Is doing YouTube a good business?

Welcome to The Panel: where smart founders discuss the realities of building better products and better life. I'm one of your hosts, Justin Jackson. I'm the cofounder of Transistor.fm.

I'm Brian Casel. I build things at Instrumental Products. Right now, I'm building a thing called Instrumentl Editor over there.

And we just got off the phone with two incredible guests. In a moment, you're gonna hear from

I'm Marie Poulin, and I am the founder of Notion Mastery.

And I'm Aaron Francis, and I am the co founder of Try Hard Studios.

How can we introduce these two guests? If you don't know Marie Poulin, she

Have you heard of Notion?

Yeah. Have you heard of Notion? During the call, I asked ChatGPT who are the top 10 Notion influencers, and her name was number one. She has created a whole brand around Notion Mastery. And that's the name of her course.

For sure. And, you know, Aaron our our friend Aaron Francis on the show. You you probably know him if you follow us or this podcast. But, you know, same thing. Like, I really love to learn about these creator driven businesses, like Aaron's and like Marie's.

And I think as folks are listening to this, maybe that's the lens to be considering whether or not you wanna be in front of the camera or what whether or not you wanna be, you know, doing a course or or some sort of creator business that revolves around a personality. I think a lot of folks preclude themselves from that because they're they feel like they're too shy or too introverted. And we're like, we went through all four of us. And I think you'll be surprised who considers themselves, you know, introverted and shy and not good in front of the camera or not, like, naturally maybe not good in front of the camera, but not naturally comfortable in front of the camera.

I thought that was one of my favorite parts of our conversation. Sort of near the end Mhmm. We really did compare and contrast the four of us, and we all have very different views and personality styles when it comes to how we think personally, introverted, extroverted, and how we how that applies in our business life and, like, on camera or on microphone. Yeah.

So let's let's not hesitate anymore. Let's get into the conversation.

Let's roll it.

Alright. We've just been holding ourselves back here waiting for Aaron to join the call.

Alright. So now we can stop talking about Aaron.

Yeah. And for for the listener, it is 216, and the call started at 02:15. So don't don't impugn my timeliness.

But we were asking Marie if, you know, Notion Mastery is still the main driver of her business, and she was starting to get into it. So so Marie, what's kind of going on in your world? I know that you have Notion Mastery, which is a course. And I know you have a YouTube channel, which I think is your main marketing channel. So yeah. What's going on with is it still Notion Mastery? That's still the big thing?

That's the big thing. It's been five just over five years, I think, October. Oh, wow. The the five year mark. So it's been the thing that's been paying the bills for five years.

I do wanna get into, like, all those questions. Just sort more of like a high level. You know, when I click through your your stuff and I've been following your work for so long, like you're you're the Notion person, right? What is like the landscape of all of your product offerings and like where do you focus most or what so, you know, there's, like, Notion Mastery. I'm seeing, like, smaller workshops.

Yeah. So loosely, I'd say I tend to focus more on the personal use cases. Ben so it's just my husband and I that that run Notion Mastery. It's just the two of us. And so Ben tends to handle more of the team, really scalable experiences inside of things.

Super interesting. I wanna come back to, like, the workshops thing because that's something I've been trying to learn a lot about in terms of that model, like, small, low priced workshops and then having more of, like, a flagship offering, like, after that. But anyway, like, Aaron, how are doing, buddy? Oh

oh, great. So awesome. Good to be here. I won't I won't do this to her now, but Marie and I have been friends for a long time, and I used to always ask Marie, what's Notion? Every time she would tweet or be like, is that? I gotta do Notion workshop. I'd just be all lowercase. No question mark. What's Notion? And it was funny, like, the first thirty times, but I haven't done that in a few Yeah. Thanks.

It is kind of amazing to me, though. Like, us here on, like, on the Internet, in our circles, everyone knows what Notion is. But still, like, my brother, my wife, my parents, like, they've never heard of Notion.

Mhmm. Still a pretty tiny bubble. Yeah.

Yeah. That's my favorite my brother works up in the oil rigs in Alberta, and I love, like, asking him stuff. Like, have you heard of this? He's like, what are you talking about, brother? Like, Different language.

Yeah.

Basecamp... what's that?

Yeah. No idea.

Aaron, what what is the what's happening at Try Hard Studios these days?

It's probably easier to say what's not happening. It feels like we're doing we're doing a little bit or we're doing a little bit much, aren't we? So yeah. So me and my friend Steve have this company, Try Hard Studios. And last year, we released two video courses both on different database flavors.

Very cool. I mean, there are so many different branches we can go down in this conversation, I feel like. But, you know, again, just kinda high level thinking about, like, the landscape. If I think about TryHard Studios, I know that the company is still pretty young at this point, but Yeah.

Not even a year old.

Not even a year old. Right? So it it seems like courses are the bread and butter, obviously, as a developer audience. It's interesting to hear you'd say that you you do invest your time in open source software. How how do you think about that? Like, purpose does that serve for you or for the company? Is it about just staying fresh that, like, you're teaching technical topics, be be in it, credibility, being part of the Laravel community. Like, where does that piece fit in for you?

Yeah. All of the above. It keeps me in the game, which I think is important for an educator to, like, actively be a practitioner as well. So it keeps me doing that. It also like, it's it's top of funnel.

Is YouTube the primary channel for you, Aaron? Or is it YouTube and Twitter?

Yeah. I would say it's YouTube and Twitter. At the end of last year, the YouTube kinda fell off as I was producing the Postgres course. And so it's real hard to do, like, you know, a 20 videos on a course and then also do a weekly yeah. A weekly video. Erin. You are an animal. It's tough. And so, like, last year

I do, like, one in

a week. Yeah. Yeah. The high performance SQLite course had a hundred videos, and I think the mastering Postgres had, like, a 20. And we did those, you know, back to back within six months. And so the YouTube fell off a little bit. But, yeah, I would say that I would say that YouTube and Twitter are probably the main drivers of of purchases to those courses.

Yeah. And and for you, Marie, we we talked about YouTube. Is that is YouTube the big one, or is there another channel that is working for you?

I'd say YouTube's the big one for sure. It's where, yeah, most people it's a search engine. Right? They're just how the heck do I do this in Notion?

And Yeah. What what's the flow? Like, they watch your video, then do they join an email list? Is there free off like, how do you get people to buy? What's the order there?

Yeah. And it it's tricky too because, obviously, Notion Mastery is at a slightly higher price point. And so usually, the flow might be someone watches a video, then they're like, oh, wait. This video is helpful. Go down the rabbit hole, maybe watch a couple other videos.

Does more of the purchase flow go through the search query? Like, people are searching for Notion stuff? And how much of purchases are people just knowing of you as a personality? Like, how much is because I'm wondering about Aaron too because my guess is that for Aaron, more of it's based on personality, but I don't know. Maybe there so for you, Murray, is it more search based?

And I'm sure it's hard to I'm it's really hard to even quantify this too. Right? And and, Aaron, I'll be curious, you know, your thoughts on that. But, like, there's a lots of people who've never heard of me. I can go on the Reddit. I'll answer questions, and people are like, who are the top Notion people? And, like, Thomas Frank will get mentioned, tons of people will get mentioned, and my name doesn't show up in there. Wait. Like, no problem. That's that's totally fine. You send me to

that thread, and I will make sure that it gets mentioned.

I know. I need to, like, yeah, send send my my fellow

friends there. Right now. Who are the top 10 Notion people?

So that's another point. We actually get a lot of people in their intake form saying that they searched ChatGPT for Notion courses, and they found us. Interesting. We've been around long enough. We've got enough, like, SEO juice and kind of, you know, enough blog posts on there and and notoriety, and we embed our YouTube videos in our blog posts. So I think we've just we kind of been around the longest that there's there's sort of like that search engine juice that we still get from

Oh, you're number one. I just searched. Who are the top 10 Notion influencers? Number one, Marie Pullian, a prominent Notion ambassador known for her comprehensive tutorials and courses that help users maximize.

Maybe it's because you're in Canada that I'm showing up. I wonder if it's still the same.

This is this is just pure. Yeah, pure ranking right

here.

You know you know what's so interesting to me about YouTube right now? And so I of the four of us, I I definitely have, like, the, like, the the the least amount of reach. Right? Like, the three of you have much larger audiences and and been around longer and developed your your audiences more. But I what I'm actually seeing on YouTube now for for me with a relatively small audience, especially on YouTube, is that it's like the one platform that seems to work for me to reach totally new people Yes.

Absolutely. I'd agree with that.

Is that how it's working for you, Aaron? Like, I said earlier, I think a lot of people are coming to your courses because of you, the personality, but you must be that the algorithm must be helping you a lot in the PHP world. Like, I think your first video that really popped that I remember was that PHP is cool again, or or or maybe it was that one with the meme where you were looking back. Is am I right? Am I in the

Yeah. Both of those both of those popped off. I think it was PHP doesn't suck anymore. And then the other one was PHP on the front end. It was a LiveWire video. But honestly, the first one that popped off was the first video I ever did, which was like a tour of Laravel. It was like a thirty minute video. I had never done YouTube before, and it got like a hundred thousand views. And it just was like it just totally took off. And I think there are a few reasons.

I am happy. And I'm like,

oh, okay. Great.

Well, let's do

it then. Because I you know, there was one time I felt so horrible. I forgot to say, like, me and Steve in a tweet. And I called him, and I was like, dude, I'm so sorry. I know that we both worked on this. And he's like, listen. You've got to stop. I do not care. And I'm like, oh, well, great, because I forgot. So, yeah, we we've doubled down on that personal Especially

year one. It's like this is this is you're just laying the foundation and

There could be properties that it makes sense to be a little more nameless. Like, Screencasting.com is a pretty good standalone property. The the database courses, it does rely a lot on the individual, the teacher, the person. And so, like, I think a big reason Kent C. Dodds does so well in courses is people know, like, and trust Kent C. Dodds. And so Yeah. That's kind of the pattern that I'm I'm after as well.

I also wonder if this is why this is not a slight. Uh-oh. But the

Now get ready for a slight.

Yeah. The

official, like, YouTube channels for some well known, like, programming things have don't have very high views. Mhmm. So, like, they're covering the same material as you. But I sometimes go there. I'm like, what? Like

They're just not Aaron Francis.

I mean, it's it's just not a person. But Yeah. Wonder if

it's because it's not under that person or, like, people just aren't as interested in following a corporation. You know?

Yeah. I mean, when I did it for the previous company I was at, it worked really well, but it was just me. I was the whole channel.

Mhmm. And we

would, you know, we would, from time to time, have other people on, and the videos did fine. But there's there was a very clear difference between when I did a video and when we put out some other, you know, corporate whatever whatever. And I think it just goes back to people want to feel connected to people. And so if you're trying to make your channel, like, very corporate or sterile, I just don't understand why that would ever work. And that's a huge risk for a company because it does require a personality.

I think we were saying on on a previous episode of this, like, it does seem really difficult to sort of, like, outsource the person on the camera on on YouTube for your company if if it's not one of the founders or one of the key people in in the company. But and also, like, it goes back to that algorithm thing. Like, I'm not usually one to to really want to, like, rely on an algorithm or trust these algorithms, but it does seem like YouTube is unique. Like, what you're just saying that, like, people on a on a personal level, on a content level, they connect with other people. So that works just on a human level, but that also seems to be like what YouTube wants to push on on their algorithm.

Is it the same for you, Marie? Like, your YouTube channel is under your name. Right?

Yes. Duke it is? Yes. Because I had that debate where I was like, okay, if I'm going all in, like, do I need to, you know, kinda choose a new handle and what's that gonna look like? But so I, you know, created playlists that were Notion Mastery and kinda changed up the header and stuff, but it's still under my brand.

And I Probably nothing probably nothing there. I don't mean Just a coincidence.

And it was like, oh, there's something about the way that I approach information. And so a lot of my early videos are just me, like, describing my own personal challenges. I'm like, I might do it this way, or this is just the way my brain works. So I was being really honest about the weird quirks or sort of the way I would approach things or the fact that I really need visuals for comprehension. So the ability to make my data visual in a way that kind of clicked for me was a very common challenge with other people with ADHD.

Yeah. That authenticity is hard to to duplicate, I think.

Is is that one of those things that, like, over because you've been at this, you know, several years. Is that one of those things where you started to, like, really lean into that angle of your content? Or, like, what were some of the the things that started to click where it was, okay, if I if this becomes more of a part of the workflow or part of the playbook on YouTube that that seems to work. Can you look back on, like, any milestones where, like, things start to started to really click when you did this or that?

I mean, definitely getting diagnosed for me was like a massive, like, holy shit, everything clicked into place, like even why I chose Notion, why I was really good at it. Like it was being able to bring my, like, web design UI, UX background or obsession with design and how things work and workflow. Like it all kind of made sense that Notion was the right tool for me and my brain. So just understanding that it was like, oh, my brain works a little different. But now that I know why and I had words for it and understood kind of how the symptoms can manifest, I stopped kind of fighting against my nature.

Who loves food prep.

Exactly. Who who wants big visual inspiring images at the top of my pages that for other people are like, you're wasting space. So I'm getting people to almost, like, self journal, and I think of it as a self discovery process. Do you need this information? Is this even helpful to you? If not, just delete it. Cut it out. I really leaned into that idea of forget trying to build an all in one system. Build a system that works for your brain. And that's gonna require feedback loops.

I love that. Like, it and, again, like, this topic that I've been thinking lot about lately is the creator and, like, that tension of being a creator and being a business owner. And what you're just describing, it sort of makes me think of, like, like, stand up comedians. You hear them talk all all the time about, like, their career took off when they when they leaned more into themselves and on on stage, you know, More honest, more more personally honest and and all that. And like that's what starts to really click with audiences.

Yeah. I think they're definitely at odds. I don't think they have to be as at odds as some people on Twitter like to make it out to be. So there's this whole contingent on Twitter that's like, just ship anything as fast as possible. Who cares if it sucks?

Mhmm. It comes with that brand, that quality built in. You know?

Yeah. If we're talking about building a brand, which includes a personal brand, I want that brand to be Aaron does really good work and tries really hard, and the things he puts out are good. And so there's definitely a line that you have to cut it off at, but I think I think the line is much further into quality than the average indie hacker on Twitter would have you believe.

Yeah. I always laugh at these these Instagram ads I'm getting where it's like, you can have your own AI video avatar and push out a hundred posts a day. And they're like, that's the extreme version of this, which is like Yeah. Dude, that's like terrible. Who wants to watch that?

And it it does seem like in this kind of business, whether it's courses or content and YouTube workshops, all this kind of stuff, it's like, it's so hard to break through Mhmm. Today. Because there there's so many people doing everything, whether it's this or or SaaS or anything. And that I think at a certain level, like, the creativity and and your unique voice and your unique take on it, that's what gets people's attention. Like, when I think back to all the years of, like, when when I sort of, like, tried to, like, I don't know, like, hammer on some, like, business marketing funnel versus when I'm just creating something that I think is awesome.

That that's true for the types of businesses that Marie and I are running. I don't think that that is necessarily true for a b to b SaaS, you know, like Transistor, for example.

Like Mhmm.

You know. So I think different different types of businesses require different strategies. And for the one the the type of business that Marie and I are in, in my opinion, relies a lot on, like, integrity of the person. Like, people go to Marie because they trust her to teach them the thing. Mhmm. And that comes after a long time of not crapping out AI avatar videos. Right? That comes after a long time of Marie saying, this is how I work. Oops. This didn't work for me.

Although, I keep revising my opinion on this because for a while, like Rob Walling had always said, his personal brand didn't affect his SaaS at all. And sometimes I think I just like naturally kind of fall in line behind people's opinions. Like, oh, yeah. Like, that must be the way it is. And then Tyler Tringes started challenging me on that.

But Yeah. So maybe you're kind of on that spectrum, but not all the way over to, like, Salesforce or something.

But even then, like, we've had we've had government people in the US government that have signed up for their department. And they've it's amazing how people are like, it could be something as like, I read your article on Hacker News ten years ago, and you I've just been following your journey since then. So these things can show up all the time.

Yep. The SaaS thing built on an audience, I I get the the point. I think it's true to an extent that, like, personal audience is not gonna drive the growth long term for for a SaaS or b to b or even a b to c SaaS. But I do think that folks like you, Justin, or or Rob, or or any of these any like the few people that we know who have an an audience and a SaaS, I do think that it's a jump start in the beginning, especially in the first year, that can get you to whatever zero to to 10 to 20 to 50. Yeah.

I think this is the the narrative I'm challenging, though, because I believe that in the beginning too. Like, our first hundred customers were largely from my audience. But I've just now seen like how long have we been around? Since 02/2018. So now it's what is that? Six years?

Some number of

years. Number of It's

working. Working. Like, there's still a big percentage, and all of these things are additive. Like, it's like, where do you get your customers? Well, you know, we wanna say it's all from search, but really it's like, no.

But Sure.

Overall, I think it's been a net positive.

You know, for for both of you, Marie and and Aaron, I I always like to sort of, peer into, like, what it's like to work in your business.

Yeah. Can you show us around the room right now?

Just Don't. You can't you don't want you won't you don't want that.

I I literally have on my floor out of out of the frame here, I have probably 20 envelopes that I need to open, like mail that I it's just on the floor.

Mail I never open. It's like

Mail is my nemesis. Paper, just no.

Yeah. Exactly. Oh, is that a tax thing? No. Yeah. Yeah. No. But I like, what especially for a creator style business like like yours, what does it look like from a routine standpoint or or from a month to month? Like, which projects are you focused on? Are I because from the outside looking in, I'm picturing a lot of jumping around. Like, alright. We got this course. I'm gonna focus on that for two months. And then I'm gonna focus on the YouTube channel. And I'm gonna focus on this workshop.

This will

be fun because I feel like Aaron and I probably work so differently.

You What's Notion? Yeah.

So what's Notion? There's a I mean, there's a lot of bouncing around, and certainly, like, both Ben and I are very much, like, what is interesting to me in this moment? Like, it it's, like, a nervous based nervous system based interest, what's catching my attention right now. We do have to be very careful about being clear. Okay, this month, what is our focus?

But again, I I come back to that, like, you know, you're talking about, like, well, follow where your energy is is leading your or interest or mood. Right? But, like, that's, like, actually strategically the way that this business works. Right? It it does depend on you and and where your mind and energy is at, and that's good for the business. Right?

Absolutely. Mhmm. Okay. Marie, we're not that different after all. You know? You know? I expected I

It's very different. It's very different.

I expect it a lot more. Like, I go to the Notion. I, you know, live by the Notion, die by the Notion. It's, you know, it's alright. I'm also very vibes based and vibes based within a project usually.

And then do a lot. Crisis first, and then you record the videos.

Yeah. All morning and into the afternoon is existential crisis. And then at 02:30 or three

If that was me, I'd still be sitting there.

Oh, it's brutal.

It's brutal. And then you gotta, like, well, I'm going home at 06:30 to, you know, see the kids and put them down for bed. I guess I better record some goddamn videos. And then you just, like, power through them. And so I wish there was a better way. Maybe there is, but I haven't found it yet. So far, it's just kinda like vibes.

I run into that a lot. I I I you're I'm glad you brought that up. I do wanna ask about sort of like like sort of like the dark side of all this a little bit. Like, when does it feel like a grind? And and maybe in the past, when

have we fallen? Always. Yeah.

Was gonna say. Grinding. There's a

lot of grinding. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, lately, I've been working on this this instrumental editor, like a block editor, a Notion style editor for for Rails, like a component.

What's Notion?

I miss this Notion thing.

I don't know.

That's my joke.

But it's this thing that I like, the more I work on it, the more time I spend on it, the harder it gets. Like, it's a really technically difficult thing to build. But I'm I'm constantly, like, 70% of the way there. I can't just give up now because then the whole thing just gets shelved. So then I just keep pushing to try to get to a milestone where it's like, this is almost releasable.

I mean, I'm interested to hear what you guys think first. I I I personally because I I did courses for a period of my indie business life, and I found it exhausting. I just it felt like every launch, I'd finish the launch, and then it'd be I'd have to immediately think about the next launch. And it's launching is Have

you tried not launching? Well,

that's why Notion Mastery seems so great. It's like one thing. I just I had to keep relaunching, especially marketing for developers. I just felt this constant, like and finding new channels for it. And I did a, you know, I did a version just for what's Noah Kagan's thing?

AppSumo.

AppSumo. And I just found it really tiring, personally.

I'm designing the business model to match your vibes and energy. Knowing that all the energy it takes to go into a lunch and be on and teaching, I was like, I can't do that, but could I commit to one live event a week on office hours? Yes, I could do that. So we actually restructured Notion Mastery. I mean, it's kind of always been a bit self study with with live components, but one of the major changes we made when Ben came back to the business was Ben is so good in the moment, like, turn on the camera and troubleshoot in real time.

Do you find that, you know, most people come into your ecosystem, like, they come for Notion, but then maybe they're staying for community or they're staying for connection with with

%. We get that all the time. Like, I did not expect what what I signed up for for sure. I think right off the bat, like, one of the projects that we did was a onboarding revamp because we get people coming in hot. They're coming into a it's a year long program, right?

here with you Thanks for all your money. Get to work.

It's very, very confronting. And so I was like, how can we make this more approachable, more fun, treat it like a journey? So we actually revamped that content to talk about what does it mean to approach something with a beginner's mind. You're actually learning adaptive skills and technical skills at the same time, which is super challenging. So how can we make sure that those feedback loops and making mistakes is actually part of the process?

It's super interesting how it's like Notion is sort of just like the surface level thing that attracts the audience, but but really what you're teaching is like organizational habits or ways to think about this or that or project management or whatever. And and it's like you you know, if your if your course was just like general project management course or organizational course, that wouldn't be as interesting. Right? But it's sort of like Notion is sort of like the thread that brings everyone.

Sell them what they want, give them what they need kind of thing. Yeah.

What about you, Aaron? Do you ever get tired?

Am I ever not tired is a better question. I am only tired. I feel like I feel like the Hulk. Like, that's my secret. I'm always mad.

The pro tip is to have a bunch of kids and, you

know Yeah. Have a bunch of kids back to back, multiples if you can. So, yeah, I think back to, like, the burnout grind question. This is something I get criticism for. I have another podcast with Ian, and Ian's always telling me, like, oh, why are you doing that? Don't do that. Just focus. And I'm like, man, if only Just

focus. Yeah.

And so the thing the thing that Ian has correctly identified but mis mischaracterized as lack of focus is after, like, for example, after Postgres, I couldn't do another course. I couldn't pick up an I couldn't pick up my SQL and be like, hooray. Let's do another 20 videos on the esoteric of databases. Like, I just can't do that. Fortunately, I have a Steve who kind of feels the same way, who's like, hey, we have a lot of opportunities here.

like momentum building. Right? You're, like, stacking, like, oh, it injects this little excitement, and it sort of

Yeah.

You need a little bit of that.

It's nice to have, like, a fresh project. I think the the danger is, like, the next thing will save us. But, like, we don't we don't really think that way because the courses have done well. They're doing fine now. Of course, they fall off.

Yeah. I I think the the burnout thing is is a big thing, especially when you're on camera. Like, I remember I went through a bout of depression while I was having to release course videos. And I just remember thinking like, dragging myself in front of the camera and being like, I knew that people were used to this sunny version of myself and having to, like, put that on as someone that was not doing good was, like, probably the hardest thing. Yeah.

Yeah. This is why I don't have that many YouTube videos.

It's almost

always hard. I mean, I wrote I recently wrote my twenty twenty four year in review, and it was just, like, the worst, hardest year of my life. And and and for many reasons, one of which was 250 database videos. I mean, there were, like, there there were times where I would go home and put the kids to bed and then just sit on the stairs and cry. Like, it's not it's not all, you know, sunshine and rainbows.

Yeah. There is something a bit more personal about the video, though, because you're on screen. Like, it's just like, blogging, I could you know, it it takes a lot of energy. But man, like, when you're the person on screen, as much as it's an act, I I still feel like vulnerable. You know? They're they're seeing me. And it just takes one person going in the comments like, Justin, you seem kinda off or tired or something. It's like, oh, shit. Like, fuck. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I was.

And it's like an impostor syndrome, like, multiplier. Right? It's it's like

Oh, yeah.

Getting the energy up just to be on camera is, like, hard enough, especially if you're not not feeling great mentally. But Mhmm. Then then it's like, you you're supposed to be the expert. You're supposed to be the the person with all the experience who's who's sharing here, and and it's just sort of a multiplier,

you know. I will say, and this is something Marie mentioned in passing earlier, there is a different form. I think YouTube is is is very amenable to this form where something like a mastering Postgres course is not. And that thing is, and Marie mentioned this earlier, she would share what she was doing. And I think that lowers, like, that lowers the bar so much because I feel like a lot of people think if I'm going to put anything out there, blog posts, package, video, whatever, I have to be the expert.

I'm I'm really glad you said that, Aaron. This is something that I've been sort of battling and and trying to work through, especially this year, especially on YouTube. Because a lot of my my videos lately are actually showing code and and building software and and that's something that I've been really, really hesitant to do in my I've been doing podcasting and video stuff for over ten, fifteen years at this point, but almost never sharing my code style and how I actually put things together behind the scenes because I'm constantly thinking about that imposter syndrome, especially for software developers. And I know that there are many that are so much more experienced in different areas. You know?

Mhmm.

You know? Yeah.

But it's it's the kind of thing that, like, it just really works for me, and it's actually worth sharing, you know. So it it it's like one of those these lessons that I just keep constantly have to read

and best types of content.

Like Yeah.

Totally. Really works for me. I love it, and it's a little bit weird. Just lean into that as much as you can. Yeah. Lean in.

Yeah. I think one of the things that helped me get out of depression was I started doing these live streams called dumb programmer questions or something. And it was just so nice to be able to. And I always knew more than I let on, but it was so nice to kind of just play somebody that didn't know anything and livestream it. And it was so vulnerable, and people were so helpful that it was it was just this really healthy experience of because you kind of let there's two versions of myself probably.

And there's something really valuable content wise, like what Marie was saying earlier about like watching someone else learn live or watching someone else run into a a snag or a bug and fix it live or figure it out live. Like, that just just the process of figuring it out live is valuable to the viewer. You know?

How much do you guys all like attention? Oh,

what are we supposed to say? Not very much? Is that is that is that the correct answer?

Aaron and I like attention, and and Brian and Marie are not as predisposed to it. So that's why I'm curious. But, yeah, how much how would you answer that question?

Marie, you go first. All attention's on you.

Yeah. Not comfortable with attention. When I was first doing this, the Notion Mastery course, it was Joel Hooks that was like, you gotta start a YouTube channel now. Like, this is a lightning in a bottle moment. You gotta start a YouTube channel. And I was like, oh, YouTube? Are you kidding me?

Joel Joel is so good for that.

He knew exactly. Like, of course, it makes sense if you're doing software demo. Like, you need a video format. Of course, it makes sense. So I was really resistant to the idea at first, but I committed to doing video every week for twelve weeks.

Is is the most of the friction before you get into it? Like like, do you like it when a video gets a bunch of views and comments? Like, do you like that attention? Or how does it feel for you?

I love feeling like it's had impact. Like, oh, man. Yes. Someone's like, thank you. That's exactly what I needed. I'm like, yes. But it's not like

I don't know how you guys think about this. I I completely resonate with that. Like, in in the real world, in real life, I'm the quietest person in the room. And and also, like, speaking on stage at conferences is something I'm terrible at. I like, seeing people live is I have a real problem with it. But being on a podcast with thousands of listeners or being on even, like, a live webinar or something, like, with thousands

of people. Eyeballs. Right? It's fine. Yeah. You

know? You

know, I I don't know if you think about this, especially like, I have a hard time when people I know, even my family and, like, friends who are not in our industry, when they, like, find my YouTube videos or even, like, see my my tweets and stuff or or find my podcast. Like, I don't want them to to tune into that stuff.

Like Look away. Don't look

at me. Like, look at the photos of my kids and and the vacation stuff, but, like, this is for our people. And, like, I I wish there was a total separation. I don't know if you guys think the same way.

We have a severance chip for that

if you think

Exactly. Yeah. How

have you dealt with attention, Aaron? Like, I because I like it, but there are times where it can become you know, there's even I have my limits. So how do you what how do you deal with attention in general, do you think?

I I don't mind the attention at all. I think there's a difference between, like like, when we get together with friends, I don't feel like I need to be the center of attention or be, like, the funny guy. I'm very confident in in being quiet or being, you know, the funny guy if the situation calls for it. But when I get on stage, I feel so comfortable. I feel like this is Can you give me some of that?

Can I

just take

a little little Awesome?

I love it. So, like, being an emcee at a conference and, like, having to just think on your toes, love it. Going to a Wow. Wedding reception and giving a toast, you know, without really expecting you were gonna give a toast, love it. I think it's great. Wow.

Standing up in front

of a bunch of people and, like, trying to corral the masses, love it. Think it's so fun. So Yeah. Those things, like, I super duper love. But in terms of wanting to be the center of attention, I don't actually like that too much. I am, in fact, an introvert and would so much rather be alone. Like, I would just rather be alone by myself all the time. But when, you know, when duty calls, I'm like, hell yeah. Let's get on a stage, man. This sounds great.

You know, Justin, to your question about, like, how do we feel with the results or or the or the numbers or what we see after publishing something, I think it's like, yeah. I get kind of excited when something I post gets a lot of views or likes or retweets or whatever. Like, I think that's good, but it's not so much about the attention. It's about something I created resonated with

Mhmm.

Some other people. Whether whether that's a piece of software, whether it's an idea that I shared in a tweet, or a song I wrote or or something that, like, I created. Like, I was excited about it because I created it. So somebody else feels the same. Like, that's interesting to me. The the audience numbers don't really matter. But from a marketing standpoint, it's it's nice if if it can be distributed, you know, somehow to the to the right people. You know?

I think another thing that, you know, people that are thinking about doing content that keeps them from doing content is they're worried about the negative attention. Has there been experiences with negative attention that that you've had?

I mean, definitely when I started my my YouTube channel, and, like, I don't know if guys experienced this, but, like, you'd often get comments about your appearance as a as a woman on YouTube and that sort of thing. Like, I couldn't take this video seriously because her hair is ratty and, like, just, like, rude, just, like, stupid comments. And it it took a lot to you kinda have to have a bit of a thick skin, I think, when you're when you're on a platform like YouTube. And I do think that sort of thing keeps people from putting themselves out there. But it's, like, in any business that relies on scale, like, you are going to get feedback and you're gonna get people that there is no resonance there.

I think that's the hardest part. If you're putting out content with any point of view, there are gonna people that don't like you.

Yes. You have to get comfortable not being liked. Yeah.

And I find that difficult. I really wanna be liked. And so when there's that feeling of, like, these people don't like you. And then also people that are public personalities, there tends to be a lot of meta conversations about you, where people are talking about you in a kind of a third person kind of way. Like

That's when you know you've made it. I know. Yeah.

Yeah. Actually, Justin, I wanted to ask you about the the same question. Like, how do you think about the things that you put out there? From from what I can tell that, you know, the the content when it's sort of like either on your personal newsletter or YouTube or something like that, it seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, it's like you're going for like conversation starters. Right?

It's almost all driven by curiosity, which is which is hard because sometimes people think like I'm, like, creating stuff to get views or whatever. And I'm like, dude, like, my stuff is almost anti popular a lot of times. Like people a lot of people are just not curious about the same things. And some of it's upsetting. Like, I had that realization the other day.

Why wouldn't we talk about it?

Like, why wouldn't we talk about it? It Why don't we

talk about how old we are?

I couldn't

Nobody wants to talk about that weird. Like, it was surprising to me to be in the midst of people and see them like, oh, wow. Actually, this topic really makes people upset. And then it made me second guess maybe sometimes the way I put stuff out there. So a lot of it for me now is curiosity driven.

I mean, Justin, like like some, you know, like, meta for this podcast. But, like, we we definitely gotta do some episodes, like, not about business. Just talking about what we're into away from the screens. You know?

Yeah. I think so. I think so too. I I but there's limits even to that. You know? Yeah. But it's nice in a way that I don't I don't really think about it too much. I'd like my email newsletter list to be bigger, but it's just so so all over the place that it I I know why it's not growing. So

I think for both of you, Aaron, and and especially Marie, like, I'm I'm always jealous of of folks like you who have these audiences who've been so focused in one topic area for so many years. I I I mean, I'd imagine that, like, most of the people on the list for Notion Mastery obviously came in around Notion and something related to that. Like, I think about my email list. It's gone through so many iterations over the years. I've had to, like, completely nuke my my list, like, multiple times because it's, a totally different audience or people have dropped off and lost interest, you know.

I've had to do that too. Right? Because, like, Notion Mastery was built on my personal email list, but now we have a separate Notion Mastery list. Before that, it was digital strategy school. Before that, it was web design.

I mean, like, eight, ten years ago, like, I was known as, like, the productized services guy. Like, all my content, I had a course on it, and, like, people were coming in for that. And, like, web designers and copywriters turned productized services. And, like, now in the past five, six years, like, really, I'm just mostly talking about software and UI, UX design and stuff like that and bootstrapping. And, like, a lot of my audience is like, well, that that's not interesting to me.

So Which is great because you don't wanna get captured. Right? You don't wanna get captured by your own audience and then do something that you don't wanna do because you have a big mailing list. So You feel like you're supposed to. Yeah.

I love that.

Sorry. Like but this is this is my You know? Yeah.

I think that's the one thing that's because we we should wind down here. But I think that's the one thing that's really come out of this conversation is that idea, Aaron, of the small view is like, yeah, you got to be known as the database guy. But the bigger view is, well, I've got to do this for a long time. And there's there's a danger of, like, finishing that Postgres course and then jumping right into another database course for yourself. And I think the advice that's kind of out there is like, no, you want to be known as the database guy.

I I just like how Tryhard Studios, the brand yeah, of course, people know you, Aaron, but it's still, like, generic enough that this is a company that just creates awesome learning resources across a variety of, like, technical developer topics.

Mhmm.

And it it I feel like you can definitely keep expanding the circles and and the areas that you get into.

That's why we went with the the studio's suffix because our goal is to, like, have a collection of both courses and hopefully, this year, products as well. And so it's not like we don't want to just be pigeonholed. We want to, like, continue to explore, find new things, and exploit. So, like, we're always out there looking around for new stuff, you know, exploring. And if we find a good one, we'll mine that vein, and we'll see what's there.

I've always loved that model of like a sort of like a portfolio model for a company. You know?

Alright. You two. This was awesome. We got we wanna have the people back that have been on the panel. So because this this feels very much like we're at a conference, and we're now entering, you know, hour two of hanging out at the bar. And it's

one all the way.

In the morning. Yeah.

Mhmm. Exactly.

But thanks again for being on the show.

Thanks for having us. This is super fun.

Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Thanks, guys.