Welcome back to the Pathway Chili for part two of our series about the disappearances of Paul Skiba, Sarah Sciba, and Lorenzo Shiverer. Actually is taking a break, so Jules and I are doing this series of episodes completely on her own, where I share the information with her and she gives off reactions. So before we continue, I'll just give a brief recap at a lot of the details about the case. It took place back in February of
nineteen ninety nine in Westminster, Colorado. Thirty eight year old Paul Skib as the owner of the moving company called Tough Movers. He was currently divorced and had a joint custody agreement with his ex wife, and his nine year old daughter, Sarah Skiba, would often come visit him on
this particular weekend. Paul, who also lived with his mother, Sharon, She would ordinarily watch over Sarah when he did his moving jobs, but since she was out of town attending to personal affairs, Paul would have to bring Sarah on his most recent job, and they would accompanied by one of their employed by one of his employees, a thirty six year old Lorenzo shiver But after they completed their moving jobs, they just seemed to vanish without a trace,
and it turned out that there were traces of blood, bullet holes, and even some hair and a scout fragment at his moving yard on one of the trucks, which seemed to indicate that off missing people had become the victims of foul play. But unfortunately, the police investigation in
this one was very incompetent. They initially just ignored all the bullet holes on the evidence of foul play and suspected that Paul decided to take off with Sarah as to violate the custody agreement he had with his ex wife, which made no sense because Lorenzo had a wife and children of his own and it didn't make any sense
that he would decide to take off with them. But things got more complicated when it turned out that Paul was currently living with his girlfriend, Teresa Donovan, and she had recently had a baby named Paul Roger Skiba, even though it couldnt be conclusively determined if Paul was the boy's father, and Paul had decided that he was going to kick Teresa out of the house and try to sue for custody of Paul Roger, but he just happened to go missing on the very same day this was
supposed to take place. And to make things even more complicated, Lorenzo was involved in a relationship with Teresa's sister, Bobby Joe, but it appeared that he was going to end that one because he was going to reconcile with his wife. And there was a lot of suspicion that Teresa and Bobby Joe knew a lot more about the disappearances that
they were letting on. And it also turned out they had a brother named Tom Donovan, who years later would go to prison for the attempted murder of their mother. He was known for having a history of mental health issues and violent episodes, so it has been theorized that perhaps Bobby Joe and Theresa could have been listed Tom's help to do something to Paul, but things got out of control and he wound up murdering Paul, Sarah, and
Lorenzo and disposing of their bodies. But unfortunately, they've been unable to find enough evidence to implicate anyone and the three victims are still missing twenty seven years later. So in two thousand and five, Paul's mother Sharon reached out to the organization Families of Homicide Victims and Missing Persons, who agreed to obtain the funding to put up a billboard near Tough Movers which would spread awareness about the
case and feature photos of the three missing victims. Shortly thereafter, the Westminster Police Department announced that they were taking over the investigation from the Thornton Police Department, even though they had originally shown no interest in the case at the outset and were not very communicative with the victim's loved
ones or the media. Since Sharon was Paul's conservator, she was responsible for paying off his outstanding debts, which was not financially sustainable for and while she wanted to sell Paul's house, she was unable to do so without a death certificate. It was not until December of two thousand and six, nearly eight years after they originally went missing,
when Paul and Sarah were legally declared dead. After obtaining Paul's death certificate, Sharon finally sold his house, but the money she earned from the sale, as well as proceeds from a one hundred thousand dollars life insurance policy Paul had taken out on Sarah, wound up going to the child, Paul Roger. At one point, during a trip to Idaho, Theresa had a paternity test taken for Paul Roger and
mailed the lab results to the Skiba family. The documentation showed that Paul was the child's father, but given the troubled history with Teresa, they were not entirely trustful of the results. Sharon eventually moved back to Minnesota, but on December the twenty seventh. In twenty thirteen, she succumbed to cancer at the age of seventy four. Paul's father, c J. Would also pass away in December of twenty twenty at
the age of eighty eight. In February of twenty nineteen, Denver's Channel nine News ran a twentieth anniversary segment about the case, which revealed that during the previous five years, detectives from the Westminster p d had interviewed two additional witnesses and resubmitted DNA evidence for analysis, but they were still not yet at the point where they could solve
the case and make an arrest. Sarah's mother, Michelle Russell, was interviewed for the segment and stated quote, there are too many people who are remaining silent about this for too long. The murder of a nine year old girl. Twenty years is an insane amount of time to not know what happened to your child. Please be a decent human being and come forward with your information anonymously if you have to end the silence and help bring Sarah home.
End quote. In February of twenty twenty five, on the twenty six year anniversary of the crime, the detectives from the Westminster PD announced that they had reanalyzed the original evidence and discovered new DNA that they were hoping to test with more advanced modern technology. But for the moment, no one has ever been charged for the role in the three victims disappearances, so Paul Skiba, Sarah Skiba, and
Lorenzo Shiver all continue to remain missing persons. So I guess you could say the path went Chile.
Okay. I have so many questions here. I feel so horribly for Michelle and obviously for Sharon because she took the position of being the conservator and having to dole out payments to it. Sounds like Teresa for Paul Roger. And then we have this DNA test that I don't know if Sharon was pushing for a DNA test or if Teresa volunteered, and what type of lab this went through. I would like to know, was this irreputable lab? What
did the results look like? Is there a reason that they believed that they could be because it seems that from a legal perspective, because Paul's name was on Paul Rogers's birth certificate, that his estate was essentially going to go to Paul Roger and that there didn't seem to be much legal recourse. So I don't know what would be the motivation in faking the paternity at that point when it seems like all funds are being diverted to Paul Roger regardless of praternity.
Yeah, because I know that Sharon was still responsible for paying child support on Paul's behalf while he was missing to Paul Roger, even though it had not yet been conclusively established that Paul was the child's father. But before he went missing, Paul still had the mindset that even if it isn't my child, I still want to try to get paternity and get custody because I don't trust Teresa to be a responsible mother and raise this child correctly.
And that's why he did volunteer to put his name on the birth certificate, because we do know that they were technically broken up for a while, but they had sex one and that's likely when she became pregnant, but they just had a hard time trusting paternity. And I do know that they were suspicious that maybe uh Teresa had the DNA results, But before that even happened, Sharon was still responsible for paying child support and financially supporting the child, so I don't think there would be much
reason to a doctorate either way. But like you said, I don't have too many details about how she got these tests. I just didn't know that they were done in a different state and she sent the documentation, but since I haven't personally seen it, I don't know if there's a good reason to believe if it's doctored.
And I'm not sure if we addressed this last week. I don't think that we did. But I am curious if you know any more details as to the nature of the relationship between Lorenzo and Bobby Joe, Like, did they have a tumultuous relationship? Do we know if they were like breaking up and making up, or if they'd been together for a long period of time, or if there would have been any motivation for Bobby Joe to go along with this and to have Lorenzo killed as well.
Yeah, that's why I have a lot of unanswered questions, because all we really know is that technically Lorenzo was separated from his wife, but at the time he went missing, there was apparently talk that he was going to have a reconciliation with her, which kind of indicates that his relationship with Bobby Joe was not in a good place and they didn't have much of a future. But I also haven't heard any details about them having any fights. It's not like with Paul and Teresa, where Teresa was
on disability would not work. But she was inviting people over to party and do drugs while Paul Roger was there and was completely neglecting him, which pretty much caused Paul to reach the end of his rope. And we also talked about the fact that Lorenzo's son, Josh, had been living with Lorenzo and Bobby Joe, even though Lorenzo's
daughter was still with her mother. But we also talked about how only a couple days after Lorenzo went missing, Bobby Joe immediately packed up Josh's belongings and pushed them out of the house, which seemed to indicate she knew that Lorenzo was not coming back. And so yeah, it definitely seems that there was suspicious stuff going on there.
And I don't know if Bobby Joe was specifically like wanting Lorenzo to be killed, but I could also see her not caring if something happened to Lorenzo because the relationship may not have been in a good place.
And who knows, like maybe Teresa whipped her up into a frenzy. If Teresa felt like she was being broken up with and her soft place to land was being taken away and that she was going to be kicked out of Paul's house, the timing is really curious. And then if we have a possibility that Lorenzo was going to reconcile with his wife, then we could have two
jilted sisters. And we also know from the brother that there's an emotional regulation problem, it seems like with Teresa and with Tom, because we know that Tom stabbed his mother and like lacerated her liver. It was very very intense, So I don't know what we can deduce about Bobby Joe. I would just be making assumptions based on the information
we have about Tom and Teria Lisa. But I would think that there is a possibility that you could have somebody in a situation like he's going to leave me for his wife, and my sister's also in this situation. You've got them coming together and deciding to do this, because perhaps Teresa is just like, I don't want to put up with being put out, and I'm going to get my sister on my side, and then we can also get our brother, and then we've got three of us, and maybe we can get away with this crime.
Yeah, and we'll discuss this more. But I've always considered the possibility that maybe they didn't want anyone to be killed, that maybe they wanted Tom to maybe rough them up a little bit, rough up Paula and Lorenzo, but did not expect that he would commit a triple homicide. And that even if Bobby, Joe and Theresa were not present when this took place, or we're actually directly involved in the crime, they know what happened and have remained silent
for so many years. Because I just shared the quote from Michelle that she believes a number of people out there know exactly what happened to the three missing victims and have remained silent the entire time. Well, I've always had a particular interest in cases where multiple people disappear at the same time, but this one is particularly unusual, as it involved a father, a daughter, and an employee who just happened to work for the father, all going
missing simultaneously. In some cases like this, there can be ambiguity about whether one of the missing individuals was actually a victim, or if they may have killed the other victims themselves before they disappeared voluntarily. Since twenty seven years have passed and no evidence has ever surfaced to suggest that Paul Skiba, Sarah Sciba, or Lorenzo Shiber are still alive, that scenario doesn't seem likely here, but I still see
it brought up in online discussions about this case. What's particularly disturbing is that there's ample evidence to indicate that Sarah was murdered, and even if she was not the intended to target, the responsible party didn't seem to have any qualms about killing a nine year old child. I'll stay right up front that the original police investigation in this case is one of the worst I've ever seen, and we've covered a lot of bad ones on this podcast.
When you consider that it involved a missing child who was likely a victim of foul play, the seer in neptitude and indifference on display here was all the more disgraceful.
At the outset, the disappearances wound up being reported to no less than three different law enforcement agencies, the Westminster Police Department, the Thornton Police Department, and the Grandee County Sheriff's Office, and they all initially seemed to believe that the whole thing was a parental abduction and that Paul had elected to run away with Sarah because he was unhappy over his custody agreement with his ex wife. I mean, if the only missing victims were Paul and Sarah, then
I suppose this theory wouldn't be all that unreasonable. But how would this account for Lorenzo Shiver's disappearance. Why would a loving father with two children of his own just decide to abandon them and throw everything away just to go on the run with his boss. This theory could have been easily discounted if the Westminster PD had bothered to go to tough movers and perform a proper search of the parking lot, but this did not take place
for days. Jerry Biby's account of the officer who somehow neglected to notice traces of blood on the moving truck and a scout fragment on the windshield is truly mind blowing. And even when the Westminster PD found bullet holes on the side of another moving truck, they still refused to believe that a crime had been committed and felt, well, maybe someone fired up the truck on a previous occasion.
If this case had been treated as a homicide from the very start and a proper forensic analysis was performed with the trucks and the parking lot, this case may have been solved relatively quickly, even if by chance or responsible parties left their DNA behind. The investigation was botched so badly that I wouldn't hold my breath that the evidence was properly preserved, though it does sound like they were able to recover some DNA during a new forensic analysis last year.
I'm gobsmacked by how bad this police investigation was. The fact that we've got a nine year old missing child, and that they're just ready to write the song as a parental abduction. They don't want to look into it any further. There's all of this blood evidence on and around this van, like we've got scalp, we've got blood on the exterior, and we just have police that aren't even doing the bare minimum, and then we have jurisdictional issues.
Nobody really seems to care until things are being put out into the public right with like billboards, and then it's like, okay, we'll do the bare minimum. So then we have DNA and we don't know at present moment. You're saying how that DNA factors into the case and if it's tied to anybody.
That is true. Yeah, I hadn't heard anything about DNA at all until this past year, and I was assuming that because they botched the crime scene because it wasn't properly preserved, that they were thinking that, Wow, how can we determine which DNA we have here belongs to just regular people who visited this moving yard, or belongs to the killer. But so they've been be very secret of
about details about where they got this from. But I'm assuming they think, well, this DNA cannot be in this particular location unless it belongs to the killer, so hopefully we can match it to someone. But yeah, we talked about how like they saw these bullet holes in a truck and said, well, that doesn't prove anything. Someone could have fired at the truck in a previous occasion. It's like, well, that's very unusual if someone's firing bullets at a moving truck,
like you think you would want to investigate that. And it just seems crazy like that these law abiding citizens who had like a nine year old girl with them, that they're just essentially treating it as like a gang slaying where it's not worth investigating, and that like pretty much all the legwork early on had to be done by Sharon and other friends of the victims.
It's crazy the amount of mental gymnastics that one has to go through after you've seen all of the forensic evidence that's there. I don't know if they have confirmation bias or if they realize that, like what they were doing was wrong and they're just trying to sell it
because they're trying to cover their butts. I'm not one hundred percent sure, and I can't speak to what their motivation is it looks like they're trying to cover their butts, and I don't know if they truly believed that it was a parental abduction and that they could write off all of this evidence. I can, in good conscience believe that all of the police officers that were involved in this case believed that this was a parental abduction. After
this evidence became clear. It seems like maybe somebody was leading the charge with that and it was like, Okay, well we've already said this, so let's double down, rather than being like, let's explore another avenue, which seems like the logical progression to take you go where the evidence takes you. And when you realize there is forensic evidence, nobody's back yet even if it was a parental abduction,
why is Lorenzo with them? None of it makes any sense, and they aren't willing to take any accountability and say, yeah, maybe we got it wrong, and we're human, we're fallible. This happens, let's pursue another avenue.
That's pretty much it. That nobody wanted to admit they screwed up or were wrong and just kept going on the same path, and we talked on it a Lott episode that when like a lot of Paul's friends like broke into the moving yard and was pointing out all the evidence of the police, they were thinking, Okay, we're going to arrest you for breaking in. We're not going to worry about these murder victims and just worry about these trespassing charges, which showed that their priorities were majorly
out of whack. So, in spite of their numerous issues, law enforcement did ultimately reach a conclusion that we can agree with. Paul was always the intended target of the crime and Sarah and Lorenzo wound up being killed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And I suppose now would be a good time to address the theory that Lorenzo was not actually a victim and may have been personally involved in what happened to
Paul and Sarah. Law enforcement has never given off any indication that they believe Lorenzo had a hand in the crime, but we still see this theory push forward by amateur
sluice and online discussions about this case. I think this is based largely on the fact that while there was DNA blood and other physical evidence at the scene, which matched Paul and Sarah Now of it match Lorenzo, of course, I seriously doubt that Lorenzo would have committed these two murders alone and then just decided to go on the run and stay off the radar for twenty seven years. Remember, Lorenzo's car was found in a parking lot several blocks
away from Tough Movers. Why would he abandon it at that particular location and what else would he use his transportation to get away? I suppose an alternate theory is that Lorenzo could have been involved in the crime with other individuals, that after Paul and Sarah were murdered, the others decided to double cross Lorenzo by killing him and disposing of his body. After all, Lorenzo had been living with Bobby Joe Donovan at that time, and her family
is suspected of being complicit in this crime. But nothing we've heard about Lorenzo's character would suggest he was capable of something like this, as by all accounts, he was a very nice guy and a devoted father, and it's hard to imagine someone with two children of their own being that willing to participate in the murder of a
nine year old girl. Lorenzo's wife, Misha, found the rumors and allegations about his involvement to be so hurtful that she actually took the step of writing to the media in order to remind everyone that Lorenzo was a human being and deserved to be treated as such. Dealing with the grief of having a loved one go missing is bad enough, but it must have been extra difficult for
Lorenzo's family to hear accusations that he was a murderer. Personally, I think one of the reasons Lorenzo's blood in DNA was not found at Tough Movers is because he may not have actually been killed there. If Paul and Lorenzo were shot in the parking lot, then the perpetrator or perpetrators may have forced Lorenzo to help them move the bodies into the moving truck at gunpoint. After they left the scene, Lorenzo was subsequently killed at another location and
all the bodies were disposed of together. Whatever happened, I definitely believed that Lorenzo was an innocent victim and had no complicity in the crime.
Yeah, I one hundred percent agree with you on that. I think if Lorenzo was involved. It would have been under duress that he would have been held gunpoint and like you said, help them move the bodies, something like that, and then they killed him at another location. Maybe if they buried the body somewhere. They had him dig the graves. There's a possibility that they used him to be the labor force. But be as far as being involved in
the crimes, I don't see any motivation for Lorenzo. We're hearing murmurings that he's going to possibly get back together with his wife, So why would he murder his boss. This is the job that he has, this is how he would be able to support his family, and he's going to kill his boss, his boss's nine year old daughter. And why because Bobby Joe wants him to? Well, I don't really buy that because he's essentially well potentially breaking up with Bobby Joe to get back with his wife.
So I just don't see a clear motive for Lorenzo to have been involved. And then the fact that he hasn't popped up on the radar anywhere else, He's been out of communication with his entire family, there's no trace of him. I just don't buy that he was involved.
Definitely not. And another logical hole in that is that this took place at the end of a moving day where he, Paul, and Sarah had gone on a bunch of different jobs and done some moving in various locations. So it doesn't make much sense for Lorenzo to spend the entire day doing that and then kill them once they get back to the moving yard. It's like, if you wanted to kill Paul, why not do it at the start of their shift, before they even go out
and are seen together by all these witnesses. But I did find the quote there from Lorenzo's wife Misha to be powerful because we've constantly see this in criminal cases where online sluice will point at the victims' family members or friends even though there's no evidence of it whatsoever.
I mean, we've seen it in stuff like the Idaho four case, where like the surviving roommates are constantly being accused of being involved in the murders because they survived, even though like law enforcement has never given off any indication that they're suspects. So I think that Misha's words are very powerful, just to remember that the these victims and these survivors are human beings and don't spend all this time speculating about their lives and accusing them of
things that they didn't do. So now let's look at the timeline of how events played out on the day these three victims were missing. We do know that Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo traveled to numerous locations to complete some moving jobs on February seventh, and the last time they were confirmed to be alive is when Sarah made a phone
call at six twenty two pm. Details about this phone call are bague, but since this was nineteen ninety nine, I'm not entirely sure that a nine year old girl would have her own cell phone, so it's possible this call was made from a phone at Tough Movers, which is how the authorities were able to confirm that the three victims were there at that time. I've seen one source of state that the call was made to a twelve year old relative of Teresa Donovan's, though it's never
been publicly confirmed who this person actually was. But it seems likely that Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo were ambushed at Tough Movers sometime after the call, as witnesses have confirmed that they saw the moving leaving the parking lot sometime between seven and eight pm. It was apparently returned there at around midnight, meaning that the responsible parties were probably using that four to five hour window to dispose of
the victim's bodies. Since bullet holes were found on the side of another moving truck and mortar oil was poured on the ground to cover up a pool of blood, the evidence suggests that at the very least, Paul was shot to death in the parking lot. As far as I know, no witnesses reported hearing gunshots that night, though someone did report hearing the sound of a woman's scream. I find it interesting that all the sources I've seen
specifically use the word woman rather than girl. This could rule out the possibility that Sarah was the source of the screen, meaning that an adult woman may have been present when the murders took place.
Yeah, we talked about this briefly in part one, and I find this really compelling. I think that when you hear a child's scream, there's a pitch to it, the higher pitch than there would be with an adult woman. And I don't think like you can always tell the difference between a woman's scream and a man's scream. Like I think of the case of Robert Wan, there was the one of the three guys who is, for some
believe are complicit in Robert's murder, Victor Zuborski. He had the higher pitched voice, and I remember people identifying him as sounding like a woman, even that I'm one one operator, So I think that you can't always guarantee and your witness is going to be able to get that correct. But if this year witness did, then I think it would indicate that there is a very strong likelihood that Teresa or Bobby Joe or both of them were present
at Tough Movers at that time. And I'm really curious as to the nature of this phone call, who it was made to, and what was spoken about, but we don't have any of those details.
Yeah, that is so frustrating to me because it's mentioned maybe once during the earliest coverage of this case, but law enforcement has never addressed it since then. And I can understand for privacy reasons if Sarah spoke to a twelve year old that they don't want to release too many details, but it also makes me wonder could that have been like confirmation if this girl was a relative
of Teresa's, that they were back at Tough Movers. So if Teresa was complicit, she probably said Okay, we know that they're there, and then possibly sent someone or traveled there personally in order to commit the murders. But like I said, I find it curious that it just seems like a very important detail and it has not been mentioned at all for over twenty years.
And like I wish we had cell phone data at this point too, because if we did, then you know, they would be able to triangulate the location of Teresa, Tom Bobby Joe. See if this twelve year old relative of Teresa's potentially called Teresa after or where they were at the time when they received this call. Was it a cell phone, was it a landline. There's so much that the technology could tell us, but since it's nineteen ninety nine, it seems like we don't have a very clear picture of any of that.
Yeah, it's it's so weird, And I don't even know what kind of relationships Sarah would have to a twelve year old relative of Teresa's. Because this was her father's girlfriend. She hung around her quite a bit. But I didn't know that she would be particularly close to Teresa's family, So it makes me wonder, why is Sarah electing to call her at this particular time, on this particular night. So I have I think there's probably a piece of the puzzle missing here which we just don't know about.
Like I assumed it must be like a niece or something of Teresa, But then she only has the two siblings that we know about, Tom and Bobby cho and neither of them has a twelve year old daughter, correct.
As far as I know. I mean, if they did, it's never been mentioned anywhere. So makes me wonder. Did Teresa invite this twelve year old once to Paul's place and she befriended Sarah and that's why they're talking on the phone. So yeah, I can only assume that maybe they just want to protect this twelve year old, and that's why law enforcement has not shared too many details
about this call with the public. I think that one of the most important details of this case is that Paul had not originally been planning to work that day. He ordinarily did not like to go out on moving jobs when Sarah was visiting, but he had agreed to take Jerry Byby's shift, since Jerry needed the day off
to prepare for his grandfather's memorial. Investigators have repeatedly stated that they believe Paul was the intended target, and there's no indication that anyone had a motive to kill Jerry and wound up killing the others because they mistakenly assumed that Jerry would be at Tough Movers, So you have to ask how many people knew Paul would be there
that evening. What's extra tragic about this whole situation is that if Sharon had not been away in Minnesota, Paul likely would have just left Sarah at home and had his mother watch over her. So it's just horrible luck that Sarah may have been collateral damage in a premeditated murder plot on her father. Whoever was responsible for this crime, it seems very likely that there had to be multiple people involved, if not with the murder itself, but with
the cover up and disposal of evidence. Loading three bodies onto a moving truck and disposing of them so thorough that they haven't been found in over two decades would be a pretty difficult task for just one person, particularly when you consider that the truck's large extension ramp was missing and may have been used to weigh down the
victims in a body of water. It definitely seems like multiple people had to be responsible for moving Paul and Lorenzo's cars, since they were both abandoned at separate apartment complexes. Lorenzo's vehicle was in a parking lot located several blocks away, so theoretically the person who left it there could have made it back to Tough Movers on foot. However, Paul's car was abandoned several miles away in Denver. There was also traces of mud on the vehicle, even though Paul
was known for keeping it very clean. Hypothetically, if one person used the moving truck to transport the victims' bodies, an accomplice could have followed them in Paul's car, and if they went to a remote area, that would explain where the mud came from. Perhaps, after they dumped the bodies, the driver of Paul's car abandoned it in Denver on their way back had hitched a ride with the driver
the truck when they returned to Tough Movers. But it also sounds like the truck was big enough to fit an entire vehicle in the back, so perhaps that's how they transported it. As far as anyone can tell, no significant connections have been found between the two apartment complexes and the victims, so it's possible they were just chosen
at random. The purpose of moving the cars may have been to throw off the investigation, because if they weren't found at Tough Movers, then perhaps the authorities would be inclined to believe that the victims took off on their own. And well, if that was the perpetrator's strategy, it actually worked. Another bizarre detail of this crime is that the perpetrators went to the trouble of putting a new lock on
the gate to the Tough Movers parking lot. But once again this strategy seemed to work out better than they could have imagined, since it was days before the police even bothered to enter the lot.
Wow, there's just so many possibilities here with what could have happened to the bodies, how many people were involved, and if Lorenzo was roped into helping under like at gunpoint, which I think there's a strong likelihood, because if we are to imagine that Tom was the perpetrator, and that potentially either Teresa or Bobby Joe or both were there.
We have two women who are smaller, we have Tom who's potentially stronger, and to have another man to be able to assist with the laborious tasks such as digging a grave or hauling bodies, then it would make sense to me that Lorenzo's DNA wouldn't have been found on the vehicle, and that he would have been killed at another location. We have mud on the vehicle, which could indicate that they went to a wooded area or that they went closer to a body of water, and that's
how the bodies were disposed of. I do find it curious that it's been this long and that we haven't found any traces of the victims. But it is pop that they could be in a body of water somewhere, or that they could be buried somewhere, and that Lorenzo was, unfortunately the person who would have dug the grave. I think that all things are in play here. None of them strike me as these mastermind criminals. I think it all comes down to really shoddy police work early on.
I think that all could have been uncovered had they doggedly pursued this like they should have with a nine year old child missing and two adult men missing, and just went where the evidence took them, rather than having this theory in their mind with confirmation bias and being like it was a parental abduction and they just really had no way to explain why Lorenzo would have gone along with this or would have been missing as well.
So rather than having a plausible theory that made sense with the evidence, they had a ridiculous theory that made no sense that they doubled down on, and then multiple different police departments seemed to come up short here. No one really seemed to do their due diligence, And it is such a travesty because Paul Lorenzo and little Sarah, nine year old Sarah deserved better.
Oh yeah, like, this was a very sloppy crime, and if it was done with a more competent police department, I don't think that the perpetrators would have gotten away
with it because they left so much evidence behind. And we talked about how Teresa at this time was suffering from arthritis, so she was on disability and unable to work, so I don't think at the very least that she would have been able to contribute too much at helping dispose of the bodies, which is why I agree with your theory that they may have kept Lorenzo alive for a long time and held him at gunpoint to help him dispose of the bodies because they needed his physical
labor before they killed him as well. And yeah, I know we talked about it in our last episode that they searched a number of bodies of water in the area which were in like a radius of a life four or five hours, because we know that trucks was seen leaving a lot between seven and eight and they were brought back there at midnight, so there's only so far they could have driven. But unfortunately they just have
come up empty. So we still can't be one hundred percent certain if the bodies are in water or not, or if they've been buried somewhere, in which case it would be much more difficult to find. So who would have had a motive to commit a crime like this, Well, there's one obvious answer to that question, but before we start discussing it, I want to explore other potential scenarios.
One theory is that the murders may have been drug related, because Paul was supposedly involved in drug dealing and would let pushers park their vehicles in his lot. Of course, since this theory was pushed forward by Teresa Donovan, I would ordinarily take it with a huge grain of salt. But surprisingly, the formerly detective Pat Long actually told Lorenzo
Shiver's family that he believed this is what happened. So if law enforcement is willing to entertain the drug theory, could that mean that they have additional information to suggest it might be true. Well, we do know that Paul had a few prior scrapes with the law in the past, some of which involved drugs, and it sounds like he did smoke marijuana recreationally. But Fall's family insisted that he never would have done anything illegal while Sarah was around,
as due to his custody agreement. I'm sure he would have wanted to pain himself as the most responsible father possible. If Paul really was allowing drug dealers to use his parking lot, then you'd think he would have made sure to keep Sarah away from that place. The fact that he took All along with him on multiple moving jobs which lasted the entire day, suggests that he did not believe there was any danger for himself or his daughter.
I mean, I guess if you're going to push this theory forward and everything is in play right now, we don't have a lot of information, I think this is less likely, but I think it's still a possibility. And if he was using the lot for letting the drug dealers park there and pedal their wares, then maybe he thought, well, I'm just getting the try and I'm taking Sarah and we're going out on jobs. We're not spending time in
the tough movers parking lot. So maybe he didn't believe that he was putting Sarah in danger because it was such a brief amount of time that she would be there, and the likelihood of drug deals going down would be slim to none. I'm not really sure how much weight we can put behind this, especially if we have police believing that this could be a theory. I don't trust their investigations up to this point, but I can't discount the fact that this is a possibility too.
Yeah, and like if it was just Teresa, I wouldn't put much stock into it, But the fact that one of the former league detectives told Lorenzo's family that they believe this is what happened, is why I can't completely dismiss it. But at the same time, this was one of the detectives from the original botched investigations, so it almost seems like it's him shifting the blame, thinking that, well, we may have screwed up, but it's all the entire leave the fault of Paul because he was involved in
legal activity and put his in danger. And if you hadn't been dealing drugs or you're hanging around with dealers, then this wouldn't happen in the first place, so you can't put the entire blame on us. And I find it interesting that he said this for the first time during like an interview with like Lorenzo's son and his wife, So it's almost like he's saying, well, we knew Lorenzo was a good guy, and it's not his fault he was killed. But if you want to blame someone, blame Paul and don't blame us.
That was kind of the vibe that I got. It was like, let's shift the blame a little bit and put the spotlight on Paul. And I just want to remind everybody that these weren't meth dealers. These weren't coke dealers, they weren't dealing heroin. They were selling marijuana. So think of the type of client tell that they are going to be servicing versus somebody who would potentially be selling meth.
I wouldn't think that he would be getting into this major clash with weed dealers that would end up with a nine year old girl killed. I just have a hard time believing it. It's possible, but again, I'm more inclined to believe that this is shifting blame. And Theresa has her own motive for saying that this could have happened if she was involved, and then the detective could also have an underlying motivation.
So another individual who was pushed forward as a potential suspect was Paul's cousin, Herbert Michael Hines. Herbert happened Paul's original partner when he started Tough Movers, but sometime during the late nineteen eighties, he was arrested for aggravated robbery and received a six year prison sentence. After he was released, Herbert went back to work at Tough Movers, but the story goes that Paul caught him stealing money from the
business and cut Herbert out. In February of two thousand and eight, reporter Jessica Centers published an extensive article about this story for the Denver based publication Westward, titled a cold Case Frozen in Time. When Herbert was asked to provide comment from the article, his response was quote, I quit the business because I was making more money in the stock market. I don't know anything about this case,
kiss my asso. It's not clear to me if Paul and Herbert had a major falling out, But if they did, I can see why Herbert would seem like a promising suspect, especially when you considered that he was a convicted criminal who had served time in prison. But unfortunately, other than the brief reference to him in the aforementioned Westward article, there's really not all that much information out there about Herbert.
We don't know if he was in the Denver area on the night that disappearances took place, or if he had an alibi, And even if he still had a grudge against Paul, wouldn't have been strong enough to drive him to murder a nine year old girl. And once again, the biggest issue with any theories involving Herbert or drug dealers is that Paul was not originally scheduled to work on February the seventh, So could any of these people have known he would show up to Tough Movers at
that particular time on a Sunday night. Sure they could have been following Paul around and had no qualms about murdering his daughter. But wouldn't it still be easier to kill Paul at a time when he didn't have an adult male like Lorenzo with him. Why put yourself into a situation where you'll be required to get rid of three bodies rather than one. Now I get the impression this crime was committed by someone who had intimate knowledge of Paul's routine as well as their own motive to wat them.
Gone, yeah, I tend to agree with you. And as far as Herbert goes okay. So he ended up going to jail in the eighties. Even if we say it's like the late eighties, he gets the six year prison sentence, he comes out and works for Tough Movers, and then he's let go because he's stealing money potentially. So if that is the case, we're then to believe that what he waits like four years and decides to exact his revenge.
I mean, even if say he served he was convicted in nineteen eighty nine, served a six year prison sentence, and went to work for Tough Movers for a short period of time, we still have a couple year lull here where he isn't working for Tough Movers, so when things are fresh, if he was fired or let go from the business, I would be more inclined to believe that he would take a drastic step, like, you know,
killing Paul. But I also have a hard time believing that he's going to put himself in a position where he's going to kill Sarah, you know what I mean. It's just because she's also related to him. It doesn't seem like a good fit for me. I can see how they could point a finger at him and raise him as a potential suspect, but it's not really connecting for me personally.
I have a feeling that if he had not said kiss my ass to the reporter, then maybe you wouldn't have been mentioned in the article, because that does sound reasonable. If he says that, yeah, I quit the business because I was making more money in the stock market, and if that is true, that he has no discernible motive to kill Paul. But because he acted so rudely to the reporter, she started thinking, Okay, he's very defensive here. Maybe we should mention him and look at him as a potential suspect.
I mean, if you were being accused of killing a nine year old girl, you'd probably be pretty defensive too, So I can empathize with him from that perspective. And especially if you're being bothered by reporters and being asked these questions that you don't want to have to address. It doesn't mean that you're guilty. He doesn't mean you're hiding something. You may just not want to be involved
in what they're doing. And so he takes maybe not the classiest approach and tells the reporter to kiss his ass. But I can almost understand where he's coming from.
There, definitely, and considering that there are much more promising suspects in this case rather than Herbert, That's why I'm inclined to believe that this is a red herring and he was not involved. So this finally leads us to Teresa donnovan, and I can definitely understand why she has
garnered more suspicion than anyone else. While she agreed to do interviews in the years following the disappearances and use them as an outlet to push forward the theory that the Trio were murdered by drug dealers, she eventually decided to shy away from the spotlight and has not talked
about the case publicly in quite some time. I find it unusual that she flat out admitted that she failed a polygraph in one of her interviews, and while I obviously don't put much stock into the results, this detail has never been publicly confirmed by law enforcement, and it's very rare that you'll find potential suspects who take the initiative to reveal something like that on their own accord.
Teresa also insisted that she told police the identities of the individuals responsible for this crime, but they wouldn't listen to her. Law enforcements never named Teresa or anyone else from her family as a suspect or person of interest. So if they have their own feelings about who is responsible for this crime, they've kept them to themselves. But
let's look at the timeline of events. According to Sharon, Paul called her on Friday to inform her that he was planning to kick Teresa out of their house on Sunday night, So it seems like one hell of a coincidence that he would happen to go missing before this took place. It sounds like Paul reached the end of his rope with Teresa, but it's still been keeping her around for the sake of her son, Paul Roger, even though Paul wasn't even one hundred percent certain that he
was the boy's father. However, if Paul had been able to prove his paternity while he was still alive, he likely would have sought full custody of the child, and given Teresa's alleged shortcomings as a mother, there's a good chance at the court would have ruled in his favor. When you consider these circumstances, Teresa definitely had a motive
for wanting Paul gone. Jerry Biby also claimed that Teresa told them she had gone to Tough Movers on the night the three victims went missing, but she asked Jerry not to inform the police. If true, then that's a major red flag. And while I'm wondering why Teresa would even admit to something like this. Perhaps she was paranoid that some eyewitnesses may have seen her at Tough Movers that night and needed to come up with a story
to account for it. Like we mentioned earlier, a witness reported hearing a woman's scream near Tough Movers that night, so could it have been Teresa. But even if Teresa committed these murders, she was on disability at the time due to issues with arthritis, so it seems unlikely that she would have been capable of covering up the crime and disposing of the bodies all by herself. So if she needed assistance, who would be a better person to turn to than a family member?
Oh? Absolutely, I think that if Teresa was the one who's responsible, or what the architect of this, which I'm more inclined to believe that she is the best suspect, then she would have had to have roped in either Bobby Joe or her brother Tom or both of them. And then, if we are going along with the theory that Lorenzo was also held that gunpoint and used as labor to help Paul bodies, helped dispose of bodies, and then was killed at a later date in another location,
then that all checks out for me. But I do find it really interesting that Theresa would mention that she was at Tough Movers the night before. And I think you're probably right that she must have been worried that somebody saw her, and so she's trying to cover her butt by telling Jerry and then just kind of hedging her bets. If law enforcement points out that she was there or there was a witness, she can be like, oh, I was there, but it was innocent, like, look, I
told Jerry about it. If I was guilty, then why would I tell Jerry type of a thing.
But it's also weird that she would specifically tell Jerry, don't tell tell anyone that I told you this, even though she's trying to cover herself. So if she had just said I was there and came up with an excuse for it, then Jerry would have thought, oh, that's unusual. Maybe she left before something happened. But the fact that she's saying don't tell the police obviously raise red flags with them.
Yeah, I suppose you could look at it two ways. It could be one of those scenarios where it's like, I don't want to place myself at the scene of a crime. Even though I'm innocent, I know that it looks super sketchy and they don't have any proper suspects, so I don't want the police to point the finger
at me. So it comes down to her having something to hide, but not necessarily being involved in the crime, which I don't believe is true, but I think there, of course is a possibility, and that would be why she'd say to Jerry, like, don't say anything. But I think it's more likely that she's just putting it out there, trying to hedge her bets if the police bring it up.
It's like, oh, I mentioned it to Jerry, and she thinks that she's being smart by saying to Jerry, don't say anything, so then she can just like pull that out at a later date if need be. E. Jerry's like kind of her alibi witness, But she didn't really take into account how sketchy it made her look that you don't want to come forward with this information, and we've got a missing nine year old girl and Paul's missing, and you don't seem to want to give police all
of the information. That in and of itself is odd.
Yeah, Like even if by chance she was innocent, she went to tough movers and then left before anything bad happened to the victims. They'd still want to speak to her to see if she saw or heard anything unusual. She might have some useful information. And I also wonder if she was trying to be too clever for her own good when she publicly admitted that she flunked a lie detector test, because usually it's the reverse, where like people will say interviews, oh I passed a polygrapt and sometimes
law enforcement won't confirm or deny it. But he or she's saying that she flunked one and law enforcement won't confirm or deny it. So maybe she's using reverse psychology, saying, hey, why would I admit to something like that publicly if I was guilty.
I don't know if you watched the show The Traders, but it's always like is it a bluff? Is it a double bluff? Are they lying? Is it like this is such an obvious move? Are they doing this because they think that we would never believe that a trader would actually do that. That's what this feels like right now. If you're saying, like, okay, she said that she publicly flunk to polygraphs, Like, I just feel like, don't even
address it. Don't even talk about the polygraph If you failed it or if you passed it, you're going to have people that are going to start picking that apart. I just think, like, what would be your motivation in putting forward that the test says that you're lying, even though we know they're not reliable and that they're detecting physiological changes not lies. I think it is an odd move.
It is, Yeah, So it just sounds like she was just trying to use some sort of like traders type of thing, some reverse psychology, and she thought maybe it would make her look less suspicious, but obviously that didn't work. So of course, there's also the fact that Teresa's sister, Bobby Joe, just happened to be living with Lorenzo at
the time he went missing. There haven't been many details shared about the nature of Bobby Joe and Lorenzo's relationship, but since it's been reported that Lorenzo and his wife Misha were talking about a reconciliation, I'm guessing his relationship with Bobby Joe may not have had much of a
long term future. When Lorenzo went missing, Bobby Joe made a cryptic remark about how she knew he wasn't coming back, and it does not sound like she participated in the search effort for him and Bobby Joe also took the step of boxing up all the belongings for Lorenzo's son, Josh and essentially kicking him out of her house, which is a pretty cool thing to do to a teenage
boy whose father has gone missing. Her actions seem all the more bizarre when you consider that the authorities were still treating Paul and Sarah's disappearances as a parental abduction at the time and were adamant that no foul play had occurred. So how could Bobby Joe be so certain that Lorenzo was never coming back. So we have a pair of sisters whose spouses vanished at the same time,
and they both seemed rather nonchalant about the situation. I'm not saying Bobby Joe was directly involved in these disappear spearances, but if what or more if her siblings were responsible, she likely knew what happened and kept her mouth shut.
Yeah, I'll definitely agree on that point. I think that Bobby Joe's actions are incredibly suspicious. The fact that Lorenzo's son is essentially kicked out and she knows that he's not going to be coming back, that speaks to somebody who has intimate knowledge of what went on. In my opinion, that's what it speaks to. I don't really think you can read it in any other way unless you're thinking, oh, she thinks that he left and you know, went back to his wife or something, but the teenager would be
informed of that. I don't think that Lorenzo would be returning to his wife and the kid would just somehow be left with Bobby Joe, So that doesn't make any sense. I think it speaks to her knowledge, and I think that both Teresa and Bobby Joe have knowledge about what happened to Sarah and Paul and Lorenzo, and I just don't see any other way to interpret their bizarre actions after the fact.
Yeah, I'd be curious to know if Josh the son is able to confirm Bobby Joe's whereabouts, because I do know that he was living there at the time, and that after Lorenzo failed to return home, Josh spent the next few days staying with his mother before he returned to find that all of his belongings have been boxed up.
So if Josh is able to verify that he was there that night and that Bobby Joe was home the entire time, then that would probably rule out her having any direct involvement in the murders and the cover up, But it also shows that she probably still has guilty knowledge of what happened and is remaining silent because she
doesn't want to implicate her siblings. Of course, suspicion about Teresa and Bobby Joe only increases when you look at the actions of their brother, Tom Donovan, who is currently serving a twenty eight year prison sentence for attempting to murder their mother, even if you discount that Tom displayed a lot of unstable behavior following the disappearances, such as phoning up Sharon and telling her that Paul and Sarah had been shot in the head and that the same
thing was going to happen to her months earlier. Paul had also fired Tom from Tough Movers, and if you look at the timeline, it appears that Lorenzo was hired to replace him, so it sounds like Tom may have had a personal grudge against both men and a motive to harm them, even if Paul wasn't having relationship issues with his sister Broh. We know Teresa could have enlisted Tom to a sister with the situation, but did not anticipate that he would go so far as to murder
three people. In fact, if Teresa was present in the Tough Movers parking lot that night, it was the source of the scream that the witnesses heard. Perhaps she was left genuinely shocked by her brother's outburst of violence. Yes, there is no direct evidence linking Tom to this crime, but if anyone unstable enough to stab his own mother five times would have been capable of shooting a nine year old girl.
Yeah, I think that as far as suspects go, Tom is our best suspect. Like you said, he's got an axe to grind. Lorenzo could have been the person who was hired to replace him he was fired by Paul.
And then you have Teresa, who we don't know the exact nature of their relationship, how close they were, but it seems like if you got both of your sisters who you feel like have been wronged by these men, these men who you already don't like that could be motivation enough, especially if you're thinking that maybe if Paul is killed, then some of his estate will be going to Paul Roger. And who knows if Teresa promised Tom some kind of monetary reward if he was involved and helped her with this.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well, is that that would be one of his motivations for like committing murder. But we also know that Sarah was not originally planning to go with Paul on on these moving jobs that day and that the only reason he had to take her along was because his mother, Sharon was in Minnesota and couldn't watch over her. So maybe Teresa's thinking to herself, Oh, well, I don't want to hurt a nine year old child, but I'm willing to kill Paul, and Tom is willing
to kill a Rarenzo. Possibly is revenge and if she's present and then to her brother suddenly pulls out a gun and shoots Sarah, this nine year old girl. I can definitely understand why Teresa would be horrified by that and thinking that he just took things too far and she could have been the source of the scream that all the witnesses heard. So the crime is a bit of a weird contradiction because it simultaneously comes off as
both professional and sloppy. On one hand, the responsible parties did a very thorough job of disposing of the victim's bodies and cleaning the interior of the moving truck, as well as moving Paul and Lorenzo's vehicles and wiping them both clean of fingerprints. But on the other hand, they did a pretty half fast job of cleaning the exterior of the truck and left behind blood evidence and a
scout fragment. It makes the whole situation with the police investigation all the more frustrating, because if they had not done such a half fast job following through on this and actually collected evidence immediately, then they may have been
able to build a case against someone. At the very least, I get the impression that detect this who worked on this case in recent years have done a much more professional job, and they likely have their own ideas about what happened, but just lack the evidence to make an arrest. If Tom Donovan was the individual who committed these murders, then at the very least he is going to be locked up for the next two decades and won't harm
anyone else. But that does not offer much comfort for the victims' families when their bodies have yet to be found and no one has ever been formally charged with this crime. And even if Tom is guilty, I'm sure he didn't act alone, and there may be others out there, such as the siblings, who know exactly what happened and are keeping their mouths shut.
That's what I'm thinking too. I think Tom is the best aspect, and I don't think that he would have done this of his own accord. I think that he would have had to have been persuaded by Teresa or Teresa and Bobby Joe or some combination, and went ahead and did these things. But I agree to your point that it looks both sloppy and professional. I think that how professional it looks is based on how awful the investigation was initially, and so it looks more professional than
it actually was. They left behind so much evidence. Yes, the bodies were disposed of in a way that they weren't found insofar as we know who knows. I mean, they could have been disposed of in different states, in different places and separate from each other, and they could be sitting as John or Jane does somewhere and we just don't know that information. So there's a lot that
we don't know. And one thing that I really would like to have more information on, and I hope that they come forward once they've done all the testing, is the DNA that they found. Because you said that the current investigators who are working on the case seem a lot more dedicated to it, and we've seen it over and over and over. You get a fresh set of eyes, people with new priorities, they have less to cover up for, like such as the past situation where it seemed like
there was a lot of butt covering. You have people stepping in completely fresh. Their motivations are different and so the results are different.
Yeah, and Tom Donovan, he is in prison for attempted murder, so I have a reason to assume that his DNA is in the system. So if his DNA is found at the murder scene, he could easily be matched to him. I guess maybe the only issue potential obstacle is that Teresa was Paul's girlfriend, so she may have visited the lot on her own accord, and Tom did work there on a previous occasion. So if they found his DNA, I wonder if he could say, oh, that was from there,
from like many months earlier before I was fired. So I'd like to think that they have the DNA in a specific spot where they could say, Okay, if your DNA is there, you definitely committed the crime. So that's why I hope that this new lead does eventually go somewhere and that they could figure out who committed these murders. Since there are three victims in this story, that means that a ton of people have suffered these past twenty
seven years. Paulskiba's parents have both passed away, but he still has a surviving brother and a number of friends, such as Jerry Biby, who are still searching for answers. Zizo Shivers's two children have had to grow up without their father, and most heartbreakingly, Michelle Russell lost her own daughter and has had to live with the knowledge that Sarah was likely murdered over something she had nothing to
do with. And another victim in this story is Paul Roger, who was still a baby when all this went down. But regardless of whether or not Paul Skiba was actually his biological father. It seems clear that Paul was going to do everything he could to help him. Paul Roger would now be twenty seven years old, and even though he has been raised by someone who is suspected of being involved in this crime, I hope he still managed
to have a decent life. I definitely believe that there are people out there who know exactly what happened to these three missing victims, and all it would take to break this case wide open is for the right person to come forward. So if you happen to have any information about the disappearances of Paul Skiba, Sarah Skiba and Lorenzo Shiver, please contact the Westminster Police Department at three
zero three six five eight six four three zero. That's three zero three six five eight six four three zero, And if you wish to remain anonymous, you could also call Metro Denver Crime Stoppers at seven to zero nine one three seven eight sixty seven. That's seven two zero nine one three seven eight sixty seven. Jewels any final thoughts on this case.
This is such an interesting case. The idea that we've got three missing people and that their bodies have never been found. We've got one really good suspect with Teresa. We've got another with Tom, and then Bobby Joe's kind of a question mark, but it seems like there's a potential that she was definitely complicit or had guilty knowledge about this crime. And they're the ones that have the
most motivation all of the alternate suspects and alternate theories. Yes, there's a possibility, is it, you know, the drug theory. I think there's a very low probability, but anything is possible.
I just really wish for the families that we could get that DNA evidence, push forward and get some more answers on this case, and then maybe if it comes down to trying Tom and maybe Teresa, maybe Bobby Joe for their involvement in the crime, then maybe we'll get the answers as to where the bodies are so that they can bring them home to their loved ones.
Yeah. I've seen that in so many missing persons case where if enough times passes, their loved ones say that we don't even care that much anymore about getting the perpetrators to face justice. We just want to recover our loved one's remains and give them a proper burial. And I could definitely see someone like Michelle feeling that way about her missing child. And at least if Tom Donovan was responsible, they can take comfort in knowing that he
is currently in prison for another crime. But yeah, I remember reading about this case on the Charlie Project many years ago before I even started the Trail Went Cold, where the Path Went Chili, and just being gobsmacked about how bad this investigation was and think that, Wow, I can't believe that there was just so much evidence available at the outset and they just chose to completely ignore it when they could have potentially solved this crime almost immediately.
And here we are twenty seven years later, and we still don't have any conclusive answers. We have a number of people who have suspicions about what happened, and there are some very promising suspects, but because we have no bodies and no conclusive evidence linking him to the crime, it has still gone on solved for all this time.
And I definitely believe that all the other theories push forward about drug dealers or Paul's cousin being responsible are red herrings, as I just think it's too much of a coincidence that Paul would happened to go missing on the very same night that he was going to kick Teresa out of his house, and she conveniently got to remain there for several months afterwards because he was no
longer around to enforce it. And I do believe that Paul was the intended target and that Sarah and Lorenzo were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the perpetrators just got very, very lucky that the
original police investigators were so incompetent. But like I mentioned, even though I do believe there's a good chance that Tom Donovan was the trigger man and he is in prison, there are still people out there who probably at least have knowledge about what happened or were complicit in the cover up, and can offer so much comfort to the victims' loved ones if they come clean and reveal the
location of the victim's remains. And that's why I hope that this recent DNA testing that they're conducting will eventually lead to a resolution, so that about brings an end to this latest edition of The Pathway Chile about the disappearances of Paul Sciba, Sarah Sciba, and Lorenzo Shiver. So join us next week, when we present a new series about a new case.