Valerie Mason-John on Recovery Through Buddha's Teachings

have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dr Valerie Mason John, a public speaker and master trainer in the

field of conflict or transformation, leadership and mindfulness. Valerie is the award winning author of eight books and the co author and co founder of eight Step Recovery, using the Buddhist teaching to overcome addiction. Since its publication, it has won the Best USA Book Award two thousand fourteen and Best International Book Award two thousand fifteen in the Self Motivational and Self help category. Hi, Valerie, Welcome to the show. Hi.

It's a pleasure to have you on. We're going to be discussing several different things of years, but I think we'll spend a lot of our time talking about your book, eight Step Recovery, using the Buddhist teachings to overcome addiction. But before we do that will start like we always do with the parable. In the Parable, there is a grandmother who's talking with her grandson and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always

at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second and he looks up as grandmother. He says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Thank

you for this parable. It's a very strong parable and very interesting and I think if I had come across this parable ten years ago, I would have said, Yeah, there's the bad wolf inside us, and there's the good

wolf inside us. And where I am today is is that I don't tend to think in Julia is in binary bad or good, because in a way, when there's greed, hatred and fear, there's a reason why that greed and hatred and fear has arisen, and there's a reason why we feed that greed, hatred and fear because often that greed, hatred and fear is protecting us. It's protecting us perhaps because we've never been loved and we don't want to

be exposed about not being loved. So these toxins that I call greed, hatred and fear can be real protectors.

Of course, I agree that when we feed it, we multiply it, of course, But in terms of thinking who wins, I like to think that perhaps who withdraws back, who becomes a bit silent, who actually withdraws back so that we can be our true vulnerable self, Because often it's greed, hatred and fear is protecting that vulnerable self, that vulnerable it self, which was abused, which was violated when we were young. Yeah, so that's what I think about the

parable Robin and who wins, who dies. It's just how can one of those wolves step back, one of those demons step back, so that we can really be our true self, so that we can really be in the place of love, in the place of kindness, and in the place of bravery. That's very well said and very lovely.

I want to start by asking you just to share a little of your story, since we're going to focus a fair amount of this conversation around recovery and addiction, If you want to share your story of recovery and addiction, and again I know I'm asking you to do a very short summary of something that you could probably spend three hours talk been about, but maybe just paid the broad sketches, just so kind of people know where you're

coming from. Yes, as you know that I do have lived experience of addiction and in this moment living in recovery, and I would say that I've been in recovery from drugs and alcohol. I've been in recovery for a good twenty years. Yeah, A date because I never went into the rooms of twelve Steps, but definitely a good twenty years. And then I had disordered eating, which was so much harder to let go of. That was the last one

for me to let go oen. And if listeners are thinking, how is disordered eating an addiction, then please read the book It's a Recovery, or listen to it. It's now an audiobook, and you will really see how disordered eating can be an addiction. And one example I will give is that Eric, there were times forty years back when I was deep into that addiction and I couldn't even pass a food shop without not stopping and buying something.

And before I was even left the shop, there would be food in my mouth, and then I'd be trying to find a place to purge and throw up. And I was one of these signs when I was just like on a bender, binging, throwing up, binging, throwing up, and food got lodged in my throat in the windpipe, and I'm jumping up and down by the toilet basin, jumping up and down. Unfortunately it dislodged. I pass out

on What am I doing? Half an hour? Forty five minutes later eating, binging and purging again, and it was just that vicious cycle. And actually many people aren't aware of, not even seen it written in the literature, that many people aren't aware with something like the lima nervosa, there's a real attachment to the alter states. When you binge and the air is restricted, you lose balance, you drop things,

and you go into this coma like state. And then of course when you purge, there's a high in the purging, and so one can also get addicted to the high and to the alter states. One can get around this bollimia nervosa. And it's really interesting that I've just not seen anything written about the alter states you can have. And also in terms of in anorexic, because I was an erectic billimic, which means that anything that I told myself I wasn't going to eat, I would throw up.

I was actually anorexic. And then I just did so much of physical exercise my body couldn't cope with it, and I spun into bolimia and it was a hell realm for years. And that's been a good fifteen year is as I say fifteen years, it doesn't seem very long. Actually fifteen years actually when I when I think about it, but it was a real hell realm. So the cause, the cause of my addictive behaviors, gosh, you know, the

root of it is for all of us. I think we often hear one of my teachers Dr Gabaor and Matte say that everybody has trauma, but not all people who have trauma have addictions. But everyone who has addictions has trauma. And I had a lot of trauma in my life. I'd say I had racial trauma, sexual trauma, physical trauma, emotional trauma, neglect trauma. So when I do the ACE, you're aware of the adverse child experiences ACE. Yet when I do the ACE, I take off absolutely

practically everything on there. And I would say, actually, the bullima, and I was very aware of it when I was in It was very much connected to the sexual trauma. It was as if I was trying to purge the filth out of me. Yeah, and then the alcohol and drugs would give me respite. Yeah. Yeah. Your story is really powerful. You've been through so much, and certainly you talk very eloquently about the link between the trauma you

had earlier. You know, the bullying that's gone on. I know that's been a big cause of yours, is to work with bullying, and there's lots there. You say that addiction happens when activity is used as a means to escape from the distress of experiencing oneself, and I really

like that idea, you know. I think that shows the through line between bulimia and drugs and alcohol and gambling and shopping and sex and pick your thing right, when we look at it through that lens, it's a means to escape from the distress of experiencing ourselves, and then it's something that we keep doing. It takes on a

life of its own. And similar to the way you said earlier when you were talking about the wolves, I think it's so common that for a lot of us, our addictions are answers for a period of time, you know, for a lot of people, particularly people, and you may speak to this more eloquently than I can. They help us stay alive. They help us to cope long enough that hopefully we can find our way to recovery. Yeah.

I like the way you put that. And of course it was coming back to this parable and just seeing that these addictions. In fact, I said to somebody the other day that my addiction kept me alive. At one point I just couldn't bear life without my coping mechanisms. They gave me my joy and my happiness. Yeah, And I know in a sense I talk about not wanting to talk in in June is a more binary language.

And I think when I rewrite, I will tweat that because it's placing positive values at the center of our lives. And I like to think of expansive values at the center of our lives, because there are limited values and their expansive values. And if we have addictions, what's at

the center of our lives. The choice of our distraction is at the center of our life, and our whole life is arranged around when are we're going to get the next fixed, When are we going to be able to get in touch with the dealer, When are we going to get the next piece of food? When am I going to be able to switch on the computer?

And so it goes on and on and on, and we turn to these adaptations, these adaptive behaviors to try and soothe ourselves, and of course in the end they are limited because in the end they really do cause

us misery. And for some people it's so difficult to get out of that what I call the hellum or the hungry ghost of addiction, because if we begin to wake up and then begin to, as they say in the Rooms of Twelve Steps, look at the wreckage of the past, people just find that's so difficult to cope with. And so again, this these adaptive behaviors is protecting somebody

from even actually thinking about their past actions. So if anybody is listening it, just really know that if you are in active addiction, that there is a reason why you've had this addiction, and this addictive behavior is trying to help you, and we do have to learn different ways to help us because it's not only a matter of life and death. It can be a matter of being in prison and out of prison. It can be a matter of actually completely destroying your whole family life. Yeah, absolutely,

I love what you said. They're about that idea of expansive using the word expanse of versus positive. I found one of the questions I think it comes from the psychologist James Harllis. I'm not sure where it originally came from, but the question of when you're facing a decision to ask yourself, you know, does this expand me or contract me? And I love that question, because boy, that seems to cut through a lot of noise for me really quickly, and I can feel my way into that idea of

expansive versus contracted pretty easily for me. Working more and more specifically putting the spotlight on trauma, because of course, addictive behavior is one consequence of trauma, one adaptive behavior of trauma, and I see addiction as a trauma response actually because it's withdrawal. Trauma response is one withdrawals from the world, and when we're in that addictive behavior, we are withdrawing from the world, we go into our own world. Yes,

so definitely is a trauma response. I think i'd like to start talking about some of the eight steps. We're obviously not going to get through all of them, but do you have a way that you find to summarize them that's helpful. Let's see we can go through the

eight steps really quickly. What I'd like to say about the eight steps is that the first three steps are modeled on that Buddhist teaching the four Noble Truths, and so the first step is accepting that this human life will bring suffering and Eric this is a really important step because often people say the Buddha taught that life was suffering. The Buddha didn't teach life was suffering. The Buddha taught that because of this human life, we will

experience suffering. We're going to experience suffering because we're going to aid, we're gonna get sick, we're going to die, and we're gonna lose loved ones. And for me, when I first read this noble truth, it was almost as if the light bulb had come on in the room of my body, because I thought I was the only person who suffered. And not only did I think I was the only person who was suffering, I thought it

was bad to suffer, that I shouldn't be suffering. And so therefore this step just catapulted me into the rest of the world thinking, Okay, this is an aspect of life. Yeah. I had such a similar experience when I first was exposed to it, I just felt like, ah, finally somebody is telling the truth about this. Like, I had a very similar experience. I love the way you say it was like the light bulb went on. What did you say in the mind of my body. Yeah, something, that's

a great line. And then of course the second noble truth is is the causes of suffering, you know, greed, craving, and so the second step is seeing how we create extra suffering in our lives. And and I could really see how I was creating extra suffering in my life that that wasn't lock, it's and it's of course I was creating extra suffering in my life. And so I think that's really important because often people just aren't aware

that they are creating extra suffering in their lives. Today, I often think, am I putting the second dart in? You know, if we think of the two dark teaching? The first start is the pain, and there is pain. We cannot avoid pain. That's a whole another teaching, and I just want to say, we cannot avoid pain. Pain is experienced in the body, headonic tone, and that's physical pain as well as mental pain. I think that's really important because often we don't talk about mental pain as

the first start of suffering. Mental pain, physical pain first start of suffering. Because as we know in Buddhism, the mind is also a sense store, and so we have to come into relationship of how we create extra suffering in our lives. And then the third step is really interesting for me because when I came across these four noble truth I couldn't understand Eric, why the bird step was that there was an end of suffering. They're telling

me there's an end of suffering. And then the fourth noble truth is there is a way out of suffering. And of course I realized that if the third noble truth had been there was a way out of suffering, I wouldn't have believed you. Being told that there was an end of suffering gave me hope. And so this third step we called it, as I want to credit my writing colleague, Dr Paramavander Groves, we decided that the third step would be recognizing in permanent shows us that

our suffering can end. Isn't that beautiful? Just imagine, Eric, if you'd never changed, Just imagine, I mean to me, I just think this is such an uplifting step. Often people say that Buddhism is really kind of quite realistic, and I think, to me, it's so uplifting. And then the fourth step is this is the action. Now beginning to take action, being willing to step onto the path

of recovery, and discover freedom. And for me it was important to have this word freedom and not discover joy or love or whatever, because what does that look like freedom? When we have freedom, we know we've got freedom. And for me, it's the freedom from the prison of our minds. In the words of late Bob Marley, is free ourselves from mental slavery. No one but ourselves can free ourselves. And so it's just reminding us that if we want to free ourselves, we have to step onto the path

of recovery and then step five. This is our moral inventory. Sometimes people say, where's a moral inventory in the eight step recovery will if you want the moral inventory. This is the moral inventory transforming our speech, actions, and livelihood. And as you know, somebody who has lived experience of addiction can know how actually, when we begin to step onto that path, there are many changes that we have

to begin to make in our lives. And this is one of the places where we can falter and actually slip or relapse. And then, as I say, placing positive values at the center of our lives or expansive values at the center of our lives. Because whatever we place at the center of our lives, that's going to influence us what we do. And then a step seven, making

every effort to stay on the path of recovery. And I think sometimes when people are being in recovery for a while, they think, I don't need to make effort. What's all this effort about? And I say, today, in my life, making every effort to stay on the path of recovery is doing absolutely nothing. When a painful sensation arises in the body, as we know, painful vade in, a painful headonic tone arises in the body, we move

away from it, we push it away. A pleasant experience arises in the body, we want to grasp one to it, we want to feed it. And so that is the effort. How do we do nothing when unpleasant, pleasant or neutral experiences arise? And I just really want to say that

the neutral experience can be the most activating. You know, if somebody who has been new into recovery, perhaps been in rehab, come out of rehab second third week, life gets a bit boring, life gets a bit neutral, and that's when they relapse because need to shake it up a bit, need to spice it up a bit. And often, as we know, many people who have addictions not all, but many people grow up in chaotic environments and are not used to being in environments when things are going okay,

when things are calm. And then that eighth step is helping others to share the benefits I have gained and for me, I mean, of course, it's a resonant of one of the steps in the twelve step program. What I say is is to be really aware of this step because often many people they come into recovery, they get recovery, they're feeling really good, life is going well. They're so excited and they want to go out and change the world, and you know, be a public speaker

and run all these meetings. And in a way, what I say is that that's the easy thing. To run the meetings, to write the books, give the public talks. I do all of that. The hardest thing is to walk one's talk. How can we be recovery? Often say to people, the biggest gift you can give me is your recovery. The biggest gift I can give the world is my recovery. And that's not in the form of writing books. Is how can I be recovery? Say more about that? When you say how can you be recovery

or giving your gift of recovery. So for you or a person who's not, you know, engage in writing books, public speaking, all that sort of stuff. I think a lot of people sometimes go, well, what am I doing? So say more about how that benefits the world. It benefits the world. When I'm not under the influence of adapted behaviors, are more present to the world. I'm kinder to the world. I'm happier to the world. I get up in the morning, I go to work, I'm more

pleasant with people. Often people grow up in environments where people weren't present for them. So for me, living that recovery is too I suppose worker program. I mean that sounds quite rigid. Worker program. For me, I'm committed to my recovery. It means that there's no time off my recovery. It means that I do have a daily meditation practice. For some people it might not be in meditation. It may be a swimming practice, or a yoga practice, or

a journal in practice or can practice. And for me, the reason why I say this often I have people come to me and say, my daughter is really in active addiction. I don't know what to do, how can I help her? Can they see you or my partner is in active addiction? How can I help them? And I'll say to them, I say, well, do you drink No, no, no, no, I'm not an addict. I'm not saying that you're an addict.

I'm just curious. Do you drink you smoke marajuan? No? No, no, no, no, no, no no no. And eventually here, well, yeah, I have the odd glass of wine and you know, and might smoke the marajuan. And I say, the best thing you could do to help that person is to stop. But I'm not the addict. I don't have to stop. And I say to them, well, if you don't define yourself as an addict and you're finding it difficult to stop, how do you expect the person who you're defining has

got the addictions to stop? You can model that behavior. We can model that behavior in the world. I can model that behavior in the world that I don't need to drink alcohol. I wouldn't define as an alcoholic. I choose not to drink alcohol. I choose not to take drugs to model something in the world. To live recovery in a way, Eric I talk about the gross addictions because for me in my recovery, and I think I write this in the book, or maybe I write it

in detoct Your Heart. I think it's detoct Your Heart Meditations for Emotional Trauma writer in that book where I literally woke up in my bed one day and thought, oh my god, my biggest addiction is my stinking thinking. Okay, that in itself, how we get so intoxicated by these stories and we believe these stories, and just how that stinking thinking can destroy our lives. I remember writing the book with with param A Band and we had disagreement.

It was a beautiful piece of work that we did together, a very ego lesson, and we had this agreement that we had to agree with everything that went in the book and one person would write the chapter and the other person would read it and then write into chapter. And that's how we worked. And I, as you know, in the book, we talked about stinking thinking being an addiction and Parama Band, who said, I can't have that.

My peers will think I'm crazy. He was a top psychiatrist specializing in alcohol and drugs in the National Health Service in England. It's like absolutely no way, and I looked Paramiband in the eye and I said, Parama band, stinking thinking is the cause of road rage. It's a cause of physical abuse, it's a cause of sexual abuse. It's the cause of violence. And he relaxed and it went in the book and nobody thinks he's crazy. Okay, So again, this is one of the fears being around

people and working with people with alcohol addiction. One of the fears is when you let go of the alcohol is a depression. This is why some people use the alcohol to mask the depression that that's been their pros ac In a way, I see addiction as self medication totally. It's self medicating. I often say the best antidepressant I ever found was to drinks, you know, and I've wrestled with depression my whole life. It's something I work with

and to drinks was magic. Now, of course we know that it never stayed at two drinks, but yeah, it was an absolute self medication. And my best prosact today is meditation. And the reason why is often people wonder why the relapse. And what I'm really aware of is is that often we can be working at looking at the underlying causes, and of course if you take away the adapted behavior, what's gonna deal with the underlying causes,

which is why people relapse. It's just too much. And so what meditation can do is to help regulate the central nervous system. Because anybody who has addictive adaptive behaviors, the central nervous system is out of whack, even those people who had love addiction, because people are aware that there are studies saying that the amount of endorphins and brain releases when somebody injects themselves with heroin is the same amount of endorphins that the brain releases when somebody

thinks of somebody who's got that love addiction. Okay, so you think the central nervous system is constantly out of whack, and we need something to help regulate the central nervous system. And in a way, people are turning towards these adaptive behaviors to try and regulate the central nervous system. It disregulates it. And something that meditation can do, if we're able to be receptive to it, is to regulate the

central nervous system. And this, of course is so incredibly difficult because one of my teachings is about coming home to the body, but not but and it's an oxymoron because most people with those adaptive behaviors are one and to get out their body. They're wanting to get high, They're wanting to have altered states. And why do they want to be out of their body. Many of these people have left their bodies. They switched all feelings off, shut all sense tools down. Nobody is home, thank you

very much. Yeah, and so the scary thing of coming back to the body and being in the body can be so activating. Yeah. And so you bring up some really good points. And I think one of the things that I'd like to get your thoughts on are for people who find meditation difficult for some of the reasons you're bringing up. You know, either a they sit down in the stinking thinking just kicks into a high gear or be coming back into the body is an uncomfortable thing.

You know, for a lot of people, meditation feels very difficult. What are some ways to work with yourself in men meditation that you think help ease some of those things. What are some pointers or guidelines that people might find that might help them to stay with it a bit. I think that we need to throw the word meditation out because this is the problem because the word meditation defines a particular specific behavior, and that behavior is sitting

cross legged, sitting in a chair, meditating. Okay, we know that there's walking meditation, and we know that the Buddha talk that, well, let's say the Buddha talk that meditation was walking, sitting, lying, standing. The Buddha talk meditation is everything,

and yet we don't teach meditation as everything. And so for me, when I'm working with people who find meditation really difficult, I think you have to work with these people on a one to one because the issue is that you can teach meditation and you have absolutely no idea what's gone on in that person's experience. And so if we're thinking of trauma informed teaching meditation one of the things we need to be doing. And I do

this in groups, whether it's a big group. After I've led a meditation, I asked people to put in a chat what was it like for you, and to give them the invitation to say that that was a really difficult practice because even if the person doesn't speak, they hear that somebody else had that experience. That can be really affirming because the reality is meditation can be activating that meditation of sitting there becoming aware. I can remember when I became aware of all that papantia, all that

proliferation of thought, Oh my god. And I can remember my teachers saying, just turn it down like a radio to eating myself, because who listens to the radio? Now? You know when we do what the internet that you know the way, just turn it down. And sometimes I would say to somebody that if you do meditate and everything becomes so much, you can just imagine that you're standing at the gas cooker and you're just turning the

flame down, turning the flame down. Of course, if one is really activated, let's say stop, just stop, stop, get up, walk around. You know, there's so many things we can do. You can lift up your head, put your head side to side, start labeling what's in the room, lamp, window, trees, books,

and just labeling what you can see. If you're somebody who wants to meditate and you're finding it really activating, and then I'm saying, work with somebody on a one to one basis so that they can teach you to meditate and hold you with what is arising in the moment, because what meditation can do is uproot what's the unconscious. It's interesting that more and more plant medicine is becoming more and more than norm for people in the recovery world.

And one of the things it said about plant medicine is that it can cut through to the unconscious. Meditation can do that as well. One of the reasons why I got into meditation eric was because I could get high. I'm an addict at heart, you know. It was like, well, I came across, it was like, this is great. It doesn't cost anything, it doesn't take up any space in

my luggage, and I can get high. I can remember the millennium and all my mates are talking about the different parties they are going to be going too, and I'm like, forget it. I'm going on retreat for three weeks. Because I knew I would trip, I knew that I could have altered states. Meditation has become something different for me now, and I would say that actually, what things like aahuasca can do, and eboga or m d m A or jaguar meditation has the capacity to do that.

Of course, plant medicine is a lot quicker. You know, who wants to go on a month long retreat. Yeah, so that's the quick route. And I don't want to poo poo plant medicine because I know for some people plant medicine has really worked. It's given them their recovery. I was saying to a friend of mine the other day who was talking about a client, and I said, we cannot tell somebody what their recovery looks like. Person who comes into recovery has to be their own agent

of recovery. We cannot tell them you need to go to a twelve step program, or you need to go to a Buddhist recovery program, and you need to attend so many meetings. Doesn't work like that. We have to go into dialogue, and if they choose not to go to meetings, I would hold it, and if nothing is changing, I'd say, well, this is what you're trying. Maybe you

need to try something different. I think so much of early recovery, having been around this for years, that's the process I've seen with so many people is you're like, Okay, there's a problem here, all right, I'm gonna do something about it. And we do a little something and it doesn't work, and we go Okay, I cheez, all right, well, then we try something else. That's why I think that phrase in a a of keep coming back is so

powerful because that's the core message to anybody. For me, is like, if you got an addiction, just keep trying, do more, do something different, but keep trying. My belief is if you keep wholeheartedly trying to the best of your ability, there is a path for you. I know. And at the same time it can be so soul destroying. I was one of those chronic relapses and it was like and in fact, in the end what made it

easier for me although it was still really hard. I would say, okay, two steps forward, one step backwards, to step forwards, one step and so realizing okay, I'm still moving forward and it is so destroying. And I say the same with meditation, especially mindfulness, keep on coming back.

This is the whole thing with mindfulness is coming back to the body, coming back to the breath, noticing you're distracted, because this teaches you if you can come back to your purpose, you come back to the breath, come back to the body, you notice you're distracted, and you can bring yourself back. Guarantee when you walk out of that meditation hall, and you notice that your mind is distracted by thoughts of wanting to pick up and news, you

can bring yourself back to the focus. It's like walking along the street and you need to be somewhere for five o'clock and you've got ten minutes to get there, and you bump into somebody who wants to talk to you. Just say, I gotta keep on going. I've got to come back to my purpose. I've got to come back to my focus, and I got to keep on going. And that's it's really it's training the mind and think in a way. In recovery, we need to talk about training.

We're just retraining the mind, and that's what we're doing. The whole thing of neuroplasticity is there for us. We're training the mind to do something different. Because some people, or many people come into recovery have been living addictive lize the majority of their adult life. Yeah, you know the points we've been making about trauma and adverse childhood experiences. Even for a lot of those people, not only have

they been living with addiction for a long time. Our life before addiction was not exactly It wasn't like we had it all buttoned up and knew what we were doing at that point. You know. I mean I think about me pre addiction. I mean I think by the time I was seven or eight, I was in deep emotional trouble. You know, I just was not in a good place. It didn't manifest as addiction. I mean it manifested for me as I basically stole everything that wasn't

nailed down. That was my first coping mechanism, I think, you know, but yeah, I think it is that retraining of the mind and that it takes time. Thank you for saying that. It's true that if I think of my addicted behaviors growing up in an orphanage, and we'd get pocket money in and we'll go to the sweet shop and buy all these sugar and all the sugar, and we would just eat all that sugar in one day, and it was like yeah, And and stealing was an

addictive behavior. It was shoplifting. Stealing was very much an addicted behavior, which got me incarcerated. You know, I was incarcerated at the age of fifty. It was an addictive behavior. Yeah. And and sniffing, you know, sniffing shoe conditionally, you know, I never got into Evo stick because a lot of the kids were sniffing Eva stick. This is when I was like, well people sniffing Eva stick, but people are

doing such crazy things on the EVAs think. It was like, nah, I was, I don't think I'm evil to evil, but I did get into sniffing shoe condition because it was like playing Space Invaders, showing my age playing Space Invaders going on a trip with the very hands still there

with the cloth. You know. Yeah, There's so many parts of the eight steps that I could jump into, but I want to hit on something I've I've recently just been doing some teachings and my teaching song and a poem episodes that I do about taking refuge in the

Three Jewels because I was thinking. It came to me because I was thinking about, you know, the concept of a higher power in a and when I sort of came back to get sober the second time, I did it again through a twelve step program, but I was like, I need a higher power, and you know, I really sort of thought of wouldn't have phrased as the three Jewels at that time, but that's sort of what I was taking is my higher power, And so I was wondering for a minute, you could just talk about, you know,

kind of what the three jewels mean to you. Um, and I'll just you know, for people listening who've heard me say three jewels six times now. In Buddhism we say we take refuge in the three jewels, and the jewels are the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sanga. But maybe you could just say a little bit about what those things mean to you. This is a step six placing positive values at the center of our lives. So as you can see, we've secularized it rather than going

for refuge. What it means for me is firstly placing the Buddha, not the human being. And what the Buddha achieved, the Buddha woke up. The Buddha achieved freedom, freedom from the prison of their minds. That's what we're placing at the center of our lives. When we go for refuge, it's it's we could say, it's a it's a reliable refuge of waking up to the truth. When we had addictions, we went to refuge to drugs or to the pawn, or to the food, or to the sex, or to

the alcohol. That's what we went for refuge, to to seek refuge, to seek shelter, and so we're placing the ideal of waking up to the truth. And this is really interesting because often we hear people teaching that the Buddha vowed to gain enlightenment and the Buddha didn't, or the prince vowed to gain enlightenment and the prince didn't vow to gain enlightenment. The prince vowed to find an end of suffering. That's what the prince models for us,

that there can be an end of suffering. So what we're placing at the center or going for refuge too, is an end of suffering, that there can be an end of suffering life. Again, we weren't taught that life is suffering. That was just that things we would suffer because certain things could happen, and there can be an end. And so we're going for refuge to that ideal. And then the dama are the teachings, the teachings that point to the truth, and there are many teachings. The dama

really are teachings. It's the body of teachings, and it doesn't have to be the body of Buddhist teachings. For those of us who are Buddhist. We do reference the Buddhist teachings, and also I reference other teachings as well, teachings that point us to the truth. And in a way you could see that do our addictions point us to the truth. These are the team jeans, We constantly habitually going back, trying to find the answer, trying to

find solace, trying to find piece. One of the things I always say is Eric that as a kid, I remember the adults they were obsessed around madness. Would always be like, be careful, the men in the white coats will be coming after you. There was always this conversation about madness, and I can remember Auntie Hazel Will talk about saying the first sign of madness was talking to yourself.

The second sign of madness was looking for hairs growing on a palm of your hand, and the third sign of madness was finding hairs growing on a palm your hand. If only adults had taught me that the first sign of madness was habitually doing the same thing hoping to get a different result, because that's what addiction is, is like habitually, we're doing the same thing looking for a different result, and we're just actually getting that same result.

And so again the Dama is pointing us out of that hell realm of addiction is pointing us in a direction of freedom. Teachings that point is in the direction of freedom. And then the vigils sometimes are called the triple gem, the same good of community. And in a way, it's firstly to remind us that there are people who have woken up to the truth. There are people who have liberated. We can talk about small liberation, big liberation.

There are people who have put down the alcohol, who have put down the drugs, who put down the pawn who don't pick up. That is freedom and reminding us that there are community people who have done that, who have gone beyond, and also to remind us that it's so much easier to do it in community, because I think one of the things that holds many of us back who had addictions is the shame of asking for help. We can do it ourselves, and we do it with

ourselves turning towards the drugs. If we think of the Prince's enlightenment, how the Prince became woke is because the Prince actually did ask for help. The Prince touched the ground up being. When Mara came into the Prince, like the negative, Mara represents these mental states. The Prince was, as selled by every mental state, had to see through them, not to be waived by them. And that last one of doubt, and we can all have doubt. Doubt can

unhinge us. And in that moment, the Prince touches the ground and says, let the earth Goddess be my witness. We are interconnected. We need to do it in community. The majority of us. There are those few people who seem to be able to do it on their own, but the majority of us, we need to do it in community. That's where I see going for refugees, placing these three things at the center of our lives. That doesn't mean to say that our relationships aren't important or

our work isn't important. In a way, we could see that what is our relationship pointing to what is our work pointing too? And then come into this thing of higher power for me, mindfulness, the breath is higher power. The breath is higher power. Loving kindness is higher power. There's a line that you have in this section of the book that I love you said. I'm also not saying that you have to place these three ideals talking about the three jewels at the center of your life

to overcome addiction. I am saying that you have to find positive and healthy things to put at the center of your life if you want recovery. And I think that is just so well said, you know, because it's one thing to say, all right, I'm taking this thing away. I'm taking away your coping mechanism is in essence, what's happening to us in recovery. Okay, coping mechanism, even though it's not really working or it's actively destroying, you know, at least by the point I was at, take it away.

That's not enough. Now what becomes the center of my life? Because I've taken what was the center of my life, everything oriented around getting high. Now that's gone. And so I love the way you know you're saying, but you do have to find some positive and healthy things to put in the center of your life if you want recovery. And I think that is such a truism. And it may simply be a meeting. It may simply be going to a meeting. Yeah, Placing meetings at the center of

one's lives. Meetings are very powerful because you know, the one thing that the Twelve Steps has I nearly said, taught us. One thing that twelve Steps brilliant at is the power of story, of telling a story so you can be heard, so that people can hear your story. Well, Valerie, we are at the end of our time, but thank you so much for taking the time to come on. I have really enjoyed chatting with you and enjoyed your book and all the great work that you're doing. Well.

Have links in the show notes to your website. I know you've got other books that are out. I think you've got another one that's coming out. I'm not quite sure what data comes out. Yeah, what date is the new book out? I have a book that I've just edited, an anthology, which will be coming out in June July.

But I just wanted to say with the Eight Step Recovery that there are meetings in several continents, So do look on my website or Buddhist Recovery dot org where there are many, many different kinds of Buddhist recovery meetings. So check it out see what an eight Step recovery meeting is like. Yeah, yes, I cannot encourage meetings and community enough for people who are trying to find recovery.

It was and is so important to me. Again, thank you Valerie so much for coming on for the work that you're doing in the world and spending some time with us. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, Please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community. With this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support now. We are so grateful for

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