Tara Brach- Re-Release

you about what's important in your life right now. The more we know about you, the more we can create and give you the things that you want. That's one you feed dot net slash feedback, and there's a link very near the top of your show notes that you can click on to take you right to the survey. Thanks so much. How do we become present enough and open enough and courageous enough to really be with the

life that's here? Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's

not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Tara Brock,

an American psychologist and proponent of Buddhist meditation. She is a guiding teacher and founder of the Insight Meditation Community of Washington, d C. Brock also teaches about Buddhist meditation at centers for meditation in yoga in the United States and Europe, including Spirit Rock Meditation Center in Woodacre, California, the Crapolu Center, and the Omega Institute for Holistic Studies. Brock is an engaged Buddhist specializing in the application of

Buddhist teachings to emotional healing. Her two thousand three book Radical Acceptance Embracing Your Life with the Heart of a Buddha focuses on the use of practices such as mindfulness for healing trauma. Her two thousand thirteen book True Refuge, Finding a Place of Freedom in your own awakened Heart, offers practices for tapping into inner peace and wisdom in

the midst of difficulty. So this is a rerelease of one of our most popular and best episodes that now that I look at it is over two years old, so it's about time you're here it it's with the wonderful Tara Brock. And the reason we're doing a re release this week is because our dear friend Christopher, who does all the voiceovers and the amazing audio production and editing of this show, is getting married, so we're busy

with all the preparation for that. So I hope you enjoy this interview, and if you want to give Chris some wedding wishes, send him an email at Forbes dot Chris at gmail dot com. Hi, Tara, Welcome to the show. It's lovely to be with you, Eric. I am very excited to have you on. I think I've been trying to arrange this for a while. When I started the show. You were one of the guests right away that I was like, I definitely want to get her on the show.

You're you're writing and your teachings have been a big influence on me and on several people that I am close with. So I'm really happy to have you. Thank you, thank you. So let's start, like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandfather father who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of

us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second. He looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work

that you do. And I know you know it because it was in one of your books. Yeah, it's a familiar one, and I remember it was coming out right after, uh, you know, the bombing of the World Trade Center and so on, and that was kind of one of the ones that was circulating. And I think what it means is that every one of us has the conditioning towards greed and aversion and aggression. You know, we all have that in our nervous system are kind of primitive limbit conditioning.

And we also each one of us has this um evolving brain and evolving consciousness that's capable of um unfathomable amounts of loving and of creativity and of presence. And so the question is, um, do we get hijacked and is our life run by the fear parts? Are do we have more increasing access to our our our highest potential? And so the parable says it's whicheveryone you feed, And

I would say that's partly accurate. And by that I mean it's really important to pay attention to and nourish our our hearts and to um bring to mind the goodness and other people and be very compassionate towards where they're suffering. And when the more primitive conditioning arises, which it does I think for every one of us every day, every single day. Yeah, when you have a judgment, that's a more primitive part of our conditioning. When that arises,

it's not about starving that wolf. It's more about bringing that into our awareness with interest and with care. So when the fearful wolf appears. Not to make it bad, it's it's just a frightened part of ourselves. But to not be not buy into the narrative, not buy into the narrative that the only way that people will do what I want is if I threaten them, are if I judge them, or you know, not buy into the narrative. Watch that part of ourselves with interest and with care,

so that we're not our identity doesn't get captured by it. Yeah, exactly. And I'd like to talk about clarifying that idea just a little bit, because in your work you talk a lot about being present with the emotions. You know, here is this situation, here is this emotion, being present with it and opening to it um at the same time. Also in in the Buddhist tradition and a lot of your work, we talk about the direction that we point our mind is going to be more of what we get.

If we think more about hostility, we get more more hostility. And I'm always interested in where's the balance between those things, what's the right way to tell I'm genuinely feeling and emotion, I'm going through what I what I need to go through, versus I'm telling myself a story or I'm taking a point of view that is painful and should be dropped.

I think the way you asked that question, Eric actually points to a response, which is that if you're paying attention to the storyline of you know, the repeating stories of um, somebody else is wrong and bad or I'm wrong and bad, then you're just gonna be perpetuating the cycle. The words whatever, where thoughts are going through have a

certain biochemistry, and we get stuck in that state. But if instead you actually come into the body and in a very unconditional and kind way open to the feelings and the energy and the body, then there's actual transformation. Then what happens is that there's a shift and awareness where you open into a larger sense of being and the emotions are currents in your ocean, but you're not

identified with them. So I would say whenever there's a strong, sticky charged emotion, that's the time it's asking for attention. And one of a great sage once said that if you if there's one question you ask yourself, it's what am I unwilling to feel? And it's the raw, sticky, vulnerable stuff we're unwilling to feel, and it's in the moment that we become willing that it no longer has so much control. It's like the some and say that when you begin to name a fear and then touch

into it, it's no longer controlling you. So I would say that that's a key element in healing and spiritual awakening. And sometimes it's described as you know, in the Ti bed and art, you see these animal headed goddesses that represent delusion and fear and hatred and so on, and you see them really at the gateway to the temple that you have to go through them to enter sacred space, and you see them around the circle of the mandala that you have to go through them to get really

to the place of stillness and peace. So that's one key domain in spiritual life. But then there's another one, which is to be able to remember and visualize and pray for and turn towards the light. In other words, it's already there in us. This are awakened potential is

already there. But there's a real value to remembering the goodness too on purpose, remembering what we love, remembering what we're grateful for, because we can get a habit we can get in this habit of being addicted to the suffering.

So I think that's kind of what you're pointing to, and that balancing of yes, b with the difficult emotions, feel, feel them in your body, and take time each day to remember what you're grateful for, or when you see something beautiful, pause and savor it, because we don't take in really sometimes the goodness and the beauty. We tend to kind of skim over it. We're so busily on our way somewhere else. Yeah. I love that whole whole description of it's kind of not one or the other,

it's it's it's both right exactly. And we had Rick Hanson on who I Know that you also know, and he you know, he talked a lot about that idea of taking in the good. Positive thinking. Sometimes is is presented as a panacea for a lot of things, and that's not what this is. This is just choosing there is good there at any time. You don't have to make it up. It's that which gets the most of our attention if we can to place it there. And so I love what you're saying because and Rick talks

about this a lot too. We do have our survival conditioning that negativity bias that gives us the habit of looking for what's wrong. And one of the things I've become aware of in the last decade or so is how often we're in a mindset where we think we have a problem, that there there's something we need to solve or figure out, or there's something that's wrong about what's happening right now and we need to change it.

And I have become very aware that in the moments that we stopped thinking of it as a problem and just say, oh, so this is what's happening. It's asking for my attention. We actually have a lot more access

to creativity, to empathy, to a real vitality. So it's an interesting inquiry and I invite your listeners to consider this of you know, if right now there's not a problem, really watch the moment, like I mean, if there's really no problem, if there's nothing wrong, and we can get without a taste of freedom to not add the negativity bias in Yeah, that's such a powerful idea. I was asked that question once by a by a meditation teacher,

like what is here? You know, just pretend for a minute that nothing is wrong, and you may you may not believe it, but just pretend that everything is perfect right in this moment, you know, there's nothing you have

to do or solve. What is it like? And there is a you know, I had a pretty profound experience in that moment when I kind of went whoa um, and I think that second thing is A guest recently referred to our brains as a problem factory, like if you know, once one is gone, it just create it's another.

And I've noticed that for myself. If I'm not if I'm not consciously working on being more present and more aware, it's just I just go from one to the next and I'll probably find one because that's what my brain is used to doing, is working on problems. Yeah, It's almost like if we're not being vigilant and you know, tossing around a problem, we feel like there's something that's going to blindside us. So we're always you know, in that kind of defensive mode, that sense it around the corner,

something is going to be too much to handle. So it becomes very powerful when we challenge that because in a way, if we're living all the time like around the corner, something's too much. We're not really bringing our wholeheartedness and our tenderness and our clarity to what's right here.

And so this idea of coming back to the present moment, you know that that being the one of the solutions to to a lot of what troubles us is one of those things that is easy to say, um, but it's hard to do at least I found certainly earlier and still sometimes like I would come back to the present moment, but there wouldn't I wouldn't know what was here, And then my brain would be back in two seconds, and there I would be again, and I would come

back to the present moment and again same thing. It's like, I'm here, but wait, there's nothing compelling enough in this moment. Is your perspective that that's really just a thing of training, that the formal meditation process and the formal process of awareness allows us to come back to see the deeper nuances in the present moment so that we're able to stay there longer. Yeah, I think you're saying in a really um powerful way. I'm one. One teacher said, you

know too. When asked to describe the world. His response was lost in thought and we spent so many moments in a virtual reality where we're in some trance of thinking, we don't actually have that much experience staying in our sense is and if if you ask, if you ask yourself, right this moment, how a where am I right this moment? Of the energy inside my hands, are my feet? Are the feeling in my heart? It's like for most of us were mostly in the head and in our ideas

of the world. So the training really of coming into the moment is coming into our senses. So if we can pause and start practicing bringing the attention down into the body and feel the throat and the chests and the belly, and get the knack of staying a bit more than all the nuances of what we call presents start coming alive because in the space where we're not lost in thought, really the light of awareness begins to

shine through. This is easier said than done. I think that's one of the things that can be discouraging for people is you can do it and then it's kind of done, and then you feel like you have to keep doing it. And you have a line that I love in which you say that um meditation is a setup for feeling deficient unless we respectfully acknowledge the strength of our conditioning to race away from presents. It's the truth.

And one thing I've noticed is that the more we have either trauma or major wounding early on, the more the strategy of dissociating and leaving our body is pronounced. So for those that have had that kind of really difficult early childhood or whatever, it's even harder. It's even harder because the rawness feels in the body, feels intolerable.

So it takes a tremendous self compassion. I probably rate self compassion as the single quality that most can serve us, uh in meditating and in getting more intimate with each other and whatever matters to us in our lives. Yeah, that is such an important piece. And I think that recognition that this is a really challenging endeavor and it doesn't happen quickly and unfortunately, right I think we all wish we had some silver bullet to give that would

be like, Okay, now everything is better. But this constant coming back to awareness into the moment into our body can can take you know, a great deal of time to to get better at and I think it's so important because I hear people say all the time, well, I can't meditate, I'm not any good at meditating it, And I'm sure you hear that that also, it's that recognized in that like, ay, there isn't any goal and be that's the human condition and it's okay, exactly right.

It really helps to know that we're not alone in it, that coming into the present moment is hard for everyone, but it's also important to know that it's really possible. One of the challenges is if we've just been introduced to one kind of meditation or another that isn't a match for what really is a good gateway for us,

then we can get discouraged. So when I teach, I and I offer, you know, I like hundreds and hundreds of guided meditations, I offer a lot of different gateways in because for some people it's going to be through a very gentle, repeated scanning of the body, and for another person it might be through a heart meditation that helps us remember and trust our own goodness. And yet for another person, listening to sounds, just just listening to

sounds helps to quiet the mind. And then for another person there's a certain kind of breathing that actually calms the nervous system and makes it easier to quiet and collect and arrive. So part of what I really invite is experiment, experiment, and trust that there's something in us that wants to settle, and we will if we find

kind of the pathway that's most of a match for us. Well, you lead me perfectly into the next question, um, because I'm one of those people that the breath doesn't work, and that's what I tried year after year after year, and you know, never really became a consistent meditator. And then when I heard about sound and the body, all of a sudden kind of everything changed. But my questions,

I agree. I think experimentation is great. But what I don't have a good handle on, and that I find myself wrestling with, is Okay, I'm going to meditate today, what am I gonna do? You know? Should we pick the one that that we like and just sort of stay on that path? There is there some degree of trying different ones. That's what I'm you know, kind of kind of going through now, is should I just keep doing the same thing or there's several different approaches that

I seem to get results. With UM, and it ends up being you know, I try and make that decision before I go into meditation, obviously, but sometimes I'm in the middle of meditation, this isn't as good. Maybe I should be trying that kind or that kind which is obviously profoundly against the point. UM. Yeah, So what are your thoughts on that. That's a that's a great question.

So to two levels of response, And one is I've now watched people over probably four decades, um people all different kinds of spiritual traditions and meditations and so on. And one thing I've noticed the difference between people that really keep on evolving and unfolding in a creative way and those that either plateau out or quit. It's not it doesn't have anything to do with what particular meditation or practice they're doing, whether it's tai chi chi, gung

zog chans and whatever. It has to do with UM staying connected with a very sincere quality of aspiration, really sincere about waking up and when somebody that's the longing. There's a passion about truth, really what's the nature of reality? And there's a passion about loving without holding back, like I just really want this heart to be free that and and there's a coming back again and again to that aspiration. There's a certain intuition then about finding our

ways to the practices that serve. There's less inclination to pull away from our practice just because it's challenging. There's less inclination to hop around because we're restless, but there's less inclination to stick with something out of duty when

we might be experimenting. So it's really very individual. I mean, if you're the kind of person that is restless and it's going to it's kind of always needs to sample something else on the menu, then I'd encourage you to let some roots go down and just gain some real familiarity with some meditation practice that you know in some

ways helping you become more present. If, on the other hand, you're a person that that doggedly just always stays with one thing, or doesn't you know, just somebody tells you something, you just keep doing it, take up a chance and an experiment um for you, it sounds like you know you you might want to have a weave that you do that includes something that's you know is going to keep on um. Letting go of armoring around the heart, but also bringing clarity and then keep going deeper and

deeper with that. Um So it's it's it's always going to be case by case, but there are some guidelines that we can kind of stay alert to. The deepest thing, though, is your intention. And I really encourage us all to at the beginning of every whether it's an interview like this, are meditation, sitting, or being with somebody, to just remember what about this really matters to me? Has our heart

is a compass, it will show us where to go. Yeah, that's great advice, and it's something I took from reading your book again in preparation for this interview that I don't think I had landed on before, which is to set an intention why am I? I find that helpful in keeping a steady meditation practice for sure, is remembering why am I doing this? You know, it's not another chore on the list, It's there's a reason that I'm

I'm doing this. We will not stay with meditation unless there's a certain degree of fun and pleasure in it. For us, it just won't work. If you're grim, it just won't work. So I know for myself, part of what's going on is I really want to follow my interests and an interest not like conceptual, but I want

to stay where it feels alive. And I also there has to be a certain amount of pleasure in it, So weaving in the heart practices UM really bringing a live sensation and whatever helps to feel us most vibrant in it. UM play around because humans don't keep doing things unless they feel gratified. That's right. It's that elephant and the writer analogy. The writer is your conscious brain and it's trying to direct things, and the elephant is

your emotional side. And you know, the elephant is only going to go where the writer wants it to go, so long if it doesn't want to go right, you get you got to get the elephant engaged in the game. And that's the emotional piece of it, the reward and the enjoyment and the feeling of satisfaction exactly. So one of the things that I wanted to explore a little bit more is there's this idea we talked about it right out of the gate, about dropping into the body,

about feeling our emotions, UM, dealing with difficult emotions. But a lot of people that I know and myself firmly included in this camp. Depression is one of the things that we that I tend to wrestle with more. And I get this question from listeners of a fair amount, which is, I don't feel much of anything, So what am I dropping into? I don't have a strong emotion.

I'm working with. What I've basically got is numbness. And I drop into my body and I pay attention to my hand and honestly doesn't feel like there's much going on there. What's the way that we work with with that in order to deal with that condition or that situation. I'm really glad you brought up depression because I've had many people say, you know, I'm either that I try to get in touch with it and it's a numb are.

When I can get in touch with it, I sink and it's like it's just like an endless, endless sinking downward. It's like it doesn't if there's no real insight or anything refreshing that comes out of it, I just feel more depressed. So there's a few things, you know, and for all of us, the deepest place of transformation is

when there's just pure awareness. Awareness is what wakes us up, and there are all these different skillful means that help us to be um positioned in a way that we can be more aware and for depression, the skillful means really often have to do with exercising and engaging our body and mind with uh nature, with the elements and

with other people. Getting enough sleep and then being physically and emotionally engage is a skillful means if there's depression, to activate enough so then as you bring the attention inward, you actually can connect with the aliveness. Yep. I think that's such good advice. And I think for me it's that active movement and nature that are the two best

antidepressants I know me to to anti anxiety too. Yeah, And of course the challenge that can make depressions at your monster is that it's that the energy to do anything is so lacking. It's like this sort of catch twenty two, like if I, if you do something, you'll feel better, but I can't. You know, I don't have the energy. And so for me, I think over the years it's become a I've made it into just sort of a habit that like when I start to feel that way, like I just I have learned to propel

myself into motion. Um, depression hates a moving target. Is the is the saying I love. It's a very good saying, and it helps to have other people, um, you know, on the team with you. In other words, sometimes whether it's having a running partner or walking partner or whatever, UM engagement. Depression needs engagement, and it needs one other thing, which is it needs uh to be forgiven, because we whether it's depression or shame or whatever, we take it

personally like it's my depression or my fear. And then that brings more of a sense of something's wrong with me, which actually deepens the cycle. So to add to engagement, commit and this I'm speaking to all of us, commit to truly forgiving the presence of the difficult emotion. It's not our fault. It's like depression is not our fault.

It whether it's genetic or epigenetic having to do with early childhood stuff or the culture, it's just not like we you know, got born and pressed the button saying this is the motion I wanted to be living with. You know, we didn't choose it. And so there's something about forgiveness. It actually creates space. Like I'll often I do it with anger. You know, I have anger will come up and I'll have this idea of, oh, I shouldn't be angry. I mean, it's not a spiritual, you know, feeling.

And one of the first things I'll do is go, okay, forgiven, forgiven. I send that message into the anger like it's it's just another weather system. It's coming, just like the outer weather. And when I forgive the anger, I'm not so identified with it, and I can then just feel it as sensations and not believe the dialogue that goes with it, and it comes and it goes in a much more

wholesome way. So forgive the depression. Yeah, I think that's such a big one and such an important one, and the parable of the I don't know if it's a parable, but the Buddhist teaching of the second Arrow is um one that I talked about on the show all the time, because it's that I'm feeling bad about feeling bad that we can actually work with, right, Like, it's very hard to not feel depressed, right, there's things we can do, but I do feel like we have more control over

what we layer on top of that, you know, the and you talk about this in your book, and it kind of leads into that next question, which is your first book was really about um accepting ourselves the way we are and the suffering that that that happens to ourselves, and your second book is more a little bit about, Hey, there's going to be suffering out in the world, that's an inevitable fact, you know, or or pain that comes in from the outside world. But how do we deal

with that in the most skillful way? And that's one of the things I love about the Buddhist teachings is it really normalizes for me things are not going to be going well in life, like difficult things happen. That's part of being human. And to your point, it's not our fault and it's not our you know, it's not a failure. But what are some of the more skillful means we can use in you know, when when life presents this with things that we really wish it wouldn't. Yeah, No,

it's a it's a powerful question. And that is why I wrote True Refuge. I had in my own life, Um, I got really sick and the spiral of sickness went on and on, so I was going pretty downhill, and that's an example of okay, stuff happens, and um, you know, I went from being very very athletic to not being able to even walk up a slight incline. I am now much much better than I was, but for about eight years I didn't know what was going to happen.

And what that did was it forced me to find a way to get my arms around sickness, death, dying. At the same time I lost both parents and you know, so all the encounters and the teachings both in Buddhism, and I think it's really all the perennial teachings UM basically point us towards finding the awareness and heart that's really timeless. It's it's it's accessible to each of us that helps us to rest in something large enough so

we have room for the waves. And that can sound abstract, and yet if you've been with somebody that's dying and you've sensed how the only thing that's big enough for that dying is the loving that's there. That's the only thing that allows It still hurts, but there's space for it.

And that's the way it is with everything, that there are things that are still going to hurt us tremendously But if we find access to that what I sometimes think of as the fearless heart, the heart that is big enough for fear, the big enough for the losses and the grief, then we have a way to take refuge away, to come home to beingness that can move through things with a sense of tenderness and open heartedness

and grace even when it's really really difficult. That's the essential message and true refuge my second book, And really how to then find our way to that timeless heart? How do we become president enough and open enough and courageous enough to really be with the life. That's year. I'm going to ask a question that I don't think there's really an answer for, but I'm always I'm fascinated by it, and I find more and more people asking me this question. Um, so, which is what is the

meaning of life? Or why are we here? Or and and I'm just curious to get your your take on that. I don't actually believe you have the answer. Um. If you do, though, I'm very excited to hear it. Um. You know, that's not the kind of question I pose in my own inquir'es. I don't pose the why questions so much. You know why are we here or whatever? But a similar question is what matters the most to me?

Are to ask and and that that has a similar feeling tone to it, And I could say, I could say, you know for myself what matters and sometimes debscribed as the two wings of awareness that we really need both to be free. What matters is deeply understanding truth or understand reality, not not like in a mental way, but a lived way. And and the other side of that

is loving fully. And so if I had to say, what's our purpose or anything, it's to love fully, to totally inhabit are being in a way that we um feel are belonging to all other beings and can express that, really express that authentically in the way we live our lives. And do you think that you don't think about and ask those questions because you have an experience of being alive that feels meaningful. The word meaning sometimes trips me and others up because it has it's a cognitive word.

So for me, Matt, what matters is more uh mattering, what I long for, what what my heart cares about, has a more visceral experience than meaning, which is a little more mental. So maybe just that I'm going at

it with a more eminent quality of inquiry. I'm not sure. Yeah, I like that word matter, because the the analogy I've been thinking about lately is, you know, intellectually, I'll never have any idea why this is and what's happening, and and I could never intellectually convince you of, you know, why something was important. But if I walked out my door right now and I saw a dog laying in front of me suffering, I would know your word that it mattered that dog not suffer. I could never explain

it intellectually. There would be no way I could be like, well, you could be like, well, there's billions of dogs. I mean, we could go through the whole, you know, but you could never talk me out of in that moment that that dog suffering mattered. And for me, that was a big turning point when I went, oh, I'm never going to answer this question intellectually, I'm never going to get there. But I can feel kind of and I think it's exactly what you just said in a more eloquent way

than I had been saying. It is that what matters is what connects us to those bigger things, and it's a felt sense, not in intellectual sets. And the reason I asked you if you thought you didn't ask those questions is that the more I have moved into that part of my life and in that way, the less I've had those questions also. And I'm just kind of curious because I do get them, you know, from people. I'm sure you do too, and it's it's a genuine yearning, but it seems to come up less in people who

are truly engaged in life in a deeper way. Well, that's why when I get a conceptual question, I reframe it in a way that allows a person to discover what is true for them in a more visceral way. And that's why I shift the word meaning to matters. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You use the word trance a lot. You talked about different types of trances, but let's talk about what what you mean in the

use of that word in general. When I talk about trance, I'm talking about a kind of narrow, distorted, contorted uh experience of reality and it and it narrows because we're there's an overlay of mental conceptual you know, words, ideas, interpretations, and um so to step out of a trance means to step out of our mental interpretations and into reality, back into our bodies and our hearts and what we're

directly experiencing. And the biggest way we have a trance in our lives, the most immediate, is that we move around with an ongoing storyline about moa, about who I am, what I need to do, what's wrong with me? What what's going to make a difference, and so on. We it's like our world is very narrowed into this self conscious, self centered narrative, and it's not that we're bad for it.

It's more that it's just keeping us from a much more mysterious and vibrant experience of being this so the way out of trance is just to recognize, oh, okay, I'm living right now in a thought realm, you know, and thoughts are like a map. We need them. In other words, it's it's what allows humans to be the most dominant species on planet Earth. It's you know, surviving and thriving and so on. We need them. But if that's the end of development, then we're stuck in a

conceptual world. There's a further evolution beyond a self living inside thoughts and that's a self that's actually awake and awareness. Yeah. I like the way that you have addressed it before, because I hear a lot of Buddhist teaching saying that the sense of a separate self is an illusion, and I like the way that you sort of describe it as well, it's not exactly an illusion, but it's only

it's a very small part of the picture. It's a very limited way of viewing it, because I think when people hear it's an illusion, they go, well, it feels so real. And I like that instead of saying what it is, giving a context of it is as it's not the only way to view reality. One of the phrases that I find most valuable when you think of um, let's say I have a story about my elf and then I'm falling short and I say to somebody, well, if you're believing that is really is that belief really true?

And they say, well, it feels really true. It feels like I'm deficient, I'm defective failure. So the phrase I like is real but not true. And the reason I like that phrase is that the belief I'm deficient, I'm defective, it's a real story in our minds, and it feels real in our body, So it's real in that way. It's it's happening, the thoughts happening, the feelings are happening.

It's real, but it's not the truth of existence. In other words, it's not that that's what's actually the living reality. In other words, it's just an idea in our mind and a feeling in our body. And to begin to get that opens up a little space so we can sense there's something bigger and maybe more living reality than our belief about ourselves. It helps us to shake some of the most limiting experiences that really they bring suffering in our lives. That's really powerful. I love that one.

I had not heard that before, and I think that is a very useful tool. We're nearing the end of our time here. But I want to ask you. You say that we all have our own ways of distancing ourselves from reality or going into trance or you know, call it, whichever of these things are. We all have our own ways for doing that that are that are kind of individual, but that the process of waking up is universal. Can you tell me a little bit more

about that? And then I'd like to maybe circle it back to some of our earlier conversation around how for each of us, some of the things on the path, they're going to be different, you know, some of its individualized. So what's universal and what parts are kind of ours to tailor to what we need. We all have strategies of trying to control things. You know, every one of us comes. I sometimes think of it like, um, we come into this world and conditions are not always cooperative.

So we have you know, parents that might not see us for who we are, might not give us unconditional love. We have a culture that's addictive and violence, so we all put on a space suit. We all are trying to navigate best as we can, and the space suit is our ego control systems to defend ourselves, to appear good, to try to produce sometimes to pretend something so others

don't attack us too. We have addictive qualities to numb and tooth, So we all have our strategies and they're all ways of trying to control things so we don't have to feel bad, so we can feel more comfortable. So it's universal that we have ways of leaving the present moment, and there's all sorts of particulars on your strategies versus mind. Some people are more have withdrawing strategies and others are more aggressive. They're all space suits strategies.

But the universal is that when we have those strategies, we get identified with the strategies, with our ego control system, and we forget who's looking through the mask. We forget the consciousness right now that's listening to these words, and we forget the tenderness and the heart that's really that really cares about living and loving. So there's a forgetting, and that's universal. If they're suffering, it's because you've forgotten really who you are. You're identified with a more limited

version of being with the space suit cell. And so the way back first is just to begin to notice how that's happening. Okay, so what happens when I feel threatened? Just to begin to notice our strategies without judging them, just to notice. And and the very simple, you know, strategy for coming back is just to name what we notice, okay, defending afraid, you know, often obsessions, Just to name it and then just very gently kind of invite ourselves back

into the moment, into the body, into the heart. That's kind of a universal of noticing the way we strategically dissociated and gently bringing ourselves back. Another universal is that this is from the Bodhist for path, you know, the path of the awakening being is it has to be

with compassion. So one of the things I teach most regularly is when you're suffering, just to put your hand on your heart and offers some message of kindness inwardly, because in the moment that there's a gesture of kindness, even if it's just the intention to be kind something, and the armoring of the separate self begins to soften, and we begin to get a little more of a taste of who we are beyond that that space itself. We begin to sense the purity of our hearts and

trust that a little more. So. Those are two examples of the ways of coming back that our universal to notice the strategy, come back into the bouddy and feel what's right here, and to bring a gesture of kindness to that moment. I think that's a beautiful place for us to wrap up the interview. Tara, thank you so much again. I encourage everybody to check out your talks and your books and everything You've been a genuine inspiration to me and I've I've really gotten a lot out

of this conversation, and so have I. Eric. You're wonderful to talk to. I love your inquiry and thank you for what you're offering. I feel like you're offering something that really invites others into this whole stream of waking up. So many blessings. Also, Okay, take care of all right you do? Bye bye. You can learn more about Tara Brock and this podcast at one you feed dot net. Slash Rock