Waco Survivor's Story -David Thibodeau

ago because I had Clive Doyle on the show. These are the guys who wore branch Davidians. They lived there in the house, the compound they call it, in Waco, where the FBI came and shot them up, held them hostage for how many days? Forty days whatever, and then then burned them alive.

not glamorous at all. You're breaking down, you're setting up. It's just it's it's actually a ridiculous profession. You got to be a little crazy. I think it's a musician. But if you are, you are you. It's something you love, it's something you were born to do and you can't help but you got to get it out.

meet David in Texas at a show. In reality, I met David and Steve Schneider at Guitar Center on Sunset Boulevard and they were looking at one of the electronic drum sets. I had gone into my drumsticks and they asked me if I would play it for them so they could hear, and I did. They handed me their card and they said, we're looking for a drummer. If you're interested, we love to jam with you. I'm Steve Schneider on this guy's manager. This is David Gresh, you know.

And I saw the guy, David Kresh. Guy had a T shirt on and the ripped jeans and he was like being a guitarist or a musician. And then the other guy had kind of a suit on, Steve Schneider and he looked like you would be a business the business guy. And I just thought that this guy had his had his business manager with him. I thought that

was pretty cool. But then I looked at the card and it said like Messiah has had said Cyrus Productions on the front in the back had had a bunch of religious scripture, Isaiah, Revelation, all these different you know, scriptures, and I just handed them the card back. I said, I'm really not looking to be in a Christian band.

Guy's thanks, but you know, it's not like thing. And that just kind of said, you know, David kind of said was a little bit all over the world, like you know, Steve said that he was taught compared to religions. They talked to people all over the world, and you know, the Bible is a big part of it for them, but they related and consider themselves Christian. You know, they were more like between the Old Testament and the New

Testament and everything in between. Anyway, the way that the describer was more like there was a study for them and a religion, and that that's what kind of rest upon me. Anyway. I honestly I left thinking I'm not gonna call them. But about three days later I had that card in my pocket and things weren't going so great in my life or in my band. I said, maybe those are the guys that I was supposed to meet, and I gave him a call, and so, yeah, I

mean that's how I met them. And then Steve would come over to my place in Hollywood and bring a few beers and we'd have a Bible study, which is really odd for me and nothing I'd done before, but I thought it to be very interesting. I mean when he opened his Bible, he had one of those half inch margin bibles, and every single page was color coded with cross references, and that blew me away. I mean it's like every page you looked at was filled with

reference material that he had done on his own. And they could go through the scripture for Genesis to Revelations, flipped the Isaiah and then go to Jeremiah and show you a picture that every single prophet was talking. I'll say, be it the Kingdom of God being set up on the mountain zeon in the future, or you know, be the Holy Spirit, the feminine aspect of God. There were so many different subjects. They just they seemed to know it all. Any question you had, they could go through

it and show you exactly what it said. And it wasn't like they were excuse. It wasn't like it wasn't the doctor Nation or they were telling you what to think. It was like you were seeing what the book said for the first time. Because I had read the scripture. I had gone to stay to Sunday school. When I was a kid, I watched the TV preachers and I just I couldn't understand why people would send them money. What Why don't people see through some of these people

on the television. It's obvious they're about money, They're not really about doing good works. I don't know, I just kind of I think I felt like I always saw through it, and with these guys, I really couldn't. They really took it seriously.

didn't want to bring me up in religion. They wanted me to be able to make my own decisions when I was older without having that kind of albatross across your neck of you know, choosing the religion of your parents and kind of being closed minded to everything else because that's how you were raised I thought that was a pretty fair I'm pretty happy with them for that.

a part of me. But I don't limit myself to just one way of thinking. I study a lot of archaeology that's going on. I always want to see if the findings in Israel are true or not, or they're comparable to the book. It seems like there's a lot of time chronologies that the book talks about that aren't true or hasn't can't, or have not been proven yet from archaeological studies. So I study that. I study some science, a little bit of everything's Buddhism I highlight to touch

on different subjects. So it's hard for me to say. It's really I kind of feel that, you know, we're an energy and once we put off this mortal coil, we go on to a higher energy power and we all become a part of that. Like I said, and it's kind of complicated, but I do believe that the Scripture for me has cup alive and I'm never going to be able to get over that ed. You know, it's just something that's so I don't know, it's really harder,

it's just personal. It's hard to explain. But if you could understand that David talked about what was going to happen for the two years that I was there, and then it happens, that's a pretty powerful thing for anybody.

To me. He was even more powerful about the faith of the people that lived in Mount Carmel is when you talk to the older people that knew David Kresh when he was vernon when he first came onto the scene, and he seemed to have a really good knowledge of scripture, but he wasn't teaching the Seven Seals, and he kind of stuttered, he was a little shy, and he was a little awkward. And then this guy you know, he starts teaching some classes here and there, but he's nothing spectacular.

Then he goes to Israel, and when he comes back from Israel, he claims that he's had this vision. He starts teaching the Seven Seals and he starts getting into a depth of things that the old, older people that have lived there for many, many years, they've been waiting for this guy to come and reveal the Seventh Seals.

At Mount Carmel, it believed there were two or three different prophets that were there before David Koresh came on the scene, and they all had they're a little bit of light here, a little bit like that, but they all talked about one that would come and reveal the Seven Seals. So when you're waiting for that for a couple decades, like Climb or some of the older people, and then here comes this guy and he starts revealing the Seven Seals, I can only imagine how powerful that

is for those people. It's a powerful story me telling it. And it's one of the reasons that I thought this was maybe a truer religion is because these people claim to actually have profits in their past and that here's this guy that starts revealing the seventh sealed. So to me, that's part of some of the most fascinating aspect of Malcarmel and the people there is that they were waiting

for this guy to come. This guy shows up and he shows you what's going to happen out of a book, and then the FBI, the ATF attacks, and the FBI take over comes what it is and everyone is basically killed for what they believe in what that's pretty powerful.

going to oversimplify everything to an extreme. And basically, the people know Carmel believe that they were the wave Sheath and it talks about it talks about the wave sheath the first of the first group. But there will be a group of people, a strange people, a peculiar people that'll be that'll have a message, the final message, for the final message that God gives man before the Kingdom of God is set up on the earth, and that message is going to be very powerful and it's going

to be hated by mankind. There's several scriptures where God talks about a stumbling block or for the people of the earth, that God is going to create a stumbling block. People are going to hear this truth, they're not going to believe it, they're not gonna want it. And the government, the powers that be you call it Babylon or the King of the North, are going to go in and they're going to basically wipe out the people that are learning this the way. She's the first of the first

truth and they're learning these things. So when the kingdom is set up and they that the one hundred and forty four thousand, as it's talked about in the scripture, A lot, but a lot of really religious people that I have said to run into all believes A lot of people believe one hundred and forty four thousands, the only people that could save them on the earth. That's

simply not true. The next line says, one hundred and forty four thousand they come to the Kingdom of God set up on the earth, and they learned from the lamb. They learned something. And then they go out and they gather the great multitude which no man can number. So we find out, for the scripture, gods in the saving business, and he basically wants these first the first fruit, gether of the one hundred and forty four thousand who and turn together the rest of the world and bring them

into the Kingdom of Heaven, if you will. So that's basically in a nutshell who the people in mel Carmo believed that they were that that first group that would

have to die for their testimony. Literally they would die before everyone else under the fifth Seal, if you will, and they would be attacked by the government, and then after that the Kingdom of God at some point, and there's no nobody knows the time or the days, but God himself, no Navidian or none of the people that I knew, will ever say this is going to happen in twenty five years or thirty years or fifty years.

But if all this is true, the Kingdom of God is to be set up on the earth, and then everyone will have the chance at some point to go and learn from God himself. So take that for a brief little good.

I'm sure there's many Buddhists that are given powers because of the intense meditation that they do, and they believe that they have the right pass and they might. You know, that's one of those mysteries you don't know until you go to the other side. So it's all it's really all speculation. But I know that I've had a very powerful experience that that I can't deny. I'll put it that way right now.

you know, when I'd be like said about something. Maybe it was the food or the fact that I'm always too hot or whatever. It could have been anything anything that's you know, withering of the flesh right, And they'd always say, don't go by your feelings and what that even that's the feeling and everything's feeling when you're a human being. What that basically means is what does the word of God say? What does the book say? What

does the scripture say? That's why we're here. We're not here because we have electricity or because we have air conditioning. It's quite the opposite. We're living here in the middle of nowhere on an ant hill because there's the fire amps everywhere. I mean, you're always getting chewed up when you went outside, you know, living very monastically for a reason, and it's not for our comfort. It's because there's something here.

The Word of God is here, and we need to figure out what it really says means, So don't go by your feelings literally literally means what does the scripture say? Okay, there quite complaining, you know what I mean.

this party. This is America. Well, that's not how they do it. They're not going to bring tanks onto this property. And he just looked at me and he didn't say anything. And whenever he did that, I knew that I put my foot in my mouth. But anyway, I didn't take anything of it. You know, I certainly never thought they were going to break tanks. And then of course Randy Weaver happened and we saw the tank, and I'm like no. And then you know, a few months later, when was

it six months later, they came and rated us. And after the ATF backed away and the FBI took over a few days later. I think the next day, there's tanks on the property. And I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I'm sitting there. It's it's in a seed situation now, the eighteenth a learning that there's tanks on the property. They're running up and down w Rants Road. So you know, I mean, that's pretty awesome stuff. Man,

there was. You may not consider that a miracle, but to me, that was kind of a mirror.

They offer all sorts of business process outsourcing, data entry, banking, BPO services, recruitment, process outsourcing, software testing, offshoring, research, network, customer care, press release, content writing and distribution, and much much more. Now you can get a hold of subash Technosis by email at info at subashtechnosis dot com. Their website is www dot subash technolosis dot com and their Skype is a n us h a s Ubash. Remember, all these shows on a wake are brought to you

by email revealer dot com. You can go to email revealer dot com and get a copy of my book How to Become a Successful Private Investigator. You also do all the kinds of different services for you at online dating service investigations called an online infidelity investigation, and that's where you give us your husband or your boyfriend, your girlfriend's email address and we trace it back to their online dating websites and we return a list of all

the dating sites that that email is registered to. We can expand our night investigation and trace it back to porn sites, escorts service sites, swinger sites, gambling websites, and even prescription drug websites, and all kinds of digital forensics computer and cell phone digital forensics where we can recover deleted content from an email or a hard drive and produce a report for you that you can use in court.

That's email revealer dot com or you can contact me at Oppermaninvestigations at gmail dot com.

it was some automatic. It could just you full in the view really quickly. So, I mean it seemed like they had kind of a flimsy case in my adminast and myst estimization that that that was even going on. But nonetheless they wanted to you know, I mean, we know that their budget had come up, was coming up in Congress, and the ATF had just had the Randy Weaver fiasco happened, and they really wanted to get have a big butt so they could justify getting more money

from Congress. So they came up with this operation show Time, and they were gonna a Trojan horse, I think so. And they were gonna, you know, go after a community that they could demonize very easily by calling us the call and say that there was a bunch of firearms on hand and we were going to go into the community where you want to start shooting or some crazy stuff like that. You know. The reality is David had met a man named Henry McMahon, I don't know, a

year or so before all this happened. Henry was a licensed firearms dealer, and he started showing David the business. Him and Paul Fattas started doing that, you know, going to gun shows and buying and selling gun legally. Paul actually had a lot of the guns at a gun shows, so you know, it was something that they did every weekend, so I didn't think it was about outlantish. Once you live in Texas for a while and you realize that all of your neighbors have guns, it's not a big deal.

Like I'm you know, I'm from New England, and unless you're a hunter, it's kind of a deal if you have a lot of guns. I mean, it made it's a little different, you know. But if you live in any bigger communities, the guns are kind of frown upon. When you're in Texas, that's a different story. It's it's part of the landscape anyway. So once I got used to guns being around, it didn't bother me, you know. I mean what people did. If you wanted to have

a gun, you had a gun. So what we had band members from other bands in the community come out and shoot with us at our firing range. And it was nothing that was sinister, you know, It's just a good time. So anyway, that's what it's why they were saying that I crested these illegal weapons, and so that they could justify this big attack. And of course they used child abuse, which has nothing to do with the FBI,

had nothing to do with the ATF state issue. But they used child abuse and kresh having you know, a lot of kids with a lot of girls, is being this thing that they needed to go in and stuff as well. That again, there's no jurisdiction for any kind of federal authority for them to use that. They're only using it for demonization tactics, you know. And there's I have a quote that I've committed to memory, and it says it all about Waco. Senator Henry Clay said the

eighteen hundreds. He said, the devices of power and its minions are the same in all ages and in all countries. It marks its victim, denounces it, exciting the public hatred so it can conceal its own abuses and encroachments. When you think about that quote, it's exactly what happened a Mount Carmel. Once the ATS screwed up and they came in shooting, they lost to me and the FBI took over.

What took to rest years and years to get people to come around his way of thinking, to come around of showing the scripture over and over again, day after date, night after night, for people to believe him and want to stay there and be there. It took the FBI only fifty one days to control the entire world through the media by demonization tactics, so they could get away

with what they did. Because the truth is, if they were not demonizing us every day, if people thought of us as being human beings, they could not have gotten away with doing what they did.

I was thinking about this on the break. But you would mention that kids today have always seen that, and you mentioned a protest where they have tanks on and but back in the eighties it was shocked, and you know, I still think it's shocking. I'm surprised. I hope that kids today aren't that they should not be used to seeing tanks being used against them. Ever. I mean, that's that's the stuff the Russians do. That's not the stuff we're supposed to do under the constitution that we have.

And it just blows my mind that I really hope that the kids today aren't comfortable with it.

little baby girl rooming around pregnant. I mean, when I met Michelle, she talked to me and interacted with me like a young woman, like she she had a sense of things, She was intelligent. She acted way more mature than any of the girls that I had known in Hollywood at that age. I was twenty three at the time, and so you know, I thought of her as my equal, war my peer. I never thought until I did the research for my book, I never realized how young Michelle was.

She had Serenity Surrendity was three and I boughted with that child who were very close Serenity and I. But I guess at the time that I met Michelle she was seventeen. But I never for a second thought that because she seemed like my equal, more than younger than me, even more mature in a lock games. But I use her as the example because when I was doing the research for the book, and I really had to be

honest with everything. Yes, I'm a survivor, but you know I wanted I wanted the testimony to be true, and the only way was to be truthful in all things and I found out that she did have a serenity when she was fourteen years old. And you know, that's a very shocking thing when you're singing it on paper,

but when you know the people you know. Like I said, my attitude coming into it was like once I started to figure out that it was David that was the father of most of the children there, I was just like, well, how can all these women look together and not kill each other? I never understood that, So I guess I was very not non judgmental. If that's the way the

community wanted, that's the way the community wanted. I was here to learn something, So, like I said, it didn't I don't know, it didn't seem all that shocking to me. It was just the way the way people are living that are outside of the realms of the normal community. I don't know the way it's been done scripturally for thousands of years.

of it. He's been there a couple of weeks, he didn't come over, coming over just about every day. I just thought I was just David talking to Robert. Didn't think anything over. I went back down and was finishing my breakfast. You know, I think I once and got dressed to some water on my face or something, and

then I went back to period. It seemed like there was a lot of commotion going on, door slamming, people running up and down the hall, and the next thing I know, I'm hearing these helicopters in the background, and David comes down the stairs and he says, Okay, they're coming, They're on their way. Don't anybody do anything stupid. I'm gonna go outside where I'm gonna try to talk to him. That's what we're about here about carbodo anybody do anything stupid?

And he ran to the He ran out of the cafeteria and down the hall, probably about thirty seconds later. Although time is really hard to calculate when you're being shot at. I could hear his voice, and then I could just hear I heard all this fight, gunfire, and it's you know, started slow at first, that it picked up very quickly, and so I got down. I just got down on my face. Living in Hollywood, when you hear gunshots, you learned to just kind of, you know,

get down to protect yourself. Well. Taking a lot of stories. Yeah, I talked after the gunfight. I talked to three or four different people that were at the front door at different times, and they all told me the exact same story. Also, that David was at the front door. He opened the door and he held his hand out and he said, hold on, there's women and children here, let's talk about this. They said the door flew back in his hand from the velocity of a bullet hitting it, and then he

slammed the door and fell back. And that's when Perry Jones, a seventy year old man, unarmed, went down Michelle's father, Rachel's father, from a bullet worn to his stomach. And so when he went down and he was riding in agony, that's when some of the people at the front started to shoot back. That was the story that I was told. But like I said, three or four different people. So I believed in this day, and I've always believed that

the ATF fired first. At the trials in San Antonio, it seemed to indicate that it was the group that was going to the pend Up area to shoot the dogs. They could have been the first people to fire. There was another agent that said his firearm went off when he reached for it and some people speculated that could have been the first shot fired. What we know for sure is the video camera that they had at the

surveillance house that was rolling that day. Those tapes disappeared, So it seems like whatever there's evidence that shows the ATF was its fault, the evidence disappears. The steel door, the metal door that I was talking about that was claimed this is disintegrated in the fire, while the other door was entered into evidence in San Antonio. So whatever there, you know, whenever it was convenient for the ACF, that

evidence no longer exists. So I thoroughly believe one hundred percent that they fired first.

and try to justify it. It's just, you know, there's there's a playbook that they use, and it's been used for hundreds of years. It's it hasn't changed.

Even it's like a big brother, like yes, because yeah, yeah, but like David said on that tape, that's like big brother, come here to investigate what happened a little brother, and that's it's not cool, you know, I mean that. And that aside what happened during the fifty one days. If you were to take it day by day and you would see that David would you know, we'd make an agreement with the FBI negotiators and everything, that'd be great.

And then the next day the tactical commanders would come and put pressure on, maybe start destroying sheds and stuff. After the FBI negotiators told us that would happen, and then they'd get on the the They would get on the every day there was a press conference and the FBI would say, well, this cult has done this, and Crash thinks that God's talking to him and you know

these cult members or they're really dangerous. They would say these things about us publicly and we'd be listening, and then they get on the phone and say, oh, that's just the commanders doing their things. You know, we don't need that, and it's like, what are you guys talking about? But it was kind of like, how what's the sort of how psychotic are you? You say one thing to us, then you say another thing to the American public and

you expect us to trust you. Now imagine that happening every single day, them saying something about you ed when your audience knows who you are, but they won't do your radio show anymore, and they're just talking about you the way they want you to be perceived. That's a very hard thing to deal with. And I got to tell you, it doesn't make you want to go up to those people.

they have not fired back at the Davidians. When I heard that, that's the only time I ever lost hope because I knew they were setting the American public up for massacre. I, in my naivete thought that we would still be able to establish negotiations. When they saw that we were not going to come out from their cs gas attack plan and maybe they would see that we were serious about writing the Seven Seals down in manuscript

form and they would back away. I lost all hope when I heard that, because I knew that none of the people in the building fired against those tanks. I had not heard a gun shot all day, not all day at the tenth oring nothing. No one fired a shot at those tanks. So that was the final lie. Really, I mean, I knew that's how they were going to justify them killing us by saying that we were shooting at them. We did not shoot at them during that that last day. It did not happen.

bring it up again and again. I have a major problem with the recordings, the devices they put in, and we all knew if they were in the milk whale. Put all the recording devices that we probably put in a room, the bugs, if you will, in a specific room. Now, the tapes that they claim say that people were saying light a fire for some air for them there. You know, well, that could be anything. But even even if someone were making a Molotov cocktail to use against the tanks, let's

just say that's a possibility. Even if that were true. It was six am when the FBI said those tapes were made six hours before the fire, and they said they were very careful to say we didn't know what they were saying then, or else we would have stopped to see s gas attack the plan to sees gas plan. We didn't know until we took the tapes back to

Washington and had them scrubbs. Those are words that to me are just I hear those words in red Flags, go open my head, because I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Let's se If I get this right, I'm not going to think of it as the last second when I needed them. I Okay, we know, Okay, we know the tapes have been manipulated in the past. It's easy to do. So when the FBI said that they had to tape scrub and that's the only way to realize what was really being said, I have a

problem with that because it's totally in their control. They can't hear it first in, but they have to go and have the tape manipulated. They could make that say whatever they want. But even more importantly, they claimed that tape that was made six hours before the fire. So if you're pouring fuel all over the building and tanks are going into it and creating sparks, how does the fire not start for six hours?

it was everything was good. And then I went to Los Angeles and I saw him, this guy who was doing this documentary, Mike McNulty and William Gazeki, and I went to William Gazecki was the guy that was mixing it and kind of cutting the film together, and they had this infrared videotape they wanted me to see. And I saw the infrared videotape and it was an infrared of course is heat seeking sources. So if there's a heat source, it comes out white on the tape, and

if it's a cool area comes out black. So it's like a black and white film, only it's not black and white. It's in great The FBI had a plane find two miles above Mount Carmel that day and they were filming the last minutes, and you can see on the tape you can see two pyrotechnic devices go off in the gym area, and then there's another place where you can see a pyrotechnical at least a flashbang or a pyrotechnic device. Either way, it could easily caught a fire.

To start a fire, especially with all the cscus that was in perm that had permeated everything. But more importantly is as the fire starts and we see the fire grow, nine people came out of the fire. They came out of the side of the building, in the front of the building where the cameras could still see us from two or three miles away. I came out of the

side of the building. The majority, many of the people in the back of the building, in the cafeteria area, especially the women and the children who are in the concrete structure. Now there's some documentaries they out now, like the A and E one which is very good. Up Inntol the end and up into at the the end of that documentary, they said that the Davidians themselves that it was a mass suicide, which is, it's ridiculous. I

have denied this from day one. And then they also go on to say they don't understand why none of the adults grabbed kids and brought them out of the building. But well, they don't tell you. It's that next to the tanks. There's two tanks at the back of the building, and on the infrared video, next to each tank, we have fully automatic weapons fire from two different positions on

several several occasions. I think they counted something like ninety eight different shots altogether that you can see on the infrared that's at the outside of the building being shot into the building. So my question for them these tapes exist. How can anyone bring someone out of a burning building

if they're being shot down? And the SOSSA coincides with thirteen or fourteen of the autopsy reports that I read for myself that said about thirteen different people died from bullet once to the center of the head and the center of the chest. Jimmy Riddle was actually run over by one of the tags and his you know, his body was torn into pieces. It's just awesome to me how all these facts exist and they're still ignored. I mean none, none of the networks will touch this information

at all. Yet it's there, and you know I cannot. I mean to a point, I can understand it. Not everyone, you know, we're all Americans. We don't really want to take the system down. But I just want a better form of job. I'd like some of the murderers to go to jail. I'd like some of the planners through this thing to go to jail. Started getting raises, and they get their they get the promotions, they get their retirements, they get away with murder, and they should be serving

the American public. They we shouldn't be serving them. We shouldn't. It's not a dictatorship in this country. So if you mess up your position, you shouldn't get a raise, you should lose your job. And if you kill people, you should probably go to jail. And I don't care who you work for.

of people I'm not in contact with. I'm in contact with some of the kids actually, like David Jones's kids. I better not say, Hey, David Jones's children I'm in touch with that still live down there in the area. Yeah, I'm willing to be in touch with anyone who was who was close to the situation. I get the feeling a lot of people don't want to talk about a lot of family members, and that's you know, that's fine.

I totally understand that. You know, there's a lot of a lot of pain, a lot of destruction caused through all this. I mean, people still feel it today. There's there's people that lost a lot from from the government's actions that are still alive now.

to get on the stand. We had the corner that we wanted to get on the stand. We had these the cleary, we had expert witnesses. The judge would not allow any of our expert witnesses to testify. He would show what tape of the ATF coming out of the first day with people on there on the cars after being shot and wounded, but then they would cut the tape and they wouldn't show you when the ATF I went for the cameraman to throw them to the ground.

So it's like they showed the jury what the judge wanted the jury to see, and then made and these rules. It made it so complicated that the jury was confused. I talked to the jury four persons, and they didn't realize that that they wanted these people to get the a slap on the wrist, maybe time served. They had no idea the judge was going to give him forty years on their weapons violation that they thought they had thrown out. So that's that, and I mean that it was.

It was terrible what I saw at San Antonio. But was even worse is when we had our sivil case against the government. Years later, they gave us the same judge, Walter Smith, with the exact same you know, couldn't put on our We couldn't put on our own art, We couldn't give our own case, We couldn't have our expert witnesses testified. I've never seen anything like it. I mean, it's our civil case against them. Can you imagine not being able to have the same judge that is prejudiced

against you, who wouldn't let any expert witnesses testify. I hadn't to get the same guy in your civil case years later. I mean, the fixes in, folks, that's the only way they were going to get any kind of any kind of judgment from a jury that they wanted was to have this guy, Walter Smith at place, and he did his job. And you know it was to me. I walked out of that court room. My buddy John went with me, and the look on his face will never forget. He just said, I can't believe this is America.

I can't believe when I just wait this in that court room. This is like we're in Russia or some other third world country where where there's no justice whatsoever. And that's what it felt like. And that's one of the reasons Franklin had been angry for years. Is the lack of justice is the worst thing that can happen to a person. To know that that nobody cares, that there's nothing you can do, nothing you can say, the system goes on corrupt and you can't do anything about it.

That helpless feeling is the worst thing that can happen to a thinking person. It's very, very hard to live with.

allow them to live in my head. I'm going to enjoy my life. I've gone through the worst. Everything's gravy from here right now. So I'm trying to develop that and just say, you know, yeah, if I'm angry about it all the time, then my I give my oppressor's power over me. And I refuse to do that. Absolutely refuse you. They're not going to ruin my life anymore than they have. Absolutely not. They're not worth it.

didn't happen to me that happen to other people. If you really want to know, it's really the book. When I wrote the book, I wrote the book from my perspective as to what happened to me, and that's something I had complete control over, whereas I had no control over the series. But I'm not just in the series. I'm really happy with the job they did. I'm glad that humanized the people of Mount Carmel, which was the most important thing to me, and expose the government for

what they did. It's got people thinking, and it's got people talking about it again. And if they really want to know, they can read my book and say, Okay, this is what happened to this guy, and read Clive Doyl's book and say, okay, and that's what happened to Clive. Well, you might have a different perspective on it than I, and that's fine. I mean, everyone sees things different.