The Journey of Life Through Songs with Frank Turner

or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good Wolfe thanks for joining us.

Our guest on this episode is Frank Turner, I guest we interviewed seven years ago and he's back for a second interview. He's an internationally charting, award winning singer and songwriter and author. This episode starts with a discussion with Frank himself, followed by three short interviews with fans of his music, including Eric and I, his friend Joe, eric Son, Jordan's and the One who Feed's own Jenny Gay. Hi, Frank, welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me.

How are you? I am very good. It's great to have you back. I think we had you on about seven years ago and you were kind enough to come on a very unknown show at that time and made me deeply happy. So I thank you for that and I'm happy to have you back. Well, I'm on a to be a repeat guest. You know, we always start this off by reading the parable the Two Wolves and see what you think about it. So I'll read it to you and get your reaction for where you are today.

So there's a grandparent talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there's two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What It's a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second. Looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins, and the grandparents is the one you feed.

So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well. I mean, I think that it's an interesting thing that I'm doing this again because I regually remember us talking about this seven years ago, and I think, looking at my own kind of personal history, my own take on this is going to be I

suspect different to what it was seven years ago. I mean, it may not be different rhetorically, that's the thing that I'm kind of interested in, but it's certainly like my life has changed pretty significantly, pretty dramatically in the last seven years. You know, I settled down a fair bit

in my personal life. I met my wife seven years ago, and I got married three years ago, and I still drink alcohol, but I have given up other substances in my life, and that was a pretty serious effort, and it's one that certainly wasn't done seven years ago, even though I might have claimed as much at the time. So you know, there was a fair amount of wolf feeding going on at the time. I mean, it's a

powerful parable it remains a powerful parable. I like the fact that it doesn't shy away from the fact that those two things exist inside all of us, you know, and always will, and almost to a degree, there's a part of me that thinks that if you just had one and not the other, that that would be sort of weirdly skewed somehow, you know what I mean. I think that there is a degree of balance in there somewhere.

But nevertheless, you know, I do actively attempt to feed the good wolf these days, and probably do a much better job of it than I did seven years ago. Let's say that, yeah, yeah, well, I've had the substances bad all myself, and it's off that way. You make a little bit of progress, you sillie back, You make a little bit of progress, and then hopefully you hit

a point where it's a little more steady. So what I thought we might do for this conversation is we talk a lot on this show about values, about knowing who you are, what matters to you, and the person you want to be. Otherwise you're just buffeted by the culture and conditioning and instinct. And so I thought maybe we'd explore some of your songs through that lens, and the first one I wanted to look at is going

back a while, but it's eulogy. You said about eulogy that you did it to try and write a brief statement of purpose in your book on songwriting, and we said that not everyone grows up to be an astronaut, not everyone was born to be a king. No, everyone can be Freddie Marcuri. Everyone can raise a glass and sing. Well. I haven't always been a loving myself, but I haven't what mother tell a dream. But on the day I tie, I'll say, at Leasta tried, That's the only eul g

I need. That's the only ulgi need. That idea to me of trying, just trying your best feel so fundamental to me in a value sense, and it's always seemed to be in your work. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think one of the things about that for me is that to talk around the houses for a second. I

do that quite a lot. You know, if you kind of read about Mozart, you know who's playing concertos by Timmys three, or indeed you know Bob Dylan who pretty much just kind of dropped out of the sky fully formed as an artist, as far as I can tell, you know, and indeed every day one can hear you know, young musicians, you're an artist, young writers, singers, performers, whatever they might be, who are just so kind of like fully formed from the offer and that's great, you know,

or indeed, you know, you can talk about young athletes who by definition they are doing pretty well by time they're they're recently emerged into into life. I was just never one of those people, Like I could barely sing when I joined a band, I couldn't play. And there was a fair degree of brute force involved in me learning how to do what I do and within that, like one of the people who chimed with me from

an early age was Henry Rollins. Because Henry Rollins talks quite a lot about not being kind of particularly adept at anything when he first sort of emerged into the idea of art in his life, and I sympathize that a lot. And I feel like I've had to kind of like shape who I am and what I do.

I learned how to sing kind of, and I learned how play the guitar kind of, and my songwriting as for other people to charge, you know, and I figured out how to do what I do and just sort of fashion myself into something that I was comfortable with. And it's an ongoing process and it's full of wrong turns and missteps and all the rest of it, but you have to sort of keep the wheel turning somehow,

you know what I mean. And that's where the trying thing comes in for me, is that, like I suppose, I could sort of give up however you want to put it rest on my laurels at any point in my life, but thus far, like hacking away further has led to on balanced better things, and I think that that gives me a degree of optimism. Yeah, you've talked before about how influenced you were by sort of the hardcore seen Black Flag, the d I y Ethos, right.

I was fifteen and nine five, and you know, I formed a terrible punk band called the Walking and Fetamines and we had no drums, so yeah, thank you. We went out and stole trash cans and we were terrible. But I was so inspired by that sort of idea too,

of just you know, try do your best. And you know, I also come at it from and I've heard you say this before, that you think there's like the Protestant Repuritan work ethic, you know, infused into that d I y and being a Midwesterner in America, you know, I kind of got like a double dose of it. So that's just always been a big, big value of mine. And I just have loved that song from the moment

I heard it. Well, thank you, that's very kind. So maybe now let's jump to another value that comes much later in your career, and it is also something that is core to my values, which is the song you wrote called be More Kind. Sure, they've started raising walls around the world now, like Cackles Rags to part of corner Cat on the borders in our heads between the things that can and can't be said, stop talking to

each other. There's something wrong with that. So before you go outset, you don't decide or you will find be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind. Talk to me about kindness, the role that plays in your life and why that's so important to you. Yeah, I guess I had a moment of confluence, if you like, when I was writing that song. I mean, it's funny actually talking about this for the first time in a

while with a degree or distance on it. I had a moment in time around when I sort of first came to like mainstream prominence in the UK certainly and to a lesser degree, but still a little in the states of getting pretty badly burned by well, broadly speaking, by that fact of exposure. You know, Ultimately, one could say that the definition of mainstream is having your music exposed to something beyond a core audience, beyond a voluntary audience.

You know, if you're an underground band, everybody who hears you as people who sort you out, you know what I mean, and by definition, to sort of poke your head over the parapet as it were. If you're on the radio often or whatever, your music is exposed to lots of people who don't necessarily like what you do. And that's fine, that's all, of course, that's just life. But it means that a fair number of people become aware of who you are and don't necessarily love you, do,

you know what I mean? And of course, like you can't spend your day trying to advertise your existence to the world and then complain when everybody thinks the sun shines out of your backside. But at the same time, like anybody involved in kind of promoting themselves in that way. There's a degree of kind of performativeness to it. There's a degree of kind of like a need for sort of love or whatever, how do you want to put it.

So it can be a difficult thing. And then in retrospect, I consider I see happened to a lot of different people. It was quite sharp for me. I got quite burned. It was exacerbated by the fact that this was a point in time when the kind of the negative sides

of social media were less well understood. I think it's fair to say, and like I think nowadays most people, including most artists, are sort of savvy enough to understand what a Twitter pile on is and that it's something that you should avoid or just not pay attention to, and blah blah blah. And that wasn't so much the case in anyway. So I had a bit of a rough time with all of this kind of thing for

a couple of years. And then I also was reading My favorite poet was a man named Clive James, and Clive James had terminal cancer and he was given six months to live in for about six years, which is great. I mean, it's still a great sadness that he's left us. But he wrote a number of poems about mortality and about facing the end of his life, which he ended up having more time to think about than he had

originally thought he might do. And he has a poem called Lesson de Tenebra in which he says the lines I should have been more kind and is my fate to find this out? But find it out too late?

And that landed with me so hard, because I think the thing that I'd sort of started to kind of just about be able to kind of like extract from my own experiences was that, ultimately, regardless of what my political disagreements or social disagreements or whatever, or musical disacreements might have been with everybody, the thing that bothered me was my personal sort of tenor of my behavior towards

other people. And that, ultimately the thing that wakes me up in the middle of the night at those moments when I was callous and unkind and cruel and all those kinds of things. And my God, do I have a catalog of those to choose from to wake up in the middle of the night and to agonize over. I think lots of us do, But with the beginnings of a tiny bit of agent wisdom. It was just kind of like that was apparent to me as the

thing that was most important. And then here was this man, who I regard as one of the most emotionally wise and brilliant words smiths of the twentieth century, facing his own end of his life and essentially saying the same thing, but even more forcefully, and saying that, you know, the only thing that really comes out of the wash in terms of our interactions with each other is the way that we treat the people around us. And that was

hugely powerful for me. You know. It's funny because like I made an album called Be More Kind, and I talked about that a lot for a period of time, as you do with a record, and there were some people who got kind of annoyed at me for saying that. Funnily enough, you know, and ultimately, it's not a panacea. It doesn't solve the world's problems, and indeed, quite often the hardest part of it is when people don't return

that sentiment or that approach, you know. But nevertheless, even the occasions when I've been shouting at and cast gades in public, but have maintained my own composure and my own sort of hopefully sense of kind of like humanity and generosity or whatever. I can look back on those with a better feeling than the times when I lost my ship and screamed at everybody. You know, yep. I interviewed a guy last week named Father Gregory Boyle. He's done a lot of work in Los Angeles with gangs

and amazing man. In his book, he had a line that said, just assume that compassion is the answer to every question, which I mean again, that's a broad statement that I don't think we can say. Of course, it's not always sure, but it's a pretty good orienting idea. What other things you were talking about, Clive James and the end of life. I don't know if you know. I'm sure you're aware of the band Clem Snide, the songwriter. If bars aware of that, not super familiar with as

a person who loves songs. He wrote a song called Roger Ebert about the American film critic as he was getting close to passing gorgeous, gorgeous song, I'd recommend it. Okay, changing gears and I'm talking at a million miles an hour because we don't have a ton of time, so

get better. That's another to me when I look at values, right, there's this idea that there's always some place to go, always some move to make internally externally that makes you or your life for the world just a little bit better. And I loved that song from the minute I heard it, And then as I was reading your book, I realized that one of the lines in it you got from the person who first turned me onto punk music, who

was known at the time Johnny Rotten. Tell me a little bit about that line and him, Johnny Rotten's is funny. I mean, this is an aside to what we're talking about. But what I like about Johnny Rotten is that he's still slightly beyond the pale for a lot of people now, and I think that that's incredible and absolutely as it should be. You know. I adore the Clash, don't get

me wrong. But the Clash have museum and blend of exhibitions about them, and they have supplements in The Guardian about their history as a band, and blah blah blah, you know, and they're just they're very much part of the arts establishment. And Johnny Rotten still four plus years later isn't really acceptable to some people, and I think including some people you know, in the art establishment. And I just think that's the most credible testament to punk

rock as an idea. It wasn't supposed to be acceptable, and all these people who kind of clutched their pills slightly at Johnny Rotten, it's like, exactly, that's the fucking point. Anyway. I met him at a festival in Italy, in a roughly and it was interesting because I do know people who've met him and have had a bad experience of the man, and it's not really my place to sort of have any comment on that. Like, I'm sure that there are people who have met me and have had

a bad experience of me too. I hope not. I try not to have that be the case, but you never know. But I met him and he was really nice, and I asked him, which is a rare, rare thing for me. I asked him to sign a piece of paper for me, and he wrote on it, may the road rise to meet you, and may your enemies be

defeated behind you. And I thought that that was beautiful and I tibuted it around a little bit and put it in a song, but very much with a nod in his direction, because it struck me as a really powerful thing, you know, and get better as a song was a song that I wrote to myself. It's very much a pep talk of a song, but it was a pep talk that I wouldknew that I needed, and I wrote it to myself. And it's a wonderful thing for me when other people read and feel something into that,

and that's fantastic. But like the primary target for that song was myself. Thanks to me and whown spat back the scene, I took her batter breathverd. I a picker skin of the best people I know. I'm looking out for me and so I'm taking the high road, but egins running. I am fine. My I always see the road rising up to meet me, and my heademies defeat it in a mirror behind. I'm trying to get batta

because I have made my chass. She took a play that like you sided riding on my chest and she drew a lot of clus I broke in and said coma Alice based his last when you get that sp because I'm not dead yet. Yeah, I mean you said in your book on Songwriter. You know, you were sort of picturing yourself in this new, defiant, resilient state, and I love that idea, just you know, the resilience of

coming through. There's lots of that on that record. I mean, the title of the record, Positive Songs for Negative People, is so great. I think. Our second guest on the show was a fellow Englishman, Oliver Berkman, who wrote a book called The Antidote Happiness for People who ate Positive Thinking. So that whole idea of sort of balancing those two things together I've always loved absolutely all right, So now

let's move on to your latest record. Now I'm kind of pivoting away from the idea of values, but there's a gorgeous song on the record called a Wave across the Bay about Scott Hutchinson from Frightened Rabbit who passed. And I wanted to ask you a question because a couple of records back again on Positive Songs for Negative People, there was a song for another friend of yours who committed suicide, and it's called us Song for Josh. I

noticed something about these songs. This may be me reading into this, so I feel free to say, like that's not at all it. But the song for Josh, a friend who committed suicide, there's a sentiment of why didn't

you call me? I failed you? There was a sentiment in there that felt more resistant to what had happened, or I don't think angry is the word right, And the song for Scott these years later is a much more peaceful And I don't want to use the word hopeful about a song on suicide, but the tone of those two songs to me is very different. What does that bring up in you when I say that, Yeah, that's totally fair. I mean, I think the thing for me,

there's a couple of things. I mean, the first thing is that they're about two different people, so that, of course the situation was different. Um Scott was very vocal about his mental health, both into his art and as a person, and as crossing as it is to say, I was heartbroken when I heard that Scott had taken his own life, but I wouldn't say that I was surprised particularly. I had always known that it was a thing that was possible. I was hoping unlikely, but it

was possible. My friend Josh, on the other hand, I had no idea that he had any sort of like leanings in that direction, have the best way to put it, that was truly shocking to me, and therefore, you know, my reaction to it was quite different. But also at the same time, I mean, I sort of feel like I worked through a lot of things after Josh's passing, partly in that song and in conversations with friends and his family and whatever else, and you know, that put

me in a slightly different frame of mind. I suppose about the second song, I didn't want to repeat the song, of course, but I think anger is a valid emotion about suicide. I think it's a totally valid emotion, and I did feel some of that around Scott as well.

But I suppose the major sort of thing that I wanted to get across in the song A Wave across the Bay, for me was the feeling that like, and this is the hardest thing that I know how to say about what happened to him, or about anything, really, but like, Scott was my friend, and he was a lovely man, and he was a beautiful artist, and he was a smart dude. And one of the things about Scott is that there was no part of what happened to him that was a mistake, Like he knew what

he was doing. He took a decision and he went through it. I wish he'd made a different decision, but he didn't. And ultimately, there is a part of me that wants to find a way of respecting his autonomy and his sovereignty, you know, um. And that's partly what that song is about. God, damn, I miss you, man. It was just weeks before you went, he was speaking. I just wished that you had told me you were leaving before you walked your final wife. I'm not pissed

off for you. Man. You had something in your soul that we could recognize you were one of us. But he worked out how you could survive, the least for a while, the simpid moment just before you hit the waters, when you were filled with a sense of peace and understanding, with the wind in your hair and the light in your eyes as you realize you were finally escaping. Somehow in that moment, you miraculously miss it, like a wave across the bay, ever breaking. And that's how I like

to think. If you ever falling, never landing, and rolling slowly out sea, you always smiling, you are fighting you are like breaking you wave the crossing by ever breaking, s ever falling, never landing before. I wish he was still here, God damn. But at the same time, ultimately, like I said, he didn't funk up, he didn't slip John. I mean, he didn't make a mistake and do what he did. He knew exactly what he was doing and

he did it and that was his choice. And there's a part of me that wants to kind of like almost shake his hand and say, Okay, dude, you know that was you and that was your right to do that, which I do believe it was devastating for a lot of people, myself included. But do any of us have the right to say to him, no, you're not allowed to do that or whatever. I mean, I don't think so. I wanted to part as friends. I mean, that sounds

like a crazy thing to say. And it's not that they didn't want that for my friend Josh either, but I was much more in shock, essentially, I think when I wrote song for Josh would be the best way putting it. Yeah, you know, I have found a friend

after he tried to commit suicide bleeding out. I mean, I've had a lot of people who have had mental health issues, and there is a point where you do realize some people are carrying such a heavy weight and there's only so much that you can do, and you hope that it continues to get better, but but sometimes

it doesn't. Yeah. Well, and ultimately it's not really your right to tell somebody else how to feel about anything, really, Yeah, And in both of those situations, for me, like as I say, there's a desire on some able to respect that peasants of autonomy. Yep, Frank, thank you so much for coming on. Your music is always one of the ways that feeds my good wolf over the years, it's been so important to me and it's great to see you again. That's very kind of you to say, And

thank you very much for having me back again. It means I didn't screw it up too badly the first time around. All right, see you next time, See thanks time. Bye. Up Next is an interview with one of our good friends, Joe Russell. Hey Joe, welcome to the show. Thank you, Eric. It's a pleasure to be on. So Joe is one of my best friends, have been a best friend of mine since oh boy nine eight, probably lots of stories there,

but we don't have time for all those. But I wanted to ask Joe to come on and share a little bit about Frank Turner because he is someone else who loves him as much as I do, and I think he's got a couple songs that were on his mind. So first, welcome, Thank you. Yeah, Eric, I'm really excited to talk about Frank. And I vividly remember when you had given me a mixed list of all these songs. I knew that you were into him, and I was like, Okay, well give me a list to introduce the world Frank

Turner to me. And I'm still very fond of that. Occasionally I'll go back and just let that one role and I think of that time when you had to introduced him to me. Yeah, so what's the first song you chose? It was the first song that I really said, oh my god, I love this music and what it

draws me into and it's live fast ile. I used to act back not in this matter, and I used to say I didn't can that we wouldn't be doing this whatever, But then the truth then then oh, it's just scared tay for tell, like a black cut show you can't take your right. That is the god I still got to do be so got so many tell us ever Rid Sime, just keep on bank you to stay. So we done it last Sep'm gonna good time days and the last we right windows on the clubs are

in the Southwest. Skiss o the telling about day right here Catta we will want to say so it's the one that I first sell for. Instantly, I thought of my love for my closest friends, you and a few of our other best friends, and just reflecting on all the life challenges that we've gone through over decades and just how we just continue to push through them. And it's an emotional song for me. What's interesting is the song that my son Jordan's picked was a song that

was also a song for him about friendship. I think a lot of Frank Turner songs do that well. They talk about the importance of friendship and how beautiful a thing it is. Yeah, and it's friendship and all of us realizing we're in it together to just you know, get through this crazy world and acknowledging how hard it is for all of us and stick together, be together, and we will get through as well as we possibly can a lot better than if we isolate ourselves. I

think it addresses the need for fellowship quite a bit. Yeah, love and fellowship, yep. Yeah. And I loved that song too the first time I heard it, just the whole pretense of it, like I'm not going to live fast and die young. I'm going to live fast and die old. I'm not going to just settle for one of those things, you know, And obviously our speed of living has come way down, or we would not make it to be would not make it to be old. But I just

loved that idea the first time I heard it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's certainly a lifestyle of Frank Turner fans that probably had some really full life that at a very young age that hopefully they'll appreciate his sentiment around like, you know, it's been great, and let's continue to have something great that's practical for kind of who we are in the here and now in a later live Frank Turner is just for old people. I think that obviously your your son took a showing to him

at a very young age. And I mentioned I have a second song that I quite loved that I can't help, but you know, sometimes tear up. I especially tear it up. When I heard this song live for the first time, just trying to sing it, I was practically passing out because I was holding back somebody tears and shouting at the same time. And it was losing days. Besides the general puzzlement of life, just kind of passing by the music because this punch of energy that just overwhelms me,

especially in that life setting. Oh love floating back to body. In the days where I was young, Gut used to fix this South Quick shop after every slip by smole Bu. These days I'm collecting Scots don't seem to fade, got sund bruises that one go away to think, Dad, I would never live frost when to fights, and when you think like that, each day is a gifted feels five. But I'm fine too long for my side of the deal. As a recession, I'm not sure how to feel. Sad kid,

losing days. You used to take a line side in the blinking harbor eye always sad, sadly a man of greatness and song by greatness, So it it's just hard to deny how much impact it has. Want to hear it. That's definitely another song that I would have to say is probably my very close second favorite song. It was the second song that I know that I was like, Okay, now I'm just really falling in love with everything that's Frank Turner. And now you have a new favorite memory

to go with that song. What's that? Didn't you say that you have a memory now of Chris making fun

of it? Oh my god? Yeah. So yeah, every time I hear this song, I obviously I have that that initial impression in what it means to me, but I'll never forget like playing it when we were all together and we were we were just listening to music, you know, we were like juggling all these speakers around in that listening room, and I had just chose it and like our real time cue of of songs that we were playing, and I looked over and I just saw Chris kind of like rolling his eyes at me, you know, just

mocking it because he just doesn't like it. And now every time I hear it, not only do I have that sentimental experience of my original love for it, but I also remember when Chris is making fun of me, and I liked that as kind of a mark in time of looking back and when we were together. Yeah, he does not care for Frank Turner's music in the way that you, Steve and I do, which is why he is. It must be driving him crazy to do this.

That's why I'm gonna interview like sixty people. He's going to just have to keep hearing why Frank Turner is so great. It's why he's not been invited to participate in this. But yes, he is having to edit it, which is sort of my you know, my subtle pleasure. Well, Joe, thank you. This has been fun for me because I got Jordan's on the show, my son for the first time, and now I've got you on for the first time. So this is great to get some of the people

who mean the most to me my pleasure too. I'm really happy to be on the show and love the podcast. Thank you so much. Here next, we have a short interview with a man you've actually heard about before on this show. It's Eric Son Jordan's Welcome to the show. Hey Dad, how's it going. It's good. I'm so excited to have you on, to have my son on. Finally, people heard about you a thousand times so here you

are in somewhat person. We recorded this in person, you and me and Columbus, and I, with all my years of audio experience, screwed it up. So now we are doing it with you at home in Nashville and me and Columbus and just gonna ask you, like I've asked some other people to pick a Frank Turner song or two and then talk about what you love about it. Yeah, so I had a really hard time trying to narrow down my options to one song. I've been listening to Frank Turner kind of as long as I can remember.

I don't really remember when you started listening to him, but kind of on my own was seventh grade for me, which is probably about ten years ago now, So yeah, a lot of formative years through there that he's like sort of been with me. So, like, picking one song has been hard, but they're definitely songs that, like I connect to different time periods. I try to pick one that I find myself connecting with currently. So I chose St.

Christopher's Coming Home. Fridayvening by even begins before my phone begins to ring with people asking where I am, and I can't suppress a smile. We talk about the chances are that I am far away, and so I'm phased out of the black and that's how I miss out on another night, the cardoon night when nothing really happens yet, but everything goes down and and I'm just a promise

to pick up the phone when I'm in town. Who when the evening cast his shadows on the corners of my days, And I'm old and I am settled in the place for rubbles, when my wondering me dering to find me reach there, and yes, whatever else may me,

may my friends remember me? La la La. Yeah. The song is kind of about being away from home or being away from your friends, but he sort of like puts like a slightly more positive spin on that, like I'm feeling the pain of being away and like missing these people, but at the end of the day, like I know these people love me, and I love these people and my life currently I'm sort of between a lot of places for parts of the year and on the go, so with certain friends some of the year,

and then I make new friends. My job is like a lot of coming and going, So I meet people for a few months, get really close with them, and then potentially never see them again. So those have been

a lot of like what I've been experiencing lately. So I've been like resonating with that song, and there's like a specific line of that song that I really like, sudden along the lines of he's like talking about missing out and missing out on the kind of night where like nothing's happening but everything goes down something like that.

Those are my like favorite times that I feel like I really miss, like you think you would miss like a big birthday party or a holiday, but it's sort of those casual nights where like a new inside has made or like a new favorite board game has found

those at the moments you really miss. And that's why I like about Frank Turner is like I've heard him in interviews say that he enjoys songs where it feels like the song has like expressed something that he's always known just hasn't been able to put in words, And I feel like this song does that for me as

well as a lot of his other music. Yeah, you do have a life that has a lot of coming and going, and that is difficult on friendship, and yet you've maintained a couple of core groups of friends for quite some time now, Yeah, yeah, which is true. And then it's been interesting to see, like because I had my first big move to college, which was moving away

from like the friend group that I've had forever. Yeah, it's just been interesting to see all of those friends and then now the friends that I made, like in college and a little bit after college, and how that distance and time away like morse and changed things. Not necessarily bad, but it just makes things different and creates new dynamics and stuff like that. Yeah, what are the other people I interviewed for this is Joe Russell, who I have been friends with since I was eighteen, So

that is a long time ago. I don't know, thirty some years probably something like that. But I would say all but four years of that, two years of that, three years of that, maybe he's been somewhere else New York or California. And we've still maintained a friendship all this time, and we still text, you know, nearly every day.

And so that song I went back and listened to it after you selected it, because it's not one that I actually knew that well and UM really resonated with also, So thank you, Well, I hope to have you on again thanks to Bye Bye. Closing out the episode, here's the one New feeds own Jenny Gay and now a voice you've heard before. This is Jenny. Hello everybody, and I'm going to ask her the same question. Tell me about a Frank Turner song that you love and why

you love it. I mean, I had to really put some thought into this to pick just one, honestly, because so many of his songs really, um, what's the word,

They just stir some thing inside of me. And the theme that I connect back to time and time again with Frank Turner is this spirit of life is hard, and it can feel really awful, and we can get into some very dark places, and then we can call on friends, we could call on our inner strength, and we can rally, you know, we can will ourselves to make the choice to continue on, you know, despite the hardness,

and that it gets better. And so the song that kind of captures all of that in the most powerful way for me is The Next Storm. And I think it's the music and the lyrics that come together to like just really conjure up that, Okay, I can do this, I can choose to continue on and it's going to get better. We had a difficul winter. We had a rough few months, or when the storms came in off

the coast, it felt like they broke and everything. Honest one, it's easy enough to talk about blitz spirit when you're on the holding a roof fucking meting hit it and the pictures and the papers go ruined by the rain. And we wouldn't knew that then ever, gain't try again. But I do want to spend my life indoors lay long and waiting on the next storm. As to want to spend my life inside. I want to step out and face some shine with ours faith in the omens,

without faith in the guts. We just ended up crunching at the emptier incherous a gambles, crunching our hearts. And I don't care what the well am out of saying, because the last time that I saw him, he was on his knees, he was praying the breaches out. The side has cut out just the same, and we un knew that. There we get try again, but the doors spendlow. My life indoors lay low. We're waiting on the next star. I's always spend my light inside. I will step out

the face sunshine. The lyrics are we had a difficult winter. We had a rough few months. When the storms came in off the coast. It felt like they broke everything on us at once. And it's easy enough to talk about blue spirit when you're not holding the roof up and knee deep in it. And the pictures and the papers get ruined by the rain, and we wondered if they ever get dry again. But I don't want to spend the whole of my life indoors, laying low and waiting on the next storm. I don't want to spend

the whole of my life inside. I want to step out and face the sunshine. So it helps me to connect to that point when you know, even though it's hard, we just have to choose to step forward and step out and turn our face towards as cheesy as I feel like, as I say it now, the sunshine, you know, I just love it. So I hope as you hear

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