¶ The REACH Revolution Introduced
it is the pastor's heart , dominic steel and today , the reach revolution . A look under the bonnet at what is happening here in australia to more effectively reach people for christ and what's happening in a parallel movement in the uk .
Richard cookin is with us , 29 years , the senior and founding pastor of Dundonald Church in London , founding leader of the Commission Church Network there and the founder of the London Men's and Women's Convention . But he has just stepped back from all of that and started Reach UK .
He's been here in Australia with a team from Britain attending the REACH Australia conference , but just the very week before that he was running the REACH UK conference in London .
Richard , thanks for coming and talking to us on the Pastor's Heart and just before you head off to the airport , I just want to talk about your pastor's heart , as you've come to the end of the REACH Australia conference and you and I had a moment at the last night of the conference .
We were sitting and chatting in the foyer there and you opened up and were quite reflective and vulnerable about the impact of the conference here and the thinking on you .
Yeah , I was just thinking as a pastor . You get towards the end and you reflect on your ministry and then you go to something like the Reach Australia conference . You realise there's so much I hadn't realized about ministry , so much that I failed to do . So much I didn't do and it you know I could .
Things could have been better , I could have done things a lot better . Um , I mean , you know you do your best at the time , but you also need to recognise when younger people are bringing things out that are really helpful and to encourage young people to learn from them , recognise their wisdom and don't make the same mistakes that I've made .
I mean tell me more .
Yeah Well , I think I've been to the Reach Australia conference two or three times , and I think the first couple of times I came I was really struggling to show allegiance to a pentagram you know , whatever it was , We'll put that up on the screen . Well it's sort of the mechanics .
There's lots of language that describes Actually you and I just going back to our Wednesday night conversation . We were having a little kind of old man's rant and I was ranting against… Speak for yourself , Anyway .
go , yeah , go , yeah .
And I was ranting against acronyms and talking about how we are so exclusive as a movement , with all this language of a CMS and an FIEC and all those kind of things .
Yeah , what's that for An MTS ?
And you said there's a whole lot of language in the reach movement that is almost impenetrable .
Yes , well , I think the trouble is when people have become experts in things , they start using shorthand language and you know you can be cynical , but actually if you're cynical about that , you fail to recognise they're actually quite deep thinking . You know they've been working at this for a lot of years and so there clearly is a movement and it was at 1300
¶ Richard's Pastoral Reflections
pastors or something , leaders , church leaders there , and actually , um , cynicism is a really dangerous thing , you know , you fail to recognize the value of something and you can get cynical as you're older and think , oh , we never did , never did this .
But actually I think I've realized that a lot of that language , like the Pentagon language and the pathway language , output thinking they're just descriptions of actually pretty healthy , very healthy intentionality , in other words , this Pentagon thing with five sides to it . I couldn't get what is that about , and I understand now .
It's just a tool for describing what a healthy church looks like .
And actually , if you don't , if you , if you don't settle on any any description and just talk in vague principles , what you end up with is is nothing to hold yourself accountable to , nothing to aim at , and I think what I've realized is that , um , the rich people have realized it's really helpful to pastors far and wide to have something you know .
Whether it's a pentagon with six sides , four sides , they don't care about that . The issue is have a vision of a healthy church that is biblical and aim at that and be intentional about it and be prepared to measure how you're performing so that you can improve and address weaknesses .
And I think actually that's about caring enough and I think you know you can sort of do ministry with a sort of pious passivism that just says , well , I'll do my preaching and leave it up to God . Actually I need to care about people becoming Christians .
I need to care enough about equipping my church for holy evangelism to actually look seriously at how we're doing . And I think the sort of the Pentagon language and ecosystem language they're just terms for assessing the spiritual health of your church and I think it's not helpful to be cynical of that .
I think in the UK we can be cynical of anything that's strategic , but actually you're just loving your church enough to care to plan , to pray , to think about whether I could do things better , sorry .
Well , I think the rich people are there encouraging you to recognize leaders need to take responsibility , to recognize we are the people who have the opportunity to make changes , to lead change and to bring our leadership teams and elders with us and to say let's see if we can do better to reach the lost preaching sermons .
But actually the numbers of people becoming Christians are very modest indeed . You know , often single figures . Sometimes in big churches with glowing reputations , you know there's lots of transfer growth .
I mean . One of the lines that they've been challenging us on is that you should be seeing whatever your average attendance is something like 5% of that number converts in a year .
¶ Decoding Reach Language and Tools
See in the UK people will immediately react to that and say you can't put a number on the work of God . How would you do that ? And I get that because there's truth in that that different contexts are variously hard . If you can't grow a church in Wimbledon , where I am , you can't grow a marijuana plant in Kingston , jamaica .
A church in Wimbledon , where I am , you know you can't grow a marijuana plant in Kingston , jamaica . You know it's kind of Bible Belt London and it's very different in other parts of London as it is here . So there's not rules . But if you don't have anything to aim at , you know the numbers and the figures .
You know Acts is full of numbers and of course you could there's this , you know react to numbers . You know you're measuring and of course David is punished for counting his troops for the wrong reason . So of course you can use numbers proudly and be a real pain , but actually in Acts Luke keeps recording the growth of the church to the glory of God .
And actually to use numbers so that you're operating with reality rather than anecdotal . You know pastors always like to big up what's actually happening and then you actually look at facts , reality , and you're way short .
So I think , to sort of be intentional , to care enough to be intentional , to care enough to hold yourself accountable , say that we're not doing well in this area . What could we do to improve , to be humble enough to learn from other people and say that we could do this better ? So that's what we're talking about .
One of the things we did and I'm sure we did it because of Rich Australia , it was 2017 , we just opened up a Google Doc and wrote down the names of the people who'd been saved in our church that year , and then we've added to that Google Doc every year not every year , every month or every six weeks , or whenever or not the next person's been saved .
We've written their name down and so we can actually see on that document how many people were saved in 2017 to 18 and say , oh , actually not as many people have been saved this year as we hoped for .
I think there are theological issues behind this and I think , even just remembering that , when God took flesh , what does holiness look like in the flesh ? It looks like Jesus and he was an evangelist . You know , when he calls people to follow him , he says I'll teach you to fish for people . You know , teach you to reach the lost .
You know , when he left us , he said make disciples full nations . You know , sometimes we think church is about being , you know , pure , pure church . Well , the reason God has delayed the end of the world , extended our lives , put us in the families we're in , in the places we live and the jobs we have , is to reach the lost .
You know churches , you know , look in 1 Timothy , what are they for ? And people say you know , looking one timothy , what are they for ? And people say you know , we're um pillars of the truth .
They make that sound like it's , you know , in order to battle with other churches , but actually the pillars of the truth , because chapter two , god is the savior , wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth . You know , the purpose of churches is to reach the lost and and it's urgent and we're in a hurry .
So I think we've got to start with theology of jesus and the church , that we've separated holiness from evangelism , as if holiness is something different from evangelism , as if holiness is just the absence of wickedness .
Well , stones don't have sins . Well , that was one of the things that Andrew Hood really thumped on us at the conference . What you mean blessed us with from his word yes . Which is the idea that if I am mature , I will be wanting to see the lost saved . I can't say that I'm mature and not be mature in anguish and striving to do that .
Yeah , maturity looks like Jesus .
Yeah .
You know , it's not burying my talents under the ground . It's investing everything I have in the work of Jesus .
You said a couple of nice things . Where are we weak over here ? I mean , where have you thought I don't want to do what they're doing ?
It's interesting when you come as a visitor , because you , it's , it's , as I mentioned , it is culturally difficult to climb into a sort of tribe that's healthy , and you'll hear the , the coded language , and I think they , I think they're more and more self-aware of that . You know we're not lining up to salute and adore the pentagon .
I mean , you know we mock , uh , I mock that because I find it difficult .
I'm going to come back and ask you more about the Pentagon in a minute .
I think the weakness is there are potential weaknesses . You know , I had thought guys don't forget that it's the Holy Spirit , through his word , that grows churches and that's central to everything .
And you know , I saw a little podcast from Zoe Earnshaw , who I think the world of actually I think Zoe's , I've known her for many years and she's absolutely terrific and she talked about the danger of the businessification of the church . And she's right .
There is a danger that you turn church into a business and that you think that just if you organize and strategize that somehow people will be saved . No , the purpose of the organization in Acts 6 is so that the apostles can dedicate themselves to the word and prayer . Six is so that the apostles can dedicate themselves to the word and prayer .
So , you know , the purpose of is to better bring the word of god to people . And , um , I think the criticism that I would have come here with is have people forgotten that it's the holy spirit , through his word , that saves and grows people ? But I was just thrilled at the conference , you know andrew heard gave three bible readings .
I thought they were outstanding , and I'm not just bigging them up , you know , I just thought they were outstanding .
They were deep biblical expositions , drawing together really important topics , you know , insights into the Bible teaching on hell and judgment , and then on the cross and then living by faith , and I thought that was a wonderful context in which to care about strategizing .
So I think we need to remember that the purpose of the strategy and I thought that was a wonderful context in which to care about strategizing so I think we need to remember that the purpose of the strategy is not just to get organized but to enable people to hear the word of God I think some of my English friends here .
To be honest , having listened to lots of Sydney sermons , I think there's still work to do on preaching and there is a danger that pastors will think if I just learn the right strategies , you know I forget about their preaching .
And I've heard senior evangelicals here worry that you know , getting excited about the new thing , a business strategy , will mean that we'll neglect the preaching of God's word . We need both , I mean . I think it's interesting . In Act 6 , which I spoke on at our own conference , three things happened in Jerusalem , not just one .
One is that the apostles devoted themselves to the word of God and prayer , and we need to do both . There's not always a lot of prayer here . I mean , I don't know , maybe everyone's praying at times , but prayer seems to be pretty short and perfunctory and nothing will happen without God . So we need to keep prayerful preparation of the word .
Nothing will happen without God . So we need to keep prayerful preparation of the word , particularly work application . I'm sure we're going to talk more about that . So that's
¶ Biblical Evangelism as Holiness
the first thing quality Bible teaching , and I don't think you know , I'm not sure we've arrived at that here at this end of the world . There are problems with our preaching as well , lack of application in particular .
The second thing was they built ministry teams , just to touch on the word issue for a moment . The second thing was they built ministry teams Just stay on the word issue for a moment , because you said to me before that there's something about grasping , really , what the author was saying to his original audience that you think we're weak on .
Well in the UK , great work from the Proclamation Trust over many years . Well , in the UK , great work from the Proclamation Trust over many years has helped pastors to focus on the evident human authorial intention in books .
And you know , because the Bible is literature , you know , not to bring your theological worldview to a text and make it fit it into your own worldview , but actually look at the literary , literary shape of the Bible text you're looking at and think what was the author intending ? Of course , sometimes that's explicit . You know one , peter five .
You know the end of John 21, . He tells us why he's written the book . So we need to bear that in mind as we interpret it . You can also tell from what's evident in the text . You , you can also tell from what's evident in the text . You know this particular context Paul's in prison . He's writing to a church in Colossae . He's never met them personally .
Epaphras , the founding pastor , is with him in prison . What's the worry ? The church is standing firm , we know from chapter 2 , but he's worried because false teachers are in town and so he's writing that they might stand firm because that's what Epaphras is praying for them .
And you can tell that from the text if you work hard at the text and there is a danger , if you ignore that and rush too quickly to systematizing with doctrine and biblical theology , that you come up with sort of summary statements that are true to the Bible but miss the specifics of the text , that you're in .
Our danger at the UK , I think , is the other end of that , which is that we think that if we've just established what the melodic line of the text is and we understand what the original author was writing , that we don't then come to conclusions , either doctrinal conclusions and then to application that you can live by .
You can't actually live in verses of the Bible . You have to live from the conclusions of the verses of the Bible . And I'm sure we'd love to talk more about this , but I did say three things happened in jerusalem . One is the bible . The second was they built ministry teams and of course some of them ended up preaching . But they built ministry teams .
They realized they couldn't do all the things that happened . It's vital to engage with the whole of the body . You , you know we're not just bodies full of mouths , we've got arms and legs .
And I think one of the problems if you copy city centre training ministries , you end up thinking everybody can be a preacher and you spend your ministry just trying to train preachers .
But in most ordinary congregations 95% of the congregations are not going to be preachers , and they're sitting in front of you and the only options you give them is make coffee , look after children I'd rather die or sit on the sound desk and actually they're perfectly competent people with lots of ministry potential .
We don't give them a reason to engage , commit , stay , invest in our churches because we're not building ministry teams . And then the third thing that happened and again this is a reminder to Bible people the hungry were fed .
You know , the apostles didn't say sorry , guys , I will have to ignore the hungry widows because we're bible teachers , um , or we're too busy building teams . They , they loved one another . And again we need to hear that we need to build ministries in which we love one another .
In the uk the last 10 years and we haven't learned nothing else We've learned that truth without love is very damaging and we need to recover , investing in ministries that love the church , because by this , people will know that we're his people . So three things happen in Jerusalem .
But the purpose of the building of ministry teams is to let those whose job is preaching and teaching concentrate on that .
Anyway , no , I mean , what I've loved about what you've just said is you've actually anchored .
I've alienated everybody .
Well , no you've anchored the building of ministry teams in the strategy of the apostles .
Yes .
And so I think you're saying what we might be doing here is we need ministry teams , so we should go and work out how to do them .
There's always a danger of that .
Whereas you're saying actually look , there's a pattern of ministry in the scriptures , of building ministry teams .
I think any helpful ideology or ministry approach , if you're not careful , it becomes a thing in itself . And to keep going back to the scriptures to say is this what the scriptures teach ? Are we , are we going further from the scriptures ? So to the scripture people , I want to you know we're all scripture .
But for those who are skeptical of the reach , um passion for ministry , I want to say they are biblical , they wanting to be biblical . But to my friends in reach I want to say don't forget to keep checking , yeah , that
¶ Three Essential Elements of Church Growth
your ministries are rooted in the word of god .
What , what , I found just wanted to pick up on what you've just said there a moment ago , though , if I was to contrast the ministry that I've done prior to coming into contact with them the reach movement and since coming into contact with the REACH movement , I really think my vision for the layman prior to engaging , I really didn't have much for them to do
apart from leading a small group , yeah , whereas now I can see there are all sorts of levels of leadership using their gifts that are potentially much better fits for people , much better fits for their gifts and much more useful for the overall growing of the kingdom .
I think that's true . The only thing I'd add to that sorry to be contrary , but it's not just to give everybody a good time being involved in church .
No .
It's about reaching the lost , reaching the lost and I think , in the end… .
But we are better at reaching the lost Well .
I think churches who are focusing on being strategically effective are just reaching more non-Christians . What's ruining the argument is people becoming Christians in large numbers . You know , all the churches that are engaging with this are reaching more people with the gospel . All the churches that are engaging with this are reaching more people with the gospel .
I mean , that was quite extraordinary , the graph that they put up , yeah .
I mean you can't argue with people becoming Christians . I don't mean so much the numbers . People are becoming Christians in large numbers in these churches and I think that's the challenge .
We've just called our conference Churches Reaching the Lost , because I think in the past we've just tried to train individuals to reach the lost and we've missed the fact that churches collectively reach the lost . We do it as an organic body . It's there in the New Testament , isn't it ?
Romans 12 , what's the first example of a life of worship transformed by the grace of God in Romans 12 ? The first example be sober-minded and respect the body . You know the gifts of the body , but what are we trying to do ? Ephesians 4 , equip them for ministries that will grow the church in godliness and in number .
I saw you chatting with Richard Ledbeater , who's your successor at Donald , and I'm imagining that as you walk to the car together and that kind of thing you were talking about well , what do we do differently here ?
And he's saying well , here's something you used to do , coke , and I'm going to go completely different as a result of listening to this seminar today . Take us under the bonnet of some of those conversations .
Yeah , so Richard Ledby , or Leddy as he's known everywhere , it's wonderful , isn't it that in Leddy , so , both in taking over at dundonald and also taking over at commission , in a guy called andy mason , um , both of them are wonderful , gospel-hearted , bible teaching men who are going to build on the the things that you know .
I've managed to start and make them better and um , so , uh , yeah , we're it , and Lady is very skilled in this . I think he gets it better than I do and you know he's an evangelist at heart . He wants to reach the lost and I'm thrilled about that . I mean , how can you not be ? So , what are some of the takeaways from this ? From here ?
I think he there's been no training in managing people in leading teams for us as pastors . You know , some of the mistakes that I've made in my ministry are about not leading teams very well . And certainly as churches grow and you're building ministry teams , you have to learn , whether you like it or not .
I mean , don't call it business , I mean it's all of God's common grace . Some of the wisdom that we can learn from that book from Dave Moore is phenomenal . He's just read that . He commended it to me . I haven't read it , yeah .
So there you go . We did a Master's Hut with Dave six months ago .
Yeah , yeah , I met him while I was at the conference , yeah , and what a terrific , what I love . But all kinds of people have got gifts to contribute , because when you're wanting to use all the body , then all kinds of people in different roles have got things both to do but also to contribute wisdom . I mean our conference in the UK .
One of the things we've tried to do is to say there's not just a church , a conference for pastors , it's a conference for pastors , it's a conference for pastors and their teams , and so we're trying to provide consultancy and clinics and church assessments and a conference .
Sorry to get that in there , but we are trying to do those things , but not just for pastors but for the members of the teams , so that all the ministries of church can be healthy and effective Okay .
Let me push you around on a couple of lines . Be clear about what you're trying to achieve as a church .
I think you know people . Again , if we're piously passive , we can say why do we need a vision ? You know .
What's the pushback you'll get to that in the UK ?
Anything that's strategic . People say you know something ungodly . You know they'll say you know 1 Corinthians 3 , you know it's God who gives the growth . But it's very striking , isn't it ? You know I planted and Apollos watered and God gave the growth . In other words , there are things for us to do .
God gives the growth through the apostle planting and Apollos watering . It's not just God gave the growth and you didn't do anything .
¶ Building Effective Ministry Teams
We have to engage and it's hard work . We could talk more about that . But God uses means , he uses people . As we go about planting and watering , god gives the growth . So all of the vision is to try and get clear . What are we trying to do ? What are we trying to do in this church ? Because Christian people are magnificent .
They will do anything for a gospel cause . But if they don't know what the gospel cause is , what you can get in a church is people frustrated . They don't know what we're doing collectively . You know , if you're just managing from the middle , a pastor will be inundated with people with problems and you know there's always more to do .
But people with energy to try and reach the lost will come up with different ideas . Some will say we need to employ a children's worker . Some will say we need to plant a church . Some will say we need to improve the front of the building . And they're all campaigning and you get a divided church and everyone's frustrated staff are frustrated .
There's nothing they can get behind . And Craig Hamilton makes clear in his great book on leadership to be fair , it's a big book . I've only read the middle bit . It's brilliant . That middle bit is brilliant . He said all the things I wish I'd said . Anyway , he says as a leader , you know you've got to get . It's your job to help the church understand .
What are we going to be doing collectively to try and reach the people in ?
our area .
And so for us at Dundon , every year we would have a prayer . We divide our AGM out from our vision meeting . So AGM , last prayer meeting of the year when you reflect on what was done over the year , ministry reflections , and then we have an evening of prayer and vision vision and prayer evening .
And we dream .
Take responsibility for what do we need to do . That's right . So take responsibility for outcomes . That sounds like you don't care about what God is doing . No , everything's bathed in prayer . But you're saying let's try and clarify . What could we do to reach the lost , to care enough ? So let's try and build door-to-door teams .
Let's try and visit 1,000 houses in the next year . Let's try and be a more loving church .
Even those ones . I mean visit 1,000 houses . That's an input towards the big goal of seeing 10 people come to Christ .
Yes , and if you don't have a goal and you don't aim at nothing , nothing will happen . So you're conscious all the time . This all depends on god . But it's just trying to plan . If we're going to have a hundred people come to christ , we're going to need to have a thousand people in our evening life course .
That means we're going to visit 5 000 homes , because one in five will come . How are we going to get a team to visit 5 000 homes ? Let's try and get a team and it's amazing Church people who are full of the Spirit and love . The Lord will back it , they'll come out , they'll give to it .
It's often embarrassing how committed lay people will be to their ministry teams if you give them a ministry team to be part of .
The issue of ecosystem . What do you think of that word ?
Oh look , I'm not a very good follower . You know I don't want . You know , it's nimby not invented .
We should define what ecosystem is before you critique it . Yeah , I'm going to agree with it .
Yeah , I think it's a healthy idea . I hate all these kind of I don't really like all the business language . It sounds like you're part of a program . You know starting up for a cult , you know what's an ecosystem .
It's just a word for a healthy church family and I don't know I might try and reinvent it as in sort of body language , um , but the the benefit of it is , I think , if I understand the way they're thinking , is um , instead of just thinking in terms of five stages to a process called 5Ms or 5Es , why don't you just think before you get to what you're
going to do ? Why don't you clarify what a healthy church looks like in terms of reaching the lost ? Let's give it some descriptions . You know , with five sort of sides to it , you can have six or four , but five Now just digression .
We'll come back to ecosystem in a sec . But I mean you were telling me you were sitting around five years ago or something with a group of church leaders in the UK and you came up with 30 things that a healthy church should have . But actually it is helpful to . That's too many , you can't have 30 goals .
No , we came up with seven actually in the end , and then we discovered that five within the church were exactly the same as the five Ms Right .
Which are things like what were your five ?
Well , our five were evangelise . Mission so serve , that is membership . No membership . Then instruct , that is maturity , yeah . And then train , which is the same as ministry , and then worship , which is the same as magnification .
So exactly the same five in a different way , and then you would think I don't like this idea .
Yes , exactly , so we had our word because we also had network the city that is , church planting and support the cause that is world mission . But it was seven . It's a bit similar to have five , so ladies taking the church back to five .
But all of that comes from what is a healthy church and the ecosystem is just observing that sometimes you get problems in one area that are actually the result of a weakness somewhere else , a bit like in the body , where you know I've got backache but it's actually because I've got hamstring problems , yeah .
Or you know I've got a problem and I've got I have got a problem on this knee , yeah , and the reason is because I had an operation on that knee and it .
You've been doing more work on the other and it's just thinking about how does the church family work together ?
that's healthy , isn't ? It's thinking , you know ? Is there a lack of evangelism and I just need to bash the congregation .
Do more evangelism or is it people feeling unloved ?
unloved they're feeling unloved and and they feel useless and they couldn't do it and actually the reason they're not having a go evangelistically is because I haven't loved them . I don't love this place because they don't love me . That's right , that kind of thing . So I think that's healthy . So I think it's not about the labels .
But I think what I realise is most pastors godly pastors are not so cynical and say well , I'm not coming because I don't believe in ecosystems . They're saying , actually I care enough for my people and I want to reach my community . I want to try and be useful to the Lord in saving people , not just running church .
So I'm going to suck it up and listen to some healthy ways and some of the things I heard this year just how to run church which is both deep and warm .
We've actually got Toby and Olivia , who gave that seminar coming in next week on the Pastor's Heart , to talk about that . Well , you want to listen to that . It's great . That was a fantastic presentation . It was .
It was Just helping . But again , what it's doing it's sharing wisdom . And last year at Reach , we launched last year just saying all we're trying to do is share wisdom .
¶ Strategic Vision vs Pious Passivity
You can call it best practice , but it's not just best practice , godly wisdom , it's biblical principles and then working them out in a British context , in different contexts . So the conference in the UK we've had rave people have really loved it . Partly it's not because we're trying to tell everybody what to do .
I think we're all a bit weary of being bossed around , do this , do that . But it is hearing from ministries that are effective how did you do that and what worked ? And lots of things we tried didn't . So let's be willing and humble enough to learn from people where it's worked . And I thought the REACH conference was really , really godly and effective .
And for those I do want to remind you , there are those who will be skeptical because it's all about preaching . And yes , we need to keep preaching central . But the reason the apostles built teams was so that preaching could be central .
You know senior pastors burning out because they're running around like headless chickens trying to do everything because they haven't built teams . And so actually you're protecting senior pastors , you're also delegating so that senior assistant pastors can stay a bit longer rather than moving on every three years .
Actually give them real authority to build teams , even budgets , you know . Actually give people freedom to grow ministries , feel responsible for them and learn how to lead a ministry and then actually sometimes you don't get so much turnover of staff , less frustration and the senior pastors don't burn out and actually preach better sermons .
So there's lots to say Thanks very much for coming in Pleasure . Richard Cokin has been my guest and he's got that string of things that we could say about Richard , founding pastor of Dundonald Church in the UK , but he's now the leader of Reach UK . My name's Dominic Steele . You've been with us on . The Pastor is Hard .
We're looking forward to your company next Tuesday afternoon when we'll be talking to Toby Neill and Olivia Chapman about deep and warm .