Uncovering the Truth About People Pleasing with Dr. Aziz Gazipura

just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is doctor

Aziz Gazipura, the world's leading confidence expert. He teaches people how to learn confidence so they can eliminate self doubt, master conversations, accelerate in their careers, and create deeply fulfilling relationships. Azzi's completed his doctoral training at Stanford and Palo Alto Universities and is the founder of the Center for Social Confidence. Today, Eric and Aziz discuss his new book, Less Nice More You, Stop Hiding and Become the most bold, authentic version of you.

always do. And in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One it's a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. The

grandchild stops. They think about it for a second and they look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins, And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

And instead of running out and doing the thing to do is to actually calm yourself and breathe and come right back to here and just let that story go. And you might go talk to that person, you might go do something, but much of the time not It's a real tricky wolf, that one, because it's like you're not gonna pay attention to me, Oh, look out, I'll enjoy your life. It's gonna be horrible. And so then

it hooks you. And so the thing to do is nothing, And that's the wolf really have more silence of breathing, just being right here is the one that I'm experimenting and practicing and helping other people feed a lot more right now in my life.

And if you do, there's a problem, you've done something wrong, you've got to fix it deep anxiety or shame around it.

And I also have a value of My top value is kindness, and so for me, discerning between those two is often really really difficult, And so I thought we could start there, like, how do we tell the difference between when we are being kind expressing a value and when we are being nice, and by nice, I want to really sort of emphasize the part of the book that you talk about where it's not so much we think of nice as a value, but in this case we're really talking about it almost in the sense of

a compulsion, or we're talking about it in a conditioned way of relating to the world, not a choice.

I'm a good person. And you might say, well, yeah, that's a good enough motive. Well you can hear underneath that. It's a thin layer away from fear and what happens if you don't, what happens if you can't, what happens if you maybe want to choose something else. All of that starts to create this rigidity, and there's a lot of anxiety right underneath that, not to mention complex situations like what about when someone wants something, but is it

the best to give it to them? Sometimes kindness might be saying no, right, So that's where it gets more complex. And kindness as a virtue, as a value that you want to live has a lot more wisdom and it looks different in different situations, whereas niceness is about following the rules so that I'm good and so that I am a good person. And why do I want to be a good person? Is it because I'm so virtuous now?

And underneath with niceness, it's I want to be a good person so I am seen in the right way and I can feel good about myself and I can fit in and I can have that sense if I'm okay. And so that's where it comes back to survival. So it might look like a very similar behavior on the outside, but it's an entirely different inner world.

So if you have the headspace for it, I'd love if you could just pause for a second and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today or tonight to feed my good wolf. Whatever your thing is. A really useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back

towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I've been sending little good Wolf reminders to some of my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages two times per week that give them a little bit of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to you too. I do it totally for free, and people seem to really love them. Just drop your information at oneufeed dot net slash SMS and I can send them

to you. It's totally free, and if you end up not liking the little reminders you can easily opt out. That's one you feed dot net slash sms. And now back to the episode, there's a lot in there I'd like to spend a little bit of time with. The first is the word should, right, because the words should has become a sort of negative word in the self help space, and I don't always think it necessarily is because sometimes my virtues tell me I should do something

right that's coming from a value. Right, there's a value that says you should do this, So sometimes I think it's a useful shortcut. What I think you pointed to, more importantly is underneath, what's the motivation. And I've told this story on the show a few times where when I got sober, I would notice this voice that just came and it would be like, I need a drink,

I need a drink, I need a drink. And as I was sober a little bit longer, that voice changed, and it changed in a way that on the surface won't sound better, because it was like I want to die. I want to die, I want to die. And so I got really curious about what is causing that. When is that showing up? And what I realized that shows up when I have to make someone unhappy. It showed up most often when I was stuck between two people,

like say, my wife and my mother. They both wanted something from me, and I couldn't give it to both of them.

is a disportionate amount of shame and fear. And so I know that again underlying this for me are some very deep rules about I have to keep you happy, I have to do the things you want, and that has plagued me, you know, for a lot of years. And so what has also plagued me, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, is this ability to discern right. And I find it like, let's take my mother as

an example. Right, there are times that I have a value of what I think I should do for my mother, and it may not be what I want to do in the moment, but it feels like a value. But then there are other times where I'm probably doing it because I'm afraid, and it does take a certain amount of and what you said in the beginning sort of slowing down and really going what is driving my decision?

And I love that you also sort of reference choice because of value, and making a choice almost a compulsion or a survival strategy, doesn't feel like a choice. I feel like I have to or I'm going to feel that awful feeling that I described that manifests itself in those voices.

somehow that would obscure their identity enough. I guess they would run in there and say, all right, there's a stick up, and they put the guns out and everyone puts their hands up, and then they take the money from the safe, right. And that's how it feels inside. When we're operating with the nice pattern, which is your wife saying this is what I need or this is what I want, or I'm not even saying it is

what I need. Someone indicating that they're upset or you even imagining they might be upset is like the equivalent of two guns on you stick them up, give me what I want. We're like, okay, whatever you want, whatever you want now. In that case, when we're hostage, when our hands are up, we're not thinking creatively and intelligent. We're thinking how do I freaking make this pain go away?

maybe for strangers, depending on the situation. But there's a creative flexibility where it's like, Okay, I'm going to be here for this and this and that, but you know what, I'm also going to take some time for myself over here, I'm gonna do this other thing. And it doesn't have this rigid fear. And so you're not being hostage other people feelings are not bank robbers holding guns at you, And that's the biggest insight to really set us free.

going to do any good? And that's another place where I often think it's another place where rationalization can sneak in and again get me to not violate the rule. And so how do you think about that because I do think there are times where I could say something, but why, you know, what's the point in me saying something? How does that factor into this framework?

like our most kind of awakened self. That's like someone does something and someone's being a little annoying or unconscious, and you just watch them and you're like, I don't need to do anything with that. That's not mine, right, And so we have that capacity in all of us. And I think the opposite of nice is not to just tell people whatever you think all the time, shut up.

The opposite is truth is authenticity, what is real And so if it's real that in this moment, I'm in a spacious state of awareness and they're annoying habit or whatever's you know, I'm not triggered I let it go. Then I don't say anything because why But what often happens When I was in my twenties and I was at peak niceness, I gravitated towards spiritual teachings, and that cart totally like nobody's business, like a moth to the flame, right, because I was like, oh, you mean I never have

to have conflict ever again, because I'm so awakened. And it's funny because now I listen back to his stuff, you know, twenty years later, and I'm like, oh, this is really useful, Like there's a lot of brilliant liberation in this. But when I was younger, it was a lot of like I'm going to use this stuff to carry on my avoidance. Really ultimately, yeah, and so it didn't really do much for me. It just made me

kind of deeper in the hole. So the point is really observing what's happening between you and the other person. Let's say I'm with my wife and there's something that's happening and it's bothering me, and it's bothering me, I tell myself, Hey, this shouldn't bother me, you know, just let it go. Okay, did that work? Honestly? No, okay, let me focus on my breathing. Okay. Did that work? No? Okay?

And now she's with me, and she's going to feel a little disturbance in the field, whether I say anything or not. She's going to feel my energy is tightening, I'm irritated or something. And so the point is to first and foremost know and be known to actually have true intimacy. Now, this might not be true in every single relationship. You got a boss at work who's going off the handle, and it's like, I need to be

known by my boss. Well, let's start with our close relationships first, right, because what happens otherwise If not, then we're playing the role. I'm going to play the role of the good husband or the good son, or the good wife or the good daughter, and the good daughter has no upsets and it's not real. And when we're trying to play that role and it's not real, there's going to be a consequence. And the consequence is going to be both internal. Our physiology is going to start

to experience dysfunction. That's why there's so much short term problems IBS, intestinal problems, physical pain, muscular tension, migraine, headaches, all kinds of short term problems with too much of this niceness, this separation from truth in our or it can even long term lead in and there's interesting longitudinal studies over twelve or twenty years where it can lead into actually much more severe health conditions because we've done

that for so long. And so the point is for the health in your body, but it's also this health and relationship. I was just speaking with a man the other day who he does that. He's, Wow, why what's the point if I let it go? Or it won't bother me by tomorrow. But what happens is there is a there's a distance that's created because what are you doing during that time when you're trying to get over it? You're blocking David schnarch I believe his name is. He's

a couple's therapist. He calls it blocking of mind mapping. So what happens is when you're with it, you're a partner or someone close to you, and you don't want to reveal truth. They say how are you and you're like, oh good, that's why they feel something and they feel that you're hiding something. And then but then you're trying to show you I'm not hiding anything, are you Okay, No,

I'm fine. I sign And that could be about between you and them, like there's a conflict or even just like you looked in the mirror earlier that morning and you're like, I'm a ugly old loser, right, and then you go out to the kitchen and your energy is kind of and you don't want to tell them that because that makes you seem insecure and superficial or whatever. So they're like, how you doing. You're like, I'm tell God good and they're like you sure, okay, yeah, yeah, fine, fine,

And you're blocking the mind mapping. So there's a vulnerability in letting yourself be seen, whether it's your insecurity or the nice person will be like, okay, maybe I'll reveal my insecurity, but reveal like I don't know my pettiness. I want control in a situation that I know I don't need it, but I want it. So I'm I'm

upset about this thing, like any of that. We're like, oh no, I don't want to be seen that way because I'm gonna play this role of husband or son or daughter in the right way because then I'll be safe and loved.

spiritual person. And particularly I'm sure you deal with this too, but when you get into a world where you're helping or guiding other people, that's like another layer of stray jacket that put on because you want to look to be a certain way. It's one that I fight against all the time, and it's why on the show I'm always trying to sort of be like, well, let me unveil,

let me unveil the parts of me that aren't working great. Right, So that spiritual thing is a real element, right, because in Buddhism, right, we're taught you know, right speech, you know, is it kind, is it useful? Is it all these different things? And so there's just all these layers that get sort of tacked on of trying to determine why am I saying something or not saying something, But what you've said there at the end about the hiding yourself.

That's the realization I've had over the last maybe six months, which is that in an attempt to have there be no conflict or even no disagreement in a relationship, it makes it very sterile. It does block connection, It blocks conflict, but it also blocks connection, and I've seen that far more clearly. The other insight that I had a number of years ago that helped me in this area was I thought about, like, well, I'm trying to maintain the piece.

I'm a number nine India Graham, the peacemaker, right, and so that's a role I like to play, and I think I do it well, but I sometimes am doing it in ways that aren't useful. And I had a realization a few years ago that I may be keeping the peace externally, but I'm taking all of that churn and all that potential problem out there and shoving it inside of me, and so I'm not keeping the peace inside me, I'm keeping it outside. And that for me was another level of sort of starting to wake up

to like there's a real cost to this. And I can just say in my case, like it's so many years of this sort of habitual response that I have to be very conscious when I'm in these situations to make the choice to be more open, direct and honest.

do have a personality. You do like these shows and not that, and you hate broccoli or whatever, and you know, and that's beautiful. And then though on top of that, will run these think of them like apps on your phone, and one app is the make sure no One's Upset at Me app, and that thing can be running and we're running and that things you know, when you download an app on your phone and then you close it out.

I'll say, would you like to keep this app running in the background, And we're like, yeah, yeah, I would like to put that running in the background. Let's let's have that one. And for me, one of the ones that I noticed is the one that runs in the background A lot is a form of worry, and it's

this generic, free floating something to worry about here. Yeah, And so I've been really also recently, it's in the last couple of months, getting a sense of Okay, there's another level here of freedom with what am I doing. And so I've been studying it a lot more and I've been fascinated a It's like it seems like I need to worry about the thing, Like now, this thing really is a problem to solve, And so I'll kind of run it through a little algorithm. I'll say, is

this a problem to solve? In which case we can have some time to think about it with a pen and paper and really put some focus. Is that what we're doing right now? It's like no, we're just kind of like picking out a scab, like okay, so let's put it down. And then I'll pause and I'll feel like oh, and then three seconds later, ten seconds later,

it's like what about this other thing over here? Yes, and I'm like wow, yeah, And it's been really amazing because with that awareness, though, you can have a lot more peace. But it does that, and sometimes people say, well, I thought you says there's a software. Can't I just put a new software in? It's like yeah, but you actually you can download a new app, but in order, it's not like your phone where you just press a button and it's installed for you. I think you actually

have to install it yourself. And the way that you do that is real time, present moment with the one you feed right like, and the more awareness you have

of the old pattern, you can recode it's right. And this is where I'll have a people that I work with create what's called a bill of rights where it's I have a right to say no. And so they notice themselves worried about oh man, someone's gonna ask that of me, and then they're anxious and they say, wait a minute, like, it's okay for me to say no. I have a right to say no. And the moment you do that, you're writing a new line of code.

Now you might need to keep doing that repeatedly again, But eventually, all of a sudden you start to run that new one. And then you're in situations where someone you feel relaxed because you're not hostage. You can say yes or you can say no. But the installing takes practice over time. That's what I've seen.

news is it tends to take a while. It tends to take a while to unravel deep seated mental patterns. The other thing you said in there that I love, it's about that sort of picking up a worry. A very early guest on the show, and this is nine years ago, probably six hundred episodes ago or so, and I still remember it clearly, and she described our minds as a problem factory. And I thought, what a great analogy,

because what happens in a factory. The minute one comes off the assembly line, there's another one coming right through. And that's the way my brain works with problems. I will either solve or set one aside, and it is immediately replaced with another.

we gonna do? Let's expand right. And then so if it's not scheming about my safety, then it's gonna scheme about Okay, great, but that's all going well, So how do we make this thing? And how do we get that thing?

channel right now? And you know this thing's only got five little buttons on it, but you know channel five might be right now. I can hear the sound of the rain, it might be that my senses, my hearing smelling something the air. That's one channel. Then you know, channel four might be something I'm engaged in doing. I'm opening this thing up just before this call, I was getting firewood for our wood stoves and stuff like that.

And then you know, one of those channels might be your thinking and sometimes we could just be like, oh, is this the time to be on that channel? Yep, And then you know you can get more granular. But what type of thinking am I doing? Yep? And there's sort of channels within the you know, channel one is like worry, problems, safety, and then channel two is like inspirational ideas. And I think that the thing that we don't realize is that we actually have the remote, but

it takes practice. I think one of the big things is the channel one. The dominance but so practiced, and it will use just like media does now. It will use fear to make you have to watch it. You have to watch. You know, you're like, oh, I'm not gonna look at the news today or whatever, and it's like there is a danger a common and you're like, well, what kind of danger is it going to get me? And that's what your mind will do. The problem factory is like, hey, if you don't solve the next problem,

something bad is going to happen to you. And this is nowhere more common than in and I know this the kind of very nice person because there are a thousand and one threats. There are as many threats as people that you know. Heck, there's threats about people you don't know. Because if anyone ever being upset with you is a problem, is a big danger, then your mind's going on overdrive. You got to be guarding the border a thousand percent of the time.

mental side. And I love the remote control and TV analogy because the first step is almost to wake up out of the fact that you're watching that channel, right, And what happens when we watch TV, particularly in a passive way, is we are just completely in it. There's no awareness that like I am watching TV and I am choosing this. So step one is always like, what's going on? Yes, yeah, you know what's going on in my mind, in my heart? What is happening? And then is it what I want to be happening?

if I am thinking, God, it's raining again. That sucks. That sucks. That sucks, It's more likely that next time it rains, I'm gonna say, that's rain again. It sucks. It sucks, it sucks.

another really useful framework. Yeah, so listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second,

pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present, can't it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, i'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget

what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well. So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good wolves together.

sick and they ghost. Yeah, I've talked to people that have done that, who their parents now dead, and they have all kinds of feelings about that particular aspect of it. Right. So it might feel like you have to, but that's because there's something binding you to that. And the key is you might still ultimately feel like that's the value you have, that's the right thing to do. But then the invitation is to take total ownership of your life

and say, yeah, I am going to choose that. It's the hard path, it's the road less travel, it's the uphill path for me, and I'm choosing that because I love my parent or because you know, honestly, some people it's like I don't love them, I don't even like them. It's like, yeah, but you know what I acknowledge the bond and what they've contributed to me in my life, and honestly, I wouldn't feel good about myself if I

just left. I feel like it feels right, and you see that language is very different than I have to and many of us will take not even these big dilemmas in life. We're just talking about, I have to get this thing done, I have to get to this thing on time, I have to get my workout in. And now our day is a stress resisting fest and it's really a painful way to live. And nowhere is this more common again than in the roles and all

the rules we have as a nice person. So this is one of the things I do with clients, is Okay, let's pick a role in your life. You know, you're a boyfriend or you're an employee. Pick one of those that you're feeling all a lot of mixed feelings about, or frustration or suffering or anxiety. I want you to write out the top ten rules of that. How are you supposed to show up? How do you need to be as an employee or as a boyfriend. And every time I've done this with a person, if there's disturbance

in them, there's frustration in them. At least half of those rules are so extreme, confining, restrictive. You know, never always, I should never be upset, you know, I know this one with relationships for me had so much social anxiety when I was younger that I couldn't even date, And then I started to overcome that. I started to approach friends, dating relationships women, and I actually learned how to be pretty confident, pretty charming, i'd say, in those very initial interactions.

But then the second after date two, where we're starting to become even if it's not officially titled boyfriend, but there's some something starting to form there. Maybe all of a sudden, boom, I'm in a role. They didn't put me in there. We didn't have a discussion about it. Are we gonna be monogamous? It was just like, I'm in the role because now she likes me, so now I have to go into that role. And now I'm basically

her boyfriend. But whether I agree to it or not, and now the boyfriend, ugh, even just thinking of that role, my energy system is like and I'm getting ahead of myself here, But we could talk about how you know this stuff and discern there is a very direct signal to your energy and if you get more attuned to it, when you start to try to push yourself into these roles that are not you, it really will be a

visceral sense for me. I'll often say likeugh, makes want a barf, Like I'll feel this and that's now, and I think about that old role a boyfriend. It makes me eh on a barf because it's so not me. But some of those rules were I have to do everything to make sure she never feels upset, she can never feel sad or disappointed. And then this one, this is a doozy to feel not just not upset, but

like the most revered, loved, special being in the universe. Now, this is like a twenty two year old dude trying to live by these rules. And sure enough, you know, I'd start to get close to someone and within a couple of weeks with these rules, I wanted to get the f out of there. I wanted to explode. It's like why. And it tripped me out because I was like, wait a minute, I really like this woman. She's beautiful,

she's funny, she's interesting, she's smart. I we all this connection, and then all of a sudden, two weeks later, I can't get far enough from her. And it wasn't her, It wasn't me. It was this pattern and the role that I had to be as a boyfriend, and all those rules, and so I think that's a key thing that we want to uncover in any place we're having that disturbance.

And that's actually not even true either. You can. It feels like you can't handle it because when they start to experience their emotions, starts to go up, go up, go up. I want to die. I want to die. Yeah, starts to happen. And that's the core everyone that I'm working with to help them is to get to that place where they can be with someone else having feelings and retrain their whole nervous system that this is not a level five explosion threat. This is someone's having feelings.

And this has been so good for me. I mean, I've been teaching this stuff but also just training and learning myself. And when I had young kids, we were talking about this before. My kids are eight and ten now, and when they were young, and even still at times now they're upset about something, they want something from dad, and they're having feelings, and I'll remind myself, this is just a little boy having feelings. Yeah, especially when they were younger, it would be like a full scale alarm

in me. And so either it would be this I have to fix it. I have to fix it, or I realize that I do need to say no here, or I have to go to this thing, or I'm choosing to go to this thing, And so they're going to be disappointed. But then I would leave and I would just the guilt. Oh, it's like a seven hundred pounds backpack. Oh, the guilt. Well, that's another pattern that we do, is we use all this self attacking guilt, and that has nothing to do with being a good person.

What that is is you'd rather feel that awful feeling because it's familiar and sort of under control than go to that being with someone else having feelings. And it seems crazy, but people will choose self attack all day long over more raw feelings. Which is loved ones in my life are going to feel painful feelings, sometimes related to me about me, sometimes related to something else in

their life. And I might be able to love them, I might be able to say something to them, I might be able to listen to them, and even still I don't control their feelings. And here's a thing. I don't know if there's a one to one correlation, but it's really high in my observation of people that very nice people are also very highly empathic people. They're highly sensitive people, and so when someone is feeling something, they're not just like, oh they're feeling that, it's like a

you know, their nervous system. I used to hate this in myself, like how sensitive I was and how much I'd feel so much of other people's stuff. And it's only in maybe the last five years or so that I realize, actually, that's my superpower. Yeah, And that's what allows me to connect and help people and have such great relationships too. So we don't want to turn that off, but we need to learn how to be more at peace with you having feelings, even if those feelings are about me.

to hurt. And again, it's this blended soup that I get into right where I'm realizing, like it is unavoidably true that I cannot handle your bad feelings, or let me say that again, I absolutely can handle your bad feelings. I don't like it. It is a state I will avoid, you know, if I'm not conscious of it. That is unavoidably true. And there is also a genuine I believe, and I've done a lot of self searching, a genuine desire that since I care about you, that you not hurt.

And so again it's back to what we've talked about before. It's the discernment of tweezing these different things apart to say, when am I acting out of a value and caring and the best side of me? And when am I acting out of this compulsion or this deep fear or anxiety around there being any negative emotion? Right, Because if there's a negative emotion in the room, I will know it. I mean you can put ten people in a room. Yeah, right, there's a negative emotion in the room, I will pretty

much figure it out and know it's there. Yeah, And then if I'm not careful, I will immediately go into how do I get that bad feeling out of the room.

information coming to you about emotion and energy. Just like people can hear better, some people have really sensitive I actually have pretty sensitive hearing where loud noises, Like I wear ear musk when we run our blender y because otherwise I'm like h so you too, you will perceive. So you go into that room and you will feel it, and you might know who it is, you might not.

You might get all kinds of information from that. And that's a superpower if the freedom comes in being able to allow that information to come and not have to do something to fix it. And that's like a form. I think this is fascinating. I think it's like a form of discomfort tolerance. I'm a big fan of cold immersion and cold plunges, and I see it as a similar thing. So when I do a cold plunge, my goal is not just an amount of time or an amount of degrees. I could stay on there long or short,

cold or what doesn't matter. My goal when I get in there is how much can I actually relax my body? Because otherwise it's like gold shivering. It's like and it's the same thing you get that data stream of information someone's upset, because how do you know if it's kind versus that kind of compulsion. I'd say that there's one simple question to ask yourself, which is truly in my nervous system, in my mind and my heart, How okay is it that someone is hurting or having feelings, yep.

And if it's okay, that doesn't mean that we're like, oh, it's okay, I'm gonna grab a sandwich, see you later. Right. You know, if it's okay, you're probably even more skillful at being with them. And when it's not okay, okay, then our attempts to console and help have a hidden hook in them, and our patience is short because it's kind of like, hey, look, I'm burning up here, I'm dying. This is burning my skin, my acid's my face. Are

you feeling better yet? And I'll see this with my kids, and I know which state I'm in, So what about my younger son. You know, you react to things and make loud sounds and sometimes I'm like inside, I'm so dramatic, like and so, and I know what's needed when he's in that state, and it's moving towards him with this kind of over the top sweetness, and just he likes to be called a puppy, thinks himself as a puppy, so it's like, oh, puppy, you know, and he's like nah,

and it's like, oh, puppy. And you gotta be a little skillful because sometimes if you come in too much. He's like, get away from me. And so when I've had times where I'm not okay with the feelings and he's like get away from me, then I'm like, all right, fine, just let him have his feelings, give him space. That's

what he says he wants. Do you hear the little edge in my voice, right, it's a little bit yeah, And I'm not yelling at him, but I'm all so like fine, you know, but just last night he was doing it. He was upset. He thought he was going to get some computer time and he wasn't and then it was too late, and so he's screaming and crying in the in the on the couch, and I just moved towards him, and he's like, get away from me, and I'm like, oh, you want me to get away?

Last time you were like this, when you calm down, you said you wanted a hug. Can I just sit next to you? Because in that moment, I didn't him to not cry. I didn't need to not be upset. And then I just kind of pour this like he's like, mom said I was going to be able to use the computer. I was like, you thought you were going to be able to use the computer. Yeah, she said, she said you were, and then you weren't, and it

was just this, really, I'm okay now. Honestly, in that situation, I guess if sometimes if I'm stressed, I have a hard time doing it, that one's not so hard. But what if it's your client or you're a colleague or a friend or your partner who's saying I'm upset because you said you're going to do this thing and you didn't do the thing and I'm disappointed. How often then inside we're like, oh, well, I have to fix your

fail legs. But true freedom and not niceness, which is authenticity, is really letting there be spaciousness that's not in here, that's out there. They're there, they're having this experience, and you know, how do we really get to that freedom? It's exactly what I just did there. Ah, it's the training in the cold plunge, and the way that we do the training is not in the moment when someone's yelling at you. I mean that's like game time, Super Bowl, right.

The freedom is when you're alone and you notice that pattern where you think of someone being upset with you, and you're like, that's the time to practice. Yeah, that's the time to let go, because then you get more and more training for when it's really happening in real time.

those roles? You know why? Well, I mean, I think it's fairly obvious. Right, It's very difficult, But there is a training that is happening amongst a number of people, and it's sort of learning to switch from empathy to compassion. And they sound like they're the same thing, but they're not. Is I'm feeling your feelings, which again, I think is

a useful stary. I mean, I think it's a useful starting place because most people who go into a caring profession are doing it because they care about other people's feelings, and so that's a useful skill, but if it's the only one you have, then those roles become overwhelming. Yes. Yeah, but you can remain compassionate, right, which is where I'm not taking on your feelings. I care about how you feel,

I care about you. I want to do the best I can by you, but I'm not feeling everything you're feeling, because that's untenable in those roles.

to burnout. So I have two aging parents and my brother is the one who lives in the same city as them, so he's involved in more of the day to day support and I'm more involved in kind of helping managing from AFAR and working with the finances and stuff. But he'll often tell me like, I'm really worried about you know, mom, and will tell me what's you know.

When I hear that, I'm like, Oh, does something happen you know as you fall and it's like, well, no, it's something in the future that might happen, you know. And I'm not saying, you know, yes, there's we want to look at what could happen in the future and have plans for different levels of care and all that. I think that's great, but it's not that it's like, a, this could happen, I'm worried about I'm worried about it.

And it's over time I realize he loves her and worrying is like a way of it's not just for others, for himself to feel like he's really loving her. And if he's not worrying, he's not loving her. And I'm like, whoa, you know. And it's the same thing with people burning out and health professions. He's like, well, if I'm not feeling everything, and they might want you to. That person might even say, if you really loved me, you'd worry about me. If you really cared about me, you'd be

dying right now. Yeah, And that's where we need to I call this in the books I teach about niceness is living in your reality. I understand in your reality that love is worry, but not in my reality. Now that you might not literally say that to somebody, but it's this is for you to know inside your head, in my reality, it looks very different. And then, and this is something that I think is so important around

compassion to prevent burnout. My wife's father is having a health issue, probably will pull through, maybe not, but also has a lot of suffering right now. Is a stint in his throat is esophagus so he can breathe better, and hurts to do all this, so he's in a tough way. And then she's feeling so much. He's feeling all that pain, and then another part of it gets upset, which is kind of like, hey, he lived his life like you know, smoking and doing all these behaviors. That's

you know, and now I'm feeling all this. And here's a phrase that I use to help myself have compassion and not burn out with working with people is I'm here and I love you, and your pain is yours to learn from and work with and shape you. I'm going to have my own pains. No one gets out of this life without pains. Mine might be different than yours, but ultimately they're all probably fundamentally the same. And so the fear that you feel when you're having the pain.

I can hold your hand and I can talk to you sometimes if I'm there, But that's your darkness to face. To find courage in that physical pain. That's like, oh, every time I do this, it freaking hurts. That's your teacher. You might not think it is, but it is your teacher to grow you. I lived with a lot of chronic pain when I was younger. That actually really shaped me.

So being alone in the darkness of night with pain that I cannot turn off that feels overwhelming is something that I have a lot of hours and training in and so I know, you know, when I have health issues or something comes up for me that's going to be mine to work with. Doesn't mean I'm alone. I might have someone to hold my hand. But I learned when I was young that someone could be with you and hold your hand, but then they got to go to sleep. Yeah, But I did know when I was

younger with a lot of chronic pain. That I do know now is that it isn't just me working with the pain. It's like I am always held and there's there's a bigger force that I can be with always. I didn't know that when I was younger. But that's for someone else to discover too, because you might try to tell on that and they may what are you talking about? Telling me about religion and God? Get out

of here, right, you know? And so just really, I think this is helpful for youone listening who has that burnout you know I'm gonna take everything on is just remembering that's theirs to deal with and I have my own to deal with. And I can be with you now, but I can't carry you.

dot net slash sms. It's totally free, and once you're on there, I'll send you a couple text messages a week with little reminders and nudges. Here's what I recently shared to give you an idea of the type of stuff I send. Keep practicing even if it seems hopeless. Don't strive for perfection, aim for consistency, and no matter what, keep showing up for yourself. That was a great gem

from recent guests Light Watkins. And if you're on the fence about joining, remember it's totally free and easy to unsubscribe. If you want to get in, I'd love to have you there. Just go to oneufeed dot net slash sms. All right back to it. We're near the end here, So I thought I would finish with a rule of thumb that you give, and I'll read it and then you can expound upon it for a moment, and then

we'll kind of wrap up. You say, here's a little rule of thumb to act by if you're unsure, right, and the unsure is kind of everything we've been talking about, right, Am I being kind? Am I being nice? Am I doing this out? Or compulsion? Am I doing this because I choose it?

that's the problem. That's the problem with this world is these people are so narcissistic in this and they don't care about others, And then they flip to the other extreme, which is a whole rabbit hole we're not going to go down, which is the straw man argument that a nice person who's afraid of changing that pattern because it's survival says, Oh, so you're saying the only other option is to be some jerk. You know it hurts other people? What why do we have to go to the other extreme?

I think is true, you know. And it's like, okay, yeah, I mean, I guess you did speak what felt true to you, But let's just say that was less skillful. What might be more skillful is I'm feeling angry right now, and I'm feeling angry, and I'm focusing on how you chose to do X instead of why. And in my mind, I'm imagining that means you don't really value me as much, and I'm angry about that. You know, that's a whole

nother level. But let's say you're working at, you know, communicating more skillfully, and you did say to the best of your ability what was true without blaming everybody and just owning your stuff. And the respectful part is the more skillful part. And if I did it that way, then it's on them. And I've seen this with people in close relationships, like I don't want to say what I really think and feel because it's gonna hurt my partner's feelings. It's like, but but it's what you really

want or like or don't like, or what's real? So what do you do? Do you stuff that? Do you hide it from them? Do you resent them for it? Or do you take the risk to be real? But what if they get upset? And what if I lose them? Well, are you losing anything real? Then if you're just hiding and playing a role or it's a fantasy bond. And so I encourage people to really ask those questions, and

that truly is a choice. It's a new line in the code that you can choose to say, Okay, I'm stressing about what I said and I shouldn't have done that. It's like, wait a minute, Wait a minute, that's the old code. The new code is did I communicate what was true in the moment? Yes? Did I do it as respectful as I could? Yes? Okay, And then you change the channel. You focus on your food, you focus on the sound of the air, you focus on the

next thing you doing, and it'll come back a second later. No, that's just like if you had It's like OCD at that point. Right then, it's like, yeah, I leave the stove on. Look, I've already checked the stove. When that thought comes back, we don't need to fight it. We don't need to turn it off. We don't need to freak out about the thought. We just say, oh, cloud thought.

And that's what we start to do, because at that point these are kind of obsessive thought patterns that we want to just let flow by.

the post show conversation. Listeners, if you would like to support what we're doing here, and we are a small organization that does always need support, and if you'd like access to bonus content like the conversation, Aziz and I are about to have ad free episodes, a special episode I do called the Teaching Song, and a poem, and community meetings with other when you feed listeners, we'd love to have you join our community, and you can do so at oneufeed dot net slash join a these Thanks

again so much. Like I said, every time I talk to you, I find it extremely gratifying. So thank you so much for coming back on absolutely.

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