Karyn Kupcinet Pt. Two

Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two of our series on the unexplained death of Karen coups in It. Robin, do you want to catch

everyone up on what we talked about in our previous episode. Well, this case took place in November of nineteen sixty three and Karen coups in It was a twenty two year old actress from an influential family in Chicago who was now living in West Hollywood and it had gotten some bit parts on film and TV, but she was in a bad place because she had a relationship with another actor named Andrew Pride, who did not want to have an exclusive relationship.

And when she became pregnant with his child's her friends took her down to Mexico to have an illegal abortion. And it seems like Karen's mental health was crashing

because she was on a lot of medication. She was acting very strangely on the last night that her friends saw her alive at like a dinner party, And all we know is that when Karen returned to her apartment, she had watched TV with two of her friends, who claimed that she went into her bedroom and appeared to fall asleep, So They walked out later that night, and this was the last time she was confirmed to be alive. But after not hearing from her for a couple of days, her friends went to her

apartment and discovered Karen's new, decomposing body lying on the couch. At first, they figured her death might have been a suicide or an accidental drug overdose, but the coroner discovered that her hioid bone was missing, so he pretty much ruled that she had been strangled to death and was the victim of foul play. They would go over a bunch of different angles. They looked at her spouse, Andrew Pryne, who had spoken with her on the night that

she was last confirmed to be alive. They looked at another neighbor of hers named David Lang, who had apparently joked about killing her and had a habit of drunkenly wandering into other people's apartments in the middle of the night. But

they couldn't find any definitive evidence pointing to anyone. But the strangest angle occurred a few years later, when Karen's death was somehow linked to the jfk assassination because she died only a few days after the assassination took place, and there was a report of an anonymous woman from California who called an operator and accurately predicted that the president was going to be killed in a number of minutes.

And of course her prediction turned out to be true because JFKA was assassinated in Dallas right around that time period, and years later, a conspiracy theories pushed forward the idea that Karen cups in it was the anonymous choler and that her father had because he had once been acquainted with Jack Ruby in Chicago many years earlier. Had I learned about the assassination, told Karen about it, and when she tried to earn the authorities, they had her murdered in order to

silence her. But of course her family completely denounced this idea and thought it was a ridiculous conspiracy theory. But regardless of Karen's death has still remained unsolved sixty years later, and regardless of whether or not it was connected to the JFK assassination, we have no idea who was responsible for her death. So anyway, even though Karen's death has attentative connection to the Kennedy assassination, the

assassination is not actually the main subject of this episode. If you go online and delve into the conspiracy theories, you'll find many lists of so called mystery deaths, as dozens of people connected to the assassination supposedly died under mysterious circumstances in the ensuing years. You'll often see Karen Cups in its name at the top of these lists because she died only six days after JFK was killed. So, aside from Lee Harvey Oswald, you can infer that Karen was the

first loose end in this conspiracy which needed to be tied up. Well, I have to say that the word thin does not even begin to describe the connection between Karen and the Kennedy assassination. In fact, I'd say the word emaciated would even be too generous. So let's try to sum up this whole so called conspiracy. Earth cupson it and Jack Ruby had supposedly been acquaintances in

Chicago sometime during the nineteen forties. But even though Ruby moved to Dallas in nineteen forty seven, and there's no indication that he stayed in touch with Cup at all during the next sixteen years, Ruby decided to tell him about his key role in one of the biggest conspiracies of all time. How exactly would that conversation go? Hey, Cup, long time no see. By the way, the President of the United States is going to be assassinated soon,

and I'm in charge of assassinating the assassin before he can talk. And then, instead of telling the authorities about this, Kupp decides to tell his daughter

Karen, who becomes very perturbed. But instead of warning someone who actually has the power to prevent the assassination from happening, Karen decides to travel over fifty miles from her home in West Hollywood to Oxnard in order to call some random switchboard operator about ten to twenty minutes before the fsassination is supposed to occur.

The person responsible somehow finds out about this and decides to murder Karen in order to convince her father to stay quiet instead of, you know, killing Cup, the guy who spilled the beans to begin with. Kind of odd that these conspirators supposedly killed over one hundred people to cover their tracks but never went after the guy, who was a highly respected calumnist and TV personality had had the power to potentially blow the lid off the whole thing. That's the part

that doesn't make any sense. If you're going to go after someone, why his daughter? How would you even know that she was aware of this information? But no one close to her could tell you that she knew it. I mean, after the President's killed, after Karen's killed, If I knew something, don't you think I'd say like something, Yeah, I had heard rumbling of that. I didn't really think anything was going to be true. I didn't know he was going to get killed, but I knew that Ruby

didn't like him. Whatever. I mean, no one could link Karen to this. No one can link her dad to this. And again, like we said on the last episode, if I get word that all of a sudden, someone of high power is going to be executed, the last person I think I'm going to confide in is my daughter, much less my daughter

who's struggling, Like did he tell his wife? Like that's who? I might tell my husband that information, or I might tell another high end business associate who's also involved with the mafia or people in the circle, But I'm not going to go to my daughter. It just seems like a really big

stretch. And like you said, Robin, how many people are we willing to take out but not the individuals that supposedly had the most information the way you just laid it out, Robin, it's like, well you put it that way, it just seems that this is so incredibly unlikely, Like all of these ridiculous things would have to be in alignment, like this loose connection to Jack Ruby from fifteen years ago, and then somehow Ruby's going to tell

him all about it. Like it is just so far reaching that we would think that all of these things would have to come into alignment for Karen to be the person that did the calling. And we also have to consider Karen's state of mind. Karen could barely get through a dinner properly without seeming really off, But yet we're going to think that she's cognizant enough to plan ahead

to drive fifty miles away to Oxnard. The logistics don't make sense because she seems to be getting real time updates from an individual that allows her to change the time she was on Pacific time. So she originally said the President's going to die at like ten ten, which would be twelve Central time in Dallas, but then she changes it to ten thirty, which would have been twelve

thirty in Dallas, which is when Kennedy was actually killed. Yeah, so I just have a hard time believing that somehow Karen's going to go all that way and she doesn't have a cell phone, there is no internet, so how would these real time updates be coming into her, Like who would be

feeding her that information? Just seems incredibly unlikely. Yeah, Like researching the JFK assassination, you're going to find all these mystery death lists where they say, oh, these hundred of people were killed because they knew something about the Kennedy assassination. But they're the most tentative connections. Like I remember reading one where the assistant prosecutor at Jack Ruby's trial died of a heart attack shortly after

the trial took place. So of course he had to be murdered because he knew too much. But it turns out, oh, he was like a fifty five year old man who was obese and a heavy smoker and a heavy drinker, So of course he's going to die of a heart attack. There's

nothing mysterious about it. It's not a conspiracy, sort of like with King Tut's tomb, right, Like so many of the different things that were like linked to a curse, so many of the deaths, Like some of them you might like stop him, pause and go, oh, that's kind of weird, But a lot of them, it's like they died like twenty years later, and it's like that, are we still connecting this to King Tut's

tomb. The person who first attempted to link the Cups in It family to the Kennedy assassination was conspiracy theorist Penn Jones, even though the real link is that Cup apparently knew Jack Ruby two decades before the assassination took place. I mean, I'm sure Ruby knew a lot of people throughout his life, but that doesn't mean he's going to tell all of them that he's involved in a

plot to kill the president. In his book Forgive My Grief, Jones wrote that Karen made her anonymous phone call days before the assassination, when the records clearly show the call happened the very same morning. So that's already a major red flag about his research skills. Now, I will admit that I do find the whole story about the anonymous female caller who predicted Kennedy's death to be very intriguing. I'm pretty sure the incident did happen, and the switchboard operators

were telling the truth about what they heard. What it seems like everybody's initial impression was that the caller was nothing more than a mentally disturbed woman who probably had no actual knowledge of the assassination, and it was just a bizarre coincidence that she made a wild prediction which somehow came true. But I just don't see how any reasonable person could possibly believe the caller was Karen Cup's in it,

especially since both operators seemed certain it was a middle aged woman. Oxnard is over fifty miles away from Karen's apartment in West Hollywood, and I just don't see why she would travel that distance and wait until the last minute to warn anybody about what was going to happen, not to mention that she would have to travel fifty miles back to West Hollywood before making another two hour drive

to Palm Springs later that night with Andrew Prine and two other friends. Yes, Prine said that Karen was pretty upset about the assassination, but so was the majority of the country. There's a difference between being upset because the president was murdered and being upset because you knew about it beforehand and were unable to

prevent it. So logically, I think we can completely close the book on Karen's death being connected to the Kennedy assassination and explore the case from other an well, I mean, I remember being a teenager and be enough that Heath Leder died, you know, and it's like you know, and then you have like Brittany Murphy and the like. I mean, like people feel like they know these celebrities and John F. Kennedy was he was a celebrity and

the president. I mean, so, so that is not abnormal to me that she was so sad, And that's one of those things just like for us, it's where were you on nine to eleven? You ask our parents

where were you when JFK was killed? And that was a defining moment in people's life, just like nine to eleven, two thousand and one, when we wake up and we go like, oh my god, our world's forever changed and our country's forever changed because of this, this devastating attack, and the person who represents your country was killed that day on when JFK was assassinated.

He was a beloved human who was supposed to make these amazing promises come true, and he brought with it this fresh attitude right that really probably would have changed history. And he was murdered. So I don't think saying someone was super upset would indicate anything other than she was super upset that JFK had been killed. It's I don't know. This is just a very bizarre stretch when you start talking about all of the elements that have to line up.

The only thing that I think is beyond crazy amazing is this call where the girl, like you said, predicts the time he's going to die. He's going to die at twelve ten when his motorcade passes a certain spot. Well, then she's talking to someone on the phone or dialing someone on the phone and says, wait a minute, there's been a delay. I'm actually going to predict another time now. And both those times should have been accurate had

everything actually followed through. So unless those call operators are just making that up, which that would be wild as well, someone knew something. Do we know in the sixties did you keep these kinds of calls? Law Ondoor recorded, How did we get this information just their word, I think, just

their word. Like I'm sure there was a phone record of that a call actually took place, but they were able to determine that it was that it originated from Oxnard, but I'm not sure they would have recorded calls back in nineteen sixty three, So there really isn't a recording in existence of this woman's voice. But I can tell you. I mentioned in our last episode that I went to the True Crime Podcast Festival in Dallas and decided to pay a

visit to the JFK Museum. And while I was there, I actually bought a book called Case Closed, written by a journalist named Gerald Posner, and it pretty there's a very effective job at debunking all the conspiracies surrounding the JFK assassination. So controversial opinion here. I now believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted

alone and there was no conspiracy. And that's why I do not believe at all that Jack Ruby or Earth Cups and It or Karen Cups and IT were had any involvement in JFK's assassination in this conspiracy, Robin, get ready for hate mail. I'm sure I will, yes, Oh my gosh, no, it is really interesting when you look at that case specifically. I mean, anytime you start going down a rabbit hole. Like Man, I've watched the History Channel so many times and watched on anything anything, I walk away

convinced every dime I ended show. I'm like, Holy held the World's end In whoa Aliens Live among Us? I mean, these people can link some pretty amazing things to to something you didn't really think about, to make it quite believable. And I do think, like you guys were saying, there are instances where scenarios occur and it happens to be this kind of random luck, bad luck, whatever's going on, where items seem to be linked and

they just simply aren't. They're correlated with something, They're slightly related, but we strapplate quite a bit from it. Karen's not related to the JFK murder. I just there's there's no way, No, she definitely isn't. And I don't know. I'm I'm lean like sixty percent towards there was no conspiracy. I think that certain things become almost part of the public consciousness movies like

JFK. It becomes like this is the real thing. It's sort of how Milton's Paradise Lost or Dante's Divine Comedy like the Infernal Part become like how we're informed of Hell when really their works of fiction, But people believe that hell is exactly how it was described in those books, if you're a believer in such things. So I think that there are forms of art that can kind of seep into the public consciousness and make us believe that this is absolutely true.

And you get really famous corners who are working on the case, lots of really like didn't like doctor Henry Lee work on who else Zero Waxed worked on it? Yeah, And so you get people like that, and we

trust these individuals. They are the very top of their game and they are so highly respected, and so I think it is really easy for a lot of us to go, well, if they're saying that that's the way that happened, or have they believe that there was a conspiracy, then I'm going to trust in what they're saying, because all of these other people have a vested interest aka like you know, the government in saying that it didn't happen.

And I think there can be many government conspiracies, and the government can act against politicians. But I just don't necessarily think that that is the case with Jfki. Okay, I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but have you guys ever watched like, okay, so these let's say, a true crime show, or when you see these really well respected people sitting around the

table talking about, quote who killed Brittany Murphy or whatever. When you see these people, do you think there's any potential that, just like an expert witness at a trial who's getting paid to testify on some behalf right, that they'll say whatever scripted for them for celebrityism and things like that, because, believe it or not, I've quote recorded a reality television thing and there's nothing

real about it. Like I'm reading facts from a script and going, I hope this is true, you know, like I'll say it because you're going to pay me for it. But I often wonder when I watch these amazingly renowned people, I'm like, m at some point, have they gone to a place where they get paid to say whatever the show wants them to say.

I wonder that with people like you know, Joe Rogan and stuff, where he has an incredibly popular podcast, but he really pushes things, and I often wonder does he actually believe this or does he just do this for the money, for the listens, for the ads. And a lot of the information is quite incendiary and very controversial, but you push that envelope.

You people like that, and like Alex Jones, and I think you can have the same thing with expert witnesses because it's sort of like whatever's going to get you the most attention, and so I think the people are fallible. We can't always trust everybody just because they have the credentials. They are human

beings at the end of the day. I feel like it's so easy to get kind of conned into that as a as a professional and someone who says like whoa, I keep getting these big paychecks and I keep getting featured on these shows, and if I'll do these more controversial cases and I'll say inflammatory things or I'll kind of make these wild statements, I'll kind of become known

as that expert. And I don't know, It's always interesting to me because I literally every show I watch, I will walk away going, WHOA, they convinced me that that is a possibility. And then I'll watch a show that does a one eighty on that idea and it completely slams it in the face. And I believe that one until I rewatch the other one, do you, So it's like, yeah, that certainly applies with JFK because you'll

find both pro and anti consery documentaries and books about it. So it all depends on much you read, interpret and what I read last, Like, just show me what I read last, because it's fascinating, you know, And they do such a convicted testimony of what they believed happen, and they show you such powerful correlations and related elements that make your mind go, well, it is possible, and now it starts to become more probable the longer

I listened to it. It's just very interesting. That was my sorry that it's my divergent conversation. It's a good point because I think that correlations and tenuous connections, if we hear enough of them, we start to believe that, of course these are related and of course there's something meaningful here, because

our human brains are always looking for that connection. So I think that is really easy to be blindsided by individuals who may have invested interest in framing a certain narrative we look at things like what was that documentary Robin on John Benet, and it was like very slanted towards like her brother killed her yea, And yes, people have been very critical of the way that they've framed everything, especially looking back years later, the position that they took and how firm

they were in their belief. And there was a lawsuit over that too from the Ramsey family, so a lot of people have thought, well, maybe this conclusion wasn't as believable as they tried to paint it out to be. So really, when you eliminate the JFKA conspiracy theories, this is a case which showcases an awful lot of warning signs that the victim either died by suicide

or accidentally. On our last episode, we discussed the odd rambling handwritten notes found in Karen's apartment, and I think this particular sentence is pretty telling. Quote my figures fat and will never be the way my mother wants it. Even though Karen's father was by all accounts a very well liked and well respected man, and Karen seemed to have a good relationship with them, the same

could not be said about her mother, Essie Cups. In it, she was known for being a loud, obnoxious, and foul mouthed woman, and ever since Karen was a child, Essie gave off the impression of being a stage mum who wanted her daughter to become a big star. Essie pushed Karen to break into acting, but the problem is that she wasn't overly talented. That's not to say Karen was a bad actress per se, but she had

a rather limited range and nothing about her really stood out. Because she came for an influential family, Karen was able to get a lot of meetings with prominent people both on Broadway and in Hollywood, but she rarely ever got substandard roles. Even though she was getting some parts on television, her acting career wasn't exactly setting the world on fire, and it was clear that she was

feeling immense pressure to live up to her mother's wishes. Like those notes described, Essie was obsessed with her daughter's weight and introduced her to crash dieting and diet pills at age thirteen. It was clear that Karen never thought her weight or looks were good enough, and at her mother's encouragement, she even got some plastic surgery on her chin, nose, ears, and eyes. When you look at the circumstances, it's easy to see how Karen would end up

using diet pills and other prescription drugs. That is so heartbreaking. I think about my baby girl and my bonus babies and thinking about if my world centered around them needing to be something so I could feel like I'm something and pressuring them to say I don't know, I'm just the exact opposite. Like Ray comes to me and says like I feel embarrassed that I have a gap in my teeth because of my braces, or I feel like I'm not pretty, or I'm too skinny, or I'm too tall or these kinds of things.

I'm like the opposite where I'm like, You're perfect, You're so great, right, Like I mean to know that so many people have family members who are the reason they so questioned themselves, they so hate who they are. And for Karen, I don't even know that she really had this quote desire to chase this dream. It's like she is one of these child stars who's being crafted into you will do this path. I need you to be something

in this realm so that we matter right and that we're important. And just like many many people you'll see in the industry, you go, oh, their fathers, who, Oh, they're uncles who okay, because they're not the most talented. They're not someone who may you believe their character or cry and laugh in these kinds of things. But there's somebody it's a privilege. It's the name that gets thrown around where someone of immense talent who doesn't have

that foothold may never get an audition. So I feel sad for Karen and her mother here because you can tell her mother wasn't in a happy space, or she would be celebrating the woman and the little girl that Karen was and is, and whoever she was would have been enough. And for Karen, she needed that. You could tell she desperately needed that, and that means something was lacking for her mom too, that her mom was likely struggling with

similar demons that Karen was dealing with. So man, just sad, just very very sad for both women. I think Karen's mom is what we would call today an almond mom, right because she's somebody that doesn't understand how damaging her behavior can be on her daughter. And Karen will be what we would call today a NEPO baby. And I don't mean that in like a derogatory way, just that the fact that her parents, and you know, her father's name, and the influence that they had opened a lot of doors for

Karen. But we also have to wonder how much of that did Karen really truly want to do, and how much was her mother's influence or what her mother believed that she should be doing, Because when you're constantly rustling with your weight and you're trying to fit into a certain size, like, I know what it's like. I remember in my late teens early twenties I did modeling.

It. I remember what it felt like walking into the agency, having the modeling agent be like, you look fat, let me measure your hips, and then measuring my hips and they're thirty three inches, not even close. They're well within the normal realm of what models hips should be. But yet you get a complex over time when somebody's constantly telling you that, like you shouldn't eat, that you shouldn't do that. If you're a sensitive person,

you can internalize that, even more so when it's your mother. So I think that at this point, what Karen's hopes and dreams are come conflated with what her mother's hopes and dreams are, and what Karen's standard of beauty is has become her mother's standard of beauty that she seems to pushed upon her. And I think Ashley makes a great point that her mother is clearly dealing with a lot and she seems to be projecting it onto her daughter. And

who knows what the relationship she had with her mother was like. And I mean it, it's just really really sad, like you said, for both women. Okay, so not okay, So Jules, you're talking about your Yeah, I'm not laughing at your hips getting measured, but I'm laughing because when you said that, I went, oh my god. I was in college, walking across campus and I remember I had tried to do like modeling before, tried to do like fun things for a fashion place by my home.

But I've never been tiny. I've always had like, you know, a little bit of a bigger frame. And I was on college campus and his man called me over to one of his little tables at the green and he said, you are so beautiful, and I said, oh, thank you. You know, walking with my nerd backpack on, and he said, I really want you to come try to model for me. He's like, you would be the greatest plus size model. And I was like, oh, oh okay, and I okay, plus size models are stunning,

first of all, it's like one of my favorite things. But I'm not a big girl. I'm not a small girl, but I'm not a big girl. And he said what we could do is we would pin the clothes to you because you're a bigger person, but you're not quite the right size to be a plus size model, but you'd make a great plus size model. And I just remember, like I thought in that moment, I was like do I cry or laugh, hate myself, or just like think this

guy's an absolute idiot. And thank god I was in a space where like I was such a nerd that I just didn't care. So I started laughing and I was like, I think I'm gonna pass and I walked up. But man, I think about that still. I mean, at thirty nine years old, I think about this time when someone's like, you'd be a great plus size model, and here I am a size what ten, you

know, and I'm going, yeah, that's not okay. So the pressure they put on us now much less back in the sixties, where they're showing you what a beautiful woman looks like, you know, and I think we get skinny. Actually the beauty gets SKINNI or the older we're getting. And I'm grateful that now they're starting to show real women in ads. But for Karen, Karen would have been in a situation where she's going, not only are the is the industry abusing me. My mom is maybe subconsciously or not

consciously, but abusing me and telling me that I'm not enough. I don't think she wanted anything to do with this industry. I really don't. I'm so sorry that happened to you, Ash, that's awful. But honestly, at the time, in the two tens, if you were above a size six, you were considered to be plus sized, and they would be like,

oh, we'll just shoot it that way. Now plus size now it's a lot more open and inclusive, Like thank you Rihanna from really opening things up to everybody and making fashion reflective of the population, not just of a size two. But I remember, like when I used to do it, that was like, you know, mid two thousands, and it would be like, if you're not a size two, if you're fitting a size four, then you're doing life style modeling, so you couldn't do really runway.

Now it's a lot more flexible, but they would say if you're over size six, you're plus size, which is insanity. Like we know that that isn't true, but that was the toxic environment of the modeling agencies at the time. And this guy just sounds like he just really was creeping on you. You'd be a perfect plus size model, Like, and I always wonder about dudes on a campus walking up, I just want to take your picture, Like, oh, it was like Rodney alcohola but but no, that's

what I thought of the dating game. Yes, absolutely, now it's absolutely wild. I mean, look at our cartoon of the three of us, and look how skinny my neck is that our artist did. Clearly, I'm not a plus size mom. You're a beautiful, beautiful woman. I would love to be a I wouldn't care. I wouldn't care. I just I

teach people that my next two skinny on my picture. So shortly before her death, we have an account of Karen showing up at a dinner party held by her friends Mark and Marshaddard, who said she was clearly under the influence of something. Karen also shared a story about finding an abandoned baby on her doorstep, which turned out to be false. As odd as that story might sound, it's not hard to imagine, like we talked about in Part one,

why Karen dreamed it up. Remember, just four months earlier, Karen had traveled to Mexico to get an illegal abortion, and you can understand how she might have felt guilt ridden over this and perhaps concocted a fantasy story or dream about rescuing an abandoned baby as her way of dealing with the situation. It makes twisted sense that she would tell the story to Andrew Pryne, the father of her child, and the goddards who took her to Tijuana and paid

for her abortion. And of course, after Karen's death, there was a shocking revelation that she'd constructed threatening notes and sent them both to Andrew and herself. So she clearly couldn't deal with the fact that he wanted to date other

women and wouldn't have an exclusive relationship with her. It seems like she was treated like a object by him, though that she he was his person who really needed someone to want her, to love her, to value her, and it doesn't sound like she was shy about expressing her feelings towards him. She gets pregnant with his child, and honestly, that feeling would be like, oh my god, he loves me. He thinks I'm beautiful, he thinks I'm talented, and I'm safe with him, and now we're going to

start this family with a baby. And then he says, Hey, Karen, I wanted nothing to do with this as a long term, serious relationship. I do not want a family with you. I do not want to be exclusive with you. I just cannot imagine what that would feel like, and to be already dealing with other issues as well. So he just sounds like he used her when she was convenient he was there. So it's almost like Karen is caught up in this kind of constructed dream of hers that she

has already written what their story looks like. Andrew had a very different view of what they were and who they were going to be, and that's really hard to rectify. That is hard to mentally deal with for anyone, much less again, Karen has many, many, many pokers in the fire.

Of her mental health right now. It's not just the relationship with Andrew, but it is not helping that she has that kind of unhealthy, toxic dynamic with him where she thinks it's genuine and she wants more and he doesn't, and she's literally taking prescription meth anthetamine amongst other you know, anthetamines that she's taking, and a myriad of other drugs. Therese were only three that we listed. There was like thirteen. So somebody who already has fragile mental health,

I don't think taking meth is going to help the situation. So I think Karen was dealing with a lot of different things, and I think it's really easy to judge somebody if they're doing something that would be akin to stalking. But I do think given the situation, I can completely understand if she was having like almost a mental break or a psychotic episode, because having to go and have this illegal abortion would be incredibly traumatic, crossing the border,

going with your friends. The man that made you pregnant in the first place has basically abandoned you, and then when you come back, he wants to see other people, and so you're left to grapple with the loss of this baby that you may or may not have wanted. Either way, it's difficult. And then this man has just left you. So I can see how she's dealing with very complex emotions and it could cause very troubling behaviors when coupled

with methamphetamine and all these other drugs. Karen was definitely going through a lot of personal turmoil at this time. But in the end, this case pretty much wound up going against the norm for this type of investigation. We've covered many cases on a respective podcast where the police were quick to write off a victim's death as accidental or suicide, while their friends and family kept insisting it was foul play. But here Karen's friends seemed ready to accept that she took

her own life or accidentally overdosed. Then the coroner discovered the broken highoid bone in her throat and the whole thing turned into a murder investigation. I will say that, in spite of Karen's many personal problems, I had my doubts this was suicide because I'm not sure what the method might have been. Since Karen had a lot of different drugs in her medicine cabinet, and some of their bottles were empty, you can easily assume that she swallowed a bunch of

pills to take her own life. If that was the case, I have a feeling that she would have vomited something up. But nothing was found at the scene, and I'm not sure if any traces of drugs were found in

Karen's system. I mentioned this earlier, I think in episode one. But the reality is is that if she were trying to complete suicide and that highoid bone is going to be broken, if you had found something around her neck, a ligature, which still could have been homicide, right, I would see them quickly saying, oh, look, she tried to hang herself or she you know, she was trying to succeed herself. But there wasn't There

was nothing there. And that bone, while it's fragile and it'll break, you've got to have the right pressure and the right angle to have that break. And as as a suicide victim, as someone who takes their own life, I just don't see how that would happen. I don't think you would fall and hit it. I don't think that that would occur. It seemed like she was entertaining someone that she was existing in a normal realm when she was killed. Because there's coffee brood, it's sitting on the floor. There's

a bunch of cigarettes sitting there. She has a coffee pot on the floor with her. There's specs of blood on the couch. She was an entertainer and she needed like what Like I've said over and over again, she needed people there. I just don't see her going away. She was craving someone to save her and no one did. You want to know how this hide bone could be broken? I'm the boat to tell you James Elroy's theory.

Well, let's do it. Come on, James. One person who seems convinced that there was no foul play in Karen's case is noted author James Elroy, who has written such popular crime fiction novels as La Confidential and The Black Dahlia. In his book Crime Wave, Elroy devoted an entire chapter to the

Karen cups in a case and made some interesting discoveries in his research. Elroy seemed intrigued by the fact that a book was found in Karen's apartment which was open to a particular page which stated that one should dance in the nude in order to free their inhibitions. Elroy theorized that perhaps the reason Karen's body was found in the manner it was because she decided to perform some nude dancing in the apartment that night, but possibly due to the fact that she was on

drugs at the time. She slipped, fell and hit her throat on something before landing face first on the couch. If Karen wasn't strangled, then this could explain the broken hyoid bone in her throat. I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I feel like if you feel that bone like I mean, you can feel it, it's pretty flexible. It moves around it's own was like someone has to hold pressure and press it down for that to break. I just don't think that someone's gonna slip and fall and

break just that bone. Nothing else, not her arm, not her leg, not her shoulder, not her you know, clavical nothing, just that bone. I don't buy it. I think someone wanted Karen sexually and didn't get it. They were frustrated with her erratic behavior, They were in a fuss with her. They wanted to hurt someone, and she was vulnerable. I could see Karen just being such a perfect target for someone so to sexually abuse her or to emotionally abuse her and then get what they want out of

her. So I don't buy it. I think James L. Roy is a wild man, crazy person. And don't you think that if she had broken the bone and somehow she wasn't able to get oxygen, wouldn't she be like clutching her throat or something. Yeah? And where's the blood coming from? Like there respects of blood all over the count from what James Alroy is a great fiction writer, But if you put this scene in one of his

novels, I don't think anyone would believe it. No, And James, I'm sorry, I don't know you, so you're probably a fabulous human. I just this theory. I don't agree with you. Ever seen a La Confidential of the movie basically it was so good good Yeah, and Black Daddy is fabulous. I think I've actually read your book. James, just disagree with this one. So the biggest wild card in this case is the competency

of the coroner, doctor Harold Kate. Doctor Kade was known for being an alcoholic with a history of ratic behavior, so there's been some speculation that he either misdiagnosed the broken hioid bone and came to the incorrect conclusion of homicide, or even worse, actually broke the hioid bone himself during the autopsy. Well. Performing another autopsy shortly after Karen's death, Kate allegedly told a colleague quote, at least I didn't break the hied bone on this one. To give

you an idea of Kate's credibility. In nineteen sixty six, there were no less than three cases in which deceased victims were exhumed because the findings on Cade's original autopsies were challenged. In fact, a couple of innocent people actually wound up being wrongfully convicted of murder because of these errors. So Cade was ultimately forced to resign and wound up facing charges of gross negligence. This means it's not implausible that Cade was completely out to lunch on this case. I don't

think, yeah exactly. I think that we have this reality that the you know you're you're talking about, even where he's saying there's a hand, a certain hand being used, how do we know that. I mean, when you talk about these medical examiners, specifically in the sixties, I just think that there is a problem when you say, Okay, we're going to pin everything on what the autopsies said, and so you know doctor Cade being an alcoholic, so be it. I don't think that is what the crux of

saying he's not a great doctor would be. It's a stressful profession, Dennis doctors. They all struggle with addictions. So not the biggest thing. But this is just like, who's our malick? Doctor malick doctor? Yeah, doctor Gay is better than thank you. I was just about to say,

at least he's a little bit better than that. However, there is a problem when you start to say that these medical examiners, these coroners, that they are making these conclusions, and then you start to see questions in their future analysis of death, or you start to see a historical review of what they said and they're wrong in certain cases. Now, all of a sudden, everything they've said becomes a question mark. Doesn't mean they were wrong,

but it definitely means I struggle do we trust it a thousand percent? And very rarely do I actually give one hundred percent confidence to any kind of medical report. Because there's so much pressure. You don't know how many cases they're dealing with at the time. You don't know what information they've been given at the time, you don't know who has asked for the information, So they're in a very precarious situation. You should just given their career much less.

Doctor Kage struggling with different kind of issues as well. There's an element of subjectivity too, And when you've got somebody saying something like, oh, was a left handed perpetrator, you can understand that with certain things like knife wounds, when they'll talk about you know, there's a certain pressure how something could be applied, or when somebody has sustained a bunch of different wounds that they believed that the perpetrator was right handed or left handed, and that type of

a thing. But with the hihoid bone, there's no finger bruising on her neck that we are aware of that would like lead this corner to leave this medical examiner to believe this. So it just feels like he just pulled it out of thin air and it doesn't feel very credible. And then when we have him talking to a colleague, at least I didn't break the hioid bone

on this one. A month after Karen's autopsy, it's like, well, are you referring to Karen's keys or is this another individual that you've exactly that you broke their highoid bone. And then all those other exhimations, those are just the cases where family members likely pursued this with law enforcement and then the bodies were exhoomed. Who knows how many countless other cases that he messed up.

Yeah, it's always scared to be when we find out about wrongful condictions just because some medical examiner misinterpreted the evidence and testified about it at an open court. And then when you find out that they were wrong and that this person was innocent, then, like Ashley said, you wind up questioning every single case this person has worked on. And I can see why there would be some question about whether his ruling in Karen's case was the correct one.

Now, in spite of James Elroy's theories, police still considered Karen's death to be an unsolved murder. I do think that Elroy's explanation that Karen fell over and crushed her throat on something while dancing in the nude is a bit of a stretch. I mean, I do think it's possible that Karen did accidentally fall over and maybe broke or highoid bone, but not because she was down. There was a towel found on the floor in Karen's bathroom, which seemed

to suggest she showered shortly before she died. Since her bathrobe was draped over a chair, it's possible Karen exited the bathroom after showering, but something happened before she had a chance to put the robe on. If Karen was high on drugs, she simply might have tripped or passed out, which caused her to land the wrong way and to damage her throat. The other explanation, of course, is that Karen's death was an accidental overdose and that doctor Kade

accidentally broke her high oid bone himself during the autopsy. In order to cover up his mistake, Kade ruled that Karen was strangled to death and never bothered to explore other possible explanations which didn't involve murder. This might be the reason we don't know specific details. Okay to play Devil's advocate, though, If doctor Kade's the one who broke her highoid bone, he's the only one doing the autopsy, so unless she gets exhumed later, like what does anyone else

know? So, I mean I've thought about that four two So like people that I've cared about that an autopsy's been done, I'm like, well, I mean, unless we asked for it to be done again, how do I know that that's even true? Right? You trust that what they say is accurate. So the fact that he would lie and say the highoid bone is broken to cover his own rear end, what's the benefit of that. I mean, I definitely think he couldn't. Don't don't doubt what I'm saying.

I think he definitely could have. But what does that benefit unless he's concerned that there could be a second autopsy performed or she could be exhumed down the road, I feel like we still haven't ever heard was a sexual assault exam performed or was there any sign of any kind of damage to her body as regard to an assault, because there isn't information. There's almost like all

we know is that highoid bone and that's it. There's nothing else detailed in her autopsy, which is odd to me, and that they were left handed right right right, Like we know that, yeah, since you imagine the sexual assault that he is surprising that we don't really have any evidence either way, Like, they've never said anything to indicate she was sexually assaulted, which

may be due to the decomposition, maybe they were unable to tell. But you would think that there would be something definitive to point to if she had even consensual sex or was assaulted prior to her death. So it is kind

of surprising that they never really came to a conclusion on that one. I gotta say, when I first started delving into this case, my initial instinct was that there was no foul play and this was nothing more than an overdose or a tragic accident, which became a homicide investigation because of an incompetent coroner.

However, there are still some issues which bother me, specifically the fact that when Edward Ruben and Robert Hathaway left Karen's apartment that night, they were certain that they locked the door behind them, but when the Goddards showed up

three days later, the door was unlocked. Now, this might be a simple case of Ruben and Halthaway misremembering things or not locking the door as thoroughly as they thought, but if what they said is true, then this suggests that someone else entered Karen's apartment after they left, and since there were no signs of forest entry, Karen might have opened the door and let the person

inside herself. The lockdoor detail is one of the reasons I'm inclined to think that either Reuben or Hathaway had nothing to do with Karen's death, because if they just told the police that they left the door unlocked, then it's easier to believe that another suspect could have entered the apartment and killed her. Now, both men claimed that they left because Karen kept falling asleep on the couch

and went into her bedroom. This is why they decided to turn down the volume on the television, and since the TV was still running at a low volume when Karen's body was discovered three days later, it was probably never turned off. I have a feeling that Karen was probably sleeping in the bedroom until Andrew Prime woke her up when he called to check in on her at midnight.

Now that she was awake, Karen might have been compelled to go take a shower, and was shortly after this when she unlocked the front door. It seems unlikely that Karen would have answered the door in the nude, but she may have been dressed her her bathrobe. Would she open the door and let someone inside? Events could have transpired which led to Karen removing her robe or having it forcibly removed by the person who ultimately strangled her to death.

Due to the state of decomposition our body, I don't think they were able to determine if Karen was sexually assaulted, but that may have been a motive for her murder. But who could the perpetrator have been. It's bizarre because when you said that she had all these people into her house because she had this great television, and yet she still might have been living in this kind of uttered disarray because of her mental health. It is very interesting. Ruben

and Hathaway are there. If it had just been Reuben, if it had just been Hathaway, it would be incredibly suspicious. But both men say, yeah, she was our friend. We all knew each other, and she kept falling asleep. We actually kept watching TV when she went to bed, and then we slipped out. I mean, that's a very plausible story. Andrew called and checks on her later, also a very probable story. And then you go, now, who came by at such a late hour or

early in the morning. I'm still stuck on that coffee. There was a cup of coffee brood, there was a pot of coffee on the floor. It almost seems to me like she woke up the next morning and she's trying to get around for the day, and then someone comes by. Then somebody calls her. Then somebody knocks on the door, and like we keep saying, I think she would have answered for anyone she knew because she was lonely.

She didn't feel like she was loved by her family, she didn't feel like she was loved by the industry, she didn't feel like she was loved by Andrew. And yet she was always around people, even when she was sick, when she's struggling with her eating disorder, she's at a dinner party, when she's overwhelmed by this phantom baby that's left. She's at a dinner party with her friends. She's answering the phone, hoping Andrew will want a

relationship with her. So oh, I think anyone could have knocked on that door, knowing she was vulnerable and taken advantage of her. Also important to point out about doctor Kade. He's a coroner, and I think it's important to remind everybody that coroners are elected officials, and in certain jurisdictions you can have a coroner who has no experience whatsoever. They're just a reputable person that gets appointed very little training. Medical examiners are typically the ones who have this

significant medical training. Now, you can be a doctor and not trained to do thorough autopsies and still be so reputable you get elected as a coroner. So that's also anytime I hear a coroner being personally a hair drestion. In some places too, you don't have to be a doctor. You could be a you could be a high school dropout. I have seen jurisdictions. I

remember working in case one time with a sheriff's department. You're right, Jewels, and I literally reading about this man and it's like, okay, here's the corner and I'm reading. I'm reading, and I'm like, corner medical examiner. Remember the moment I sat there, I said, those are so

radically different, and I look this guy up. He literally never finished high school, which doesn't mean anything, but he has no he was a fire like a fire rescue volunteer, no medical training and legitimately had done like two thousand autopsies, and I'm going with what training, Like, they didn't send him to training, they elected him. And it's a very small town.

And I remember thinking, like, God, bless, like this man is used in multiple areas to help with death investigations and he's not at all trained for it. So that's also to doctor Cave's disadvantage when we look at the evidence. We do know is that maybe he's an amazing doctor. But you could be a pediatrician or a dermatologist, and you would yourself say, I have no business looking at a death investigation, you know, but if you were appointed and you got that role, you would prefer warm the job,

whether you have the training or not. I called Katee a medical examiner, so I like confused and conflated the two job titles because he a doctor in front of his name. That was just like an assumption on my part. But it is very likely you could be any type of doctor. We don't even know if he was a medical doctor. Yeah, I could be a dentist. I mean, like you know, and I could see a dentist me like, I'm damn good with teeth. But God only knows if it's

not an odontologist. JUNI like, it's not done. You don't want to go there? Yeah, I'm not back. I always chease, Like when someone comes in the shop, they're like, oh my god, run, are you a doctor in art? And I'm like murder and they go oh, And I'm like, not that kind of doctor, you know, Like

I always chase PhD not m D. Like. Well, for years, there was a lot of suspicion about Andrew Prine, with the potential motive being that he snapped and killed Karen once he found out she'd been sending him the threatening notes. However, we know Andrew was at his apartment at midnight when he phoned Karen, and doctor Kade believe she was killed at a round twelve thirty am, though given his serious credibility issues, I can't even be sure

if that time of death is even close to accurate. But if Karen was killed at twelve thirty, then this means Andrew would have had to rush over to her apartment and murder her within a half hour before returning to his place and spending the next few hours hanging out with Reuben and Hathaway. That only makes logical sense if Karen said something to Andrew during that phone call which gave

him the sudden impulse to kill her. One thing I'm not entirely clear on is if Andrew even ever knew that Karen was pregnant with his child and had

gone down to Mexico for an abortion. Given that Andrew wasn't interested in a serious exclusive relationship at this point, I don't think he would have been interested in being a father to Karen's child, So if she told him about the abortion over the phone, I'm not sure that would have been enough to compel him to murder her, unless she told him she was planning to blackmail him or something. I don't know. It's obvious that Karen was much more obsessive

about Andrew than he was of her. Given her mental health status, it makes a lot of sense, and even though they weren't in an exclusive relationship, Andrew seemed to think highly enough of Karen to keep spending time with her, given that they had went on an outing to Palm Springs together only one week earlier. I certainly don't think it's one hundred percent impossible that Andrew could have been the killer, but there's just no real motive or any physical evidence

such as fingerprints which places him at the scene. I do think it's very telling that after Karen's parents spent years essentially trying to curtail Andrew's life by publicly branding him as a murderer, Cup finally admitted in his autobiography that he believed Andrew was innocent. It's not often you'll see a murder victim's family change their tune like that, so they must have had a good reason to believe that Andrew had nothing to do with her death exactly. So Andrew, for me,

Andrew was not a stand up boyfriend. Andrew was not somebody who was a helpful figure in Karen's life. But I also feel like Andrew's smart enough, Like he was getting these threatening notes, he was very well aware that she was. Well, maybe he wasn't very well aware, but he had gotten her pregnant. It's like we've seen dumb murders where someone goes, Okay, I'm gonna just take this person out, and it's so obvious it would be me. I don't know that Andrew was that dumb. Andrew's checking on

her, Andrew's concerned about her. Andrew is very upfront about the issues they were facing, what his stance was with the relationship. He seems very transparent, like I'll tell you I was not a great boyfriend. I will tell you I'm not husband material. I will tell you that I was still talking to Karen, and I was the last person to talk to her. It's very it'd be very dumb if it was Andrew. Andrew had motive to keep her quiet and get rid of her because she was obsessed with him. But

that also makes him a huge obvious target. And I just don't know that he was that dumb. He had a lot going on for him, and Karen seemed to be struggling so bad. Was she really a risk to him? Do I mean? Or was she just so? And he almost felt sorry for and responsible for in certain ways that he kept that relationship too, But he cared about her. But I just don't want to be your husband,

you know now. On the other hand, Karen's family felt much differently about David Lange, and on the surface, he seems to be the most likely suspect. Lang lived in the apartment right below Karen and claimed he returned

it around twelve thirty am. The approximate time of Karen's death. By his own admission, Lang was pretty drunk, and he had a notorious habit of walking into other people's apartments uninvited when he was intoxicated, and he flat out told someone he killed Karen, even though he later recanted and said he was just kidding. So I can definitely picture a scenario where a drunken Lang decides to knock on Karen's door late night, and because he's her neighbor, she

unlocks the door and lets him inside. Given Lang's innebriated state, any number of scenarios could have occurred which escalated out of control and led to him strangling Karen to death. But in spite of Lang's odd behavior, there are no fingerprints or any other piece of physical evidence which places him inside the apartment. Lang died in two thousand and six, so if he was responsible for Karen's

death, he took that secret to his grave. Overall, I'd say it maybe about fifty fifty between Karen's death being some sort of accident or overdose or foul play being involved. I'm not sure who the perpetrator might have been, but remember there were a few unknown sets of prints found in the apartment, so the killer could have been some unidentified person we don't even know about who

happened to stop by Karen's door that night. But when you consider that the homicide ruling was made by a corner so incompetent that his autopsies wound up getting multiple innocent people convicted of murders which never happened, I'm willing to believe there

may have been no murder in this particular case. The only thing I one percent sure about is that Karen's death had nothing to do with the Kennedy assassination, and I think that all those conspiracy theories have really muddied the case and provided an unnecessary distraction. When you look at Karen Cups in its life as a whole, you can see that the source of a lot of her issues was the enormous pressure she faced from her mother to become a star, which

caused her to lead a self destructive lifestyle. So regardless of whether or not Karen was murdered, this is still a really sad story. As far as I know, this is technically an open case with the LAPD, So even though nearly sixty years have passed, if you happen to have any information on the unexplained death of Karen Cupsonant, please contact the Perfect Authorities. Jules Ashley

any final thoughts on this case, Yeah, absolutely. I mean Karen was this young woman who had so much potential, but it's almost like the issue here is way bigger than her murder. It's the pressure that's put on her. It's the family dynamic of saying, listen, as my child, you're going to be someone. You're going to live up to this expectation and all of the expectations that were put on Karen, almost expectations that she didn't want

and she didn't feel like she could live up to. And I think that made her a huge target for people to say, you are needing something, you're not happy, you are craving attention, right, And so people like Andrew come into her life where he's fun, he is wild, he wants a fun relationship, and Karen needs something more. She needs somebody who says

you're valuable, You're worthy just the way you are. And instead of getting that with a healthy relationship with her parents, with her boyfriend, she's seeking it out in a media realm and an entertainment realm and she just wasn't ever going to get it there. And you start to see this young woman break down and start running into issues that seemed bigger than her spirit can handle. So getting pregnant and having to get rid of the baby and have an abortion

right and saying that I can't have that baby right now. What I think truly was a psychotic break and thinking I gave up this baby, and then a baby arrives on my doorstep and then it's taken away from me too. I don't think there was really a baby. I think Karen is so sad in that moment, and then you read her notes where she's saying, my life is so dark, I don't want to do this anymore. I think that was in regards to her career. I think she just wanted someone to

say, Karen, step away from it all. You are perfect the way you are. You are amazing, and yet she was looking so hard for someone to say that. I think she opened that door to the wrong person. And then her family was left going, please help us figure out what happened to our baby, And thank goodness, her father had the kind of presence and confidence and strength to say, you guys, need to get off this conspiracy theory. My baby was killed, my baby died. I had

to bury her. I don't need this kind of mess following us. And you do see that family go on to live quite a long life, quite a successful life, which is not always the case in these stories we share. I'm sad. I wish Karen had had that one person, that one friend and said I see you hurting, I'm here and like, let's step away from all this, and she didn't. It is sixty years that have passed since this. I'm not incredibly encouraged that Something's going to be solved in

Karen's case. But Karen mattered, and I think the fact they were sharing this story makes me really proud. That's to say that she mattered, and her problems then are not that different than problems that myself, that jewels that every woman listening and other families that are listening have experienced before. So might have been sixty years ago, the reality of what she went through is still real. And if anyone does no information, my god, how powerful would

it be to solve what happened to Karen. Karen's words that she wrote in her journal make me really sad. And the fact that she seemed to be embarking on this career that I question if she really wanted to do or if she thought that it was somebody else's dream, like her mother's dream. There just seemed to be this immense loneliness. And I can tell you from personal experience with disordered eating, there is a lot of loneliness that goes along with

that. There's things that other people aren't thinking of and you're thinking about it, like going and sitting down for a meal with people when you're in your disorder can be very upsetting. Andy can feel traumatic because you feel like you're going to be picked apart. There's a lot of emotional complexity that goes along with that. And then when you factor in losing the baby, I agree

with ashe. I believe it was a psychotic break when she believes she saw the baby on the porch and called the police, And then you're dealing with somebody who had made her pregnant but then didn't want an exclusive relationship. But I don't know if this whole Palm Springs thing was just friends or if he was still seeing her and continuing to see other people and maybe making those notes was just her attempt to get him to maybe comfort her, and it was

something that they could commiserate over receiving these awful notes in the mail. And I just feel so sad for her because it seemed like her mental health was at a very low point. Do I believe it was suicide? No? Do I think it was connected to the jfk assassination. No. Could it have been accidental? And doctor Kaye the coroner, screwed it up absolutely, because we just don't know any other details about blood alcohol level, any drugs

that could have been in her system, if she was sexually assaulted. These are big holes in the autopsy that we were just unaware of the information that should be there. So we're having to speculate on what we do know. And we do know that there was that land guy that was from a wealthy family and he liked to walk into people's apartments without their none, which is super creepy. And I think, like Ashu pointed out the coffee pot on

the floor, I don't necessarily think it means it was morning. I just think that she could have invited somebody in because of the open door, and then that person did her harm. I think the possibility for falling and injuring her high bone to break it. I think that's pretty difficult to do. You'd have to fall at a very specific angle, but of course it is

possible. Yes. I first became familiar with this case nearly ten years ago when I wrote an article for crack dot com, because that's where I found out about this weird story about the anonymous woman who supposedly made phone calls to

an operator and accurately predicted the exact time of the JFK assassination. And then I found out they suspected it was an actress named Karen Copsonant So I kind of went down the rabbit hole and decided to do a podcast episode on the trail went cold a few years later, And of course then I realized that this was the most absurd aspect of this story, that there's probably like no connection at all with the JFK assassination, and it's just a coincidence that Karen

happened to die only a few days after this event took place. And I

do think they have moneyed the case. But even if you cut the entire JFK angle away, then you find out that it's really sad but intriguing story where we can't be one percent certain if Karen was the victim of foul play, but if she was, there are a number of promising potential suspects, and I do agree that out of all of them, David Lange definitely seems like the most likely because he lived at the same apartment complex, allegedly bragged

about it, and had a habit of walking into other people's apartments. But they just never found any conclusive evidence. But I also don't rule out the possibility that her death was not a homicide and that the corner just screwed up at the high bone, and that her death was the result of something else,

like an accidental overdose. I would be curious to know, though, like if they did a fresh investigation, if they would find any DNA on her body, because obviously they were not thinking about stuff like DNA back in nineteen sixty three, and we don't know if she might have been sexually assaulted, and a lot of stuff missing here did make a complete determination of what

happened. But like I said, we are about to reach the sixty year anniversary of the JFK assassination, which also happened to take place on the same week as Karen's death, So who knows, maybe us covering it on the podcast or the sixty and anniversary will help bring rejuvenated interest into this case, because even though so much time has passed and most of her family members are dead, we still deserve to find out conclusive answers about what happened to Karen,

And even if she was not the victim of foul play, her story still deserves to be heard because it's pretty much a very sad case studio what happens when someone is pushed into a lifestyle that they don't really want and wind up becoming very unhappy and self destructive. And I just feel that if mental health was in a different place in the nineteen sixties and Karen had someone to turn to that she could share a problems were, then maybe her story would

have turned out a lot differently. Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit about the Trail Went Cold Patreon? Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, and we offer the standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up with us on Patreon if you join

our five dollar tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in which I talk about cases which are not featured on The Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon, and if you join our highest tier tier

three, the ten dollar tier. One of the features we offer is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries, where you can download an audio file and then boot up the original UNSAWD Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very first episode that I did a commentary track over was the episode

featuring this case. So if you want to download a commentary track in which I make more smartass remarks about Jewel Kaylor than be sure to join Tier three. So I want to let you know a little bit about the Jewels and Ashley. Patreon, so there's early ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our Path Went Chili vinis, which are always over an hour, so they're not very many, but they're just too short to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those, so we hope you'll check

out those patreons will link them in the show notes. So I want to thank you all for listening, and any chance you have to share us on social media with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciate it. You can email us at the path Went Chili at gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at the path Went So until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy