The TODO Group – Talk Openly, Develop Openly

The Open Source Way. This is our podcast series, SAP's Podcast series about the difference that open source can be. And in each episode, we will talk with experts about open source and why they do it the open-source way. I'm your host Karsten Hohage, and in this episode, I'm going to talk to Ana Jiménez Santamaria from the TODO Group. Hi, Ana.

to be here!

Ana works as the OSPO Program Manager of TODO Group at the Linux Foundation, that is . She advocates Open Source Program Office adoption and education across organizations worldwide. Formerly Ana worked at Bitergia or Bitergia, I don't know.

That is a Software Development Firm in Analytics. And Anna has an MS in Data Sciences from URJC, which is Universidad de Rey Juan Carlos. Is that correct?

did it. It's Rey Juan Carlos University. That's correct.

right, okay. And apart from having a master's degree in data science, I've learned so far, you are a woman of many talents. For all you told me. Is it true that you sing Japanese in a band?

that's correct. In my spare time, I do have a band. I've been learning Japanese for almost eight years now. And then on the other hand, I sing. So I said, well, why not create a band and sing in Japanese? So, we have like an Anime Band singing fully in Japanese.

are you famous in Japan already, or?

no, actually, so, it has part of education to try to bring to the Spanish people, like getting started into Japanese culture thanks to the music, and learning Japanese through the songs and so on. So, it's targeted mostly for Spanish speakers.

have to confess, that's probably necessary all over Europe. I think there is one Japanese band that I'm aware of. They're pretty weird. Let's not mention that name, unless anyone should look it up. Anyway, except for these kinds of things. You started in marketing at Bitergia.

already have your data science degree then?

actually, I always say it's been a weird journey, right? Like how someone that comes from marketing changes to a developer or engineering role that is data science. So actually, I started in Bitergia in a marketing position, but I then started quickly to move into more of a developer role, community building, open-source projects because Bitergia had a 100% open-source platform. So, that's why I get into open source.

you started in marketing, went on to data science, you speak Japanese, you make music. I take it you're one of those people who say language, arts, math, science, doesn't matter. I'm interested in all of them. Is that right?

mean, it's more about like, what do you want to achieve? And whatever it takes, you just learn it.

sympathize with that, yeah. Anna, let's get to our actual topic here: TODO Group. Who is that? What is that?

those who are not aware of TODO Group, it's a Linux foundation, open-source projects, and an open community of Open Source Program Office practitioners. So OSPO term, it's about organizations that are managing open-source strategy and operations . And they decide to put like a dedicated team, a group of people, open-source specialists to deal with that. So, we found out that there was a big group of practitioners there, and that's why, how, TODO Group was created.

one say that the TODO Group is basically the OSPO of OSPOs?

well, technically yes. It's like an OSPO community. So, you're going to find there are a lot of OSPO experts and professionals around.

you happen to know, how long has the TODO Group been around?

I think it started in 2012. That's been a long time, but it has evolved a lot because in the last few years the OSPOs have been growing massively. So, in the past there were just a few big companies, mostly from the states, saying they have an OSPO. But now when you ask even in Europe, in Asia, in other parts of America, you're going to find organizations saying they have an open-source initiative dealing with policies and a strategy, or an

that here in Europe, and especially Germany as well. There are companies where you kind of think, well, you do something industrial, something one can touch, and then you realize, wow, you have a strong software department of course, and you have an OSPO, okay, like Mercedes or someone. In the end, it's pretty obvious, but one doesn't think like that at first

has also content. So, basically the main outcomes that we produce is best practices and guidelines . Because we, in our community, we say there is no broad template to build an OSPO. Like we cannot say, this is how an OSPO should be structured, because it changes depending on the organizational culture. And that's why many OSPO practitioners just share in the public sphere the policies, or the processes, or best practices, and we try to put that in a neutral space, that is TODO group.

it's guidelines. Does it go by the name of guidelines, or?

we have TODO guides, and we also do reports and research studies. Like for instance, we run a yearly status of OSPOs to try to understand how the OSPOs are evolving and get the pulse on OSPOs worldwide.

what they're concerned with, and so on. Or just like.

are different questions. So, for instance, like how OSPOs are helping sustainability of open-source projects, how are they dealing with security issues, the structure of the OSPOs. Like, is there any tendency or specific structure that a lot of OSPOs are adopting? Is that changing? If you're talking with OSPOs in the States, or OSPOs in Asia, or OSPOs in Europe, and more things. Actually, to be honest, I think in a few months the 2023 OSPO survey will come out. So, we will see what's going on.

Provide us the link once it's there, then maybe we can, post publication of this podcast, even add it to the podcast later on. Okay. So, I take it TODO Group is a place for discussion and community. It produces, publishes mostly guides, guidelines, sometimes tools, like the repo linter you mentioned, right ? Okay. And who are the people, in the end, who create all

the TODO structure. So, we have the contributors, and if you go to the GitHub TODO organization repos, you will find like a career ladder for people willing, that they are willing, to contribute, but they don't know how . And they want to know like the contributors' roles that exist, the level of commitment, the benefits, and so on. So, that is for contributors. You can become a maintainer of the TODO G roup and OSPOlogy, that is one of our most popular repos there.

you mentioned that very briefly. How was that contribution ladder again? I mean, I guess, level zero is you just read things. And beyond just reading things? How was that again?

we have the observers. We do have a lot of observers in TODO, that, they use the resources, maybe they somehow attend to some community calls, but that's all. And then we have the contributors, that are people that actually serve us for issues, or submit pull requests on different projects.

beyond that, there is like no particular expectation for members or anything, right? Only if you want to become an approver, or a maintainer, you have to invest a certain level of, as you just said, I don't know, approve, or merge, or whatever, so and so many pull requests. But apart from that, I can be a member of the TODO Group and also not contribute.

ideally, we ask, like, if you're not active in the community, they can step out, and they can say that. But this is not mandatory. That is for organizations supporting the TODO Group, like you know, members, associates, and so on. For maintainers, I think, there is like a requirement, and they need to be active. I cannot now recall like the specific criteria, but for contributors there is indeed like some kind of commitment.

okay. I think I understand that. Let's maybe look at the process, how it comes to any kinds of outputs, like the guides for instance . From idea, somebody saying: 'Oh, we should produce a guide on this and that.', to the actual output. How does that work in such a partly organized, partly loosely organized community?

that's a really good question because in our past steering committee discussions that we aim to improve that process. So, we now have GitHub discussions in one of our most popular repo, that is OSPOlogy. And in there the community can file issues and proposals. So, one example is, for instance, the OSPO Japanese community wanted to create like an OSPO Japanese local meetup in native speaking.

beyond the contributors and maintainers, I take it from you mentioning it right now, there is, of course, also a steering committee . Who is on that? And I guess from what you just described, it becomes clear what the steering committee does: do we even deal with the suggested issue or don't we, and things like that, right? How do you get on the steering committee?

So, every year the steering committee, they have seats for, I think it's, two years period. And there are elections and then also appointments from the other steering committee members. So, we have like two kinds of seats, and this is happening every year. In fact, I think in a week or so I will send the call for nominations. So, everyone that has a presence in the community, that is an active contributor, can become a nominee by submitting a form that we share.

that only done by this kind of voting or are there some fixed seats? Like there's always something from the Linux Foundation in the steering committee?

really. So, there is the appointment. So for instance, the steering committee members, that are right now serving, vote for, I think, it's one or two seats. Like, I believe this person, that was a nominee, can be elected, and that is appointed by the steering committee members.

let's maybe not get too deep into that. But concerning members still, anyhow, how does the TODO Group grow? Like, how do you recruit? And I'm asking in front of the background that I just mentioned Mercedes before, and I think I did not see them as a member of the TODO Group so far. Although, I do know they have a pretty strong OSPO and open-source initiative. How would you go about let's have Mercedes in the TODO Group for instance.

So, as I mentioned, there are three kinds of ways you can support TODO. So for instance, if you want to support TODO as a general member, because your organization doesn't have an OSPO, there's two criteria. I think it's being a Linux Foundation member, is one of them. And then the other one will be, to be committed to open-source strategy and policies like have someone, even it's part time or not, working on policies, processes and strategy on open source within the organization.

guess a lot of it is also, maybe there hasn't been a strong touchpoint yet, or anything, and that's just simply why. So, it's rather organically how TODO Group grows.

How about you, though? For all I know, you are actually an employee of TODO Group. How did you get there?

I got an offer, opportunity, I think it's been now almost two years. Well, one year and a half maybe, I don't remember. But so, it was the role of OSPO Program Manager, that is my official role right now. But in technically I do a lot of stuff. I do like, yes, community management, but I also do project manager. Trying to keep the repos clean, updated, automating process to ease contributions.

role of you? Does that mean you're automatically on the steering committee, or not?

steering committee, I'm not part of the steering committee . But the steering committee meets with the program manager, that is my role. And for instance, I prepare the agenda. I make sure, like, all the questions, issues are raised, and organized, and all that.

you're not a member, but you're the facilitator and the moderator of it.

correct.

I understand. And are there any other employees of TODO Group?

full-time. So, I was the first . When I was hired, they told me, like, TODO Group didn't had, at that point, any like full-time employee because it was a community driven effort. It's still a community driven effort, but now I have like one full-time person trying to help on their task. Although, I have like the LF support. Like for instance, if we need engineering support or marketing support, I can reach out to people in the LF team, but they are not working directly to TODO.

total sense. And I don't mean the following completely serious. But anyway, everyone out there meet Ana, she is the TODO Group . Or, or at least the only full-time employee. That's why I'm saying that. Anyway, with that role what would you say, in the long run, what are the strategic goals . If you could make them, or as far as you're aware of them. The long-term vision of TODO Group?

one of the repos is called governance repo. So, everything we've talked about, the general membership, the charter, and so on . All of that is public, people can find it in the governance repo, and in there you will find also that we develop yearly goals. So, our three goals are based in cultivate growth and adoption of OSPOs, grow the TODO community, and create value for community participants and OSPO associate general members and ambassadors.

have now mentioned the governance repo, one of many, I assume . Famous before last question: Where do people go if they're interested to learn more, like there may be some obvious websites? Are there any secret tips that you'd give them?

website is a great space. There is a page that is called todo group.org/community and if you want to get started, we had onboarding guidelines for both community members and general members. So, I think that is a great place to start. It will give you like an overview on all the different channels, working groups, and workflow that we follow . And of course, the TODO GitHub repo organization that has like all the different repos, it's also a great place.

will, of course, as usual, have all the most important links published with the publication of this podcast. Last but not least, the usual question, about, what are your three, maybe four main things, key takeaways that you would want everyone to remember from this episode?

the first one is that I believe TODO Group can be a great place for people willing to learn more on Open Source Program O ffices and gain experience of Open Source Program O ffices. You don't have to be within an organization. You can be a student, also, willing to help, to get started, or change roles in your open-source career. We always welcome the community and in TODO you can get your ideas getting started.

. If that's enough, then thank you very much, Ana, for being our guest today. It was nice to have you here.

thank you so much, I have to say to all the organizing team for inviting me. It has been great, and a great chat. Thank you. Thank you all.

more than welcome. And thank you out there for listening to The Open Source Way. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it and don't miss the next one. Usually, we publish every last Wednesday of the month. You'll find us on openSAP and in most of those places where you find your other podcasts like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and the likes. Thanks again and bye bye.