We really suffer when we think we're the only ones. But we find a lot of healing and freedom and community and in seeing ourselves in the experiences of others.
Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guests on this episode are Brandy Lust and Ginny Gay. Brandy is the founder of Learning Lab Consulting and the author of Myths of Being Human, Four Paths to Connect with What Matters. She's also co
host of the Something to Normalize podcast. Jinny Gay is a certified mindfulness teacher through the Mindfulness Training Institute and is the other co host of the Something to Normalize podcast. Today, Eric, Brandy, and Jenny discussed the topics, personal experiences, and the upcoming season two of Something to Normalize.
Ginny, Brandy, Welcome to the show.
Hello, it's so nice to be here, Eric, Jenny, Hello.
Brandy, Hello, Eric Kello. Listeners. Yeah, it's so nice to be three of us here together.
Yeah. You know Ginny obviously, or probably because she's been on a bunch of episodes. You might know Brandy because we released their podcast, Something to Normalize in our feed earlier this spring, and Brandy was also a guest on the show. Previously, I interviewed her at some strange Columbus podcast event.
That was really funny. Actually, I think we interviewed to an audience of five.
Maybe.
Yeah, it was a low turnout, that's for sure. Anyway, it was fun and so I'm happy to talk with both of you again, and we're going to be talking about your podcast, Something to Normalize, but more specifically some of the topics that you cover there and your friendship which really sort of underpins the podcast, which is really interesting because I hadn't put two and two together yet.
But my friendship with Chris was the foundation of this podcast, Like I started it because I wanted to be with him more, and so it's interesting that yours has that same element to it. But we'll start like we always do, with the parable and the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle.
One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed.
So I'd like to start off by asking you, first, Brandy, and maybe Genio pipe in after that, what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.
One of the things that I thought about reflecting upon this parable before our conversation today is the discernment that it takes to know what the good wolf is for us moment to moment, and that that's not always completely clear. And one of the most supportive ways that I've found to do that discernment is through friendship and through the support networks that hold me up when I am feeling really fuzzy inside. And there's a lot of great research
that supports us. I think about therapeutic relationships, the concept of unconditional positive regard, and how that unconditional positive regard is actually a therapeutic intervention in and of itself. That is what makes the therapy effective. And I think we can do that for one another. We can create those positive corrective experiences that help us to see through our trauma and our patterns to really know what's right for us. And so I thought about that just that, you know,
knowing the good wolf isn't just about our individuality. It's about who we surround ourselves with and how they're able to support us in that process.
Yeah.
I love that. I mean I often say, you know, discernment happens in community. Yeah, right, that's how it happens because we get lost inside ourselves and point about not knowing the good wolf and bad wolf. I had a conversation recently with the artist Maclamore about addiction and recovery, and he said something really interesting because he was talking about how, you know, when we get to full blown addiction. For those of us that are addicts, our bad wolf
is obvious and total monster. Yeah, But the slide from I'm in a good place with recovery to that place is this slide down, and you don't necessarily see it along the way because it's subtle and one little behavior like well, you know, maybe I didn't quite fully tell the truth. There no big deal, right, And so I think you're right that we do need help, yeah, from others in seeing you know, am I feeding my good wolf? Am I acting in integrity that sort of thing?
Yes? I think in those supportive relationships. One of the things that it provides to us is a way for use the word integrity, which I love that word, but I love it less in the context of morals and more in the context of wholeness. Yes, And so what does it mean to act out of my own wholeness in this moment? And one of the ways that we are able to discern that is in relationships where we feel safe, we can begin to find our truth and
our voice. And when we feel safe expressing our voice in those relationship that are really supportive that we grow our ability to do that in other situations and even those that feel unsafe to us, which I think is important.
I will say too. I mean, I think that our friendships can be such touchstones to parts of ourselves that we at least I can speak from my experience that I can lose sight of or lose access to and
really difficult moments. I mean, I know, Brandy, one of the things I've so appreciated about our friendship is the way that you when you listen to me, like when you respond, you ask me questions to reflect on that point me back towards the highest best version of myself that I've expressed to you that I really want to live into, and you help me reorient to those places in the way you ask questions and the way you reflect things back to me. And you also do this
in a way that doesn't have agenda. It seems to just be a genuine curiosity coming from a place of like knowing where I want to be headed in this unconditional positive regard and the power of that. I am just continually struck by that. Yet it helps us be in a place of this really wise discernment that otherwise yeah, I can lose access to inside myself. I can get kind of, like Eric says, lost lost inside myself. So it's a jewel in this like crown of life that is front and center for both of us.
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's been really beautiful to watch your guys friendship blossom. And I think it's really hopeful because you guys are I mean, you're you're not spring chickens.
Okay, all right, okay.
You're firmly in your adult years. I just put it that way.
Sure, And it is harder and harder bring chickens to make deep, really good friendships, right, it's more of a challenge, right, And so but I find that you guys have done that, and that it's been so deep and wonderful, and you guys both so appreciated.
It's a really hopeful story for people who feel like, hey, I don't have enough friends, or I wish I had different friends or more friends.
Yeah, And I think it's important to have those stories of hope because we are in a time in history where friendship is first of all, it's understudied in comparison to other types of relationships, which shows that we don't value it in the same way that we value romantic partnerships or we value families. And at the same time, when folks are doing research on what people need, universally we are experiencing more loneliness than we've ever experienced before.
I think the amount of people who have said that they have more than like a couple of supportive friendships has decreased over the last ten years, and universally, in that same population, people want more friends. And so I think that this is something that folks are seeking and one of their since that we are unable to have it is because we don't put that value on those
types of relationships. We don't see them as primary. And I know for me, and I've talked Genny's ear off about this, for me, friendships are primary relationships totally.
Yeah.
Yeah, And I think for me too, like as you pointed out, Eric, that at our age, we can still find friendships. It's interesting because you know, the friends that I have really connected with at different stages in my life,
there's value in that friendship. Like the friends that I've made when I was very young, for example, with whom I'm still very good friends have this incredible value of having experienced and witnessed you know, the arc of life together thus far, and that is incredibly precious, right, And you know, with Brandy, having met and connected with her at this stage of my life, when I feel, you know, in my forties, I feel more aware of who I am at a deeper level, having more clarity of what's
important to me, what my values are, what I'm looking for like in a friendship. Having now been able to connect with you, Brandy in this place in my life, this friendship feels so deeply rich and edifying and enjoyable in a way that is really unique. Yeah, And so yeah, I think not only is it possible to meet people that like will become the most important people in your life, you may not have even met them yet, which is
really a hopeful and exciting kind of thing. So yeah, it's possible, and there's just such a unique preciousness to meeting friends at different stages in life.
Yeah.
I'm just thinking about one of the things that I've read about friendship is that we have this real dichotomy between romantic relationships and friendships, And so much of what you said also reminds me of how people talk about, Well, I met my partner when I was a teenager versus I met my partner when I was forty, and the benefits of all of those things, and there are more from the reading that I've done, there are more similarities than differences when it comes to like friendships and what
they bring to our lives especially, And one more thing that I just want to say about this to talk about, like, you know, the benefit of having these different types of relationships in our lives. I'm sure you've both seen Esther Perel's talk her ted x talk about romantic relationships and the pressure that we put on our romantic relationships to really be not only primary, but to cover like so
many different basis for us. You know, if we are in a relationship with someone, we might also be co parenting with them, We're sharing financial responsibilities, we might be
sharing elder care, like all of these things. And like, I think one of the things that friendship provides is this sense of like role, clarity and a real purpose because the role of the relationship is to meet one another's emotional needs moment to moment, and so there aren't all of these competing priorities that we're trying to balance
at the same time. And I think that's why they're really ripe for that unconditional positive regard and for that discernment partnership, because it's the purpose of friendship, Like that's the only purpose of friendship, and it for me has just made it. I mean, it's the light of my life, like Ginny will tell you. In addition to Ginny, I
have three other very close friends. She knows who they are, she knows their life histories and their names, and when I'm checking in with her, I'm calling them into being. And I think that that support network. I imagine it almost like you know, there's this net, and each one of these support people are like this point of light. And when I am going through a hard time, I feel that I'm not alone, Like that's what anchors me
into my space. And I feel the support of Ginny when she's not there, I feel the support of my friends. Autumn is another person, and Harmony and Amy and these are just people in my life who, like I can't do life without that and do it well.
It feels like such an honor to be your friend, I mean really, because I agree, I feel your support when you're not even there. And I think one of the reasons that we connect on such a deep level. Is that we met in a context that at least in an environment and in a context where things that were talked about were things that were deeply important to us, right, Yeah.
Yeah, I was going to ask a little bit about the formation of your friendship. I'll let you guys tell a story.
Well, yeah, I mean, so it's interesting because you guys, Brandy and Eric are actually friends for a long time and friends before Brandy and I were friends, So you guys had that connection. So Eric, you introduced me to Brandy. We met actually at a like a breakfast that the three of us went to, but then there was a while that before we saw each other the next time, and the point I really consider being like the beginning
of our friendship. Brandy was at this meeting that you know, you're the host of our local chapter of Creative Mornings, and we met again at a meeting where Eric was speaking. I think was it that one or was it the one before? Anyway, what I remember is you and I just kind of looking at each other and going like we need to get together, Like you're someone that I want to know, Like I just have a sense that I want to know you better and I remember feeling
so intimidated by you. I felt like you were this person that was such a doer and like, you know, somebody that really was like doing really important things in this community through Creative Mornings, and I just was like, oh my gosh, I don't know if I'm like even good enough to be friends with you. Like I was so intimidated, but yet I knew you were somebody that
I wanted to know better. And so I'll pause there for a second and just say that, like Creative Mornings is this incredible community that Brandy has really helped cultivate, and things that are discussed there are and Brandy, maybe you should explain what it really is. But this is what I mean by like, we connected on a deeper level. We connected in a place where people gather that are all I guess rallying behind and around and interested in kind of this same topic, which is and I'll let
you explain that. Yeah.
Absolutely, So what we say is that we bring together open minded humans to experience authentic connection and ignite a sense of community. And when we have a speaker like Eric who spoke about the connection between spirituality and creativity, we have a conversation about that as a community where we encourage people to meet in small groups and really dive into that topic and connect with the speaker on
a deeper level. Like I remember when Eric spoke, Actually Dante wood Spikes, who is a local Columbus sort of locally famous. I guess you could say, like stood up and told Eric basically how much he meant to him, since they did a ted X talk together, and it was a super intimate moment that we all witnessed together. And I remember that as just being like, Wow, that's what this is about. This is about like us having
that authentic communal experience of connection. And Jinny, I just want to say you have shared with me that you felt that way, and that was never a thought in
my mind. And I just remember like you are such a bright, like effervescent, warm presence and I felt really magnetized toward you, and I just wanted to spend time with you, and we ended up sort of planning it a date and we went on a walk by this river that we were both able to drive to, and I think we walked for a couple of hours and we covered everything from spiritual teachers to psychedelic experiences to like what is enlightenment to what do you do in
a dark night of the soul? I mean, like the most intense things, like I was going through something in that moment, and you met me where I was just like right where I was, which I think we even talked about this. I was scared I was going to have what Brene Brown calls like a vulnerability hangover, which I didn't have that, and I think we talked about that.
But one of the things that I thought might be interesting for us to discuss that folks who have listened to the show may not be aware of, is that we wanted to partner together in a more real way almost immediately. And I was in this professional transition where I actually thought I was going to leave my business behind, and I had this lead someone had just reached out
to me. And at the very end of our conversation, you had just gotten your mindfulness teacher credential, and these folks were reaching out for like emotion regulation in schools, And I was like, Hey, I have this lead. Would you be interested in me just passing this on to you and then maybe you could sort of share with folks like what this lead ended up being.
Yeah, I mean, So it was essentially a person in a school district who was looking for a consultant to come on and throughout the year once a month delivered some training around this idea that Brandy just mentioned around you know, kind of social emotional learning, but emotional support and regulation for teachers. And I was so excited by the idea at first because I have a background in education,
That's what was my major in college. And I've been a teacher in a professional setting too, with adults in corporate America, and so I was like, you know, this is just such a great intersection of like, you know, my experience and expertise in education meets my experience and expertise in the emotional world and dealing with thoughts and
feelings and emotional regulation. So it's really excited. So I took a call with this woman and learned a bit more about it and realized that it actually was larger in quite an open scale large, like you know, even that just the financial piece was like with.
Twenty thousand dollars at least at about eighty dollars.
Yeah, So I report back to Brandy. I'm like, so here's the skinny, Like, here's the deal. Here's the rundown, And how did that land on you?
I mean, it was shocking. There was so much grief, There was so much surprise. There was because I felt like I was leaving all of this behind and like also wanting to be like generous and spirit toward you and what was happening for you and this person that I had met for such a short time. I now felt like I was passing the torch for this work that I had been doing for you know, almost a decade. And so what ended up happening is that you and
I had very intense discernment conversations around this opportunity. We discussed working together, We discussed you taking on the opportunity and me supporting you in the background, and we discussed you not taking the opportunity and me not taking the opportunity at all because the client was just ready to move. And what I remember about that time is how we, with such a new budding friendship, were able to hold the tension of all of those things together between the
two of us. And I knew after that experience that you and I could do anything together.
It's so true. I love it. But you're right, because you and I both brought a degree of honesty, and I think we really intentionally brought this degree of honesty to one another around like, here's what's going on inside me about this, yeah, and here's where it feels exciting, Here's what it feels like you said, grief, or here's where I'm like, I feel intimidated or scared or unsure, And here's different options of how this could play out.
And you're right. We sort of sat in the tension and then in discernment and in honesty and connection and conversation, and we really worked our way through this and that ended up being a no. It was a past. I passed on it. Yeah, you passed on it, which was hard because it was so much money like that, Let's
be honest. I mean that was hard. But we both, through this discernment process were able to get really clear about what the opportunity was, what it was going to require, and did it align or not with the work in the world that we really wanted to be doing. And that was the powerful experience.
Yeah, it makes me think about you know, the third which is like this also a concept in therapy, but it's like there's me and then there's you, and then there's this thing that we make between us, and we can name it and we can describe it, and we can talk about it. But there's this power and like when people come together and then we create something together. And I think that space that we created for the two of us during that time in such an intense
experience just has served us so well. Yeah, that's the power of friendship in its greatest form, is that we both had to sit with ourselves in our discernment. I remember at one point you were like, I'm going to go meditate for five minutes. I'll call you back. And you know, we both sat in our own discernment, in our own integrity, we shared our truth, we were both able to hold that truth for one another, and I think something just really beautiful came out of that.
Yeah.
I'd love to hear from you, Eric, like what has friendship represented in your life? Like as you're hearing these and maybe not even related to this experience that we're having together, but you know, you talked about Chris and how that's been the beginning of your show, and I know of some other close friends you have and how they've been supportive for you, Like, how does that show up in your life.
Yeah, I think friendship has always been really really important to me. I was reflecting to Ginny this morning. I was doing a little bit of journaling about childhood events, and I realized that, like two things that I haven't ever really thought about or processed, but like twice in my first eight years, my best friends like moved away. I mean when I say like best friend, they were like the center of my world in so many ways, particularly given what was happening at home with me. So
friendship has always been very central to me. And so I've been lucky to have friends like Chris since I was eighteen, and my friend Steve since I was like fourteen, and my friend Joe since I was eighteen, and then I've had friends that I met through AA. I mean there were a lot of really strong friendships there. I think there is something, and it's similar to what you guys are describing when our friendship is around common values
or interests or alignments versus just convenience. And what I mean by convenience, I don't mean that in a negative way. I just mean it's like, well, they're your friend because they live two doors down, or they're your friend because they ended up in your college dorm, or they're your friend because they were in a classroom with you. Right Whereas when we meet, Jinny and I met connecting over this kind of work, that was the beginning of our relationship, right,
it was grounded in that. And so and I've always found there's a lot of data out there about how long it takes to make a friend, is how much time it takes to build a good friendship as an adult, and it's a long time. But what's interesting is I don't agree with all that data because I think it misses friendships that are formed in a particular way, and friendships that are formed around right away, deep connection around things that matter, and as you guys described, a vulnerability
and an openness, those friendships can happen relatively quickly. In comparison, I think the studies I've seen in something like one hundred hours. Right, my experience is with the right person and the right type of vulnerability, and then that process can be very accelerated. Now, I'm not suggesting that you walk into your volunteer activity next week and suddenly discuss childhood trauma, right Like, there's a time and a place
for all those things. But that's been my experience, and so a lot of my friendships formed out of my recovery from alcoholism, right, And that's a pretty vulnerable place, like twelve step programs are vulnerable places. You know, my other best friend today, Bayla, he's been on the show, Like when I came back after drinking again. He was my sponsor for a couple of years, and then it just became just friendship after that. And so I do think that friendship has been really important to me, and
I agree with you. I think we need more than simply one relationship in our lives.
Yeah, and I think too. The reason to talk about all of this is my fear is that people might listen and be like, you know, if they don't have the kinds of friendships right that we're talking about, that they might think that, you know, as Branding and I talk about our friendship, it's like, look how great friendship is. And that's not the spirit in which we bring this.
We bring this to share it as could it inspire you to think about what kinds of friendships you do want in your life and to begin thinking about places that you might meet them or connect with them over things that matter. To you deeply, right, because I think that could be an instructive sort of path to follow to cultivate this kind of thing in your life.
I think it's worth mentioning too, when Brandy was talking about creative mornings, that is not only a Columbus yeah right. There are creative mornings in lots of towns, but there
are things like creative mornings in lots of places. And I do think the thing about community, like, if you guys had met through creative mornings alone, it may have taken a while for that friendship to evolve, whereas I think it got fast tracked a little bit just because you guys were able to interact kind of one on one.
And I think that's important as we talk about friendship to think about when we show up to a new community, it can take a long time, at least in my case, for that to transform into deeper friendships because I'm shy and it's hard for me to show up and talk, and it takes me a while to sort of even feel like I can come out of my shell. I know I'm in the right place kind of, but I
still don't feel connected. So my desire is to not show back up because I'm like, well, I'm not feeling the connection everybody says I should feel at this thing, and I'm not feeling it. And my experience is I got to hang in.
And take the risk to kind of push yourself out and to like just approach somebody or something.
And thanks for normalizing that, Eric, that process that it's not easy for everyone to show up and consistently show up and stand in that space of trepidation, like am I going to make a friend or not make a friend? And Yeah, honestly, I think it's a lot harder for men than it is for women. I think culturally there's a lot that potentially could stand between showing up and being more vulnerable. Does that lands for you in your experience.
Yeah, I think a little bit. I mean I feel like, on my side, I'm pretty quick to be vulnerable and open. And I'm not saying I don't have those cultural stereotypes weigh on me. Of course I do, but I haven't noticed it in a lot of male friendships that it is. I was just having this conversation with a friend yesterday.
We were at breakfast, and he was describing how he moved from Clintonville, where he sort of felt connected out to sort of the outskirts of Dublin for a variety of very good reasons, and that he's having a hard time making friends out there. And the reason is he's like the other people that I meet, the only thing they seem interested in is like house projects and youth sports. Yeah,
and I was describing I was in Upper Arlington. Those of you who don't know what we're talking about, we're talking about suburbs of Columbus and somewhat wealthy suburbs of Columbus. And I spent time in Upper Arlington for a lot of years, going to a lot of youth sporting events, and I was around a lot of parents, and I didn't make a single friend. And again I'm not saying anything wrong about the people there, but we would talk.
All I could ever get was we want to talk about youth sports or sports or work.
Yeah.
I just kept bumping into that, and then a little bit of that you start to go, well, I'm not even going to bother like I don't want to really try. I mean, it's one of the reasons through the spiritual habits programs and meetups and different things we've done that, Like I so want to build. I know it's not an in person community, but a community among the listeners so they can support each other, because that is a hard thing to find.
Yeah, Ginny and I have spoken about the same thing with something to normalize, and just one of the things that I hope that the show can do is to welcome people into our friendship. We had some feedback from someone who listened who said they felt like a fly on the wall, like witnessing, like an intimate conversation between best friends. And I get that with the best podcasts that I listened to. I mean, Eric, before I met you, I had listened to your show and I felt like
I knew more about you. I'm collaborating with Maggie Smith for her event Creative Partings tomorrow, and I'd listened to her interviews with you and with Glennon Doyle, and it's like, you know people in that space at least, and it does create a sense of connection. And I think it's so important because, like when you were describing what it was like to be a parent, I felt that too.
I was never able to make friends with the other parents who are in the school and I have My kids are ten years apart, it hasn't worked either time, you know, and so like, I relate to that, and I think so many people do. And I think part of the reason is because when people take on these other roles like I'm a parent, I feel like that's a really big one. That's the one I'm landing on right now. That especially it zap's a lot of the emotional bandwidth that people feel they have to share with
others in relationships. And so I just feel like, as we're having this conversation, like so many people are going to be able to relate to that feeling. And I hope even just thinking about non traditional ways of seeking connection and community can feel really supportive for people.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's an endeavor that is hard, it is absolutely worth doing. And again, sort of as I said that, seeing the two of you is a very hopeful story about like, hey, you know, something really beautiful can blossom, and when it does, it's really worth it. And it doesn't even have to blossom to the degree that yours
has for it to add value to your life. Like, you know, I think every little bit of connection matters, and sometimes we get it in really big doses from like a person, but sometimes we get it from lots of little connections, you know, multiple little things that slowly add up. I mean it can be both ways.
Yeah, And I just wanted to touch back on what Brandy said about like this fly on a wall kind of experience and like having a sense of being in this friendship. I will say that in my experience, we can see ourselves and other people, even if it's a podcast conversation you're listening to, right, Like, you can see part of your humanity show up through the stories of
other people and the lives that they've lived. And I think one of the things that drives Brady and I to share all that we share on something to normalize is you know that we've been through some really difficult things individually, but also we've been able to support one another through some difficult things just in the time of our friendship and having these conversations and sharing those stories and sharing our pain and then sharing the wisdom we've
gained through you know, the work we've done or the research we've done. It's a way that we can alchemize things that have been painful and difficult into things something that's beautiful. Right, These conversations that we share the way that we can name things in a space of vulnerability and honesty and in so doing normalize them, and we can have connection through these conversations. We can resolve some shame through these conversations and sharing them. I mean, these
are all beautiful things, you know. I think that's one of the highest hopes we have in what it is we bring to listeners in that way.
So I'd love to.
Go into some of the things that you talk about and actually have the three of us talk about them, because you know, certainly the one you feed. We've been trying from day one to discuss things that are hard to discuss and talk about the real shit in life, and I think you guys do it in a beautiful way. And so I kind of wanted to just maybe touch on what a couple of the topics that I know
you guys have had. And first one I wanted to start on is a topic we've had a couple guests on and every time we do, we get a ton of feedback on it, which is highly sensitive people. So I'm assuming that all three of us are and I'm assuming a pretty significant portion of the one you feed audience is I mean, I know at least the cross
section I know is you know, highly sensitive. So I was wondering if you guys could just talk about that a little bit, like your conversation about highly sensitive people. What are some of the big things that kind of came out of that that you think we, you know, would be really valuable for listeners listening right now.
So I came to highly sensitive people as a concept really looking at my relationship with my son Sawyer, and he is a highly sensitive person, and there were these things showing up in his experience that felt a little inexplicable but also really important to him. And so some of the things that were showing up were like textures of clothing. When he picks out clothes, he has to instead of trying them on or looking at what they
look like, he would have to touch them. And I remember us playing scrabble and there was like a crushed velvet bag that he had to pick the pieces out of and he couldn't do it. He's like, I cannot touch that fabric. And he also needs like a lot of time alone and to himself. And so as I had gotten a little familiar with the concept, it was a way for us to have conversations about what he
was experiencing. What it looks like for me as a highly sensitive person, which basically just means a person who is sensitive to sensory input of all kinds and be that external or internal, so oftentimes they have a very live internal world as well as really feeling those physical sensations. I experience it, and this is the stereotype as having
to recover from overwhelm pretty frequently. So if I give a talk, I have to come home and you know, put an eyemask on and like go to the bedroom and sit in the dark for like an hour to kind of recover from that experience. How do you too, experience being a highly sensitive person?
So for me, this particular topic falls under the umbrella of why I feel so passionately about normalizing things because taking you know, the test that you pointed me to, Brandy, and even just in answering the questions, I started to name things about myself that I may not either explicitly seen as real parts of me or put it in the corner as a part of me that was like too much like too sensitive or you know, picking up on too many fine details, like it was just a
part of me that was like maybe something I need to modulate for the rest of the world. But under the umbrella of it being part of this idea of highly sensitive person, it made it not only real, but something I could accept and also appreciate about myself. Not that there was something wrong with me, but that perhaps there was just this really unique part of my experience
of being human. It was just really, I guess, empowering and liberating to have some sort of category for different parts of myself.
Yeah.
I just felt a jolt of sadness hearing you talk about researching it for your son, MM, because I think I'm doing a lot of childhood sort of stuff, abandonment stuff that I did this a lot, like twenty years ago, and I'm just kind of back in it. And I think I was super highly sensitive and I was totally alone.
With ith got Lands. I feel that in my heart, knowing you the way I do, just certain of it. I'm certain you are and it would have been so wonderful to have had someone help you know yourself in that way and care for you and help you learn to care for yourself in that way.
Yep.
And I'm also so inspired by and like in awe of and really honor like the work you're doing now to go back and like hold that child and kind of reparent them in a healing way, like in the way that you are thinking of now, you know.
Yeah, And that's so inspirational for other folks. And I think especially for young boys who are highly sensitive, that's often something they feel like they need to hide from the world because it isn't accepted. But there's such gifts, Eric, I mean, the work that you do in the world comes from your highly sensitive place totally.
I mean I totally get that, and I accept it now. I recognize all that. It's just I'm right now in the midst of, like just this morning, writing about this kind of stuff, and so I'm kind of going deep back into this sort of work again. So it's it's very very present. Yeah, yeah, I totally know, like it's a gift, Like I wouldn't want to be anybody other than who I am to either.
Yeah, I was just going to say, And at the same time, you know, yes, we can be so grateful for who we are today. And I mean, I believe in that inner child work and I've seen it show up in my own experience and I know how powerful it is, like there is that part of ourselves that we sit with and hold them like while they recognize like the hurt that's there, And that's really brave work too, So I just wanted to name that.
Thanks. Yeah, I've been sort of trying not to be discouraged because I felt like I did all this really deeply and really intensely. But as I've often say about the healing journey, it's like a viral staircase, right, Like you keep coming around to the same things. You're just hopefully at a slightly higher level when you come back around. You know, if you imagine a picture on the wall with the spiral staircase. So the way I'm doing that work now is not you know when I did it
twenty years ago. I'm approaching it and able to do it at a much higher level as far as being highly sensitive. I think how it shows up for me. And when you mentioned textures, I thought about my son. My son used to be this way with socks that used to drive me completely nuts, like the seam in the sock, I mean, and it just was maddening. But I also.
Understood what would he do, Like, how would he.
The seam had to be exactly right. I mean, there was only like one kind of sock in the world that would work, and then it would stop working. I remember they were gold semed socks from some particular store. I don't remember where it was, but I just you know, I did it. But when you said it, I hadn't thought. Again, I'm sort of reflecting on myself as a child, and I was like, I couldn't touch sand, I couldn't touch chalk.
There were all these things that I hate the feeling of dirt, like, there were all these things that I still have some of that today.
I didn't know that. Is that something that just kind of recently came back to you or have you known that for a while.
I just thought of it like literally, oh, like just when Brandy was describing her, like I've always thought when I hear the texture thing, I think of my son. But I just was like, oh, yeah, I'm kind of weird with texture too.
So interesting, and you're also really sensitive to sound.
It sound is the biggest one for me.
Me too. We have something in my house called quiet time, which is the hour before bed, and I am just so straightforward about it. I'm like literally get out, just get out of this room if you cannot be quiet, because I get to the point where I'm like, it's that or I'm going to be mean to you, Like those are the two options.
The irritation level for me gets so high, and it's the sort of thing that has been helpful for me to understand, because otherwise I was like, I'm just a jerk. Like the fact that Jenny's chewing and I hear the sound, and I now I hate her and I never want to see her again, Like what is wrong with me?
Like I used to be like that with my mom. I could hear her chewing, I swear from across the room. And it's not like her mouth was open. She was like very polite, so her mouth was closed, but it was as if there was some echo chamber in her mouth as it was closed that was causing it to like reverberate through the room. And I wanted to like run over and strangle her. I was just so mad.
I think there to be we have that with each other, but we can at least ignowl. Yeah, yeah, would you like me to go over to the other side of the room here and chew this exactly?
Like I want to come sit next to you, but would you like me to finish eating for us, because I totally get it if you do. I was thinking for me. One of the ways the sensitivity piece has come up is certainly like a lot of stimuli, you know, at one time, I get really flooded. But also I am really sensitive to other people's energies, like really sensitive.
It's to the point where like sometimes I feel like all my nerve endings are on the outside of my body, you know, and it's picking up not only like you know, sound and sighte and all that, but it's emotional too, and like the surroundings I'm in, the people I'm with, it affects my mood, and I also am like, really I'm almost aware of how well, not almost, I'm often aware of how others are feeling before I'm aware of how I'm feeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Empathy is one of the qualities of a highly sensitive person, and a lot of highly sensitive folks feel drawn towards serving others in some way because I think potentially because they feel the pain of the world so deeply. And that's such a hard line to walk as a highly sensitive person, because you are both going to feel everything everyone is feeling and feel drawn to those people who
are in pain. Oftentimes, something that I started using and my work with people, a teacher that I was working with made the suggestion to me to not do the self care after the experience, but actually to try to self care while it's happening, so that I don't end up getting in those places overwhelmed so quickly. And so I do a lot of diaphragm breathing when I'm in those high intensity situations, and it helps me to connect
back to my own rhythm and sense of safety. If there's someone else who's dysregulated and they're in a lot of anxiety or a lot of physical pain or emotional pain, I can remind myself and that's not me.
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. I do that. So my mindfulness practice has really taught me how to be in my body, like to be embodied, to feel my body from the inside out. When I can do that, like you, Brandy, I can remind myself who I am, where I am, and inhabit that, and it reminds me what I am not, which is you know the other person, right, That's incredible.
Describe diaphragm breathing. Yeah, a lot of people probably know what that means, but just for anybody who doesn't.
Sure, So the way that I always teach folks to do this is put one hand on their chest and another hand on their belly and just breathe naturally. And what most folks will notice when they do that is that the top hand that's on the chest moves a lot more than the bottom hand that's on the belly, And so keeping our hands in those places, then I would instruct folks to try to breathe so that only
the hand on your belly is moving. And so if you literally just use your muscles to push kind of in and out, you can feel that sense of breathing through the diaphragm. And it's such a small thing, but it takes focus to do that, and so you're focusing inwardly as opposed to outwardly. I normally slow my breathing when I'm doing that, and so we're slowing our autonomic nervous system. And it's just been really supportive for me.
Hi, everybody, it's Ginny. You've probably heard me with Eric on some episodes of The One You Feed. I have a question for you. Are you your own worst critic? I mean, when you pay attention to how you talk to yourself, is it just kind of mean? And do you often feel beat down and just heavy inside? If so,
I truly understand the struggle. I used to believe that relating to myself this way was what kept me performing at any acceptable level, and without it, I thought I'd drift off into the deep end and become a failure in pretty much every aspect of my life. But it turns out that's actually one of the inner critics' worst lies that it helps you. I mean maybe short term you get a push and do well, but long term it's corrosive and it actually keeps you from living to
your potential. I've created a free three part video series that teaches you how to get to the other side of the inner critic like I have, and you can grab it today. Just head to onewfeed dot net slash Inner Critic. I'm sharing this with you as not only an inner critic survivor, but also a certified mindfulness teacher, and you can learn to relate to yourself differently, living with an inner lightness and not a sense of being at battle with yourself. Life is so much better when
you're a friend to yourself. I promise, So go to onefeed dot net slash inner Critic for my free mini course see you in the videos.
It's so interesting, this idea of doing some of this self care while you're listening to other people. I'm a certified Interface spiritual director, and so I went through like an eighteen month like master's level course to do this. But there was one thing that really stood out to me, and it was talking about listening, and it was recognizing that like we normally think of listening is like give the other person all your attention, yes, and you've got
to keep some attention inside. I think you guys both shared the story that may have come from you. I don't know about a particular spiritual teaching.
Oh that was at my mindfulness teacher training.
Okay, about like I never give very much of my attention to anyone.
I never give one hundred percent of my attention to anybody. And it was just this idea of you know, how much do you stay where you are in your body and in your experience while also attending to what's happening around.
And it's a real interesting dance. It is in service of yourself, but even in being of service to someone else. The primary way I think of it is that if I'm not paying attention to myself, I'm reacting and I don't know how I'm reacting, and I don't know what's coming up in me, and what's coming up in me is coming out back to your topic of unconditional positive regard.
Right Like, if I'm listening to you and you're saying something that is triggery for me, and I'm not paying attention to that consciously, I'm unconsciously paying attention to it. I'm unconsciously doing it, And so what you may be feeling is, wait, he's shifted. He's not giving me his attention and warmth that he was giving me because now I'm unconsciously off processing something else. And so that ability to keep some of that attention internally is really important
and isn't a selfish thing. It's actually a way of being more loving, more kind, and more present to the people.
And it's a skill to learn and then cultivate and develop and practice like all the time. I mean, I still remind myself when I think of it to do this, because you know, my default is still to put sort of one hundred percent of my attention in someone else.
I know that I'm putting my attention one hundred percent in someone else when they then turn around and like maybe ask me a question, and it's like, not only do I draw a blank, but I just don't even have access to any of my answers because I feel like I've somehow gotten like untethered from the mothership and I'm floating around and out of space, and I'm like, oh, wait a minute, I left my body, I left my experience, and so I'll come back home to like start feeling
my body from the inside out field the chair underneath me, feel the floor, and then I begin to come back online for myself. But I just want to like name that, like this is not something like a one and done.
You know, it is a hard practice because it's easy to go to one extreme or the other. Right, we all know what it's like to not be listening to someone else more or less and be thinking about our response to them or what we think about what they're saying. We all know what that's like. We all know what it's like. Maybe not everyone, but most of us know what It's like when we're completely outside of ourselves and it's being able to do both is really a dance,
and it does take practice, and it's a deep mindfulness practice. Actually, it's a deep meditative practice.
Surely is, Yes, it absolutely is. And you know, as I'm considering those moments when I've gone into myself, when I'm sitting with someone else who is in a place of emotional pain, it is from that place within myself that the wisdom to respond to them, from my own knowing that is going to best meet their needs in
the moment, shows up, you know. And it's interesting because I teach listening, and I just taught this like listening workshop at a training that I was doing, and I think that one of the things that I always share with folks is we don't very often time receive that type of listening, and when we do, it is such a profound experience for so many people. So many things show up in that safe space of this person is seeing me and they're hearing me, and anything that I'm
saying or doing is okay in that safety. All of these things show up for people, and it's really a profound gift to be present and witness that, and it's a profound gift for the person who is being able to share because they get to see a part of themselves that wouldn't have been visible otherwise and left that unless that safe space was created.
Yeah, it makes me sad to hear that, not for me, but for people who that's such a profound experience for that they haven't had that, and that when it does finally arrive, it's that profound. Yeah, I just feel really fortunate, Like I think my journey through addiction and recovery it was like, I mean, I just got to a lot of experience of that, like people hearing me and listening and just a deep regard for each other. And and
it speaks to the loneliness we've talked about. I don't remember statistics well, but it's something like fifty percent of Americans don't feel like they have someone that they could turn to in a moment of deep need. And that's just heartbreaking, heartbreaking, And if you are one of those people, I always feel like talking about loneliness makes me anxious because it reminds me of like people who talk about sleep.
I start calling them the sleep police because they tell you how bad not sleeping is for you, and you're like, well, I'm not sleeping and I'm doing my best to sleep, but I'm not sleeping, and all you're doing is telling me how destructive is to my health. So now I'm three times as anxious about not sleeping as I was before I listen to you, and I sometimes feel like
with loneliness, it's the same thing. I'm like, you know, loneliness is worse than smoking, and I'm like, okay, but that's not helpful, like right, So I think the point is it's the same thing of recognizing like there's always a positive move you can take, as say, step no matter, always a small positive step that we can take in the direction of connection.
Yeah, to reckon back to something you said earlier in this conversation, Eric, you talked about that, you know, we've spoken a lot about deep friendship and how that evolves, Like the friendship between Geny and I are the friendships that you formed in you know, your program for alcohol and addiction, And it's like those are like these high vulnerability, like very deep scenarios where folks really are curating that
listening space. But it is also incredibly important and physically and emotionally helpful to have those micro interactions with strangers, Like I was just reading about that this morning, that you know, if someone is experiencing a sense of loneliness, stopping by the coffee shop and saying how's your day to the person who gives you your coffee, or commenting on the book that someone's reading who's sitting next to you, like, those can be really emotion fulfilling, and they can help
our health as well.
Yeah, we are in the presence of a savant for that, which is this one. I'm serious. There is nobody who I've seen do more consistently do well, which is to make connection with an absolute stranger for like seven minutes or five minutes or three minutes that lights them both up and then it's just gone and over. I mean, I've been in all of it since the first time
when we met in Asheville. The first time, I remember the very next morning we were out shopping and just the way you were interacting with the people in the store, I was just watching in awe, like, oh my.
God, oh my god, I'm so touched.
Like these like and it's so beautiful, Like I know, you get something out of it, but the way it lights other people up too, and I think that we are afraid to do that. You're not, in some way touched to hear thank you, and so you take that chance that most people don't take. Like you said, Brandy, there's a lot of like short moments of connection that are there, but they come from you taking a chance.
And like I've always said, I admire about you that you just look at someone and be like, I really like your.
Hair, well, thank you. I mean I think it comes from I watched my mom do this. She made friends everywhere she went. I mean it was just the way she was. When I watched her. What I saw was her taking a genuine interest in the other person as
they were showing up right there in that moment. So it might just be something that she noticed that they're wearing or this, maybe even just their smile, you know, was just beautiful and like she would just name that in the most sincere present way, and just taking that interest in them and being present with them and having that moment of connection and like like that I learned at her feet. I mean, she was the real master
at them. It also is just I find people very interesting, and so maybe it's just that press and genuine interest and willingness to say something yeah about it. That is the thing that kind of drives me to do that.
But yeah, and you're not locked in yourself. And we've talked a little bit about the danger of like completely leaving yourself, right, But there's a whole lot there's an awful lot of danger that I am familiar with of being encased in yourself. Yeah, right, that is not better, Like you know, that is not better. And it's the way that I tend to default move through the world
is I'm just lost in my brain. I'm going to get coffee and I'm thinking about this, and I'm thinking about that, or we all these days we're on our phone, you know, we just don't make that moment. And we've been talking about friendship and connection. There are studies out there that show you ask somebody, how do you think it would be to talk to a stranger on the
subway on your way home today? And most everybody's like, no, thank you, that's going to be a three out of ten, that's a two out of a ten, not going to do it. And then they send these people out to go do it, and they all come back and consistently report seven eight nine out of ten. So we don't think it's going to be worth doing, we think it's going to be hard, we think it's going to be weird. We don't do it. And I know this goes on
in my mind. But oftentimes, and according to studies, more often than not, something really positive comes out of it. And I see that in you that you just do that it is something I admire and could certainly get better at. And I have my moments of you sure do when I'm not locked inside, and usually when I'm locked inside it's just too much self concern just thinking about me to that.
End, you know, Gratitude is another great way to bring connection to other people, Like even if it's a small thing that someone does for you just as part of their job, but like really recognizing it in a sincere way of thinking them and even saying a little bit about how that helped you. Would you mention you just a bit of the story about the person that took our Spiritual Habits program in an act of kindness.
I love this story. I use it now, but it was inspired by a lesson I do on generosity and one of the things that I do in that lesson is encourage people like do one kind thing for someone else every day. The stories I've gotten back from that are just so amazing. But one stands out, and it was this woman. She had been going to a grocery store, a smaller grocery store for years, and there was a checkout person who was always there, and she always got in her line. And the reason that she got in
her line was because her line was the fastest. And this person that I'm describing is a little bit like me, just sort of locked into their own little world, and they're like, get me in and out of this grocery store as quickly as I can. I'm going to go through the fast person's line. For whatever reason that day, I guess the reason is they were instructed to do something kind. They said, you know, I always get in
your line because you are so efficient. You are so good at getting people in and out of here, and it really means a lot to me.
She said.
This woman that she had not seen smile in years lit up like a Christmas tree. And then this woman said, would you mind telling my manager? So she went over and told her manager, and her manager lit up like, oh my god, that's so great. And the manager was like, you know what, just today we're trying to decide who to give, like the employe the month award two and she gets like one hundred dollars and like, all this came from just one little I really appreciate the way
you check me out quickly. That's the example of this sort of thing.
Because it doesn't take much, just a genuine, sincere kind of present moment yeah, yeah, comment or whatever. Yeah.
I think that that's the power of feeling seen and heard and valued. I love mister Rogers and he talks about neighborhood expressions of care, which is some of what I hear being described, this expression of care that is just the the friendliness, the warmth of we're here, like in this thing together, you know, and there's something about that we're all And this is mister Rogers too. I like you just the way you are. Like I listen to his talk to Congress, and there is that sense
of like just as you are, like right now. And I think that that is the value of friendship because we come from this place of my purpose in being present with you is just to show you how much I care about you. Like over and over, like I just want to show you that. And it is this reciprocal kind of circle. It's this self fulfilling what do they call that, the wheel, the something wheel, flywheel, It's a flywheel because you do that and you give, and you see you receive from the giving, and it just
continues to perpetuate. And so I think we can think about every little interaction, whether it's the conversation with a friendship friend, or whether it's the just hello in the grocery store, as like just operating that flywheel and at some point it's just going to start going. That's my experience. And it's about the opening too. That's what I hear us all talking about. It's about the opening up and just that requires showing, but it also requires seeing.
The spiritual teacher Tara Brock, who I've learned so much from, she will say sometimes when in a room full of strangers, like if she's doing, you know, a workshop or something to kind of break that down within herself so that she can open up, is she will look at another person and think to herself, She'll just say to herself the mantra, we are friends, we are friends, and that helps her access in her heart, this spirit, and it's genuine because it's this we are. We are humans on
this earth together. We are connected in the sense that you know, we're breathing the same air, We're having human experiences that you know may differ in the narrative, but are underneath. I mean, that's one of the quotes that I love that has driven Brandy and I to do the podcast. But like, what is most personal is most universal.
You know, there's a psychologist, Carl Rogers says that, But it's like, if we know deep down we are friends, we have this shared experience of being human, then maybe our hearts can open a little, even if it's just your looking in their eyes and smiling in a genuine way. Like those micro connections really not only do a lot to fuel us and feed us, but they also, like in the story Eric shared, they sometimes can build you're
right on themselves. So it's worth taking that what they call the exquisite risk right to open up.
I'm glad you brought it back to that because we're nearing the end of our time and I did want to say, like, you know, that is part of what you guys are doing on this show is normalizing all these topics we've talked about highly sensitive people. You talk about normalizing grief. You've got a couple of great episodes in this upcoming season around Hope. So in season one, which is available in your feed already, it's got turned
shame into connection. You guys talk about grief. I know there's been a lot of grief in certainly Genuinized Life and Brandy you talk about Hope. Season two is coming out, and the goal really, as we've described, to normalize these things, like we want to make friends but hard you know, all these things that we're talking about is just this chance for you guys to have open, vulnerable conversations that
people can really benefit from. So is there anything you'd like to say about where people can find you or a couple of things you guys want to say about the show as we wrap up?
Well, yeah, sure, I mean, in each episode we take a topic that thus far, it's been a topic that each of us have had some experiences with, and we share our own experiences, we share the wisdom that we've gained from doing the work as we've gone through these experiences, and then we have each done research on our own and we bring that to one another and talk about what we can learn from experts on how to navigate
situations like that we're talking about. And it's all in hopes that being vulnerable and sharing all of this, you know, we can normalize these experience In other words, we can name it, we can acknowledge it as real, we can accept it as just another part of being human, and that it's not evidence that we are wrong or we're doing life wrong.
Right.
We really suffer when we think we're the only ones. But we find a lot of healing and freedom in community and in seeing ourselves in the experiences of others. So our high hope through these conversations is that there can be healing that are sharing and normalizing can be really an antidote to shame or self hatred around things that are hard in our lives and can help people find their footing, you know if need be, and also
maybe find some laughter. You know, we hope to not take ourselves too seriously, right, But any what else would you want to touch on about it?
I think you did a wonderful job summarizing what the show is about, and I just want to name that it's built on this foundation of belonging. And I think that that feeling is a sense that folks can get from our conversations and from being part of our community, through listening to our podcast, through following us on Instagram.
Something to normalize. We have a Patreon community where we're going to be having more in depth conversations and sharing some reas sources on how to apply these concepts, how to apply setting boundaries and situations. For example, we're talking about gaslating this next season and how do you actually do that? And so just really navigating these hard things together.
And just on this final note of belonging, I just wanted to hearken really far back, specifically Eric, to when we began our friendship, which really started with this moment of me someone had recommended that I listened to your show and told me that you were from Columbus, and I reached out and I took that risk, and I said,
would you like to get coffee? And so graciously you decided to do that, and it resulted in eight years of us having these really meaningful conversations and ultimately into this blossoming friendship with Jinny and you know, becoming part of the platform at the one you feed and I could not be more grateful to have both of you in my life and it's been such a source of belonging for me.
So thank you, Thank you, Brandy. We've been thrilled to have you as part all this too, So.
Yeah, it's really exciting. So just to point listeners to, you can now subscribe to something to Normalize in whatever podcast player you listen to, you'll see all of season one already in there, and then season two. We're going to start releasing episodes from season two October fourth, so you can subscribe. You can head to onewfeed dot net slash Normalize, you can sign up for emails. You can also find us on Instagram and all other things from that page. So we hope you'll join us, and we
really look forward to conversations to come. And thank you Eric for having us on the show today to really talk about such meaningful Of.
Course, I love talking with both of you, and your show is so wonderful and so happy that we can be a part of it.
Yeah. Same.
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