's still a tremendously huge property. Right It's still probably one of the biggest events on the U s sports calendar every four years when it comes up, and for that reason, the men's team brings

in a lot of money. Now Women's World Cup and women's National team games are part of that same package. So it's kind of hard to break out. You know, Hey, if Fox paid a billion dollars for this right cycle, is it? You know, is it six million for the men's side, for the women's side, is it? It's hard to break those out. But but the bulk of the money that US Soccer makes in media revenue is really

for the men's soccer tournament. But you said that the women's World Cup game that the US one two cycles ago, was the most watched soccer game in US. Yeah, and so I think this is exactly where the claim by the women starts to get really interesting. Is that on the field the team is much more successful than the men, and your start to see metrics that show that, you know, maybe from from a few different business perspectives, they're they're

they're they're becoming, they're starting to catch up. From from the money standpoint as well. Again, the viewership number is less relevant than what you know, US Soccer gets paid for the Fox to air that game. It's absolutely no, they're certainly related. The people who advocate for the US women to be paid more, they accept the fact that the men's national team makes more than the women's national team.

But there's an argument out there to be made that if you put more resources behind it, maybe if you paid the women more, you know, maybe if that, you know, gend up a little more enthusiasm for games, more people are going to go to them, more people are gonna watch them, and that if US Soccer invested more in this women's team. Who says that they couldn't close the

revenue gap a little bit more as well. Right, And this is kind of a chicken and egg argument which really exists for women's sports across the world, right because the argument always against you know, paying professional women's athletes more money than they're making right now is that they're not generating as much as the men. But there is certainly kind of a strain of this argument that says, hey, what happens if we actually invest more upfront in women's sports.

There's tremendous amount of momentum for it from a corporate standpoint, from a viewership standpoint um, and if we maybe if we invest them, then this argument of hey, the men's team makes so much more than the women's team, maybe that starts to narrow or even disappear. But I also think we're in this moment where female athletes in the US especially are you know, some of the best athletes we've seen, their celebrities, their brands, they bring in a

ton of money. I mean, I'm thinking like Serena Williams or someone Biles or some of these soccer players. So it does feel like the tides are turning in that way at least. Yeah, and I would argue that there is almost like a total kind of discrepancy between the presence that these women have from like a brand and marketing standpoint versus the way that they are kind of

treated on the court. But I can tell you if you listen to a Nike earnings call any time in the past couple of months, you know, Mark Parker is adamant that they are in a phase right now, a turning point in terms of women, in terms of the aspirational quality of female athletes out there, in terms of the growth in sales that they're seeing for women's apparel and for women's shoes, the Women's World Cup, which is coming up in in about a month. Uh, they are

treating very very seriously. If you talk to people in that in the apparel space, you know, a lot of the corporate side of things that they think that we're reaching this kind of major turning point in terms of the way that consumers view female athletes. I like, like, if you listen to those Nikes earnings calls and yeah, don't do that, just take my word for it. He talks about women a lot. When you look at the world, you know what the population like, where is our place,

like where's our value? Women deserve equal for equal work. Today is the deadline for UK businesses of your gender pay gap details show a few sides of progress and in some cases the imbalance has got word. Should women and men be paid the same for what they do? In school? Eight members of the U S women's national soccer team filing a gender discrimination lawsuit against the US Soccer Federation. We are less promoted than the men's side. And when it goes to compensation, we aren't paid a

dollar to the dollar. Having a bollondor for female and the male with a completely natural than to me. Sports can influence the imagipation of girls and women in a society. Welcome to the paycheck. I'm Rebecca Greenfield. Last week I went to London for Bloomberg's Equality Summit. With the Women's World Cup coming up in June, I sat down to talk women's sports and pay with Kelly Smith. She played soccer in the UK and the US for twenty years and she holds the record for the most goals scored

ever by a woman in England. We were joined by Kelly Simmons, the head of the Women's Football Association in England, and Lena Weldson Gabelle, the managing director for Europe in the Middle East for the sports marketing agency Wasserman. We start by talking about how the sport has changed for women in the last twenty years. So I want to start with where we are in the sport today and where we've come from. And Kelly, you played for decades and I think you can. I want to hear from

you how far we've come from a player's perspective. What did it used to be like and what is it like now for women playing in the UK. Like you said, I've played pretty much better a football in my whole life. Um and forty years old now. I retired a few years ago. And when I first started playing the game of football, UM, I was happy to pay to play. I was playing sub fees, referees, fees paid for the pitches, UM, playing for the stadiums that we were playing in. UM.

It was really at the lowest of the low. When I was playing for England at the age of sixteen, the pictures that we were training on were very muddy, very boggy. Some of the pictures had dog pool on. UM. You know, it was the lowest of the low that you could be in. Um. Now I look at the state of the game twenty odd years ago, having retired, I see thousands of people interested in the women's games

turning up. We recently had an f A Cup Final at Wembley Manchester cityb west Ham where forty four thousand attended the game. We have the Women's World Cup this year, which for me is going to be the most special tournament with the most watch viewing figures because the BBC are covering all the women's games. When I was playing, people used to say to me, why do you only playing one game a year? And I'm like, what, we

have a whole season. But were they only used to see one game on TV and that was the f A Cup Final. So I think the game is in such a big, healthy state. More brands are coming on board and more sponsors are interested in the game. So

it's just in a fantastic place. Yeah. That that's really wild to me that just twenty years ago women were paying to play something that you know, I think we consider a profession now, Kelly, I want to hear about the state of player from a league standpoint and where we are now and how it's professionalized the Women's super League went fully professional this season just finished Arsenal. So it's the first time really that I guess girls can look up and see role models like Kelly and think wow,

I can be like the guys. I could be a professional football I can see that journey through schools, through clubs, through our England youth teams and become a professional footballer. Where we are I know the topics, gender pay gap. I can't think of an industry that's starker difference if I'm honest, because you know, we know here that men's football is multi billion industry. It's not just women's football.

Women's sport has had over the years recent stats. I think eis like one of sponsorship deals women's sport here UM, but it's shifting massively. So we've gone professional. We've brought in barclays On as our targa sponsor for next year in the Record deal. It's the biggest investment by brand in women's sport in the UK. UM. We're starting to see the clubs bringing commercial partners as well to help transform the women's game and make it more sustainable. I

guess we're on a journey. We've moved massively from dog Pictures with dog Mark. Yeah, you mentioned the pay gap and in the UK, you guys have pay recording which we don't have from the US. And I know Bloomberg has reported that the biggest gaps were the football leagues. But Lena, yeah, I want to you know, you mentioned bar glaze and I want to talk about that more. But yeah, what is the interest from brands and sponsorships and the BIS in this interest now and how has

that developed recently? Yeah, I mean I've seen such a change. I mean, I I'm also American clearly, um, and I came over here about ten years ago, and it's gone from when I first started this industry as being a vanity investment at the time. Uh, And a decision maker or someone from a brand would say, you know, I'm investing in men's football on this side of the fence, but you know what, I have to feel good, I'm going to do this as well. And their heart wasn't

into it. I'm sure you guys saw it. They wouldn't put any resources behind it, but they had it in their sort of repertoire of things they were doing to feel good about themselves, and so they weren't doing anything for the game. But what we are saying now is a real start and a real investment by brands understanding women's sports, understanding how to engage with it, understanding the

value of it. That's not for everyone, but it's for some brands who believe in growing the game and are useful to the game and growing the integrity of the game. Those are the people we want to see there. Yeah, I think. I mean, we've seen seven brands coming over the last year to invest in women's football across the linuses and the women's Super leagualously. Barclays is our record deal. I think, Um, first of all, there's a big audience for women's football, so I think there's a myth that

there's not a big audience. Women's World Cup coming up. Three quarters a million tickets sold, four million people watching the Women's Euros here when it was on Channel four. It's on BBC one. Um coming up, you know multimillions of people will be following. The liness is. I do want to talk about pay and I know you know in the US the women's team issuing for equal pay.

I think the conversation here is very different. We're definitely further away from that here, and Kelly, I'm wondering, you know, how you think we move that conversation forward or where you think we are in the equal pay ef fight. Um, it's hard for me to kind of justify our England players, you know, earning what the men play because of the you know, the TV revenue, the sponsorship that comes through. I can totally understand the US lawsuit. They generate generated

more profits and revenue than the US Soccer Federation. They had large audience and played more games than the men. The women have also won three World Cups, four Olympics and really good and the men's team have only just one one knockout round game in the World Cup. This generation have failed to qualify for the World Cup last year, so I can see where they're coming from. They're in a different um place because they've been successful. Our lionesses

haven't had that success. And right now it's it's for me. It's not about they're earning millions, because there's not millions to be earned within the game, as I said, because of the the money that's not hasn't been in the game. They want to grow the game, they want to be the faces of women's football. They want to inspire the next generation, and I think that's what we want as female athletes, to inspire the young girls. They want to

be role models. So when a five or six year old looks up and says, I want to play football, then you can see Steph Haughton, the England captain, or Frank Kirby and be like, I want to do what she's done. I want to do what Kelly Smith did, and that is so more important for these generation of players. Is not to say that in the future years they won't be earning more money. I hope they do. But

as I said before, we were paying to play. But these players now fortunate enough that the f A put them on centralized contracts and they earn a salary through their club too. For me, the priority is to help make the Women's Super League sustainable in its own right, so it's not reliant on subsidies. Wanted a better word

from men's football, because with that comes vulnerability. So we've seen clubs where you get a changing owner or men's football money's cut there, they're relegated, the women's club goes or it goes from being professional back too amateurs. I think the most important thing in terms of the journey of the women's game here through bar clears, through TV rights, through sponsors, through working with the clubs to get them right, infrastructure in the clubs and capability to commercialize the game

and grow the audiences. We can stand on our own two feet. That's the next big bit of the journey. I think we can get there in sort of five years. That's more important really in some ways. And thinking about having us as a conversation about our women football is going to learn a handful of them and you know they're not going to learn what men are. And because they're learning three four k a week, um, I think the next big step for us is to make it

sustainable so women's football can can protect itself. Now, there has been a lot of headlines about record breaking audiences, but on average it's still pretty low. So yeah, maybe Kelly, do you what do you think about building the audience? How do you think that can happen? From a player's perspective, it's about it's about exposure, getting the games, like Kelly said, onto TV. It helps when the national team is successful. So I know in the Lioness is um had a

fantastic following, reaching you know, peeking figures. Even though there's a massive time and difference from Canada to England this June into July in Paris, I'm hoping it's the same time difference, so a lot more people, thousands, millions of people will be able to watch and really follow the Lionesses and and it helps that they do well. You know, if they not get out of the group, I think that's a devastating um impact that it could have on

the women's game. I don't see that happening because of the quality that they have in the squad and the manage that they have. I see them at least at least reaching the semifinal um and you know, having that exposure put on BBC and you can see the team play and perform and the products there now. Probably when I was playing, um, you know, eight nine, ten years ago, the product probably wasn't there. The quality on the field wasn't there. Now it is. You know, you can see

a high of all performance. Yes, the game isn't as fast as the men's game because women are built differently, but there's a it's a game. You know, if you want to watch football and it's a different game and you have like open eyes with it, and I you know, say to anybody, give women's football a chance. If you watch it at high level, you know England v USA, you're gonna enjoy the game because of the quality that on the pitch, the technique that the players have, the

vision um, the endurance. It's a fast, physical game for the women's game. And I think once you see that then it will win a lot of people over and

it's about having that exposure. Then Okay, yes, you've seen the Lionesses get out of the group, into the semifinals, into the final, Wonder World Cup, whatever, But then can we get that fan base to come through the gates and watch an Arsenal Bourminham a redd in a man city at Chelsea and come out on the weekends and support the club club club gaming, not just the international level. From my opinion, I also think it's appealing beyond women.

It's appealing to sports fans. I mean that's how tennis did it. If you look at the respect for women's tennis, it comes from a great game. It comes from people being exposed to that. And you know men are the first to say that will be when I think we've really succeeded in driving the audiences when we're not only appealing to families, we're not only appealing, you know, to to the women because we're supporting other women were repealing

to the sports fan. I think the one challenge, which is a bit controversial, is that we're going to have to fight against a little bit of the me too reaction that's going on right now and happen focused on focused on the sport and focused on the beauty of the sport, and we're not watching women's football, watching beautiful football. And I think that's something that's really important is that

it's not just at a big event or moment. It's not like it's not watching it because it's women were not investing, because it's women were investing in the sport and the participation for both young boys and young girls to grow the game. So you've all have kind of mentioned this grassroots movement and I've read about this where it seems like there is more of an effort to have youth sports and appealed to younger women. What is

the role of that in building at the game. And I feel like in the US that's a that is part of it. Why there's a success there. I would say that one thing that we're behind, and you guys are obviously much question to the participation side, but where we don't we don't have Title nine over here, and I think that really gave a boost to women's sports in the US. That's sort of that is for everyone.

When you have in in university um a number of men's sports you have, they have the equivalent number of women's sports that are funded by the universities and the

academic education academic institutions. And I feel that from from my experience, there's a lot less emphasis on women being active in sports, and it's not as cool as it might be in the U S. It's coming and it's I think the linuses and women's sports in general are getting further, but I think they are behind a little bit because there's not that legislation and that emphasis culturally on women. Yeah, Kelly, I remember reading and correct me if this was wrong, but that you were kicked off

a co ed team when you were younger. I mean that's certainly different than what we what we had. What I know growing up in the US, obvious, the only girl playing in my town and I joined a local boys team, and I had short hair back there, I looked like a boy. I was a tomboy, and I was scoring six, seven, eight goals a game. And then, you know, dribbling around all the other players and scoring goals and setting up my teammates, and the word got

around the talent. There's this fantastic player called Kelly Smith. Here's any amazing. And I was getting all the headlines in the papers and everything. And then obviously the more games that we played, um, it got out the fact that I was a girl. And it wasn't the players, my teammates or the other boys that was playing against. It was the oppositions parents that had a problem with the fact. I mean I was seven years old, you know, I just wanted to play the game. But it was

the parents that actually stopped me from playing. They sat down and, um, they said, but I couldn't couldn't play anymore. I wouldn't feeld a team against the girl. So my dad had to sit me down and say, Kelly, you can't play football. So I was upset. I said, let's find another team. So I went across town. The same thing happened, scoring, making a name for myself and then

the opposition didn't want to play against the girls. So a very young age, I faced a lot of you know, adversity then and being told I couldn't play and it's the wrong sport for me to play, go play netball. But I was just so passionate and I knew I had a talent and a gift. I wanted to play football and no one was going to tell me that I wasn't going to play. So actually I found a girl's team to play on. We had to travel out of town an hour away for training and games, and

and it progressed from there. So you know, there's been setbacks in my career where if I would have listened to those those parents and saying that I shouldn't play football, I wouldn't have reached the heights that I have over the years. And you know, played for England. That was always a dream of mine. Whenever opportunity is like now for young girls who want to play um, yeah, it's

hugely different now. You know, we've got girls football teams right and women's fotball teams right across the country is about six thousand girls teams. I think the first count when I came in working in development years ago. We found about t teams in the in the country. Between two and a half three million girls and women play some form of football in this country. There's still more

to do. There's still some schools, remarkably UM that kind of segregate their p provision based on gender, which I find still incredible in this day and age. Part of the Barcley sponsorship is to try and is to work with us to try and make sure every girl gets a chance to play football in schools because boys play football in schools either in the curriculum outside of the curriculum. So there's a big focus from US as a governing body to get football in schools UM to develop girls

football in our clubs. Last year we set up eight hundred they're called Wildcats clubs across the country that specialize in five to eleven year old coaching for girls. We're seeing a phenomenal growth. Obviously, the profile of the game's helping. I think that the difference one of the big differences between US and and America is that we've had a lot of cultural barriers over the years to break down around what is what is deemed a girl's sport in the boys sports. I always used to like my job

when I was development director for the essay. There's probably would it be like to try and work in American football promoting women's American football, whereas in your in the US soccer is seem very much as a girl's and boys sport. We've had to break some of that those kind of cultural barriers down. They are breaking down because of the visibility profile of the women's game now. Um, but you know it's been it's been a slog but now this generation have got huge opportunities to play, which

is fantastic. Yeah, I definitely think that's one of the differences that I've noticed where because I think because football in the US is not um as popular, it's been easier for the women to succeed because they're not fairly I think if there were, if this were like American football, and the women would have a harder time. But there's room for them there and there doesn't seem to be

room room here. And yeah, you mentioned these stereotapes that you have to uh faith against and Kelly, I know that your you do commentary, Now, um I do people accept you know you as an expert I mean, obviously you're an expert, but there is definitely it's still Adam sex as m. Yeah, there's certainly now more opportunities for myself and some of my former colleagues that have retired have come out and put themselves in the limelight to

comment commentate on men's football. Um. You know, it's been a difficult um task for us. We have all the experience we've We've played in World Cups, we've played in Olympics, European Championships, We've played the highest elitist level, but there are still stigmas about women commentating on men's football. It's just a small minority of the trolls that you get on on Twitter and Facebook. They tell you to get back in the kitchen and you should be doing the

iron in and you know, very disrespectful. And Alex Scott recently has come out and said she was major league trolled um and gets it on a sexy sexist abuse on a daily basis. I've got it a daily basis when I work for BT Sports School and you look at it and you read it and it does hurt you, and I think you have to quite have a quite a strong skin just to bat it away, but I was quite I was struggling for a little bit, um,

you know, dealing with those comments. It's sticks in your mind, but you have to push you away and realize that you are respected within the industry. The pundits that you sit along alongside value your opinion and it's good to have a little debate. You know, if you disagree with me or if I disagree with you, it doesn't mean that I'm any less than you. Just because I'm a female. I've got a strong, valid opinion and I want to

put that across. So you know, there are opportunities, like I said, now for women that are retiring for football to come and step into the women's game and the men's game just to know that they're trailing as our far and I can. I feel like any woman who as a public figure has to deal with us, and it's like a part of your job and we should get paid to deal with that. UM. So I'm so sorry that you have to deal with that on a

regular basis. UM, But as a with the World Cup coming up to turn to something more exciting, Um, you guys are that experts. So for our new fans who you're all going to be watching what what we look out for? Who is going to you know, give us the insiders take. I thought you can ask us who's going to win the I mean, um, as I said, England have a very good chance. Um, They've got youth, they've got experience, they've got a very young, hungry manager.

They won the bronze medal in Canada. So the mentality now is there within the England squad. Germany are always a strong force within football. When I played for England, we never beat Germany, which really still grinds on me to this day. But the USA number one in the world. UM won the last World Cup. It's hard to do it back to that. But they've got a fantastic coach in jule A List who is more than capable of galvanizing that squad. Japan of fantastic side Holland. There's just

so many now. When I was playing, there's probably two or three nations that you knew would win, but now I'm saying five, six, seven nations. It's just so good to watch because before it's a little bit predictable, but now you can look at the the national teams and think you can win it. You can win it and it makes it exciting for the fans to engage in and support the World Cup. Yes, so now you are can go to your world Camp partiers and sound you

know you have the insider's tick. Um I want to thank you are so much for coming and talking about this and um I re really appreciate it. M h m M. Thanks for listening to the Paychecks first ever live episode. If you like the show, please head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to rate and review. This show was hosted and reported by me Rebecca Greenfield. This episode was edited by Janet Paskin and produced by Toker Foreheads. We also had production help from

Francesca Levi and Jillian Goodman. Our original music is by Leo Citron. Francesca Levi is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts m