Gary Millar: Godliness vs Effectiveness - the Both/And Dilemma

Others know I'm one of them versus I'm set apart to lead . I lead patiently or I lead with a sense of urgency . They are just a few of the controversies of Christian ministry that we will solve in the next 28 minutes on the Pastor's Heart . Gary Miller is the principal of Queensland's Theological College .

He's the author of this new book , Both and Ministry , and they're just some of the controversies that he deals with in this book .

But , Gary , I wonder if we could start with your pastor's heart and just a super vulnerable little paragraph that I found well , it stopped me in my tracks on page 136 , when you wrote most Christians at some point do start to wonder if they're the real deal .

What God asks of us is so far-reaching , so all-encompassing , that when we come up short we start to ask ourselves am I an imposter ? Should I really be a leader ? And perhaps am I even a Christian ? After all , you were hoping I wouldn't notice that paragraph .

As soon as we come to the demands of the gospel and the wholehearted response that you know that our magnificent God asks of us , requires , deserves , I think , to call people to that , certainly in our more vulnerable moments .

There is something deeply exposing about that and I think you know , when we reflect on the parts of the New Testament that I think I honestly prefer to ignore , you know that we should . You know whoever loves the Lord Jesus , christ should walk as he did . You know that we're supposed to imitate Paul as he imitates Christ , even to say those words .

You know , I feel like we should add a qualification . You know , but I'm doing that really poorly . And I think I suppose at the heart of the book is . I just want to encourage all of us , myself and everyone else , to actually step into that and own the fact that we are actually called to live and to lead like the Lord Jesus .

Actually called to live and to lead like the Lord Jesus and that is both immensely humbling and immensely demanding , something that will by nature , require us to pour everything into it and to live a life of ongoing repentance and lifelong learning .

the gospel and we're no longer emphasizing others , or we're starting to assume things . And I do think in Australia at the moment , I think over the last 10 , 15 years , we work very hard at doing ministry effectively , organizing church , thinking strategically , seeking to plant churches , to reach into new communities .

But I think we've assumed that character matters , we all agree on that , but we haven't actually championed Christ-like leadership or leading like the Lord Jesus in quite the same way or to quite the same degree as we've championed being effective , being strategic , even being fruitful , being effective , being strategic , even being fruitful .

And I think the book is just hopefully a humble , gentle reminder to myself and everyone else that we actually do need to be strategic leaders , but we actually need to be gentle , humble , godly leaders as well .

And just to take one of those things it won't do , it's not good enough , it's not what God asks us to do and it won't lead to the health of the church .

Yes , and what are you wanting me to do ? Here's the dilemma godliness and effectiveness .

You know , naturally am I someone who just thinks about leadership , thinks about strategy , and then focuses on that , whilst living with the fact that I'm really not as godly as I'd like to be , but it's kind of okay because , look , I'm a strategic leader , whereas I think what Jesus calls us to is actually to be both strategic and godly .

And so identifying that then allows me to say I need to be very careful , because my instinct will be to think about strategy , to think about the next church we're planting , to think about how I can organize the team better and to say that almost compensates for the fact that I'm not really growing in godliness myself .

And I think that goes back to the kind of imposter syndrome , because I know for me , you know , if I'm faced with something that I'm really not very good at , or an area where I'm convicted that I'm not being gentle with people , I'm not lovingly investing in people , the great temptation is to say fact that I'm not all that godly or I'm not loving people .

Well , and I think that's a recipe for disaster both for me and for the church , because I've basically said I can focus on 50% of what Jesus asks us to do , of what it means to be a leader in the church of the Lord Jesus , when actually what we need to do is press into both of those things at the same time .

But I think we we do have to be humble enough that when we meet others , we're we're looking to them and allowing others to spur us on to be more like the lord jesus and also , you know , in the kindness of god for them , you know to to the kindness of God for them , to expose some of the growth areas that there are for all of us .

You know the the church must grow , so we will do whatever it takes to allow us to grow . So we'll just keep tweaking our practice without ever thinking about what the theological ramifications or undergirdings of that are . We always need to think both practically and theologically .

Now , of course , at the other end , it's possible just to be so concerned with orthodoxy that we never do anything . But the answer isn't this kind of middle ground which is kind of part theological , part pragmatic .

Everything we do should be the result of theological you know , solid theological thinking , but also be deeply practical and pragmatic in the middle of the community we're in , in the church that we're part of , as we seek to reach the lost .

So I think all of us kind of tend to kind of lean in one direction , but often it's the theological thinkers who are saying no , we probably shouldn't do that , we need to think about it more . And the practical thinkers are going oh you know , let's just get on and do it . But I think both of those are actually not good for the health of the church .

We actually need to be rigorously theological and we need to be deeply practical , constantly thinking about both ends of the line , in order that what we do is both honouring to God , it's richly gospel-shaped , christ-centred , and practically sensible and effective .

And so I've got those kind of things and I feel like my friends , who are kind of by nature right up the theological end , would look at me and think I'm a complete sellout pragmatist . Do you know that ?

But we actually don't have an option to let go .

And I think if you do let go of either of those poles , you know , even I mean I'm not saying any of us would say oh , I'm not going to think theologically anymore , but I think it's worthwhile just stopping and saying is my practice actually theological or have I just sort of abandoned the theological hard thinking to just run with effective ministry ?

And I think we just need to hold on to both of them , I am people-centered versus I am organizationally minded .

You know , I'll ply my own furrow here . So the organisers just get on with planning the church and people are almost treated , if we're not careful , like an obstacle .

You know they're disrupting the organization and those who naturally love people can very easily oppose organization to being loving , when actually we all know in church , if you're going to love people , well , that does include making sure that the church is running in a way which facilitates that .

But in the same way that you can't just say I'm never going to think about organization , I'm just going to kind of be warm towards people . It will be chaotic , disruptive , you'll not be serving people , well , you know , and this . But the same thing works the other direction .

You can have the slickest ship you know that has ever sailed the sea because you're so well organized , but actually people are people and we need to be relational and I think for all of us I do think we tend to one or the other- but we don't get to choose .

I can think of examples of churches where the past was immensely warm and but they ended up being quite a cold , quite a cold place to be because , you know we , you know the , the system was prioritized , actually , over the people , whereas you've , you've got to think of both at the same time .

And I think that if we have that kind of vision of the community of the people of God , one of the things it does is that it reminds all of us that we genuinely need each other . You know we need other leaders to lead with us and you know , I mean , I think at some level you know there has to be a plurality of leadership in the church .

But also it does just underline that as a community , you know we need to work on these things together . It tells me also none of us has it right , none of us has everything that we need , so we actually need to keep working

. I think the other thing , dominic , for me , I think what it does is it takes away my right to say look , you know , I'm really more of an A person . Don't ask me to do any of that B stuff , even when it's kind of clearly asked of us by the Lord Jesus himself .

And to me it seems the most obvious thing in the world to take that hill and there's no one else going up there . So , okay , I'll go . Let's go everyone .

Okay , I'm in this position , we have to give this a go , let's go . But there are other times when I kind of operate in the same mold and what I have needed to learn and I think still need to learn is , for example , there are other people on our team at college and people I work with and staff and people in church People who teach pastoral counseling ?

Yes , they don't , and things like that they don't necessarily respond to that . You know they actually need someone to sit down with them and patiently take them through the process and give them time . Give them time to reflect , give them time to , you know , to get on board , whereas instinctively , you know , what I want to do is just go .

It's really obvious why are we sitting here ? Let's go . But I think what Jesus asks of us is we actually learn to do both . You know that we lead people in the way that they need to be led , rather than simply the thing that is most comfortable for me . And you know we hear this in different ways .

I think the most common is I hear people say , you know , quite often not necessarily leaders oh , I'm an extra , you know I'm an extrovert , and the subtext is so don't , don't ask me to be sensitive to anyone . You know I'm just , I'm just being me . I'm out there or you know , I'm an introvert .

Don't don't ask me to kind of step out of my comfort zone and go and welcome the outsider . Now we are who we are , you know . However , we define personality types . Whatever you know , we know what they're , roughly what they're saying . Some of us are more outgoing , some of us are less .

Some of us are more conscientious , some of us are less , but but if I'm more , outgoing , some of us are less , some of us are more conscientious , some of us are less Absolutely . But if I'm more outgoing , you know I do need to deny myself , take up my cross and kind of shut up sometimes and listen to other people .

Similarly , you know , even those of us who are perhaps gentler , quieter at times , what God asks of us is that we step out of our comfort zone . We love other people , we initiate the conversation , and I think what we can't do is go . This is me , therefore . I'm off the hook and I think we do that quite a lot .

So therefore , if people won't get on board with me , kind of not my job to put my arm around their shoulder to care for them , to listen to them , to bring them along or even to go and sit with them .

You know , it's not the role for which I'm employed to be to , it's not my responsibility to be caring you know that that , irrespective of what our job description says , there are , there are things that that Christ asks of us . You know we still need to grow in godliness . You know we still need to be loving , we still need to be strategic .

You know it's not the . The pastoral care person doesn't , you know , doesn't get to to say , okay , all I ever have to do is care for people , I don't need to think about how we do this most effectively for the benefit of most people in church .

And similarly , you know the , you know the pastor for vision or strategy doesn't get to say , well , I get to trample over everybody in the interest of , you know , future growth .

But I think it's very easy for leaders to get into the kind of rut where that's just how they relate , Whereas there are other times , even for those of us who sort of thrive in conflict situations in some ways .

But we also have to be very quick , ready to admit that we're wrong when we are wrong , and not just license ourselves to relate constantly as if everything is a hill to die on . And I think we need to work against the grain a little bit .

is required , I also know that for me , sometimes I'm more likely to go into that oppositional mode when really what I should do is be quiet , listen to other people and realise that they're right and I've got something to learn from them .

And in this situation , what I need to do is to be quiet and submit , or to thank someone for correction , or to realise , yeah , I think we are going in slightly the wrong direction .

And I do think there is a common thread in many of the situations which made I think many of us ask how could they keep behaving in the way in which they did for so long ?

Know , obviously there were people who tried to try to speak into that , but , but the reality was people were effectively saying , but look at how fruitful he's been .

And I think he himself , you know , would have said at points , look at how big my church is , yeah , but I think , I think we can all do that , know , and it actually comes back to the imposter syndrome that often when we feel there's some weakness in our life , in our ministry , what we tend to do is focus on the strength , and I think that is a long-term

recipe for disaster and what it can do is it leads us to live a double life , but it points it also . It also leads us as the church or as peers , to excuse ungodly behavior in the lives of , of leaders by saying but they are immensely fruitful , or look at how able they are .

Or , you know , and I'm not saying this to kind of start a witch hunt , but I think together we do actually need to to look for integrity and even christ-likeness . And I think you know I've been , I think I'm persuaded that in our circles , how do we , how do we evaluate each other ? You know , how do we allocate respect ?

And often it's on the basis of ministry effectiveness , not necessarily godliness . When I say faithfulness , I don't mean opposed to fruitfulness , but people who quite clearly are living humbly and authentically for the Lord Jesus and seeking to be godly in everything they do and seeking to be effective ministers .

I think we're prone to seeing the particularly gifted people and at points then saying but they are massively gifted , they're massively fruitful . Yeah , they don't treat people very well , but you know , look at what God is doing through them . And I think we have a defective way of seeing what God asks of us , what God wants for his church , when we do that .

And you know , whether we're pastors or not , or leaders or not , we fall foul of the great lie that you're better to hide that stuff , to suppress it . You know , to live with the guilt rather than bring it into the light , and no forgiveness and cleansing and restoration and re-energization . So you know , I think that's where we just have to be .

I think we could be much better at encouraging each other to live lives of repentance and faith together . That that's the norm , that almost having to repent it's just the normal Christian life , rather than this enormous burden of shame that leaders shouldn't have to repent . They really should .

But I do think we've kind of assumed , you know that the character piece of , you know character , competency , you know convictions , I just think the character thing we all want to see people grow in Christ-like character .

But I think for those of us who are kind of in ministry , I think we've often assumed that piece because we've gone , it's the competency that I'm really . I'm feeling a lack of competency here .

So I will work really hard to grow in my competency and we need to , but we actually need to continually grow in christ-like character as well and and so to slightly change the conversation . But you know , as you know , I mean , in a way there's there's nothing new under the sun .

You know that probably our generation , you know , the generation before us , were probably , you know , strong in character and godliness , not always , not always so great on competence , and so the conversation changes a bit and our generation comes and you know , along with those behind us , we've said no , we need to , we need to do this better , which is true .

And we need to think about running teams , we need to think about organizing church , we need to think about effective evangelism I just want to say yes and we also need to think about Christlikeness for a lifetime , for the long haul .

And I think often , you know , we've had some very kind of godly leaders all of us , you know like , speaking into our lives and going ahead of us . I think every generation tends to assume some things , but the problem is they assume them , maybe they are godly , but they don't necessarily pass on that to the next generation .

They say this needs to change , but then our generation comes along and we have a completely different set of strengths and weaknesses , you know , and issues , and I just suspect that christ-likeness is one of the things that tends to have been assumed

and , as a result , ends up being a bit neglected , and we need to take hold of it again , without letting go of the competent stuff that we've we've spent so much time thinking about thanks so much for coming in .