Susan Piver on The Four Noble Truths of Love

arises Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not

just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Susan Piver, who is here for the second time. She's a New York Times best selling author of nine books, including the award winning How Not to Be Afraid of Your Life

and the Wisdom of a Broken Heart. Susan has been a practicing Buddhist since and graduated from a Buddhist seminary in two thousand four. Her work has been featured on The Oprah Show, Today, CNN, and in The New York Times, Wall Street, Turn Money, and others. Her new book is The Four Noble Truths of Love, Buddhist Wisdom for Modern Relationships. Hi, Susan, Welcome back to the show. Him so glad to be here.

Thank you. Yes, we have had you on before. I don't remember which episode number it was, but it's been a while. But you have a new book out that we will explore in depth. But let's start like we always do with the parable. In the Parable, there's a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always

at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops, and she thinks about it for a second, looks up at her grandfather, and she says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well,

thank you, and I love that parable. And as you were saying it, I thought about it in a different way than I ever had before, which is I was thinking about the bad wolf and the I'm a longtime Buddhist practitioner, as I think you know, and in certain schools of Buddhism, there's this idea that afflictive emotions have a positive flip side, And so I was thinking of what is the flip side of hatred, ingreeed, and anger the three qualities you named, and what is the vulnerable

part in those qualities, and how can we touch those vulnerable parts instead of running in fear from the bad wolf? Can we somehow uncover the goodness of the bad wolf? In some way. I love that idea, and it makes me think of something that you say in the book that sort of caught my attention, and it was that underneath other emotions like anger or rage and fear and all that is sadness, and that sadness is a more

tender emotion that we can work with. And what I wanted to ask you about that is that my experience seems to be that sadness is the emotion that is relatively easy for me to access, and that certainly I have had people say before that my depressive condition looks more like anger toward turned inward. And so I'm just kind of interested in what you think about about what I just said, because they're kind of different approaches to that thing, are a different way of looking at sadness

versus anger. I think certain people have a tendency towards one or the other, or neither. You and I apparently both tend towards a depressive response to unhappiness. Some people respond with anger, but just their their first response, and I think in both cases a similar emotion underlies the response, which is some kind of fear or some kind of being hurt. Because the truth is we're we're vulnerable, and we're fragile, and we're sensitive, I think is a better

word than fragile. And when something upsets us, we want to turn it into something we can work with as as opposed to just feeling the pain directly. And anger is something you can work with, is something you can turn on others, It's something that you can express. It obliterates everything, actually, And I just want to differentiate between depression and sadness because depression, I think does something similar

as anger does. Anger turns it outward, and like you said, depression turns it inward, but it's also sort of calcifies it. I think of depression as a kind of calcified sadness. In both cases, anger and depression could be thought of. This is my experience. I'm not a therapist, but this is my observation as unfelt sadness, because sadness makes you feel so well honorable. I once someone was interviewing Gloria

Steinam the Feminist Icon. I think I mentioned this in the book even I'll never forget what she said when an interviewer asked her she was depressed over the recent death of her husband. They've only been married a few years and she said, I'm paraphrasing, I'm not depressed, I'm sad. And the interviewer said, what's the difference, and she said, the most beautiful thing. When you're depressed, nothing has any meaning,

and when you're sad, everything does. So when we turned towards sadness, we can enter the realm of reality, I think a little bit more directly than when we turn it into something else, whether it's anger or depression. Yeah, I've always loved that quote, and I think it's interesting because my willingness to be sad. I think you're probably right, is a more recent phenomenon in my life, and probably as I was younger, that wasn't something I was I

was looking to do. I like that idea of calcification. That's a good word for what depression feels like. It's it's almost like this really tight calcification. I like that. But let's turn to your book, which is called The Four Noble Truths of Love, Buddhist wisdom for Modern relationships. And as most listeners know, the Buddha expounded four Noble truths about life, and you have reinterpreted those two relationships. And so I thought, why don't we just start with

talking about what those four noble truths are. The four noble truths of love, just as you suggest, are based on the Buddhist Buddha's very first teachings upon attaining enlightenment. He taught four things, and the entire Buddhist path is based on these four things. And at one point in my marriage we had hit a really bad period. And anybody who's been in a relationship knows what this is like. Everything seems okay and then suddenly you can't get along.

And we were in one of those phases where whatever one did, the other one took offense, and we couldn't tell why. We argued about the silliest things. We couldn't get along, and this went on for months. One day I was sitting at my desk. I was crying because I didn't know what to do. I had thought we loved each other, and I thought I still did, but it seemed that there was nothing but coldness between us. So I was crying, and I had this thought, upon wondering,

I don't even know where to begin. I had this thought that said, begin at the beginning, at the beginning of foreign noble truths, and as a Buddhist practitioner, like I say, that meant something to me, but I wasn't sure what, because what do the four noble truths have to do with my relationship? So I sat and thought about it, and this is what I came up with. The first noble truth of love is that relationships are uncomfortable. They just are. If you've never met the person you're

about to go on a blind date, it's uncomfortable. What if they don't like me, or what if they do like me, or what if I repeat all my old relationship patterns and you have met the person, and it's

already very uncomfortable. And if you fall in love, I mean that's heavenly, literally heavenly, but it's also oddly uncomfortable because it's so intense, and every moment is so fraught, and every look and every word could have some extraordinary kind of meaning, and you can spend a lot of time wondering what that expression meant and worrying that this is just going to disappear. And then if you're in

a long term relationship, it just so happens. Nobody really told me this that there's a lot of irritation people have habits. People do things that trigger you, and they do them over and over again, and you just sort of live with this sense of it's just hard to live with another person, even if it's you know, there's certainly matters of degree, but it's just it's hard. So

that that's the first noble truths. Relationships are uncomfortable. I want to ask you a question here about this because this is a point that I am struggling with in my own life, and it's it's this. I get the general idea that we should you resistance causes us a great deal of trouble. Right now. I am somebody that that wrestles with being irritated, particularly by sounds and things

that are around me. And I have this happen semi often where I will find myself very irritated, and then I find myself thinking I should not be irritated, and I do this. I go back and forth between these two things. One is that I try and go just allow the sound to be whatever it is, just let it be right. So I'm trying to decrease my resistance there and just let it go right. So that's one approach, and then I sometimes that works, and often it doesn't, and then I go, Okay, what I'm going to try

and do then is just let my irritation be. And I never know which of those is more effective, and maybe the answer is the one that works at that moment. But I'm just kind of curious on your thoughts because that's a dilemma that shows up often in when you're when you're talking about not resisting what's happening. So I guess just your thoughts on that, yeah, and I share that. By the way, I'm auditorially very sensitive, and if two people start talking to me at once, I actually feel

temper flare. They're not doing anything wrong, but it does something to my nervous system and that is uncomfortable. So I would say my approach and is if you get irritated, it does not help to become irritated by the fact that you're irritated. You're just still irritated. You just change the object. So I would say, be irritated. But the key here is without the story of the irritation, because it's the story that actually causes more pain and suffering

then the original the presenting issue. So feel the irritation, like what does it feel like in your body. That's where most people feel it, like their chest gets tight or there they feel their shoulders hunch. Some people feel it in the environment, like the actual environment feels different. It feels combative or dark or whatever. It might be. Placed your attention on that, and when a story tries to arise, it says, well, if only people would be quieter,

or I shouldn't be irritated. Those are all thoughts. Just put those aside to turn towards the felt sense of the irritation that tends to be more expeditious and also kinder to yourself. That part that doesn't involve any condemnation or you know, self improvement. You just feel it and eventually it dissipates. Yeah, I think that's really good advice.

It's funny. That is the one emotion I've I've just recognized this very recently, but it is the one emotion that I am absolutely the most uncomfortable with because I think, you know, sadness is sadness even anger, you know, it's not one of my most comfortable. But usually if I'm angry, there's a reasonable, at least in my own brain, a reason, right. I could say, like, well, this person is doing X

or y and this causes that. But with irritation, it's just this, like you said, the person isn't doing anything. I mean, they're doing absolutely nothing wrong, and I'm seething, you know, and it and it's so it's the one that I am uncomfortable with because it feels completely unjustified to me. And I guess, you know, I get that my emotions have to be justified. Is that the root of part of that problem. I've just I really like,

in the last week or two, have noticed this. I don't think I've ever been able to put it quite together what happens to me in those situations and how much worse I might be making it by the storyline, which is this is not okay. Well, I have something that I want to suggest, and this is my theory based on nothing, which should be the title of my next book. I think could be the title of all

my books. But my theory based on nothing, is that the irritation that you feel and that I feel, it's not the same as being angry at someone for ignoring you or hurting you or doing something that you think is wrong. It comes from a different part of the organism. There's a psychological and emotional heart of someone doing something upsetting to you. That's not the case here. I feel like this is a limbic system response in your nervous system just fires and then you attach a story to it.

But I think sound, and you're I mean, look what we're doing right now. Your life so much of it, I imagine, revolves around sound, and there's a threat. I think your olympic system perceives a threat. And so when I get irritated like that, I try to think. Not, of course, I think, well I shouldn't be irritated, or why can't I be a nicer person, But I also try to think, well, something some although it does not make any sense, and there is nothing threatening me right now,

so part of me perceives a threat. So can I turn towards that part and just go everything's okay, sweetie, let's just relax. You read about like highly sensitive people, and that's the one thing like when I read about highly sensitive people, I went that one is me right there.

When they say that like that, incidental noises just I really do have a very difficult time if like there's a TV on in one room in another room, or somebody's talking, or I just when there's multiple sounds coming at me, I get, like you said, I almost just quickly get angry. Yeah. I think we had just finished the first noble truth of relationships and we're about to hit the second. Yes, yes, relationships are uncomfortable, as the

first noble truth because they never stabilize. That's something else no one ever tells you. And the second noble truth is that thinking they should be comfortable and stable is actually what causes them to be uncomfortable and unstable. In other words, instability and change. That's that's a part of life. There's no feeling that is solid. Love and connection are always pulsing in and out of existence. They don't it's

not solid. So okay, we have to live with that, we have to figure out a way to deal with that. But then we think, well, there's a problem here that we have to fix. And when we fix this problem, either something small like you're always late, please be on time, which may not be that small for some people, or something really big like I don't know, we don't seem to have much romance in our life, or I don't know,

whatever you would want to call it. And if we could solve that problem, everything would be okay, and that's not true. We should all try to all of our problems, and we're not just say the status quo with things that are upsetting. But the idea that if we solve this we will be happy is I think the root of the most difficult discomfort. I just want to read something you wrote because I think it says this very eloquently. But we're always trying to get rid of the problems

in our relationships. This is only human. However, expecting that upon doing so, you will finally be happy can cause a lot of confusion. Thinking that a relationship will finally come to rest in a peaceful place is actually what makes it uncomfortable. When that expectation is softened, an enormous space opens up. Yeah, an enormous space opens up, is the thing, because we stop holding each other sort of hostage.

I think two something some idea about the way things should be, and turned towards each other, which is the third novel truth of love, That meeting the discomfort and instability together is love. So instead of like, okay, you need to perfect this, you need to change that. I need to work on this. Okay, that's cool, all that's fine. I know. I'm not trying to say that that's there's

anything wrong with that. But when things happen in a relationship that caused pain, instead of looking at each other like what did you do to cause this? Or what did I do to cause this, to turn away from each other and look at the problem itself, look at the sort of weather front that you are in currently, and to see it together. Oh look, now we don't like each other, Now we really do. Now I like you, but you don't seem to like me. I'm not saying

all of those are equally good, because they're not. But to look at the cycling and be on the ride together, I would say that is loving a loving thing to do. Yeah, and I want to read something else that you say about that, because I think that one is so they're all powerful, but that one really resonates with me. Um to that idea, and you say, what if instead of looking at each other accusingly, you shifted your gaze to

the conflict itself together? What if instead of telling the other how they need to change so that this will never happen again, you could look at the problem as a kind of third entity that somehow landed in your house and is sitting on the couch next to you,

And I just think that can be so transformative. Another way to say that, in a slightly different way is that like you guys are now on the same team and it's you as a team against the problem, or you know, looking at the problem right, and just that metaphor of like, okay, we're back on the same team. Um. I've just found that one to be really very helpful myself, and it's also the sort of thing that I've seen

really transform a lot of other people. So I just wanted to read that because I just think it's such a powerful thing. That's awesome, And I love the way you said it that we're on the same team. That's exactly the spirit of it. Yeah, it's so free. It doesn't mean that you don't have the problem, doesn't mean that doesn't hurt. It just means that you're on the same team, just like you say. So. The fourth noble truth is that there's a way to do all of this.

The Buddhist force noble truth is called the eightfold path, right view, right intention, and so on. What I made up because I want everyone to know I made this up. This is these teachings are in no sutra or contra. These are my interpretation, so they must be vetted very carefully. The fourth novel Truth of Love is that there's a threefold path and it is based on the sort of qualities that one cultivates in a sitting meditation practice. And it's one of the reasons why I think meditation and

love are such natural allies. So the three sort of steps on, well, how do you actually do these things? And that sounds like a good idea, how do you do it? The first step is called precision, like you have to create use some sense of precision to create a foundation for your relationship, for your meditation practice. In meditation practice, the precision is that you focus on your breath or whatever your object is, but in most cases it's the breath, and that that establishes the foundation for

your meditation. If you're not trying to place attention on the breath, and of course it's strays and cool you bring it back, you're not meditating, you're doing something else. So what is the corollary in a relationship that if you're not doing those things, even though you may be in the same house together, you're not having a relationship. The precision here is two have good manners. I know that may sound kind of superficial, but I don't mean

no which work to use. I mean be cognizant of the other person's presence, think of them, develop some awareness of them, and then some idea about what might be helpful to them, loving to them, kind to them, or that you don't want to do those things because you're mad at them, but at least you still have the awareness. Good manners as a very profound gesture of compassion, I think. And then also, of course, precision involves honesty doesn't mean

blurting what you think whenever you think it. Skillful honesty means knowing the truth yourself and then knowing when you don't know it and so shutting up or I'm not trying to make something up. So if you can't have good manners, meaning thoughtfulness and you can't be honest, I don't think you can have a relationship. You can have something else, but I don't think you can have a relationship. Yeah.

I was really struck by that in the book about good manners, because I've often felt like good manners are really important, but I've never been able to articulate it like and again we're not talking about which fork to use, but you said, the ground level of good manners maybe among the most important of the qualities of person can have that make a successful relationship. True good manners are

far from superficial. There's one that you're really paying attention to the other person and showing evidence of that in the way you act and speak. And I just I love that because, like I said, I've always had this feeling about like that's really important, but I could never

really articulate it. I think it's hugely important, and it's great that you have that sensitivity to good manners because honestly, I think of all the qualities you can bring to a relationship to make it successful, you know, you might think, oh, well, self knowledge or compassion or good sense of human or whatever. I don't know, but honestly, I think good manners is

the most important thing. It's certainly one of those things that, um, if you don't have it may not you know, I don't know, you know, ranking things in importance, but it's certainly a baseline qualification for it to work. It seems like, you know, it's like one of those foundational skills absolutely. And again we're not talking about the fork, as we both said. We were talking earlier before this, and I told you I ever broken foot, and it's it's not

a big deal. But at the same time, you can't do very much because you can't walk and your hands are engaged in moving your body on crutches or in a scooter or whatever. So I can't really cook food. It's really irritating. Um So when my husband thinks of that when he's coming home and plans something, knowing that I have this, I cannot prepare the food because I work at home. So I often do that anyway that to me is and then make some plan for that because I just find that to be so loving. And

so that's what I mean by good manners. Thinking of the other person and making some accommodation, some space for them in your actions and your words. I think it's really loving. So the second piece here is called openness. And in your meditation practice, if you have one, you sit and you place your attention on your breath and then that's it. You don't try to do anything else.

You just allow yourself to be as you are. You open to yourself when you're speedy, when you're relaxed, when you're boring, when you're violent, you know in your mind you've experienced all of that. You make room for yourself in this very un American way of just being with yourself as you are and in a relationship that translates to something quite shocking. I was quite surprised to find this eric that, oh there's another person here. This relationship

isn't just about me. But openness here means considering the other person as having at least equal importance to yourself in the relationship. And it's easy for people that are very self sacrificing to think that means they should be more self sacrificing. I really don't mean that you should put yourself second. I do not mean that at all. I just mean to see, oh, we both are important here. It doesn't mean so me too. I'm important and so

are you. And having that willingness to look at the other person not as a a vice that you have somehow are trying to craft in the name of your own happiness, but as a as a being who you're sharing space with, sharing life with, feelings with a date with to open to them as they are. Of course, that is a very loving thing to do. And the third piece is called going beyond, which is evoked in a meditation practice when you notice you're absorbed in thought,

which is fine, it's not a big deal. You're not trying to stop thinking when you're meditating. Yeah, you get absorbed in thought. You see the notice that some kind of light goes off, and you notice that and you let go. You let go, and when you let go, there's a space and you come back, you come back to your breath. In meditation practice, and you are constantly putting down conventional thought to return to a felt experience of the present moment, which is called the spiritual path.

And it deepens every time you let go of thought to come back to the present. Something deepens in a relationship. We look at everything that happens to us as we often put it in a plus or minus column. Good things are good, bad things are but agreed, totally agreed. But it so happens that everything that happens, the good, the bad, and the in between can be used I've discovered to deepen. Not romance, which always has an end I'm sorry, may come back, but it'll end again. But intimacy,

which has no end. There is no way that you can be we know each other now completely. Intimacy can always go deeper. You can always reveal more, you can always discover more. And I find that to be very inspiring and heartening because I can commit to that. I can't commit to love because sometimes I feel it and sometimes I don't, But I can commit to intimacy. That makes me That is a vow that I can honor. So that's the third quality of going beyond conventional ideas

of love to deepen intimacy. But I want to make a very important caveat here, just for my own sake, probably, which is to say this does not include problems that are beyond the pale, which includes things like abuse and addiction. And it was really careful in the book, and I really don't want anyone to think that, oh, I should tolerate any form of discomfort because that will make me good at love. There are certain things that are not included because not only can you not control them, but

the person themselves probably has no say over them. So addiction and abuse, emotional, physical, not included in this picture of love. No. I think that's really important to point out, and it brings up sort of a bigger question around approaching relationships in this manner, And I think it's a bigger question that just comes to how we approach life

in general. Right, And I'm sure listeners are tired of me touting how important the Serenity prayer is, right, But in a relationship, it's that idea of like what do I want to allow and deepen into and allow to

be the way it is? And in what circumstances does something need to be changed, whether that be the relationship as a whole, like I should not be here, or all gradations of that right and that and that wisdom to know those two things can be I think it's the thing that drives a lot of people crazy in a relationship or a particularly people that are in a challenging relationship. Is that constant trying to figure out what

should I do here? And near the end of the book you have some questions from listeners and in one of them you quote your mother when it comes to making decisions that big decisions make themselves. And you know, I mentioned you before. I had been in a difficult marriage and what I realized was I think I knew

this isn't the right thing right. But I was always in this spot of sort of evaluating in that and the only way I could stay saying at points because I would look at and go, Okay, I'm not ready to go. So what I'm gonna do is be here for this period of time. I'm going to pick three months, right, and if no new information, you know, new information comes in,

that changes things. But in general, for this period of three months, I'm not going to pick this question up eight times a day, you know, I'm gonna let that question sit and I'll revisit it again. And that was so helpful to me because that constant trying to figure it out. And that's part of what you're getting at

with the four Noble truths. Right. Relationships never stabilize the thing us thinking that we should And so for me, thinking I should know the answer to some of these questions and relationships which are incredibly difficult, thinking I should know the answer was a cause of great pain to me. And relaxing into Okay, I'm here now, and I'm gonna I'm gonna be here for this period of time was

was ultimately really helpful to me. That sounds so smart and so kind to yourself and to your to your situation. You sort of gave yourself some space because I totally get what you're saying, and it is so I must have been so painful and it's so difficult when you're in a situation where it just doesn't feel right and you don't know what to do. That everything that happens you put in the pro or con column. You stop seeing the subtleties of your world and you just see

stay or go. But inspiration and knowing, knowing, nous and interestinct come from space. They come when you make space. You can't think your way into intuition or inspiration or knowing, but if you make space, it arises, and you're very smart. Idea to just say, well for three month, I'm not going to pick up the question creates that space. So that that's an awesome story. We've all been stuck inside for a year, living amidst the really difficult conditions of

this pandemic. We've had to change a lot about who we are in order to adapt, and maybe we've developed some behaviors in ways of thinking that aren't really serving us very well. This time has also brought up some fundamental questions about who we are, what matters to us, and how we want to live our lives. These are spiritual questions and they have a newfound sense of importance to many of us as things are starting to open back up. Now is the time for us to reevaluate

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I hope you'll join us. The other thing that you mentioned in the book, and I want to go back to kind of what you said before I sort of took us on a slight tangent, which was that intimacy is something that can always go deeper. And I love that idea that there's no end to that that you know, love is this thing, and you know a lot of times we think about romance, etcetera. And I want to read something that you wrote about passion, because I think

this is really great. Passion between two people will constantly arise, abide, and dissolve. Though this is a very difficult thing to navigate, I don't think it is a problem wishing that you were in a different arc of the cycle, however, can be. When I read that, I was really really struck by it.

Because again going back to your noble truths, all this stuff is always changing, and that's not a problem unless I'm only okay with a little part of the whole experience, and I and I'm determined that that's the part that has to stick around or there's a problem, right. And of course, you know, different parts of the cycle feel better than other parts of the cycle. And if you're upset because you're in a part that you don't like,

I don't think that's a problem either. But I don't think you should deny that or it's I don't think it's wrong to feel sad or upset or lonely or or whatever you might feel. But I think this actually relates to what we were just talking about. Two, because I love that you chow is that quote because it's sort of saying relax, you can relax with what is, and in so doing a space will open up and

then something interesting can happen. But when we're constantly driving toward an outcome or you know, sort of pounding an agenda, that space is gone and so it's very limiting. Yeah, the quote that has come up in so many of the recent interviews, um, just because it just seems so relevant all the time right now is the I think it's shin Zhen Young who said it, But it's a variation on something that you know, thousands of people have said,

which is that suffering equals pain times resistance. And when you were talking about you know, there are parts of that cycle that are more pleasant than other parts. Right, So there's a pleasant part and there's a less pleasant part. The less pleasant part is less pleasant, but it really

starts to become suffering when I resisted. In Buddhism. There are many ways to talk about suffering, and one way is just ordinary suffering that is unavoidable where human beings we have losses, we have disappointments that you cannot avoid those things. But then there's something called the suffering of suffering, which is what you add on to it by the way you react to it or the way you think

about it. So ordinary suffering hurts unavoidable. But the part that we add onto it of making up stories about it or strategies for never having it never happened again and pondering it, and that is a kind of suffering that is optional, makes me think of um. We interviewed someone named Tony Bernhard, and she's a Buddhist teacher who's dealt with chronic illness her whole life, and she talks about physical pain and she says, there's really three components

to it. There's the sensation itself, right, then there is what I'm telling myself about the sensation, and then there's what I'm telling myself about what it means, and that two of those three you can work with. You can't affect the sensation, but two of the three types of things that would happen there that we consider to be suffering can be worked with. And that same sort of

analogy applies to everything I think on the show. We've tended to say that's the difference between pain is unavoidable, it's what happens in life, and then suffering is that that extra layer, whereas in your case you're calling it suffering, and then you know suffering and suffering it's it's about the same thing. And this leads me to something that you wrote that I really wanted to talk about because I'm not a Buddhist teacher, but Buddhist ideas have influenced

me mean very very deeply. And one of the things that people will say about Buddhism is that, you know, they'll hear the word nonattachment or detachment and they will say, well, that's a cold thing, like what is life if you're not attached? You know what kind of life is to just be sort of about everything. And I'm gonna let you elaborate on what you wrote here, but I'm just gonna write what you wrote because I think it's a great place to start. And I never am able to

answer this with people. Well, which is why I grabbed me. I was like, oh, I should remember that. But um, non attachment does not mean you do not feel the joy and suffering of being human. Rather, it means to recognize that everything, every experience, moment, idea, emotion, and form will arise, abide, and dissolve. Non Attachment is about staying

on the ride, no matter what exactly. Well, I said that, so just of course mean to sound that way, But I I know exactly what you mean because I hear that to people wondering, saying, oh, you shouldn't be so attached when people get you know, when someone gets upset about something which really pisces me off. Um, And we think that non attachment means sort of converting everything into an equal tone like a mid range, or not getting

upset by upsetting things. And actually non attachment means the opposite. It means feeling everything fully, directly on the spot, and then moving on when with it, not not too soon and not too late. But it means opening and feeling everything fully. It means the opposite of what most people think. This is my interpretation, which is a kind of reserve. It means going way towards what you're experiencing, not being

reserved about it. And I have to say I also noticed that people that tout non attachment as an important strategy and marker of spiritual progress are very attached to their ideas about non attachment. So it's possible to be attached to the idea of non attachment. And you know that's a misstep. I'm guilty as charged on that when it points in my life. You know, like you know, your reaction is is too much. You should be more. I like the idea everything should be the same tone.

A spiritual teacher I really admire says it in the way of you know, this is not freedom from things, this is freedom to experience them. So it's not freedom from experience. It's freedom to have experience fully to go into it, you know, And I just love that's a slight twist on like one word, but it really gets to kind of what we're we're talking about, which is that a spiritual practice done right, at least for me, means that I can experience life. I don't have to hide.

And so I I just was really struck by the way you worded non attachment and that idea of that. We think making everything an even tone is what non attachment is. So um, it was a good thing to have to to be able to answer people, because that is the most confounding question I get. And that's almost always the criticism of boot. Isn't that I hear from people. It's it's that one, you know, it's about not feeling like, what's life? If you don't feel anything? Yeah, well, good

luck with that. It's also it's very misplaced, but I understand, I understand how it's easy to interpret it that way. But when you say the spiritual path done right, and the first thing that I thought of was a spiritual path done right in the Buddhist view as I understand it, which is limited is your life. There's no difference between the spiritual path and your life. Your life is the

spiritual path. So ideas about non attachment and detachment and some notion that you should become somewhat inhuman is the opposite of the Buddhist teachings, which says fully human, fully here. My friend Michael Carroll, a wonderful teacher and writer, says in meditation, we're not trying to get anywhere, which of course is sometimes hard to swallow because we have an agenda for our meditation practice. But no, he says, we're not trying to get anywhere, and this I think is

true of the entire path. We're trying to be somewhere. That is a beautiful, beautiful thing that he said. And non attachment means non attachment to everything except for where you are. Yeah. I love that being. You know, it's not about trying to go somewhere, it's about trying to be somewhere. That's really really resonates, and I think, you know, my meditation practice has really transformed and it continues to transform the more that I learned to do this, which

is to really let it be. And the challenge with that is it's very counterintuitive. On one level, because what I do most of the days, I just let my mind be and it runs all over creation and all kinds of bad patterns. I mean, just like doing absolutely nothing right isn't exactly what works, you know, for for a lot of people. So I think when we go into meditation, we get this sense like, Okay, now the job is to kind of pin this thing down and get it into this space. And I've really been working

with learning how do you do both those things? How do you like? And I love the precision and the openness, you know, how do you have the precision of staying with that thing and the openness that allows everything else to happen around it? And it's it really has deepened my meditation practice and my appreciation for what we're really trying to do. And I read meditation books for a lot of years, and I know people were saying this. I am not saying that this was like not written.

I just didn't hear it for a long time, right, I know what you mean, You know what you mean? Chuckym Trump tobean meditation master who brought the Shambala teachings the lineage that I practice in. I was just reading rereading an incredible book that you wrote called Cutting through Spiritual Materialism, which is actually the very first book I ever read when I started meditating, and actually have it right here so I can read you this one sentence quote.

Meditation is not a question of forcing the mind back to some particular object, but of bringing it back down from the dream world into reality. Oh that was a Mic Drob moment for me. Yeah, we're not trying to get somewhere. We're not trying to even be good at meditating, because who cares. If you're the world's best follower of the breath, it doesn't matter. We're trying to be good at being here and coming down from the dream world into reality, which is fierce and beautiful and horrifying and

confounding and joyous. Yeah. That's a great line. So we are at the end of our time here. You and I are going to go have a little bit more of a post show conversation that is available to our Patreon supporters, so if you're interested, folks, check that out.

And I think what we're going to talk about is the I'm never going to say this right, Uh, it's the psychoanalyst Karen Horney, the Hornevian directional theory, so I've actually pronounced horn i, which saves us the embarrassment of saying horny parents horn i, and then Hornevian directional theory, which I love talking about, so forward to that. Yeah, I mean I read it and I was like, how have I never heard this before? Because it it is really a powerful thing. So we're going to do that

in the post show conversation. But Susan, thanks so much for taking the time to come back on and writing another wonderful book. Oh thank you. It's always such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for allowing me to do so. Okay, bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the one You Feed podcast. When you join our remember Ship community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our

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