Terry Patten on Inner-Work and Outer-Work

have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Terry Patton, who speaks and consults internationally as a community organizer, philosopher,

and teacher. Terry also founded the online series Beyond Awakening along with a local nonprofit Bay Area Integral and Tools for Exploration, a catalog company that defined the field of consciousness technologies. He's a social entrepreneur involved in projects that include restorative redwood forestry and the innovation of fossil fuel alternatives. His new book is a New Republic of the Heart and Ethos for Revolutionaries, a guide to inner work for

Holistic Change. And before we get started, I wanted to talk about a hobby of organized Well, it's not really hobby, it's more of a lifestyle. But Eric and I are both avid juglers, but we don't juggle kittens or flaming bowling pins. What we tend to juggle is jobs, in my case multiple jobs. It's extremely difficult to make this show and to do it properly. Eric has recently quit his day job to concentrate on doing The One You

Feed full time. We really do need your support to keep the programming going, and while it's difficult to ask for help, it's likely even more difficult to not receive any help. Being a patreon of The One You Feed and making monthly donations is what really makes this possible. It takes an enormous amount of work and multiple people other than Eric and I to create a podcast like this that takes so much time and comes out every week and maintains the quality that it does, which we're

very proud of. And it's not just Eric and I that need your help, it's other listeners that love the show that are maybe not capable of making a monthly donation. So for those of you who are, we really need your help. We really appreciate your help, and you can go to one new feed dot net slash support to make donations. Thanks so much. And if things do work out and our time opens up and we're still making the podcast, maybe someday Eric and I can post a

video of us juggling kittens or flaming bowling pins. All right, that's enough of me asking for help. Here's the interview with Terry Patton. Hi, Terry, welcome to the show. Hi Eric, happy to be here. I'm excited to have you on. Your book is called a New Republic of the Heart and Ethos for Revolutionaries, a guide to inner work for

holistic change. And I'm particularly interested in talking about this because it takes kind of head on a question that listeners will know comes up on the show from time to time, which is really what's the right balance or how do we trade off this doing inner work? That is important, but also not getting mired in ourselves and contributing to the world that's out there also, and that's really the theme of the book. So I'm excited to talk about all of that. But let's start like we

normally do, with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,

which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and thinks about it for a second and looks up at his grandfather and says, well, grandfather, which one wins, And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, I've always loved that parable. Eric.

I was just kind of delighted and charmed by the name of the podcast because it refers to it, and in a way I suppose it means for me probably pretty much what it means to you and everybody else. But as I reflected, knowing that you would ask me this question. I realized that in our time, it's important

to recognize something about the bad wolf. That the bad wolf is a shape shifter, and it tries to disguise itself as the good wolf, and it isn't always so obvious to you what you're feeding, And therefore you have

to go a little deeper. You have to interrogate the apparent good wolf and see if the good wolf is encouraging you to be charming on the dance floor of the Titanic, or if the good wolf is encouraging you to shut your ears and heart too larger dynamics that morally require your engagement, and even to kind of tune you into whether what looks like the good wolf is causing you to sit and meditate at a time when you really need to get up and go out and

engage your neighbors. So I hope that's a useful reflection that might deepen your sense of it, even though of course I see it in just the same term as everybody else does as well. That's a great take. It gave me an image of a wolf sitting under a lamp in like a traditional police interrogation room, which made

me smile. But it's an absolutely valid point, um. And you know, I'll start the conversation by saying the book, I found it challenging to me a little bit because I am wrestling with these questions, and so I'm gonna just start off by reading something that you wrote that'll

that'll kind of get us kicked off. Here. You say, we are called to a robust and dynamic new form of spiritual activism or activist spirituality that fuses the inner work of personal transformation and awakening with the outer work of service, social entrepreneurship, and activism. So talk to me about how you end up at that point where that's what you're feeling called to write about. Well, you know,

it's paradoxical our world right now to some degree. You know, I think there were two streams that came out of the sixties, and I am a child of the sixties. One of them was mostly activist, and one of them was mostly focused on the inner work. And I always felt that those of us who chose to do the inner work were in a sense taking the high road. We were noticing that when we pointed a problem outside us in the world, three of our fingers are pointing back at us, and we took to heart the idea

that we had to change our own act first. But there are a lot of people who end up being stuck in that self focus in a way that's ultimately not allowing them to bring the depth of their character to a world that's right now in a real crisis. And I think what time it is on the planet is is such that it's no longer morally justifiable to be so focused only on the inner work, and that you know, in a way you can't fulfill the inner work. Well, you know, the last ox sorting picture is coming back

to the marketplace with helping hands. The ultimate fruits are are the bodhisata vow uh. So our inner work really does have to bring us under the circumstances of what's happening in our world right now. Brother, two, sister, armed arm, you know, in contact with with everybody else because we're all in this life book together and it's looking like it may run aground. So let's find each other. You know,

it's not a moment to just find your calm. Yeah, And there's a paragraph you have that hit me kind of right on, because I was like, Yep, guilty is charged in certain cases, you say, we'd rather be resigned to it as one of the things we cannot change and choose serenity. We like to focus on the things we can change. Our personal goals, dramas, trials, and satisfactions, and our personal lives always demand constant and immediate attention.

So many people confidently assert that our emergency is an unhealthy preoccupation, a distraction, And you know, that definitely hit me,

and it's interesting. I was having a conversation with my son, who's uh just finished his first year of college, and he is certainly more on the four front of what I would say social justice and what we would think of as activism in the more traditional sense, you know, out really fighting for social change, And him and I had an interesting conversation where we talked about how we're both very interested in the relieving of suffering for other people.

He's gonna be a sociology major. He's very focused on it from a sociological perspective, and I realized that I'm much more focused on it from a personal transformation perspective, not just mine, but working with people on changing their own relation to suffering, relieving suffering in the individual, but It's certainly got me thinking about this idea and what different forms can activism take and and you talk about

that a little bit in the book. So I was wondering if you could talk about what are the different ways that you see people who are engaging in the good fight will say, who are also doing the inner work, But what are some of the ways that you see that activism taking shape out in the world beyond just show up at a protest as an example and carrying a sign. Well, you know, I have a little taxonomy

of activism. I talked about in the system activism, which is donating money, helping register people to vote, voting yourself, volunteering your time, supporting a candidate, actually trying to affect

political change in a direct way. Against the system activism, which is more that protest that we usually associate with the word, and around the system activism, which is more social entrepreneurship or changing your diet, or educating girls in the Third world, or things that really profoundly can change the world, you know, developing a new technology that would make fossil fuels less competitive. All those things would change

the world, but they don't directly address politics. I think that there are two fundamental higher motivations that people of, one of them being I want to self actualized, I want to awaken, I want to be fully conscious, I want to realize my potential be all that I can be. And the other is I want to help. I want to be of benefit, I want to make a difference for others. And I don't think that you can, in the end fulfill either one of those impulses without addressing both.

So very often people who are resonant with my message are already interested in activism, and I need to turn them more to the inner work, whereas people who have been focused on the inner work, I'll point to the importance of of an incarnate and embodied UH being a force for change. We we are alive in a very unique moment in our planet's trajectory, in our in our

in our species trajectory. We certainly are. And you know what comes up for me with some of this is and it's a tendency that I have gotten way better at as I've gotten older, and I tend to think of it being one of the wisest teachings that comes out of Buddhism, which is the middle Way, because My inclination is to always think I should be doing more on either of those fronts. I should be doing more to awaken, I should be doing more to help others,

to serving the world. How do these things come together for you in a way that doesn't feel like you are perpetually falling short really in both those endeavors, you know, in a way, Um, we all have to allow ourselves to wake up from a trance state, you know. Charlie Tart back in the sixties coined this term the consensus trance, to help us recognize that our social agreements about reality are not as objective as we tend to think, and that in some sense we're all in a shared dream.

And I think right now many people use that metaphor of being on the deck of the Titanic. Our collective circumstances is not working. Human civilization is in you know, some people use the word unraveling. We're scared by that. We tend to get frightened, we feel grief stricken. And if we cognize what we're facing in terms of gosh, should I despair or should I be hopeful? Should I

be positive and optimistic or pessimistic? Well, of course, we can recognize it's way healthier to be optimistic and positive. But it may be that on the other side of a confrontation with this darkness, there's a different kind of positivity, a different kind of optimism that's actually deeper and more more adequate, and that in a way, we have to let go of clinging to positivity in order to actually become the people who are really able to meet the

challenges of our time. You talk about this idea that, on one hand, from an awakening perspective or a deep spiritual perspective, you say, I can trust reality itself never to really be a problem, however much death and loss it may contain, So that's sort of the absolute perspective, right, And then you go on to say, but we must not confuse the ultimate hope we may have in the goodness or rightness of things with the false hope that they will automatically turn out well for us in our world.

And you say, a radical, robust hope lies on the

other side of despair. And I always find that such an interesting thing to try and hold in consciousness, and one that depending on where I'm feeling a certain day, I might land on one side or the other of that, I very often, you know, when I hear us talk about everything is ultimately okay and right, there's a part of me that's like, well, no, it's clearly not like you know, as you and I are having this conversation, there are horrible things happening to human beings as we talk,

And yet there is that deeper place that says, well, from some of the awakenings I've had, that reality is fundamentally okay. And so you're really asking us to kind

of hold both of those things. Yes, we're actually, I think, at a point in our cultural evolution, particularly the culture of people who have been serious spiritual practitioners, who have awakened in real ways at least had glimpses of a of a higher level of consciousness, where we're ready for a stage transition, a maturation from what I like to think of is the adolescence of the whole human species

to a new kind of human adulthood. And we're passing through a harrowing right of passage right now, which is like any right of passage. It scares the Bejesus out of all those adolescent boys. They think they might die, and it's because they find a way to show up with what's best in their character that they become a man. And you know, this is something that's alive in some ways. I think women are ahead of men. You know, become

a true woman. But the metaphors around manhood have have a special residence because there is a kind of toughness and resolve and maturity and shouldering of responsibility that are a big part of our human maturation at this point. Yet, you talk about two competing you call meta narratives, which

are basically one is everything's going to work out. Okay, we're going to come through all this um the world is becoming a better place, and then the other, which is this, oh boy, we're doomed, right, We're driving the planet off a cliff. It's all going to end badly. And it's interesting because I'm certainly, to a large extent, I'm in the former category. At least, I feel like as a species we are becoming better, we are evolving. There is more kindness, there's more love, there's more justice

than there's ever been in the world before. Now, if you look at a particular moment in time in a particular place, it may not appear that way but overall, I'm I'm a big advocate and could spend forty minutes talking about why that's the case. And at the same moment, we are perched very perilously in a way that we've not been before, and so it kind of feels like both are true to me. That's right, they are both true.

There are real important truths that we need to take in from both the doomsayers and those who you know, I call it boom and doom or or or the Cornucopian or Malthusian meta narratives. And you know, it is true that in the terms that of our current physics and the terms of our current economy, we have overshot our planets carrying capacity, and it looks like we're cruising

for a collapse. It's also true that we are improving and awakening and becoming better people and experiencing exponential advances in our technology. And the whole history of evolution has been miracle after miracles, so looking forward, it's only sane to imagine there will be more miracles. And so there's a basis for being heartened and optimistic, and both those

things are simultaneously reale. You touched on it briefly, but I wanted to hit it a little bit more, this idea of the consensus trance, because one way that we think about a consensus trance, so to speak, would be that it drives behavior. You know, there's a consensus, and it drives behavior. But you're talking about something and and the gentleman you reference is talking about something much deeper, not just behavioral, but in terms of consciousness itself, the

way that we see and perceive reality. That's right. You know, your attention is a little like a flashlight beam, and awareness itself is a little like sunlight flooding every corner of the room. So what we're talking about, though, is, you know, very it's a special moment when somebody awakens to awareness to the point where they can see the flashing around of their attention as a flashlight beam, and

they're really free of that point of view. In our social relations, in our media, in our conversations were mostly exchanging perspectives, points of view, and the points of view that we know how to take in exchange and reinforce among one another have been defined by agreements over time. And when we raise our kids, we speak to our kids and we orient our kids in a way that

tunes them into our way of seeing things. And what Tart did was to study the way we socialize our kids and recognize finally that wow, this is exactly what we do to create a hypnotic trance. Our consensus reality as important as it is. You know, somebody who can't join us in our consensus reality. We define those people as mentally ill. That that's insanity when you don't join the consensus reality. So we need consensus realities, and yet

they also limit us. And right now we're in a situation in which our greater consensus reality is not orienting us in a way that's allowing us to rise to meet a new set of civilizational challenges. When you say that our our consensus reality is primarily the one of separation, and that you know the world is is made up of separate things, separate people were separate from everything else versus a deeper reality that points to interdependence and wholeness.

I think that's certainly true, and yet again it's paradoxical. We're at a moment in the complexification of human culture where we can't hold paradox and learn more by understanding those paradoxes reveal something about the very structure of our own perspectives and the structure of reality. So we're kind of used to thinking in these either or terms. We have to learn to think in both and terms in a wild way where we can appreciate and join in

a consensus reality and also outgrow it simultaneously. And that actually requires the development of not just meta cognitive awareness, but meta perspectivele Uh, it's it's it's a it's a it's a paradigm shift. It's another stage of the evolution of our meaning making. This isn't just like a high state of consciousness where we sense our oneness with all things. It's an ability to account for way more nuance and ambiguity and a process view. You know, we are processes

in bigger processes. All of that complexity is apparent to us, but our language is always dumbing us down into a subject object uh dualistic framing of things that right now just isn't good enough to deal with the complexity of the world we're living in. Yeah, And I think that's where you talk about their needing to be evolution in the species as a whole or in more people. I think that's exactly the area that I'm most see us lacking as a species is in that ability to hold

multiple nuanced points of view. Our cultural dialogue certainly is not has not been heading in that direction as of late, and it and it's certainly an area that a lot

of people are challenged with. I think it is. I think you're right, it is a It is a big step forward as a species, I guess, for lack of a better way to put it, Yes, And yet those of us who are on the path, who have been awakening, who have been doing spiritual practice, or who have been taking perspectives on the way we see things, you know, looking at our own consciousness and and and and outgrowing

our limited patterns. You know, there are way more people doing that than there ever were before, and our numbers are growing rapidly. And as I point out in the book, if we can get to the point where ten percent of the population is operating at a different level, and I think some of the Nordic countries in Europe and you know, who are kind of at the growing tip of of evolution, are getting kind of close. We're going to begin to see rapid and dramatic cultural changes in

political changes of a whole new order. And I'm I'm excited about that. I think we are the tip of the spear of something that can even change the game. Yeah. I thought that was an interesting part of the book, that the studies and the science that show that once ten percent of the population really firmly believes something, that

it tends to to bring the other folks along. Let's change a little bit, because I want to move We've been talking sort of broadly, and I want to take it down to the person a little bit more for a second. Because one of the main things that you talk about, a fundamental change that people can make and that that do make and is really important, is going from a seeker to a practitioner. And I was wondering if you could elaborate on what that means and why

it's so profound. Yes. Sure, Well, you know, when we first have a moment of awakening, whether it's through an anthogenic drug or a meditation retreat or just a spontaneous opening, we suddenly realized, Wow, there's another mode of consciousness that's way way happy or more connected. I want more of that, and we seek it. And yet that mode of seeking the orientation of a seeker is an orientation that is well grounded in lack. It's grounded and what's missing. You

say it very well. You say, the problem is that seeking actively prevents the happiness in amagine, and therefore you really do have to wake up out of that mode of seeking, because what does the seeker do. The seeker seeks, and what is the presumption of seeking. Something's missing, So we're looking for what's missing. We're always residing in what's missing, and as long as we're seeking, we're being someone who's

missing something. On the other hand, if we really allow the incredible joy and freedom and peace and happiness that come with that awakening to become our orientation, and then we notice that we are tending to contract from that, we're tending two lose that clarity, then we can return to it. We can reassert it, we can relax that contraction, we can observe it, recognize and reorient to trusting the

wholeness and okayness that is deeper. And if we orient in that way, then instead of being a presence of anxiety, a presence of lack, a presence of problem and dilemma, we can be a presence of the wholeness that is really our condition. And that is profound for us because we're relaxing into our awakening rather than always trying to

create it. But it's really profound for others because we're kind of an irritant to others as long as we're reasserting the problem, and we're a source of strength once we're practicing the wholeness that we've intuited to be our actual condition. So is it a mindset change into one of practice, Because that's very easy to sort of say, well, if you've had a little bit of an awakening, you should just live from that awakening, which is again relatively

easy to say. But if ninety five percent of the time you don't feel that right, then to your point, it's natural to seek it. What is the process of since we can't control the experience were necessarily having, right, I can't just flip a switch and say, Okay, now I'm going to feel whole. No, that's right, But I can I can feel a problem and be inclined to seek and reflect. Huh. Interesting here, I'm feeling so separated, and yet I know I'm not really separated. Huh, what's

going on here? And I can become a curious participant in this automatic process of seeking and not just be in motion pursuing and reinforcing that sense of lack. And the more I do that, the more recognition takes place. Recognition is really what relieves me of that momentum. And when that recognition arrives deeply in the body in a felt way such that the wholeness and okay, nous, that

really is my situation. Even if I'm going to die, even which you know, which I am, but you know, even if I'm going to die soon, or even if someone I really really love is dying, or even if there are horrible things going on in my world, which there are, there's a kind of surrender and trust of

being that is the very soul of sanity. And yes, we lapse in it, but if we're really clear that that's what's true, we can reflect and recognize this process of contracting from it, and that is what crosses that kind of infinitely. It's an infinite gulf until our recognition causes us to magically arrive on the other side of it, and that is what's possible. There's a few things you wrote. I'll just read them because I think they say it better than I will say it. But you say, am

I practicing separation and division or wholeness and interdependence? Where am I coming from? In a moment, you know, if I can stop and look at what my orientation is. And I do think that that idea of practice is such a big one. You've got a line you're quoting some people that were early in the human potential movement who say a whole life of regular, ongoing practice is necessary. There's no quick fix. It takes an ongoing, transformational lifestyle

to sustain the fruits of practice. And that made me think of a line that listeners if they don't skip it every time the show starts, which I mean, I wouldn't blame if they did. Um, But we have a little intro we read at the beginning, and one of those lines that in there is it takes conscious, constant and creative effort to make a life worth living. And those things really resonate strongly with my personal sort of sense of the world, which is there's no quick fix.

And that I say often on the show. I don't know where I first heard. I did not make this up, but that often we can't think our way into right action. We have to act our way into right thinking. Yeah, that's lovely. Well, I totally resonate with that. In fact, you know, for years. But I've primarily done is to teach UH integral life practice, which is UH understanding of practice that recognizes it's not just about our internal consciousness.

It's body, mind, spirit, psychology, shadow, relationships, work, our citizenship in the world. Everything is practiced. And I'd like to mention something that's in the book. UM there's a slogan that UH, an early neuroscientist named Donald Hebb came up

with that neurons that fire together, wire together. And that means essentially that whatever we're doing right now, my attempting to communicate this in a way that's genuinely caring really hopes for the best for every listener, for you and everyone. Then I'm practicing something healthy, and I'm going to be more likely to be in that state. But if in some part of myself I'm distracted or not full really present, if in some part of myself I'm anxious or resentful,

I'm cementing those neural circuits. So we're always practicing something, and we're often practicing anxiety or resentment. We're often practicing distractability and kind of wandering craving. So recognizing that we're always practicing something helps us to wake up and then bring intention to how we're living and begin to repattern our neurology intentionally because we can, and why not. Otherwise we tend to drift toward a kind of unconscious pattern

that's ultimately an unhealthy and unhappy one. I agree the way you wrote in the book, and you just said it right there, we're always practicing something. There's another thing that you write that I think is really helpful, because sometimes when I hear I'm always practicing something, and I'm practicing resentment or disc action or whatever, I start to feel bad or frightened or it reinforces itself. And so there's a little short part you have here that I

found very comforting. It says, our lapses become shorter in duration. If we forget, we will remember again. And however we feel at a given moment, even if we feel terrible, even if we feel nothing at all, our commitment to practice remains unabated. So whether we have lapsed for a minute, an hour, a week, a month, or several years, We can always begin again now, And I just love that because it takes us out of the regret for I have not been as conscious as active all the different

things that I wish I was. Oh boy a, my programming these neurons wrong and into Okay, I can just start again now. It's just like meditation. Just in this moment. Oh okay, I'll return my attention to the breath. Or thank god, we are able to be practitioners, you know. It is such a a grace in our lives that practice is possible and that recognition is possible. And there's a kind of joy that comes in that brief moment

of sudden recognition. Oh yeah, I can reorient, and I can rest as the open intelligence that I always already am, and as that I'm a free presence, and there's a certain sanity and happiness. And then I'm strong enough to turn to face some things that are really profoundly disturbing to my ordinary, separated consciousness, but I show up for them with an entirely different quality of feeling and attention

and capacity. There is a lot in the book, and one of the big things that is in the book, and you were a very early part of the integral movement, and there's so much that that we're is not even going to have a chance to tap. I'm basically saying that for listeners that you know, there's a lot here that integral idea of that you you mentioned it from the context of practice that we need to be looking at, you know, body work, mind work, spiritual work, shadow work,

or psychological work. You then go on and say those are all individual practices very important, but we also have to be looking at relational practices. And you say there are three main spheres of these relational practices or you call them social practice, intimate relationships, work in creative service,

and civic participation. Yeah. Well, you know, in the book Integral Life Practice that I co authored with uh Ken well Burg, Adam Leonard, and Marco Morelli, we identified for what we called modules core modules of aategal life practice UH practices relating to the body, the mind, to spirit it, and to shadow And as I taught it, I ended up expanding that definition to include relational practices and also a wider definition of psychological UH soul work in the

relational domain. A lot of us do our deepest work in our most intimate relationships with our partner. But you know, our intimate relationships with our kids and with our parents and with our best friends are equally rich domains for us to learn about ourselves and our feelings. So it's important to recognize that the hardest thing to do is to be related to other people. It is it is where we experience limits most, where we're lonely. We want

more connection where we have the most connection. There we suffer the limits of our intimacy and our mutual love the most. It's when your dearest friend seems not to hear the thing felt most deeply, so when your spouse seems to just interrupt and run rough shot over something that was really important for you to share, that's where we suffer it. So that's a hugely rich domain. But

you know, we spend most of our time working. We spend most of our time engaged in trying to make some kind of a constructive contribution to our world, and our ability to do that has to be an area of constant growth and practice. It's time management. It's got to do with being our best, you know, in in so many different ways, managing our attention, thinking outside the box. But it's very important that we not forget that we

have this huge responsibility to the commons. We're in a time right now where our world is largely falling apart. Because it's in the United States at least, it's become a kind of in built presumption that smart people gain the system. Smart people find ways to cheat on their taxes without being caught. Smart people find ways to gain an advantage economically that ends up costing everybody a tenth of assent, but the lawyer who figured it out is

a multi millionaire. That these kinds of relationships to the to the collective are are are sapping our collective health, and individuals who are really conscious, who begin to notice and see this, have to begin to become a presence of the health of that collective. We need to restore the broken commons. We want to be a presence of something different, and so our engagement with our communities, even our families, our towns, our states, are nations, are our

our world. You know, wherever we live, it's actually an area where we depend on each other the most. You know, we really need others to be good citizens of all these different levels of community, and our recognizing that as a dimension of our practice is super important, especially right now. I've said this on the show before. Um, you know, I started the show largely to avoid going on to

autopilot and living unconsciousness. We talked about and I really figured that most of it would be about inner work, and certainly a lot of it is. But what has been surprising to me and shows up over and over and over again is the importance of the world outside of ourselves, whether it be to your point, our intimate relationships,

our work relationships are civic participating. I cannot say that word, and we're just gonna let it go that that isn't equally important part of our growth and our development and of living a good life. Yeah, you know, I mean ultimately, the greatest, freest, most awake spiritual beings that we admire the most are people like Goudaba and Socrates and Jesus who really had an impact on their whole society. There are people like Dr King or Gandhi or or or

Nelson Mandela that changed the world. The ideal of the sad who of the of the completely still moveless realize er, that's not a role model for realization in our time, Real true awakeness in this time has to find its way to express itself in a way that affects our shared life. If everything that we love is threatened, and sense it really is that calls to the heart, It asks for us to be a presence of wholeness in the midst of this crisis of fragmentation, and the fact

that that requires something new. You know, there's no perfect models for what I'm pointing to. I'm noticing that there's been an evolution of dharma, an evolution of awakening, and it continues to evolve, and those of us who are most awakened shoulder at a different level of responsibility for our shared future. So we're all being drawn into a wild, new, uncharted territory where absolutely our inner work is primary and it's essential that it be expressed in a way that's

more than merely subjective. Well, I think that is a wonderful place for us to wrap up. You and I are going to have a post show conversation, Bree. We're going to talk about your five categories of practice mornings, moments, mission, milestones, and momentum and listeners if you are interested in hearing the post show conversations for this and lots of other guests. You can go to when you Feed dot Net Slash Support and you can learn about how to support the

show and how to get those extra conversations. And we will have links in the show notes Terry to your book and your website and all that stuff. So thank you so much. I've really enjoyed talking with you. I've really enjoyed this too, Thanks so much. Eric. Okay, bye bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One you Feed podcast. Head over to one you Feed dot net slash Support.

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