
Welcome to The Panel where bootstrap founders talk about building a better business and a better life. I'm Justin Jackson, the cofounder of Transistor.fm.

And I'm Brian Casel. I'm a product designer, developer, just launched Instrumental Components. And maybe today, we'll talk about what I'm doing next.

Yeah. Alright. So last episode was a lot about me and Transistor and the podcast industry. I had lots of great feedback from folks about that episode. We also talked about the format of the show, how difficult it was to get panelists every episode.
And we wanted to try something new for this episode, which was to record it live here, June 5, '12 '15 PM Pacific. And we've already got some people in live chat. If this works out, we might do it again. So here we are. We'll see if the folks in chat have things to say as we go along.

Yeah. I'm excited for this new format. I like, to be honest, like, I'm not expecting a whole lot of live interaction. There there might be a few people. I I see some familiar faces in the chat already.
But I I really like this whole idea of, like, let's just record the episodes like we normally would. And and then maybe introducing, like, listener questions, audience questions, and maybe even bring people live onto the panel if and when it makes sense, you know, maybe near the end of of each episode.

That's right. Like, in the future, and maybe even this episode, if we get really crazy, we can add people as guests so I could DM somebody a link if if we're feeling like, hey, you know, you should be in this a part of this chat.

I also like the idea of the fact that we're recording it today, June 5, and we'll get this episode out, like, pretty quickly. Because, like, especially if we're talking about real time things that are happening in our world this week. So it's kind of annoying when that comes out, like, two weeks later. It's like, oh, I'm not even thinking about that anymore.

Yeah. I mean, we don't know what this is gonna become. But this could become a mashup of Bootstrapped Web, Build Your SaaS, and the panel all in one thing. We might even release more episodes. Maybe we can release weekly if we do it this way.
This is all an experiment. So let's get into it. Less stuff about me and more stuff about you. I think folks are going to want to hear how the launch of Instrumental Components went. And also, before we started recording, you said, now you're thinking about the next thing as well. So maybe for folks who don't know, what is Instrumental Components? And then maybe just talk us through how the launch has been so far.

Yeah. I mean, it's always in like, for me, it it's always interesting how, like, there's what I'm actively working on. There's also what I'm actively publicly promoting. And for the past couple of weeks and months, that's been instrumental components. But the reality has been behind the scenes, maybe equally, if not more, I I've been plotting and and researching and exploring really what I plan to do next after instrumental components.
And I feel like this week, you know, this week of around 06/05/2025 is my first, like, truly active week of, like, now I'm working on my next business. But we can we can save all that for maybe later. But, yeah, for now, let's let's unpack the launch of instrumental components. And now it is fully launched. It's out there.
You can go to it. You can go to the pricing. As of June like, the month of June, I still have the, like, the early like, the launch discount. I did change something about the pricing. We can talk more about that. Yeah. Yeah. Overall, I I would say in terms of, like, did it meet my expectations? I think so. I didn't have very high expectations for it. I would say it probably exceeded that a little bit.

What is that like not you didn't have high expectations because are you trying to protect yourself a little bit? Or is that just like what you Probably

some of that. But but also just like being real about it. So people might be wondering, like, it's it's done just about 10,000 in revenue so far. Okay. In the first it's been so I started inviting customers, what, three three, four weeks ago. That's that's been okay, you know?

So $10,000 in revenue so far. And you you kind of rolled out the launch. And that's with a waiting list of how many people?

About 800.

Okay. That

So, like, that's that's where it feels like it underperformed. If if you just look at the numbers, like, I I don't know. Like, what's the number of customers on that? Like, 20? Something like that?

I mean, to me, that seems pretty reasonable. Did did you happen to catch Aaron and Ian on the Mostly Technical podcast talk about that much?

By the way, Aaron and Ian, I thought that was one of your best episodes yet.

Yeah.

Absolutely. As I mean, Aaron, as as believe me, I've I've been there, like, as as painful as, like, the, you know, the the flat launch thing goes. But I don't I don't see it as a failure anyway. That's a whole other story.

But I wonder if air if Ian's point because one of the things Ian was saying and Ian also just had this big session with Caleb who does Flux, which

is a similar product. That was almost like too long. I couldn't get into that.

But I'm wondering if there's anything there. Like, are you thinking about this as a info product, which typically you launch like a book or a course, and it's like a bunch of sales in the first three days, and then it goes down. And then you have to relaunch it every year. You have to do a

Yeah. Okay.

So that's

an interesting question. Because it doesn't Yeah.

And Ian was saying, maybe some of these products you need to consider, you know, you need to consider them to be actual products. So like a SaaS product, you launch it and, you know, out of the gate, you get a certain amount of sales, but then it builds gradually over time as you get all the channels kind of so which do you feel like instrumental components is you're gonna treat it more like a product, or what's your feel?

Great question. Because there's so much wrapped into that in terms of what were my expectations, what are my future plans for it, and also how I'm pricing it. Because I did change from the recurring model to lifetime. I just made that change a few days ago. Okay.
So first of all, expectations. When I started building Instrumental Components, which is, you know, a components library for Ruby on Rails, I I started working on that around the fall of twenty twenty four. So like maybe eight eight, ten months ago. And so I I we talked about this last week, but like so much has changed in that Just in the last eight months. Just in the industry, in in my world, in in everything.

By that, you mean like AI or

anything AI and like how things are built. That that That's just like one thing that's in the landscape. But when I started building it, I I was like, I just gotta get back into the rhythm of building and launching new products. I'm coming off of four or five years of just being solely focused on Clarity Flow, my SaaS business. Right?
And I made the decision almost two years ago now that, like, it's time for me to just make like, just just let Clarity Flow sort of run and do its thing, and now it's time to focus on the next thing. And and it actually took me well over a year before I got the energy or got the direction in place to say, okay, this is gonna be a new product that I launch. And settled on, I should do a Rails components library product. Since I build in Rails, it's sort of like leveraging my byproducts. I'm doing a lot of projects right now with clients.
I can extract components out of that. That's exactly what I did. From that sense, it was like a convenient type of product for me to build and launch. In terms of setting my expectations, I never expected or intended for this to be my new next big focus or next big long term business thing where like, now I'm gonna be the Rails components guy for the next five, ten years. Like, no way.
Like, no. It's just that I just don't even think that the the potential for that type of business is even there, let alone my interest in being that guy.

Okay.

It to me, the get go, it's always been like, let me try to just get back to building and shipping a small product. Let me go back to the first stair in the staircase. This is not a SaaS business where I'm like, let's launch a SaaS and focus on it for the next three years, whatever. So there's that. And then there's also just the expectation of how big is the Rails space and the market for this really, right?
We all know that like, yeah, Rails is really mature, but it's not the most popular framework anymore. Not even by a long shot. And then even within that, it's like how willing to pay our our what's the willingness to pay for paid components libraries like this? I still I do I do think that there's a case to be made that, like, there is a lack of quality UI components libraries in the Rails space, especially ones that are, like, come pre wired up with Rails and stimulus and, you know, all the things. So I think it I think it like, I think it's a good product for Rails.
But even like and and then there's there's also just like the I don't have a super large audience. I have some some audience. Some people have been following me for for many years. Right? Like my personal email list is I mean, I've I've I've I've like, you know, do you call it?
Like pruned it quite a bit over the years. But like it's it's probably around like 5,000 people. And then and then my my Twitter following is not huge. People have been following my podcast for years, but it's not super large. But then even within the the few thousand people who might even know who I am and what I do have been following my story. Even within that pool, a very small percentage of them are actually Ruby on Rails developers.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So like there there might be people who like the look of instrumental components, but they're like, that's interesting. I just don't build in Rails. So it it wouldn't be even compatible with them.

Okay. Let let let's just pause here because I want to react to some of that stuff. I think some thoughts on the top of my head, and maybe on other people are thinking about this too, is one question would be, why not just go for projects that you think have the potential to be big? So why are you are you limiting yourself in saying, oh, I'm just going to do this. It's just small.
Why not just say, you know what? I'm gonna only invest in things that have the potential or capacity to be a bigger bigger in terms of an engine that could actually, you know, pull your whole business.

Good question. I think I think what I'm thinking about now in terms of like the the thing that I'm starting to really invest in going forward, that's more where my mindset is at. Like, whatever I'm starting now should be bigger, a bigger commitment, multi year investment. Right? But the last two years, I was in a reset mode.
Yeah. Because I had started Clarity Flow, which started under the name Zip Message in '20 like, it was, like, January of twenty twenty one was when I started that business. Yep. Took a little bit of investment on it and and went, quote, unquote, all in on it. You know?
Still still a decent SaaS business, but not it it didn't it definitely did not meet my expectations. Did not meet, like, exit velocity or, you know, where it's like it just it just got to a point where, like, it did not make financial sense for me to remain all in on it. I've I've talked about that ad nauseam, like, on Bootstrap Web and everything. Although,

I still think folks might be interested in that because really, the tension I'm hearing here, and I think this is just what we all feel is I just was listening to the Steve Ballmer interview on the Acquired podcast. And Steve Ballmer's like, listen, every Microsoft success like Azure, everyone thinks that just popped off in the last few years. And now it's made Microsoft the most valuable company in the world. He said we were working on that for eight years before anybody even heard about It he says things just take time. And a lot of the stuff that we see that's a success.
He also mentioned like OpenAI. Like OpenAI has been going since what? 2016 or something. And so there's this tension, I think, especially for bootstrappers, because we need to be able to make money, which is like, you know, the question for you would be, if Brian had pushed on clarity flow more and not gotten distracted with this other stuff, would that have been a better strategy than going and doing this other stuff?

What I would say to that is that that would that would be an excellent point to be made if I was in year one or year two, and maybe in maybe in year three of Clarity Flow. I did not come to the conclusion because because for the first three plus years, I did not do anything else. I I sold everything else.

Yeah.

Yeah. I I literally sold AudienceOps. I sold Productize.

Yeah.

Like like the course thing. I I sold that to someone else. I literally did nothing else for for over three years. Right? I did no consulting. I did I did no info products. I did no other software tools.

Mhmm.

It it it came to a point around between year three and year four. This is like now beginning of twenty twenty four. Where it's like, okay, like, what are my choices? My choices are raise more investment to to to, like, extend out the runway. Or maybe have some, like, magical thinking of, like, sometime in the next six months, we're going to rocket ship our growth where there's just no evidence that that's going to happen.
Yeah. You know? So, like, it then it was just a a thing of, like, it's look. I I gave it and and just to be clear, I still run Clarity Flow today. It's it has not even declined.
It's still growing, like, super slowly. Like like, not a successful growth rate by any means, but not declining. It's just a it's just a thing that that I I made the decision into and this is back in 2024. I made the decision that, like, don't wanna raise more investment in this. I don't wanna I I don't wanna invest more years of my career into this thing that just did not take off the way that I hoped it would.
I've already done the pivoting and the and and and the customer research and the repositioning and all that. So my decision was, like, instead of this being my % business, it has to turn into my 20% thing. You know?

I think this doesn't get talked about enough, which is there is some amount of I guess luck would be the word. But, like, the the biggest threat when you're bootstrapping is that you're gonna burn out or you're gonna go broke. So you either burn out psychologically. You know, people get the shin people get shingles. People get like

Which I did.

Wish you did.

Around that time.

Around that time. Yep. Or you run out of money. And, you know, with it with Transistor, looking back on it now, especially if you listen to those episodes that my business partner, John, and I were recording at the time, we were close to breaking. Like, it was like, this thing has to work, you know?
And it was building gradually. And sometimes you don't feel how gradual it's building. But in retrospect, we actually grew pretty fast, and we were able to get to kind of a full time income fairly quickly.

So if we Yeah.

We we built it from together from like January 2018 to 08/02/2018 when we launched. And then it took us one year after that to both go full time on it. And you look at Adam Wavin and Steve and Steve Shoger. You know, they had this financial engine that was working with their course. And that was just, you know, pulling the whole business. And that gave them time to go and explore this other stuff.

Yeah.

And so this is it's hard. Like, you never know how long it's gonna take for that financial engine to get going. And and then you also just don't know, you know, like with Clarity Flow, for example, like it might be still growing slowly, but it's like, you don't know when it's gonna get to the point where it might be able to be Mhmm. The full time thing.

It's just hard. Exactly. It it absolutely is hard. So anyway, like, that's to me, like, that whole decision logic flow, like, that that's decided and I'm way past that. That was like two years ago. Right? And so I spent the last two years, the year of 2024 and now into 2025, sort of picking up the pieces and and figuring and in the meantime, doing some consulting projects like MVPs as a service.

Mhmm.

And that's been good for cash flow, like keeping keeping the lights on and and that's you know, that covers more than half of it. But Clarity Flow still is still just something in my portfolio. It's not but it's just not enough to be my only thing. Yeah. But so then so then it was like, okay.
So what is next? And and I also made the decision sometime in the last year or two that just like and we've talked about this on this show that like, I think I'm done with the SaaS dream, if you will. Like, it doesn't like, whatever my next thing is, it doesn't have to be a SaaS business.

Mhmm.

You know? SaaS businesses are great. And I'm not against And maybe maybe I will hack on something that that becomes sort of like a SaaS business again. But like And technically, I What I build in software with Rails and whatnot, they These are SaaS applications. But I'm sort of over the idea of like, I'm gonna launch a thing that's $19.49 dollars a month.
That's gonna be the thing that sustains my next five, ten years. Uh-uh. You know? And and also, like, I'm I'm I'm also sort of the one and only time I decided to take investment was the beginning of Zip Message, which became Clarity Flow. I think I think I'm done with that route.
I what I learned was like, I'm a bootstrapper at heart. I I'm more comfortable operating from a bootstrapper's mindset. So so again, that this goes back to that question of like, what if I just went all in and put more effort in and and and and more this or that in to make that business work.

Mhmm.

But what that would have required is more investment. Yeah. There's just no way around that. Right? Because because I was spending a lot on marketing.

And

I I tried all the experiments. Like, tens of thousands on ads, on SEO, on all of it. Some things sort of worked, and some things still work for us today. We get customers mostly from SEO. Even our success, even our wins in marketing, they it still just gets us, like, x number of customers a month. That's it. Yeah. You know?

I I'm, like, of two minds about this because I think from the outside, there's part of me that's like, man, like, whenever you see anybody launch something and you're like, you think about the potential of that thing. And sometimes it feels like, oh, if they just doubled down on this and spent another, for example, instrumental components. You just doubled down on that, went to every Rails conference, got on every Rails mailing list, get you just immersed yourself just in that world. It feels like that's the that's the maybe the only or best way to truly find out what the appetite for something is in a market. Yep.
On the other hand, when John and I are building transistor, if you if you look back on that, like, John was working full time, hating it, like, going to work all day, coming home, and working on transistor. And I had just tons of different projects going to pay the bills. And it wasn't ideal. But at the time, John and I were both like, we don't know if this transistor thing's gonna work. Like, in retrospect, it was the thing that worked.
But I was, like, pushing on other stuff too to maybe like, maybe that's the thing that's gonna be Mhmm.

The

engine that drives my whole career, you know. So I think it's hard in those moments.

Yeah. And I don't wanna I really just don't wanna spend too much time talking about, like, the Clarity Flow business. But one thing that did go into that decision back in 2024 was, look, I am close with lots of other SaaS founders. Yeah. And I and I know their story and their MRR graphs from before they even started their businesses.
Yeah. And and it's just just natural for me to compare my business to the tens or twenties of people that I know and just look at the time frames. Like, they they crossed this threshold in half the time that Clarity Flow did. It's just math on the page. You just can't ignore some realities in terms of growth rates and all that.
And whatever. You could pick apart all the different strategies like, oh, I focused on this or that or the wrong positioning on this or that. But Yeah. At the end of the day, like, time time is time. Like, it you know?

The the way to think about it too is I mean, you and I have used this metaphor of home runs versus line drives. And we've kind of joked that maybe we're both kind of like line drive people. But the difference between like going up to bat and like hitting something like maybe Clarity Flow is is a line drive. It's just like you launched it. It has customers.
And it's growing. But in terms of it being like the big engine that's going to drive your business and your family and everything, it's just not there. And so in that sense, it makes sense to keep swinging.

Yeah. And that's that's what I came to. And then so with instrumental components, I the I was I was never expecting it to be, again, like an all in type of product or business. I Yeah. Really, my only intention in even starting it starting it is, like, I need to I need to just start and launch a new product again just to get back into that rhythm, get that muscle.
Mhmm. Because I I mean, I I I'm sort of like, I can't believe it took me until 2025. Because I I don't think that I even launched any paid products since the beginning of Zip Message. Yeah. I think instrumental components was the first thing that I actually said like, hey, do you wanna buy this? Mhmm. You know? So

And that muscle is is super important. Yeah. This might be a good time to just bring in some of the chat here because I think it's I think it's interesting. We got we got Dave Junta in the comments here. One thing that Dave said was regardless of whether or not a business reaches escape velocity, you still need the drive and motivation to take it all the way. And I think that's another factor that people don't talk about.

This is alright. So I just wanna I don't wanna come off as, like, too defensive on this or anything like that. But there's a general not in not not necessarily just here, just in general. I've I've heard I hear you know, talking in public about about businesses on podcasts or on Twitter.

Mhmm.

It's it's just impossible for anyone on the outside looking in to know what goes into every individual Oh,

absolutely.

Day to day decision. Yeah. That's number one. You you will never get even whatever you hear me or anyone else talk about on a podcast, you are hearing like 5% of the story. Mhmm. You know, as as transparent as I wanna be, like, there's just so much more. The other thing is is for me and and just thinking about new businesses going forward, I really am how do I put this? Because I there's there's a there's a balance between, like, thinking big and trying to do the next big home run

Mhmm.

With taking too big of a risk. Mhmm. And Yeah. And also, like, I'm just not of the mindset anymore, especially I'm just not under the of the mindset that, like, if I'm doing one product, like let's say instrumental components, that does not bar me from doing another product. That's what is so challenging about marketing and being public about these products.
Because to me, Instrumental Components is sort of like the perfect type of product to run as like a 20% ten ten, 20 percent maintenance mode type of product. Yeah. Yep. It doesn't have to be all in. And I don't intend to be all in on it. And I never did intend to be all in on it. Yeah.

That's such a great point about, like, what people can see publicly and what, you know, what's actually going on. I mean, I'll just speak for myself. Like, people had a sense that I was stressed out while I was building transistor. They did not know how really stressed out I was. Like, I some of that came out publicly.
But it is such a huge risk. This is the biggest risk is the ability to keep going, to not burn out, to not have to not become unhealthy, and to not go broke. Like, it's just so hard. I think one thing I've appreciated about your approach this time is you've spoken a lot about, like, listen, like, I'm up here taking swings, but I'm not going to invest so much that it kills me. I'm not gonna invest so much that it, you know, it's it ruins me financially.
And if we look at the landscape, like and again, I don't I don't anybody that stops being a founder, I never it's like, I totally get it. Like, some days I dream about going and getting a real job. You know? It's just Yep. It's tough.
Yeah. I and a lot of the success stories that we know, they they incubated a bunch of ideas along the way, like John Young Fook at Banner Bear is another one I think about. Like, even since Banner Bear, he's launched probably three or four other things. And I don't think they worked out. He doesn't really talk about them anymore.
That's kind of how it is. At Transistor, internally, we've started a bunch of things that no one heard about and then decided to shelve them. That's just kind of how it works. And really, the biggest risk is I still think the tension is interesting. Like Yeah. Do I double down and just go for it?

I think I think doubling down, like, it becomes obvious

Yeah.

When you should be doubling down. When when you are because I one one thing that I've noticed and observed with most of the successful SaaS companies, I think probably Transistor is included in this. At a certain point, it's they are successful despite their shortcomings. Mhmm. They are they are successful even even with gaps in their product.
They are successful even with only doing one or two marketing channels and not touching all of them. Yeah. People are just there's a you've talked about it a lot. Like, there's a natural wave happening in a market where, like, you're just serving. I I I actually I I wanna, like, talk about what's going forward because I feel like I'm I'm on the cusp of of a wave right now.

Yeah.

I I do wanna talk about what what I'm starting up Yeah. Going forward. Just just to tie the bow on the instrumental components thing. Yeah. I I wanted to sort of report on the pricing because we talked about that a bit in in the last in the last episode. Should it be One time. Recurring at like an annual recurring pricing or or just a one time lifetime thing. A few days ago, I decided to turn off recurring. Alright. I changed it to a lifetime license.
So and it and it's interesting. And and I've never done this before where, like, at least probably more than half of the customers did buy when it said $499 per year.

Yeah.

You know, they paid $299 for the first year. But like the thing said like, first year, and then it'll renew at $499 And most people bought at that price. So meaning I had subscriptions in Stripe. I went in and I turned off those subscriptions. They are not gonna get renewed. And then there've been a bunch of sales since then. And so now it's promoted as like it's $2.90 it's $4.99 normal price. Right now, promoted as $2.99 Yeah. Lifetime.

And what and what was the thinking behind that? What what precipitated the change?

I think I think number one, just honestly, it just the recurring thing just did not really feel right, if I'm honest, about it. I felt a little bit like, what I subscribe? Would I actually pay $500 a year for a components library? Like, if I'm if I'm honest, like, probably not. Mhmm. You know? The the only case that I would make for paying annually would be if you're an agency and you're doing lots of apps for clients

Yeah.

On on a recurring basis, then I could see the case for a recurring thing. So there's that. And then and then the other thing is, like, the commitment factor. People are gonna obviously hear this the wrong way. But I'm I'm not ending my investment or commitment to instrumental components.
Yeah. But it is a one time sale product. So I'm not gonna feel the obligation to say, like, if I'm charging annually for this, how many new components am I actually releasing on an annual basis? Like, that doesn't matter. And there's just one more thing on the is a what you're buying is version one of instrumental component.
You're everything that that is on the site right now, you are getting. And and I do intend to I I just launched two more components yesterday. Mhmm. There will be more components throughout the year. So current purchasers still get that stuff.
As long as I'm calling it one point something. Actually, right now it's like zero point. But you're you're buying that version. Maybe, huge maybe, if maybe in the future I decide like I wanna create a whole new new and improved version of instrumental components. This is gonna be the two point o. Then it's just like any other downloadable software. Past customers can like pay for the upgrade. New customers will pay full price. Mhmm. You know?
I have no immediate plans to do that anytime soon. But like, that's that's the type of product this is. It's like it's it's on the shelf over there. If you wanna buy it, it's great for Rails. I'm gonna be using it still for all my Rails projects. Mhmm. I don't know. It just feels right.

And again, like, that the launch you've done so far is nothing to sneeze at. That's that's a good that seems to me like a good line drive, especially with a waiting list of about 800 people. Yeah. That that seems about in line with what I would expect.

And also what I like about it is that, like, people find it through YouTube. Most most of the buyers for this don't know me, don't listen to this podcast. Yeah. They just found so it's so again, like, Rails is not a super popular framework as much as it used to be. Yep. But there's still a little bit of traffic that comes through YouTube, and they find my components. And and several of them have actually bought. Like

Yeah.

That's so that's a pretty cool thing that could continue to trickle in throughout the year. It's just a little thing in the portfolio.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And I think for anyone listening or watching, let's if you've if there's ways we can help Brian out, like, if you have a Rails newsletter, feature it in the Rails newsletter. If you know some people in the Rails community, reach out to them. Let's get some kind of community action going here. Community action was very helpful for me at Transistor. Just people on their own promoting us and or referring us to people with newsletters and YouTube channels and podcasts.

Alright. Let me tell you about a really interesting thing that happened this week. Okay. This is this is about going forward.

This is the new thing.

I was in the shower thinking my thinking my my typical business strategy shower thoughts.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

And it's not like this just started two days ago. I've been thinking about this for for a year or more now. But like the direction that I'm taking is, like, helping builders build with AI. Yeah. And if you are an experienced full stack developer, I wanna help you transition to the new way that software is built and that is using tools like Cursor and specific new approaches to the whole software development process now collaborating with AI.
It's just and I just think that, like, you you could you could say, like, oh, I dabbled with it six months ago, and it just didn't click for me. Like, that's fine. But just know that, like, you're still building the old way, and there is a new way now, and this is where the industry is going.

Yeah.

If you wanna deny that, you can. It's just that that's just the reality. And and so I I'm actually super optimistic about this future for how we design and build software. I think the tooling is incredible, and I and I don't think that we lose any sense of craft or taste or ambition. I think it actually maximizes that stuff.
Yes. So so I'm really excited about this whole movement. And there are different there are different there's like a Venn diagram of this where, like, you've got, like, the indie hackers, the quote unquote stupid vibe coders who who who are like, look, you could hack a a big app in a day with this. And like, yeah, you could hack on little side fun projects. But then there's also like the professionals.
Like, you know, the the the SaaS companies, the teams, the the professionals who are who are doing this for a living. And and I and I just think that there is a still a lack of content, especially content that speaks to the professional and speaks to the teams. So in in general, the the direction that I'm going is like content, YouTube content, that which could turn into training courses, workshops. But I was thinking the other day, I was like, you know, there really seems to be a need, and I'm I'm I'm sort of seeing rumblings of it with professional developers and and also SaaS teams who are who they they feel like they're a little bit behind the curve on on adopting these new ways of building.

Mhmm.

And and getting the speed benefits and getting the the product benefits. And and I was like, maybe there's a a some sort of, like maybe I can go into companies and and offer personalized workshops or or personalized training or coaching for for teams. Yeah. And and you can, like, outsource to me. Like, I'm I'm the one who's staying on top of the new approaches to building at a professional level, building with AI, and and everything that you can do with the cursors and and whatnot.

I love this for you, by the way. Just to interject, I think this is you've been talking about this forever. Of all the people in my mind in the community that have been a long time proponent of building with AI, it's you. So I think this matches up with your profile, your passion, your energy.

Thank you. I appreciate that. So I'm thinking about that on Tuesday in the shower.

Yeah.

One hour later, get an email from a friend. I I I won't share his name. I don't know if he wants to be public about this. But he runs a a successful SaaS company. He's got a small team of, like, I don't know, eight to 10 people on the team.
Yeah. A bunch of engineers. And he's like and I I have not put out publicly that I'm offering this or anything. He he sends me an email, and I haven't even spoken to him in a bunch of months. And and he his his subject line was, can you coach my team on using AI to to upgrade our our development process?
I was like, dude, like like, I'm thinking about this today. Like, what what is that? So I just had a great call with him this morning actually and and kinda kinda jamming on on, like, what a you know, what an engagement of of like this could look like. So I think that there's something there. I I also think that we are I just I I published a new YouTube video on this topic this morning.

Mhmm.

There have been a few step changes in the tooling around AI. Yep. And I think there there have been like three big ones so far, and we're we're entering the third one right now. The first one was like the just tab completion. Right? Like you're you're writing a line of code, and then it it's auto completed. You press tab. Cool. Like, that was kind of cool when it started two, three years ago.

Yep.

Then then we have, like, agent mode, which is like cursor for the past year, And that's kind of where we've been. That's where I've been now. But now there's this third mode, which sort of builds on agent mode, but it's it's a more task oriented. Like, you build out this PRD, you know, project requirements document to sort of map out, like, here's the whole product or here's the whole big feature. Let's break it out into tasks.
Let's break that out into subtasks. And and the AI is helping to write the PRD and write out the tasks and write out the subtasks and the dependencies. So you have this whole plan in place.

Yeah.

Literally a check a checklist. And then you have your AI build each feature and check off the thing in the in the checklist in an orderly professional like, this is how a professional project gets built in collaboration with the AI. Like, rather than, like, running in circles with these old random prompts all day and and, like Yeah. This is a more, you know like, so I I think and, like, so Ryan Carson just published a really great thing on this. There's a tool called Taskmaster, which which is built around the same concept.
So, like, this is, like, the newest approach. Yeah. It it, like, builds on top of what we've been doing with with Cursor and and whatnot. So, like like, this is where the industry is headed. This is what building with AI is looking like.

I think and the headlines kind of write themselves for this stuff. The like, you know, one thing a lot of devs say is I feel like I just have constantly babysit the AI. And so I would, you know, if you were offering some sort of service that's stop babysitting your copilot or whatever, I could see that being attractive. Do you have a specific offer in mind? Or is it kind of coalescing around coaching or some sort of productized service? What what do you think?

I I have no idea. It's so up in the air. I that's been my problem is, like, overthinking this for the past six months.

Yeah.

Like like, this week is the first week that I'm really starting to, like now I'm working on this direction. Yep. But I've been thinking about it for six, eight months and thinking, like, alright. Well, what does this turn into? Is it a is it a course? Is it like one of those, like, cohort based courses? Is it coaching? Is it a book? Is it here's what I know for sure. The top of the funnel is is going to probably be mostly YouTube.
I'm gonna continue to do to do content on YouTube every week. Yep. And maybe a newsletter with that. I I I need to figure out how to how to really generate a list of of people who are really interested in this stuff. So I I think like YouTube into workshops or some sort of lead magnet.
Mhmm. The other the other reality of all this is that it is changing so fast. And and that's part of what is wrapped up in the pain point for most people, companies, and developers is that, like, it is changing so damn fast. Like, I like, I personally can't believe how, like, when I'm working on software today, it looks so different than it did just twelve months ago. Yeah. You know? So I think part of this is, like, I can't just, like, invest in, like, building a whole big flagship course

Mhmm.

Around today's version of how you build because today's version is gonna be different three, six months from now. So I think it's a more fluid, like, month to month. Like, here's here's where we are in the here's what's here's what's happening on on the cutting edge. But maybe one step back from the cutting edge, like, here's here's how to make this more mainstream.

Mhmm.

Like, there's always gonna be the cutting edge stuff and, like, there's no way anyone can keep up with that.

Yeah.

But but then there's the layer of, like, okay. AI building for the rest of us. Like, I don't wanna I wanna I don't wanna completely fall behind. But I wanna make sure that whatever we are investing in is tried and tested and and sort of, like, trusted at this point. Yeah.

You know? This would be a great place for us to bring in the panel of people that have been watching live, I think. We got Adam Wavin in the chat here. We got all sorts of great people in the chat. But I'm wondering for people out there right now who are on Teams or who are building things themselves, even folks like Adam Wavin, AI is affecting everything.
You know, AI affects how people use Tailwind CSS. AI even I think what was interesting about instrumental components is that you built it to be AI first. Like, you're gonna suck all these components into your AI tool. It's going to know here's all the components that are available. And it's like an AI first way of using something external like that.
But I think everybody's at Transistor, we're thinking about this too. It's like how it's kind of been tenuous. It's like, do we really want to include this in our day to day? And what does it look like? Like

I I had a great, like, hour long conversation with with this guy today with with a friend of mine today about working with him and his team on on an engagement. And I was it was just a discovery call for me. Like, just to learn about, like, what what is the actual need? Because he approached me with this. What is the benefit or the pain point?
And and I'm starting to zero in on it. This is sort of an moment just from today, which was most people, especially employees at companies, don't have the time or the incentive to work on their workflow. Like most people, their current task that they are being paid to do is to build and ship some feature. Yep. So if they have a choice today, Thursday, should I work on that thing that we wanna ship by Monday?
Or should I spend today learning about Cursor one point o that just dropped? Or learning about this v zero tool that that people are talking about? Or seeing how maybe we should, like, retool how how we develop and plan new features with an AI first mindset? Like Mhmm. Most people don't spend time working on that. That's why most people are like sort of feel like they're behind.

Mhmm.

And frankly, like, if you're a paid developer at at any company, like, you're making the correct choice to just work on the stuff that you're being paid to do. Like, build build stuff the way that you know how.

Yep.

So the value of bringing someone like me in, or eventually this turns into a bigger company, the value is like, we're doing that that, like, workflow improvement and staying up on the latest approaches and tooling. And and so, like, I can come in and work with your team and, like, sort of observe how things are going and and maybe find some low hanging fruit, make some recommendations, offer some ideas. But just know that, like, you know, it's it's like a like a gym trainer. Right? Like, someone somebody who's just coming in, like, there's no specific, like, deliverable.
Like, by the end of this month, we're going to change everything. But, like, just every week, we're gonna we're we're my my team is staying aware. My team is is making little little changes to their form, you know, making improvements. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm not trying to turn like, create a new consulting job for myself, but I just think that, like, that's the core need.
How this how this builds out into a bigger business is a is a bigger conversation. But but for right now, like, I I think it's an interesting space to to play in and and sort of get into motion on. You know?

Okay. So the the chat kind of erupted while you were talking. I I don't know how delayed they are, but we've got Andy Miller's, like, % this. I it sounds like he's struggling with which tools to use, what AI to use. Zach Gilbert's saying as a solo dev, he feels like it's hard to keep up with everything.
And then Adam I I'm trying to get into what Adam Wathen is talking about here. And then Andy Miller is saying for the agent style coding, it only clicked for him this week. The pain point has been getting the time to experiment and getting it to work versus

That's the thing.

Yeah. Yeah. See, maybe I can just throw out one vision for what this could look like. I'm sure you've thought about this. But to me, there does need to be something like an AI for the rest of us newsletter that Yep.
I get every week, which as a CEO or a founder or a CTO, it's like, here's the stuff you need to worry about. I've I've filtered out all the what do we call them? The LLM boys or the vibe coding boys. Like, I've I've taken them all out. I've take I've gone and investigated all these crazy claims.
Here's what you need to know about if you're building real software. If you're, you know, actually creating real stuff. If you're an experienced Rails developer or an experienced Laravel developer, here's what you need to know. It feels like there needs to be a newsletter for that. I love that.
And attached with that is something that would be a forcing function for teams and solo devs. Something like AI field day or something where it's like, you market these events that people have to pay for, which is just like, I'm going to force you to take some time out of your schedule to walk through this. And we're going to have a cohort of five to 20 people. It's AI field day, Friday, June seventeenth, or whatever. And it's going to be an opportunity for a CTO or a founder or whoever to say to their team, listen, like, we need to take this seriously.
We need to take some time away from our regular work to do this. And here's a perfect little block for us to do that. And Brian's providing us with the the forcing function and the container for how we're gonna figure this out.

Yeah. I I really like that. So first thing was the newsletter and just like yeah. Like condensing what actually matters. What what should I spend time thinking and focusing on versus there's just so many new tools, new startups coming up every single day. I personally, like, try to block out and ignore most of like the newest cutting edge. Like this is a startup that just came up this week. Probably flame out by next week. Yeah. Right?
But what I'm really interested in are the are the are the patterns that I that I see repeating. Right? So a few just two, three weeks ago, I hear about this tool Taskmaster, which sort of like it's a command line tool that that you can use on top of cursor or any other like Versus code, like whatever else you're using. But it organizes in your workflow into, like, PRD first and then tasks and then subtasks and then Go. Yeah.
And then I saw Ryan Carson talk about the same exact workflow, but but like a lighter weight version of it with some cursor rules. But it's still PRD tasks, subtasks, go. Like, that's a pattern. And and that's something that we can build on. And that and and I believe, like, that's the way of it's modeled after, like, delegating to a junior developer.
Right? So, like, it's it's taking, like, what's what's happening on the cutting edge, but, like, you you start to see like, an another another pattern that I'm just starting to see. Oh, what up, Adam?

I invited Adam to I invited Adam to talk about what he's he's doing on the tail end side. But finish your thought, Brian, and then we'll get to Adam.

Yeah. So like like, cursor has has become sort of, like, pretty solid in the in the workflow. But, like, one thing I'm playing around with today is this, like, v zero from from Vercel, which is like I think they're probably trying to build their own version of cursor. But but what it's really good at is building like UI front end stuff. So so the workflow of like building the the front end design there first and then taking it into cursor to build out like the rest of the app is is sort of a that again, like, just looking for these, like, directional patterns that that people are doing that maybe teams can start to adopt.

Yeah. Yeah. And you could see how you could coach somebody on all that stuff, especially like, again, transistor, like, we're not doing very much in that right now. What Adam, what are what are you doing? You I I I couldn't quite get from chat. Like, it sounds like you were saying you're using it to do like, speed up your own stuff internally.

Yeah. I think we're just noticing a lot of places where there's, like, things, projects where we've historically said, oh, yeah, that would be good to do. But like Jesus Christ, that would be like so much work. Someone would have to spend three months doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. And people are gonna quit if I ask them to do that.
So we just don't do it. So the example I was giving in chat is adding dark mode support to every single component in Tailwind UI. You know? It's like a super tedious going through 600 files and fine tuning things for dark mode and making them look good. And we've never done it because it's like, do I really wanna task someone for three months doing that?
And they're not gonna be happy. They're gonna be miserable doing it. But then realizing that we can teach the computer to do that is like way changes the whole project because, yeah, you still might have to fine tune some stuff a little bit. But now like the interesting thing is, okay, like let's convert a couple by hand, write a prompt that includes all of the like instructions and opinions, iterate on that until it starts giving us output closer to what we want, build some tooling to like automate it. So like Dan on our team built a whole like drag and drop web UI where he can like drag component files off out of Finder into the UI, and it converts them to dark mode, he can tweak them in the browser and then export them

Oh, wow.

Right out of there. You know what I mean? And that's a fun project, you know?

Another example is, like, this week on on instrumental components, one of those, like, post launch things that I that it was on my to do list was, like, I gotta make these components inter internationalized

Mhmm.

For for, you know, multi language translation. Right? I had a couple European customers buy, and they emailed in. They're like, I can't translate these. You you don't have the localization tag.

Mhmm.

Right? Which, you know, in Rails, if if if you don't if you don't build that from the get go, it's like it's sort of a pain in the ass to to go through and the tedious work of doing it. So I wrote a prompt, and and I and I built a sort of a flow that is reusable. So now it literally took me one day to internationalize 30 plus components. And and it's reusable so that every time I I create a new component, I can like, one of the last steps in the in the launch process for a new component is, like, internationalize it.
Go. Like and and the AI, like, does that.

Yeah.

So, like, that's that's the type of thing. Like, these tedious projects.

Yeah. And, Adam, is there other ways you're using it? This is actually the first time I've talked I've heard you talk about using AI at all. I I couldn't I didn't know if you were, like, for it or against it.

Or I used to be more skeptical than I am now. And I think the thing for me is I was seeing everyone talk about, like, one shotting things and, like, vibe coding things. And to me, that feels like bullshit and is just not not interesting. To me, it felt like, okay. I like programming.
Like, why would I wanna not program? But when especially when the agent mode stuff came out, I think I started to see how it's how it's more useful because I forced myself to download Cursor and just try to basically build an entire project, which was like this this course platform template that we released not too long ago. So it's like a Next. Js website that's like pretty dynamic and does a bunch of different things. And I just forced myself to build the entire thing without typing any code and just making the computer type the code for me just to really like throw myself in the deep end and learn like, okay.
You know? Because in my head, I was like, okay. Well, if I have to tell them exactly what to do, isn't it just faster to do it myself? And it turns out, no. It's still not faster to do it yourself. And there's

Like, just the fact that it can it can build multiple files.

Yeah. And you can. What it feels like is it feels like having your feet up on the desk pair programming with someone next to you that you can just, like, talk to like a human being that understands what you want them to do, and they do. You know?

And also, like, there's a lot of the skeptics will say, like, oh, but it's just gonna spit back, like, like code slop that I can't use.

Yeah. Then you're not being specific enough with what you're asking it to do.

You're you're still approving every page and every change. So you're so experienced developers can read the code that it that it spits back and you can improve it. But the other thing is that, like, this stuff is improving so fast. I mean, I'm using today, I'm using mostly Claude Sonnet four. Even 3.7 was so much better than the models from like six months ago.
Mhmm. Like, it's it's not only better at like just programming and like and just like knowing like the like the Rails conventions and everything. And and it's also better at reading my project. And a like the when it when it creates when it generates new code, it first reads my code base and understands how I've implemented certain features in other areas and then implements based on that. Like, it's it it is really good at, like, adapting.
And then and then, like, you the like, you can take it to the next level. Like, you can have, like, a day one with Cursor, like, just fresh install Cursor, try it out. But once you're using it for six, twelve months, now you're getting into, Cursor rules.

Yeah. Yeah. I I started doing that on the very first day. Basically, anytime I found myself correcting something that it did, I added it to a rules file to make sure I never had to ask it to do that again. So just like little opinions in, like, our tailwind projects, if it used, like, a bottom margin, I always use top margins instead.
So add it to the rules file. Don't use bottom margins unless you're doing this. Or when I ask you to, like like, a common thing that I need to do, like, a workflow. So guess, like, here's the other thing that I I kind of became acutely aware of when I started using these workflows is just like how much of the program I do is not programming. It's just like grunt work.
There's an it's like 90% grunt work. So Steve has an icon in Figma. I need to take that icon, bring it into my project. I need to optimize the SVG so it's not big. I need to convert it into a React component.
I need to add props to it so that I can add classes to it when I'm using it. And the workflow for me has always been right click in Figma, go to this tool, svgomg.com, paste it into the thing, copy the thing out of that, go to transform dot tools, paste it in to the HTML to JSX converter, copy the JSX out of that, create a new file in Versus Code, paste it in, name the file, whatever. Now it's just like in the cursor chat, I just say like, add this icon to my project, paste the SVG code directly from Figma. And because I've told it, anytime they paste in an SVG, please optimize it. Please name the component files using this convention.
Make sure they always have these props. And like, that's now it's just a one sentence thing. And I wasn't getting any, like, mental stimulation out

of stuff that I was

doing before. It's just like so, like, to me, the the real unlock has been realizing that this actually lets me, like, program more, not less.

We should be spending our mental cycles on design. Designing the designing the structure of the architecture, the the user experience. And our skills as experienced full stack designers, developers is now to direct AI to carry out our design. You know? Mhmm.
And we are still in touch with the code base. We can still craft it however we want to. And we can craft cursor to build in the way that we want to. But we that's where that that's why I actually believe that the more experienced you are in this industry, the the better off you are in this in this new world.

I've tried to use it with like things I don't know how to do and it's a fucking disaster. Like I was I was trying to like prototype like a swift UI app the other day, which I've never done in my life. And you instantly fall into that trap of, like, AI being, like, confidently wrong, but you can't tell because you don't know how to do it yourself. But when you're so I I've until, like, I really this really clicked for me, I always kinda thought the idea with AI was like, okay. This is gonna, like, let me do stuff I didn't know how to do before.
Like, total opposite way to think about it. It's like, this is keyboard shortcuts on steroids for the things I'm an expert in. You know? It's like when I started using Sublime Text and I had multiple cursors and all this stuff. And it's like, I can just take, like, what my brain wants to put on the screen and make it appear faster. Like, that's what my relationship is with AI too.

For for people building new stuff, though, I I I do think that there's an element of, like, now that I build with AI, I can be more ambitious about the types of things that I build. I actually think that instrumental components in the way that I built it and and and the extensive functionality that's built into it would not definitely would not have happened without this style of building. Or I or I would have built a much simpler version of it.

Yeah. I found it useful to separate those two things, though. Like, the using AI to learn and using AI to code as, like, discrete tasks. Like, I've never had success trying to learn get Cursor to do something don't know how to do. Like, I just I get bad results with bugs that I don't understand how to fix.
But if I go into ChatGPT and like, I'm trying to do this, what's the right way to think about this? What happens if I do this? Like, it's the perfect thing to just like ask dumb questions to. You know what I mean?

I've been doing that pattern where I I I go to ChatGPT, which the nice thing about ChatGPT is that it has the memory built in. Like, has all my past chats, so it knows a lot about me and my preferences. So I use that as, like, my strategist that where where I bounce ideas and, like, how would I go how would I architect this? Like, that like, so I'll, like, get the approach there. And then I might I might also double check-in Claude.
Like, are you are you suggesting the same concept or are there differences? And then when I'm actually, like, ready to build, I come into Cursor and, alright. Now let's do it.

Is it similar for you, Adam? You've got Cursor for coding stuff and then ChatGPT for the learning stuff?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right now, although I do wanna try some other stuff, a lot of people on our team are using Claude code and liking that a lot. And I've heard a lot of people have been having better results with that in Cursor and candidly kind of like appeals to my sensibilities as, you know, it's like a terminal based thing and I kind of like that it's separate from the editor.
There's something about Cursor, maybe it's just like I haven't spent enough time configuring it, where it's just like there's six pop ups at the same time, and I don't know which one hitting tab is gonna actually auto complete or, you know, there's just all these competing, like, completions and, like, AI helpfulness going on that it feels a bit bit noisy.

Don't use the, like, the inline, like, pop up things that you see, like, oh, that overlay the the current file. I'm I'm all about the chat sidebar, you know. Interesting. Also think that that is a pattern that is going to become super common across all apps. Right? So, like

Every every app needs to have a chat now.

And they are. Right? Like, so Descript Descript now has a cursor like I think they call it underlord.

Wait. Are they good?

It's like it's Are these

are these sidebar chat AI chat things good?

Because I've I played with the Descript one yesterday, and it it's not great yet. But it but, like, that's and and Figma is now launching their chat thing.

I haven't tried the one in Figma, but me me and Steve always talk about this with Figma. Do you remember when Figma announced their first, like, AI stuff? It was, like, at their Figma config event last year. It was all, like, press a button and get, like, a mock up of, like, your UI, and then all the designers, like, revolted against them, which to me totally makes sense. Because when I'm working with Steve in Figma, the opportunities to use AI, which I think maybe it does a better job at now.
I haven't looked into it. But the obvious opportunities to use AI is just when Steve is doing tedious shit that he shouldn't have to do. So it's like, okay. I just designed this, like, sidebar thing, and I've got, like, three of these links. And now I just want, like, seven more of them.
And, like, can do it pretty quickly, copy and pasting stuff, whatever, but now you wanna put sample content in there. Know, it'd be nice if it just did all that for you. Like, we with the template that we're working on, I'm working on, like, a course platform thing. So I'm coming up with, like, a fake course. And we come up with a concept for the course.
And then I can just say, add, like, three more course modules with about five lessons each that, like, continue with the same sort of theme and the same sense of humor. And it just boom. You know? That would have taken, like, so much brainpower before.

Figma is the one where, like, I've been wait I haven't I haven't played with their new AI stuff yet, but I've been waiting for it for so long because, like, physically, like, my body and my back hurt after I do a ton of design work in Figma. Because it like, unlike code where even, like, the tedious grunt work in code, at least I can use keyboard shortcuts to do a lot of it. In Figma, it's all mouse. So it's like, that's where I lit I'm physically in pain from, like, doing all these, like, oh, I wanna round the corners just a little bit more and all these shapes. Like, just do it for me.
You know? You know?

So here's an unlock for me is there's part of me that has been fighting this whole AI transition because naturally, I learn and I develop and I experience and explore through relationship. So having guys like you that I could talk to and chat and bug and get screen share with has always been the way I learn. It feels like the way to learn AI is similar to that. Like if the unlock for me was if I had an Adam Wathen or Brian Cassel on a screen share with me, and I'm like, okay, going in there. And Adam goes, no, no, no.
Don't do it that way. You got to think about it this way. And then Brian's saying, actually, you got to configure it this way. I could see I I would wanna learn AI in that way. But so much of a learning AI seems to be people just with their little chatbot, ChatGPT, and they're learning how to use AI with the AI itself.

Well, that's that's why I'm I'm really into this new shift that's I think kind of happening right now, which is like we're going like, there's there's been this agent mode for the past year.

Yeah.

But even that is like like, my fingers are tired from typing prompts. Like, you know, like like and and especially because, like, I do wanna give it super detailed instructions because I, like, I have a very specific way I want it to to carry out my instructions. So sometimes my prompts are like three paragraphs long.

Yeah. Yeah.

So there's like, I I'll even like draft prompts and other files before I bring them into Cursor. Right? And that's a pain. And I'm doing it repeatedly throughout the day, you know. And so that's where this more cohesive, strict strategic look, develop like, put your energy and your creativity into this PRD process upfront.

Yeah.

We're we're front loading the strategic plan. Like, either it's a product or like a big feature. Yep. Let's I I could type in a three paragraph prompt that says like, here's what I wanna build today. Now now turn that into a long detailed PRD, project requirement document.
Then now AI turned that into high level tasks for the roadmap. Now let's break those into sub tasks. And now we literally have a checklist. And then the rest of my day is like, okay, Let's do task number 2.1. Go. Like and and then just walk

through it.

It does it. I review it. I I approve it. It and like and also, like, taking a test driven development process with this really helps. Like, I I haven't been a super TDD person in the past.
But with this new approach, it makes me more likely to be like a t like, write the test first, build the feature, make sure the test pass, and then and then I approve it. And now and now we move on to the next task in the list. And and I don't need to prompt every single one because it's just keeping track of the task list throughout the project. You know, like, that is a more, I think, professional way of of doing it. I think that's that's where we're shifting now.

Well, you can imagine to get started, like, if I had someone to coach like, here's the best PRD for your guys' Rails project. Like, let me help you write that. And because someone who's done it and done a bunch of work in these like like Adam was saying, he he every time he ran into something were you adding a rule in the PRD, Adam? Was that what you were is that what you're doing?

With the cursor rule stuff, cursor has this concept of, like, a rules file that lives in, like, a dot cursor for dot cursor rules folder or something in your project. And you can just drop, like, markdown files in there to kind of give it to kinda tune it and point it in, like, the right direction for, like, every instruction.

So there's, like, overall rules for the the platform, and then there's PRD is, like, project specific.

Yes.

Got

it. Yeah. Yeah. But then you can even have like a cursor rule for like, every time I want to build a PRD, follow this process.

Mhmm.

You know? And then and then there's a cursor rule for how to turn a PRD into a task list. And then how to turn your and and then how to how to create a checklist for that. And, you know

May so, Adam, for you, I'm just trying to think, how do you think this is going to affect your business?

Like Yeah. I I think it already is. You know, there's a lot of, like, vZero, you know, as a competitor with our business at the end of the day. Yeah. I'm I'm not sure.
Like, I think we've been seeing effects of it for, like, a long time already. There's a lot of things that do make me, like, nervous that people want, like, LLM dot TXT versions of our documentation. Right? And I'm like hesitant to do that because our business depends on traffic to the website where people are gonna be noticed that there's products for sale, you know? And if everyone is just looking at a markdown file that's pure documentation with no ability for us to, like, advertise that lives in their editor, you know, then we have no distribution anymore.

I do I on on that point about about traffic to your website, I I just I heard this interview with Rand Fishkin on on on like the Wistia podcast like two weeks ago with Chris Savage. Really, really great interview. Just talking all about and and this is a thing that he's been saying for years. This, like, zero traffic or zero click Internet is happening. Mhmm.
And that's where we're going. And whether we like it or not, I think every you know, across the board look, like, like, people are getting answers without going to the final website. They're they're getting it from Google. They're getting it from LLMs, you know. I and and that's gonna have different impacts on different businesses, but that's sort of just the reality of of where the trend line is gonna keep going.

I'm not sure what my takeaways are from that really or my conclusion from it. I think one thing is that I think it's gonna be more important than ever to have like an audience.

I yeah. That that is like the conclusion that I keep coming back to. It's like if if it's zero, if if traffic if organic traffic from search is on the decline, the answer to that is personal influence.

Yeah. Yeah. And then yeah. And then the other thing for for us is just to I don't know. Like, I think if you're building a tool that costs money and it solves a problem, then or you still can find customers.
You know what I mean? And I guess that's, like, still true for us regardless. Although, like, we are like competing with AI in a lot of ways. Although I've become a little bit more optimistic about it over the past few days because I do kinda think like there's a there is something to the experience of like browsing curated designs on like Tailwind UI that is easier than blank canvas trying to get AI to do something nice when maybe you don't even really know what you want. So we've been thinking about how can we leverage AI to just produce more stuff that has our Yeah.

But directed by you and Steve.

You know what I mean? We we do need to

have another Adam Wathen episode to, like, to unpack your because, like, the the thing that comes to mind now is, like, yeah, you're you're saying things that, like, like, v v zero or our competitors, but, like, it's also, like, everything is using Tailwind now.

Yeah. And it's frustrating because everything on Earth is using Tailwind, and there's, like, nothing we can do to benefit from it. It's purely a burden in a lot of ways. You know? It's just, like, I have like over a million dollars in salary obligations that pay people just to fix bugs in a free tool that people don't pay me back

for.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of brutal. Like I'm I'm very ready for, like, my next act in a lot of ways, honestly.
You know? Like like, we're working on, like, adding support to Tailwind UI or Tailwind Plus as it is now for, like, adding JavaScript support to the vanilla HTML stuff, which we never had before. And it's in the past, I would've it would've been obvious to do that as, like, an open source library. And, like, really, though, I don't think we're gonna do that this time. I think it's just gonna be part of the commercial product, and you have to have a license to use the JavaScript because what is the incentive to make it free Just so that somebody else can go and use it to build a tool that, like, competes with ours without having to do any of the work to maintain that torturous, like, hard to maintain JavaScript library.
You know?

I mean, I I think that sounds direct directionally correct. But, you know, like, the thing that that I I think I'm thinking about, and maybe if if you're thinking about, like, what what is the next act or the next phase of of Tailwind Labs, what you were talking about last time with, like, building up the the YouTube studio.

Mhmm. Yeah.

Like, I'm I'm sort of I'm trying to restrain myself from jumping too far ahead to, like, what is the next product? Like, is it a course?

Is it

a is it a this? Or is it a that? Like, I'm just, like, let me just get into motion. And if all that means is I'm releasing new YouTube content every week and listening to the feedback and trying to spot the trends of of where, you know, what what are the solid patterns that I can build off of, then then whatever products or business direction, like, that's going to make itself obvious at some point. But but for now, if all I really should be concerned with, maybe maybe you, Adam, too, is like, just be in motion on the on on what would need to be true for the next phase to happen, and that probably means, like, weekly YouTube videos.
You know?

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. We're still bullish on doing that stuff. Like, neck I'm right now, I'm working on, like, a Tailwind course, like, official paid Tailwind course that, you know, where the the, you know, unique value proposition is, like, it's taught by me.
You know? So if you wanna know how I do things, like, this is where you're gonna learn how to do that. And it's a nice thing that we can sell to our existing customers because it's a separate product and it sits on the same site that still gets like 10,000,000 visits a month or whatever.

I love it. I think that makes total sense for for your business.

And then, yeah. And then on the side, me and Steve are designing video editing software right now because that's like a pain point that we have, like, when we make this content, you know? And I'm and that I'm getting pretty excited about that.

So Talk about something that's outside of your normal like, what you know. You must be having to learn a lot there.

Technology wise, yes. But it's kinda funny because, like, it's a very full circle moment for me because when I was in, like, college and, you know, committing to becoming, like, a professional programmer, I went in with like, the thing I wanna be able to do is build my own like audio editing tool to use instead of Pro Tools or Logic or whatever because I just have so many workflow opinions about all this stuff. Because that's what I was doing before is recording bands for a living and I there's just so many things that could have been like faster, you know? And Steve has the same background, like he went to school for audio engineering.

I I I got I got a degree in that too and and and we all ended up being like web developers. So there's that.

Yeah. So to get into like, yeah, designing, like, software for compositing video tracks and doing edits and

I do wanna hear about that. It sounds a little bit out of left field for you, but also, like, I I don't know what your road map is or plan for that is, but I feel like it has to be dude, like, it has to be AI, dude. Like, the the idea of, like, magical

I think there has to be some AI stuff in there. There's so many things that AI can do there now.

Yeah. So, like, I'm using Descript now. I I go back and forth between ScreenFlow, Descript, and a little bit of Screen Studio whenever I'm doing videos. And I'm just always on the lookout for, like, how can I remove the grunt work? And

Yeah. Like, how can I just get it to delete everything except the good takes, which is always the last take? And you can tell because it transcribed everything. Yeah. I've seen

Descript has that feature, but it, like, only works, like, 80% of of the time.

And Yeah. And even, like, captions. Like, do you remember, like, Justin? I mean, both of you guys will remember this, but, like, was a time back in, like, 2015 where, like, we all felt guilty about our podcasts not having transcriptions. And we were all debating what service We're asking people at MicroConf, like, do you pay to transcribe your podcast and what's their turnaround time and whatever. That is such ancient history. That whole idea, it's just an instant free thing that's perfect.

I just

did a

voice note an hour ago and my iPhone transcribed it. Done. Like Uh-huh.

Yeah. It's insane.

Okay. So here's to wrap to wrap this up, I I'm hearing some things. This is

AI is cool. Like AI. Threat threatened by AI, empowered by AI. We're really just, like, trying

to lay lay, like, the groundwork so that, like, when the LLMs read the transcript of this episode, like, we're we're on their

good side. We're spared. We know.

To me, it sounds like the first theme I'm taking away here. And again, the chat's blown up here. I think a lot of people participated.

So much for trying to keep up with Really appreciate it.

I think it's I think it's awesome. But I I think expertise is one thread we have here. Like, there's still nobody that can build UI components like Adam and Steve. Like, there's something about that that is magical. But also expertise in terms of using AI, knowing when it's wrong, knowing how to direct it.
That feels like a strong thread. And also expertise in the sense that if either of you came into Transistor and spent the day with my team, I think you would be able to, in an opinionated, expert like way, say, here's what you should do. Here's how you should set it up. Don't think about it this way. Like, I think that service, that that idea, that's pretty strong here.

That that was that's the same exact sentiment that I heard from my friend today, the guy who who reached out asking for that. And that's what I'm learning. And I I I think that there's just aside from, like, a direct, like, work with companies on that problem, I think that there's a larger opportunity that I'm kind of focused on.

I think there's a massive appetite here. Even look at the chat. Listen to Adam. Listen to every everybody's just saying like, everybody's grappling this with this in real time. It's clearly a paradigm shifting. It's clearly like the tectonic plates of the industry are moving. Everyone's trying to figure it out.

And it's like one of those things that like with anything with web development, software development, I've always had this massive level of impostor syndrome of, like, I who am I to to to teach anything related to programming or coding? Because there are so many people who have who are so so much more experienced than me and and are smarter than me when it comes to how to write programming logic. Right? But I think that when it comes to development workflow and building with AI and using tools like Cursor, I think right now we're still in this, like, phase where it's like, we're all just figuring this out. Yeah.
Like, there is no tried and true, like, accepted methodology that more experienced people have that that you or I or any of us like, it right now, it's we are all figuring it it's happening, but nobody really knows what the solid workflow is.

Right? Yeah.

You know?

Yeah. And the the other thread I'm getting and this has come up before, but, you know, Adam's working on this new video editor. It feels like looking at what AI could enable for your team for, you know, as a as a another bet during this time is another thing that's happening. Like people are saying, okay, well, what can we chew? What can we take our unique expertise in into that we wouldn't normally be able to do and start building some shit that might be the next act of our of our stuff.
You know?

Yeah. I think the important thing is just do stuff and make sure you're not being

a A Luddite?

Not swimming, like, yeah, up against the current. You know what I mean? Like, make sure you're informed before you take that stance or you're gonna find yourself a little behind the curve, I think. And I think the best way to learn the AI stuff, like, I I really learned a lot very quickly by just, like, doing that one project where I just didn't let myself write any code. And I don't think that should be, like, the goal.
Again, like, to me, I like writing code. I I think a lot of the criticism that you hear, a lot of like the concern that you hear from developers like, well, I don't wanna be a full time code reviewer. Like, that's the part of my job I hate the most. Like, why would I design things in a way to be doing that Yeah. All the time.
But it's up to you, like, how you use it. That's one way to do it. You can have things like asynchronously submitting PRs for you and reviewing those PRs and stuff like that. But that's not how it feels when I use it. It just feels like it's doing what I tell it to do. And I see exactly on the screen what I expect to see. I'm not really reviewing the approach. I'm giving it the approach and it's just producing the characters.

The creativity and the craft, that happens upfront in at the prompting stage. But even before that, it's like the PRD, like the project plan stage. Like, that's where we as the experience, like, look, this is how this is what we need to build because this is what we wanna deliver for customers. Like, that's where all the creativity is happening.

Yeah.

You know? Because, like, even even, like, these, like, non technical, you know, idea guys and gals who, like, they might have, like, yeah, but like like, I mean, people can have great ideas about what a customer wants and that's extremely valuable. But then there's also incredible value in like, okay. Like, actually delivering a a solid product Yeah. You know, from from front to back.
Mhmm. There as we all know, like, there's so much more that goes into that, and and that's where, like, directing an AI to carry that out. And and just honestly, like what you're saying, like like, it is about, like, removing the grunt work.

Did you have one more thing you were gonna say, Adam, before we close here?

Yeah. There's two things I'll say quickly. On the vibe coding thing, I'm not interested in that for, like, professional work, but it is extremely cool that you can build custom tools for yourself to solve little problems extremely quickly. So, like, the I built a workout tracking thing for myself just so that it would tell me what plates to put on the bar and what my next set would be and calculate a couple things and stuff like that. And that, I entirely I've never read the code.
I just told it to make it for me just gave it feedback based on the UI, and I don't care. Because I don't care if it has bugs that would be security issues or it's just like a private tool for me that I was never gonna build, but now that I can just ask the computer to do it and it magically does it, now I have it and it exists. I did the same thing for, like, a for an interval timer. So when I'm doing things in, the gym and I I just wanted an app that would just beep every fifteen seconds. So I knew to, like, switch movements.
And I couldn't find one on the App Store, but, like, AI built it for me in two seconds. So that's cool.

I'd love an app that would keep my camera.

That'll be fun. And then the other thing I'm excited about that I'm just, like, starting to get into now is just building custom AI, like automation flows. There's this really great article by Torsten Ball who works at Sourcegraph. It's called like how to build an agent or something. And as you're reading it, whole time you're just expecting to get to the hard part where it's like, oh, yeah.
And then like the super hard thing that I can't do. But like you never get there. It just you get through the whole article and you're like, oh, shit. Actually, yeah. I guess I could do that.
And I don't know. It just gives me all sorts of ideas for like, Jack McDade messaged me the other day, and he was like, does Tailwind have are you guys adding this new CSS feature to Tailwind? And I'm like, well, one day. It's it's not, like, on my calendar to go and do it right now. And, you know, he's a bit paralyzed because he's gonna add it himself, but he wants to make sure he uses the same APIs that we're gonna use.
So when we eventually do add it, it he can just delete his stuff, and it'll just keep working. And it just had me thinking, man, like, I could totally build a tool that runs on a server on a cron job and kind of just, like, watches the same sources for information that I watch, like, these, like, super CSS nerd blogs and notices new CSS features. And I could give it some context and instructions and do everything I can to make it easy for it to, like, design new Tailwind features the way that I would do. And then just wake up to a pull request once in a while that's like, oh, hey. Here's a pull request for this new CSS feature, and it's named the same way you would name it, and it works the same way you would make it

work. Interesting.

And Yeah. Then I didn't have to

do But that's that is where we're going, and it's not even it it like, that is possible today.

Right? That's a % possible today. And the best part about it is if it sucks, I can just, like, say no and close it. Whereas right now, if a human being does that, I should be like, dude, I'm so sorry. I know you spent, like, like, fifteen hours on this. I don't have time to really review this right now. You know? It's just like it's a cold machine.

More more likely, it's gonna be like 80 or 90% there, and you're gonna go in and tweak a few things and then ship it. You know?

And and if I let it sit there for nine months, the AI isn't gonna get mad at me

or think I'm

ignoring it or, you know, it's there's so many elements to having, like, a soulless machine do work for you instead of human beings.

It is It's it's also this is such a, like, a bigger conversation, but, like, what what does it mean for our psyche to to have some like, an AI that we can just talk to or strategize with? Like, I like, I've I've been doing, like, like, business strategy and planning for this direction. Right? And how ChatGPT has my whole history and everything, and it's like, damn it. Like, knows what Mhmm.
What I'm thinking and what my aspirations are. But then it's like the the next thing, it's like, oh, I know it's almost like feeling a little bit embarrassed. Like, I know I said this thing yesterday, but now I changed my mind about this direction. Like, why am I fucking embarrassed talking about a computer?

You know? Like, it's insane, dude. Yeah. It's true. Alright. I gotta run. I'm gonna be late, drop my kids off at dance, but, thanks for having me on. It was fun.

Yeah. Thanks, man.

Alright. See you guys.

I mean, I think we should end it. But this to me, I think this worked out really well. We got we had this active chat. We had some old we got Junta in the chat. We had all sorts of people interacting.

The is a lot more active than I expected it would be.

We had Adam join us at the end. It was kind of like the perfect like, I could send a link to Adam because he was interacting in the chat, and I think we could do that more often. And it just this whole thing this is like one of those episodes where I am just chewing on all this AI stuff. Now I'm thinking in my head, like, what are the next things I need to go do? I think for sure, Brian, it feels like there's an opportunity for you here and some sort of like AI for the rest of us newsletter needs to happen.
Like that to me feels like the starting point.

I I like that. The the thing yeah. The the thought that I had there was like a monthly because it's also like, how do I I mean, maybe some of it I could use AI to help. But like like a monthly builder letters. Mhmm.
Like, here here's here's the thing that over the past month I'm most excited about and and that I think is important to to focus on. Let's let's tune out the rest of the noise and just and and I I also think that, like, by making it once a month. Mhmm. Like, not a weekly or semi daily newsletter, but here's the June edition of builder letters. You know, like like and I think that adds some importance to it.
So that's that's sort of my working concept for like maybe rebranding my newsletter or relaunching it as like something that you sort of wanna tune into. You're only gonna get it once a month. And and I'll have, like, the steady stream of YouTube stuff coming out weekly. That's more like real time. But, like, the the big thing that you need to care about is probably the monthly thing that drops. Like, that that's my thought

right now. I think it should be weekly, personally, because I feel like people need that drip. They might only catch, you know, one out of three emails. But

But I almost think I also think that, like, it's that's what makes it different. Because the the point is, like, you don't need to stay on top of every single latest greatest thing because there are 50 new things that drop every single week.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The the point is, like, you should ignore most of that.

Okay.

I know. That's the thought. And also, I just don't want to have the work of having to deliberate.

Alright. Well, so next Thursday, we'll go live again. I think you should have a this will be easy for you. A sign up page for that. Just even if it's just a waiting list, like I'm planning on writing something in this zone, you know.
And I I'm again, I think narrowing or expanding the audience is gonna be interesting because I think founders are gonna be interested, executives, developers. And there's all sorts of ways like how does this affect business strategy? How does this affect web development? How does this affect product development? There's all sorts of places where I think people are gonna want help.

I have a potential first client for this. I don't want this to turn into just a client service. I I do wanna start to think about how is this a product and an actual business that grows. But for right now, I'm I'm very much in the learning phase and the audience, like, launching phase.

Yeah. Definitely, folks. Reach out to Brian if you've got thoughts as you've been listening or watching. Again to everyone who showed up live. We'll see you next Thursday, 12:15PM Pacific on June 12. Yes, sir. See you.

Later, folks.