Tony Dekker of Great Lake Swimmers

hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks

for joining us today. Our guest on this episode is musician and songwriter Tony Dekker, and those who know Tony as frontman for the acclaimed Canadian band Great Lake Swimmers will be happy to hear his new solo album, Prayer of the Woods. You can find out more about Tony Decker and this podcast and our show notes at one you Feed dot net slash Tony. Hi, Tony, Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really

excited to get you on. I'm a I'm a fan of your music and I was first exposed to you in the mountains of Colorado, which is, I will argue, perhaps the ideal place too to hear your music play years mate, you play sears. A lot of people try and write about nature, and I think we'll talk a little bit more about this as we go on, but it's really hard, I think, to do it in a way that's not corny or heavy handed. And uh, you know, nature has got that sort of um power and beauty

that's really difficult to capture. But amazingly I think your music does capture that with that power and beauty. So I'm really excited to have you and um. Our podcast is called The One You Feed and it's based on the Old parable where there's a grandfather who is talking with his grandson and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us who are always at war. One is a good wolf who represents kindness and love and joy, and the other is a bad wolf who

represents hatred and greed and fear. And pick your poison, and the grandson stops and he thinks, and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start the interview off by asking you what that parable means to you in both your life and in your work. Yeah. Well, I really like the parable, and I've been thinking about it a little bit this afternoon, sort of just in preparation, UM, of

talking with you. And for me, I think that, UM, a lot of what has to do with this sort of feeding this good wolf is have to do with the natural world for me and being in touch with that very closely, and things that are important to me and my work are tend to very much revolve around that, and not so much um, the negative aspects of it,

but the positive aspects of it. UM. And I think that we're surrounded by both today and more and more we're understanding the the huge effects of the negative aspects of what's happening to our our natural world in a larger sense that the planet, in our environment in general, and what we're doing to as as societies and as

humans and um. But for me, the focus from the beginning with my work with great Lake Swimmers, and my writing has always been to really focus on the sort of the beautiful aspects of it and the positive aspects of it, and to not take on such a sort of a doomsday approach to it, which I also appreciate

and respect and I think is necessary. But I think that really focusing on the beautiful parts, the stuff that we already have in the stuff that we can preserve, um, and how we can make things better for our future generations is sort of something that I've tried to focus on excellent and that that connection to nature obviously really comes through in your music. When did you first discover that? I think I read somewhere that you grew up on a farm. When did you first sort of notice that

nature did something for you that was really positive? Well, I think that being raised in a really rural community, of farming community, growing up a small town on the north part of Lake Erie Um in Ontario, being around farmers, for example, UM, growing up, you come to realize very quickly that a lot really depends on things like weather systems in the environment, and UM you have to pay very close attention to these kinds of things, what's happening in the natural world um in order to kind of

see see in order to see it produced kind of you know, um over the years. And I think as a young kid that that really that was really embedded in me, that I really came to terms with having a certain amount of respect for it and also realizing the sort of the power of it and and that

ultimately where at its mercy. And I think that in a farming community you see that a lot more UM directly, so that that that's something that's been with me for since quite a young age, the impact in the sort of connection with nature because it's sort of inescapable, and that in that case, right because like you said, you

are so dependent upon it. Another thing that comes up in your work a lot is that you talk about sort of a kind of spirituality in nature UM and the spirituality in the places that you've chosen to record. And I was curious what that word spirituality means to you. I think it means a lot of different things to people, but I'd be really interested in in what it means

to you. It all ties into like a sense of kind of reflection, it's sent It ties into like a sense of a higher power potentially, or a greater power than yourself. UM. To me, that's that's what it kind of means. It's a way to get to kind of like connect with something greater than yourself. I think that's what I mean when I when I talk about spirituality and in the natural world and as far as the environments, UM,

there's this kind of there's a sense. UM why we've chosen to mostly do location recordings over the last decade of recording music UM is to kind of tap into that sense of atmosphere and to tap into some of that energy that I feel that really charges up some

some rooms that are special. And by special rooms, I mean, UM, there are certain rooms, they're certain buildings that are given importance in various different ways in our society and and uh and it includes UM churches in particular that I found that UM, they really draw out a certain kind of performance in in in me as a musician as a singer, and also with the musicians and people that

I work with UM to make these records. So that's been a really important thing too, is to sort of draw on some of that draw on some of that sort of unique energy that that I feel it is there in special buildings like that I know that the most recent Great Lake Swimmers record was recorded um in the studio. How about your most recent record, your solo

Where did you record that one? The solo record was recorded in um, a sort of historic church on the St. Lawrence River in the Thousand Islands region, which is mostly where we recorded are two thousand and nine album Last Channels UM. But I we had done a few sessions

in the church. They're called St. Brendan's St. Brennan Navigator, Uh, And it's on a pretty unique sort of rock cliff overlooking the St. Lawrence River, and it's it's been there for um since I think the late if I'm not mistaken, UM sometimes around that time anyway, And so I had always had this place in mind in the back of my mind. I could really like to go back there. I had a really positive recording session, they're really great

UM session and always wanted to go back. And so when I had this group of songs for this, this most recent solo album, I went back there. So that was a It's a town called RockBoard, Ontario. Well, I love the I love the new record. It it is your your solo record is really is really uh enjoyable. Um, I want to ask you a couple of questions about

some of the songs that are on there. I know musicians and writers hate to be asked what a song means, so I'm gonna try and stay away from that, But there are things in them that I think are are relevant to kind of what we're talking about. The one is in final song has lost It's great, want to thank me? Good to think? Don't you think? But don't you think? It's clearly you're pondering death and sort of your legacy afterwards. And I'm curious if that's been on

your mind lately. Is that a theme that you sort of think about often, sort of pondering that and and how it maybe how it influences the actions we take today. Well, yeah, I think I think that it is something that I think about quite a bit almost every day. Um. But again, it's not necessarily meant to be seen as a as a dark or Macob kind of thing. I think that it's a yeah, I don't know, I kind of just

needed to write a song like that. I agree with you about the reflection on death not necessarily being a a dark or depressive activity. A lot of a lot of Buddhist meditation will will focus around that idea, which is by if you recognize that you're going to die, it makes you more aware of what you have and more cognizant of the actions you've taken and the thought you put into your life. You're a big Leonard Cohen fan. I think as a as a Canadian, you you guys

share that in the background. What what about Leonard Cohen's work is really special and important to you? Well, I just I think that, you know, as a songwriter, he

really sets the bar. You know, There's there's a number of songwriters that I sort of looked to and I say, that's the high water mark, you know, and that's that, you know, that's one of the people that I think really um are within the economy of writing a song or are able to really express something that um transcends the medium and the form and goes beyond you know, singing and songwriting and poetry even um and becomes something

even deeper than that. And you know, and speaking about spirituality, I mean and and become something um spiritual in a way. I've been listening to Leonard Cohen now for since my teens and so that's been close to twenty years. Um, I just kind of see him as as a as a sort of a spiritual leader or a priest almost a song One of the things about Leonard Cohen that he's known for is writing, you know, fifty verses to

get five. Is your process anything like that? Do you spend a lot of time working over your verses are very for lack of a better word, there's a lot of poetry in them. Do you spend a lot of time trying to get those words just right in the same way? Yeah, I think so. I'm really happy when I can come up with a lyric that fits well into a song. And because it's not always the case, because I think that poetry and songs are different things,

and I think that they don't always translate. Um. And there are times when I think I have a great piece of writing, but it just doesn't really work as a song, and so then I either have to abandon it or or modify it and work with it in shape. It's more to bring it into a form that um will be effective. I think in in song and with melody and the other you know, the other works the

other way too. You know, something sound great when their sung and they're meaningful and um and they express an emotion or they express something I've abstract or an emotional feeling or almost like a stream of conscious consciousness or a collage of words, and then but they don't scan well as a poem, you know, So I guess I'm I'm looking for the place where those kinds of things overlap. Do you write poetry on its own? Do you have any any plans to publish anything like that? Are you

pretty much strictly a songwriter? Oh, I don't have any plans to really publish anything like that. I do write poetry as much as I write songs. But I I mean, I really feel that where I'm at this is is writting performing songs. And you, guys, I think I heard you say that the Great Lake Swimmers are already at work on the next record. Yeah. You know, some some people have said to me about, you know, doing the solo record, that kind of signals something like maybe you know,

some sort of discord or discontent within the band. But we've we've already started doing some sessions and we're working on a new record right now. So all's well with the band. We're well into are you back in the studio or do you have a special place. UM. We've done a few sessions in reproduction. I'm still kind of trying to decide on how it's all going to unfold. I'd really like to go back to a special location UM, because I feel that it sounds kind of like backwards.

But after doing four records worth of location recording, so to speak, in different kinds of buildings and scenarios, UM, going into the studio is a bit of an experiment for us or and for me after after many years of not recording in the studio, and and so for me, you know, it's it's kind of made, it's reinforced the idea that there is something special that comes out of special location recordings, and whether it's whether it's acoustics and

and something that's sonically a little bit different than what you can get in the studio, which is a big part of it UM. And you know, there's nothing that really can replace that sort of natural reverb UM. And also getting something out of out of the room itself as a as a place, as a kind of as an entity into itself as almost another instrument um and uh and force you know, in with in the process. So I'm I've got a few things in mind that I'd like to maybe try out for the next one.

Into to a lot of your music, it sounds like you're sitting in a forest when it's being written, or or a lot of different places. Where do you write Usually, Well, I try to get out as much as I can, and and you know, get out and be close to nature, be in the woods, and and and be away from cities. Um and uh, that's what I feel I really draw upon when I when I sit down to write. Um, I've got a little apartment in Toronto. Um and uh

it's really near a big park here. Um And I mean I tend not to be able to write on the road so much, I you know, unless I'm taking a trip specifically for writing. But um, you know that's it's it's those kinds of trips into into more remote areas that I think leads the deepest impact on me. And it's what I drop up on when I sit down to write, regardless of where that is. Speaking of remote areas, you went on an educational tour or trip to Antarctica. Can you share a little bit about that.

I'm I'm fascinated by going to Antarctica at all. Yeah, m that was a really unique opportunity that came up. UM and there's an organization called Students on Ice UM and it's a Canadian based organization and they do trips with about fifty students from around North America primarily, but around the world. But they have lectures and I'm talking about, like, you know, really a full spectrum of of what you might find in a curriculum, almost that there would be

for example of a marine biologist or an environmental scientists. UM. They had an arts component which had visual artists and writers and and they had asked me to come along to do a music component, and so I went along and UM, I think that I learned as much as I was able to teach you about UM songwriting and some a little bit of storytelling and song and sharing my creative process and basically being open to a group of students who wanted to who had any interest in UM,

you know, a creative process. And by the end of it was was working on songs with with some of the kids there. So that was really important for a number of reasons. There was that aspect of it and UM which I think is fantastic for some of our future leaders. What's it like in Antarctica? Where do you where do you stay? Is there community? Is it all one building? I don't really I don't understand what what

it's like there. UM Well, basically there is. There was a a repurposed and and sort of modified research vessel. UM ship was is where everyone stayed. There's cabins on the ship UM and that was home base. UM. Not one of those big, big cruise ships that you would imagine, but quite a small a thing. Is considered quite a small vessel, research vessel. Pop. It doesn't technically belong to anyone UM. People there have there. There are a number

of different countries that have interest there. But there was it was. I think there's a moratorium that's still in place on on you know, uh ownership and exploitation of it as a continent special place. But as far as how it's set up, there are a few there are outposts there, but there they're very remote. UM research stations. An Arctica sounds like a great place for the next record. Have you considered that? I think that might be the final straw with your engineer if you tried to go

to Antarctica. Absolutely, they have a hard enough time with church falls in the lake. So I'm going to uh to break the card the rule of asking you what something means. I'm gonna read you a lyric from the new album, and I'm just really curious because it's it's very um. I really like it, and it says it's from the empty Arms song. It says a loner landed and made new land, empty arms starting over again, held new words over old thundering ways, and empty arms starting

on thundering ways and clears five. Listen, it's really that last sentence held new words over old thundering ways. Is that anymore that you could tell us about that? Well, it's interesting that he kicked that one because it kind of ties into a little bit of what we were talking about earlier. I get really excited when when home, one of people writing that I've written separately without coming up with any sort of melody or or rhythm or structure for fits really well into a piece of music.

And and that was one where I didn't have to change very much in order for it to just kind of um drop in. It worked well both as a poem, worked really well both as a poem and a song, and I really spent a lot of time trying to distill that language and and really sort of make it as concise as I could. And this is something I strive for with all of my songs. But I think that the more you sort of break them down and try to pull them apart, the more rewarding that they

sort of become. And I think that as you do that, you start to find connections within it that start to tell the story and and what I hope is an interesting way. Yeah, and I liked sort of back to the to the wolf theme and feeding the good Wolf the held new words over all thundering ways sort of felt to me like that feeding the good Wolf potentially with with these new words in this new this new life versus the old thundering ways, which at least I

was interpreting for myself as old habits, old ways of thinking. Yeah, I think that's a that's a fair reading for sure. Do you have anything else on the on the theme of the show that you would like us to talk about that we haven't discussed. I think one of the great ways that you can can feed the good wolf, you know, like, as we started talking about is is that I found that I've been thinking about it a lot lately, is trying to maintain this childlike sense of wonder.

And we know there's a big difference between being childish and being childlike, but I think trying to kind of maintain that one part of yourself that is always kind of curious and and uh and as childlike and comes out the world in a childlike way, um, it really

allows you to embrace it in a different way. And especially when it comes to the natural world, that I feel that for myself, I'm I'm endlessly curious and endlessly fascinated by things that I come into contact with in the natural world, whether it's the way that like a leaf works or the way that you know, the wolf a wolf pack will build a network of pathways through through the underbrush of a forest, you know. And and I think that there's something that we can all learn

from that. And I think things like caring for animals or even just caring for plants is a step closer to caring for each other and caring for people. On the song UM off the new record, A Prayer for the Woods, I know that you you found that as a sign at a park. Was the whole poem there or did you end up writing additional parts for it? No, that's the whole poem. I adapted certain parts of it and change the language a little bit just because some

of it was kind of outdated language. But um, I wanted to really preserve the the sort of the entirety of it. But on which you La and Tim that so superassed by listen to my prayer. What I really like about it and the way you interpret it is really beautiful. I like the way it sort of brings home the value that those forests have in to all the objects that are are that are in our lives, which I thought was a very poignant way to sort of connect ourselves to the forest. I think so too,

and and and and it's it's very simple language. It is almost like a terrible and it does have that a sense of childlike kind of wonder to it. Yep. Well, I think we're kind of at the end of our time here, So Tony, I want to thank you very much for for joining us. It's been a pleasure talking with you. As I said earlier, I really love your music and looking forward to hearing the new Great Lake Swimmers record um My Pleasure, Thanks for thanks for having me. Yeah,

you're welcome, Take care, tell you too, Bye bye. You can find out more about Tony Decker and this podcast and our show notes at one you feed dot net slash Tony