Special Episode: Crisis Strategies for Mental and Emotional Health

just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Hi everybody. First up, we have Parker Palmer, who is the founder and senior partner of the Center for Courage and Renewal. He's the author of many books and as an interesting point, he has more honorary doctor it's in addition to his

PhD than books he has written. Hi, Parker, thanks so much for finding a couple of minutes to come on and talk with us. It was good to be with you again, Eric. Yes, it is nice to be with you and nice to see you. I just heard some birds outside your window as you were You and I were sort of talking about and makes me think about, you know, one of the things that I'm finding particularly comforting in these difficult times. And I find comforting lots of times when the human world seems to be crazy

as a nature. Absolutely, that's always been one of the best therapies for me. And at the same time, I'm I'm so aware of what different social locations we occupied as this pandemic pressent down on our lives. You know, I'm one of the lucky ones who has nature nearby to get out into the woods and take some nice walks here in Madison, Wisconsin. And I'm I'm also one of the lucky ones in that I'm a person who's worked in a home office for forty years, so being

housebound isn't a big deal for me. I have enough resources to not have to worry about paying next month's rent or putting food on the table for a family. Um and so many people and obviously I don't have to show up in a workplace. So many people are not in my situation. So I think this is holy ground because it's occupied by such a wide range of

human beings. And it seems to me that one of the big opportunities in a crisis like this is to become aware, more keenly aware of your place in the human ecosystem, and in my is to have to have great gratitude for it. You know. The downside for me is that I'm eighty one and I have some underlying health conditions, so I'm one of those at risk people.

But I've been thinking a lot about folks who live their whole lives at risk um not because of age or health, but because of race or religion, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, poverty, And so I think it's very therapeutic for me to use this crisis not as a time to ask why me, but a time to ask why not me? And to become very aware of how many folks are much more vulnerable than I am. That's a

really great point, and I share those sentiments. I know that I am especially blessed in so many different ways, and it's easy to see that, and I keep sort of reminding myself, like when I start to feel a little bit anxious and just go, well, that's good. And where other people more affected, where people suffering more? Where can we help, and I think that's such a great perspective. It's one way of dealing with what's happening underneath it.

And then there's still even when we recognize all those things, there's still this underlying anxiety so many people are feeling, even if they are somewhat better situated. It's anxiety inducing potential is nearly unlimited because we have no freaking idea what's going to happen, and we do not do well with uncertainty on that kind of scale. And it's huge, Yeah, it is. It is that You're absolutely right, Eric, it

is huge. One way I've been framing it in my own mind is to say that, you know, throughout life, we have experiences where we suddenly realize that, contrary to what our ego believes, we are not in control of a lot of things. And this is a is a global global exerous is in being not in control again, something that a lot of people on this planet no better than I do, because they've never been able to afford the illusion or the circumstances of their lives don't

create the illusion that they're in control. But my life has, and so I need to take this as as an opportunity to do some big learning around the fact that when it comes to matters of life and death, I'm not in control of anything, and I think, you know, the therapy is partly to embrace that fact as fully as I possibly can, just to not to not fight it, you know, to not say, oh, if we could only do this or that, you know, everything would be fine,

because it wouldn't be. I don't stand at those levers of power. At the same time, I think it's very important to counter balance that with being attentive to what I can control. I can control my own behavior. You do the things that are being recommended now, self quarantine, uh, stay out of crowds, you know, change my normal habits.

And the deeper we get into this, the more upside I'm finding in that more opportunities to take those walks that we were talking about, to be with trees rather than people, and more opportunities to reflect deeply on my situation, our situation, the situation. I think for me, learning has

always been a huge therapeutic tool. You and I have talked before, and I have written, as you know, a lot about three experiences of deep depression in my one years of life and I have to say that when I had the good fortune to sort of start coming through that profound darkness, what really started healing and advancing my life was learning what I could from having gone

there and realizing how precious an ordinary day is. You know, what a wonderful thing it is to be able to get up at five thirty if that's when you want to get up, rather than feeling that you want to hide out in bed until noon. What a wonderful thing it is to be able to have an idea and to start writing about it or talking with a friend about it, all these simple things to watch a sunrise

with a cup of coffee in your hand. The learning that comes from being lost in the dark or from a circumstance of this sort that feels oppressive and imprisoning for me is a great piece of therapy. Yeah, I agree, I agree completely. I think also that idea of what you're you're hinting at a little bit is what is the learning or the opportunity that's in the situation we're facing.

I hear some people talking in ways that feel a little cavalier to me, like when they're like, well, every problem is a blessing in disguise, and well, let's slow down, like this is not a blessing for a lot a lot of people. So that feels a little cavalier to me. And yet I I recognize from my own work, in my own practice, that difficult situations and changes of this nature they give us the opportunity to bring something different out.

It allows us to approach things differently, see things differently, do things differently. And even though I wouldn't say, oh, it's a blessing that this is happening, we can find positive things that come out of what is happening. Yeah, to quote a known cliche, it's it's a it's an example of making lemonade when you're giving lemon that's right, that's right. And I'm a big believer in the Socratic

maxim that the unexamined life is not worth living. And most of us live our days without examining ourselves or others, our relationship to others, the world in which we all live. We we live our days without paying attention to much of that because everything is fine. But when everything isn't fine, either through you know, personal failures and fallings, or through social circumstances of the sort that we're living in now, and we'll be living in for a long time to come.

Then we have a chance to think about a whole lot of things, to examine a whole lot of things more profoundly. I'm frankly hoping, and this too is therapeutic for me, that this crisis will cause Americans to think more seriously about their political choices and decisions. For example, I'm aware of people I know who has recently as a month were when they had an opportunity railing against

big government and what they think mistakenly call socialism. And now those same people are demanding federal intervention on every level, from healthcare to corporate bailouts, two fixes in the free market that will save their four oh one case. And I'm wondering if they will learn from that. I'm wondering, if, you know, when the economy gets a little more back into into balance, if they will remember that big government is not all bad, and federal rescue programs for people

in need aren't all bad. I'm wondering if opinions will change about what's what's disparagingly called welfare, you know, for for for people who weren't born on second or third base and who had two or three strikes against them today they came into this world. I'm hoping that we

can all do a lot of serious political reflection. To me, that not only means who we vote for and why, but it means how we talk to each other as we the people, how we try to sort this out, not just alone or not just in our in our silos and our lifestyle enclaves, but across lines of divide. I'm wondering if if there's some way to turn this

toward healing for our wounded body politic. There are some signs that that might be happening, and then there are signs that it's simply driving us even further into our political divisions, um, you know, across the battle line. That would be a very sad outcome. Indeed, if it if it's simply hardened our divisions, I agree it. It will be interesting to see how how that turns out. But I do there is there is opportunity for us to come together. That is one of the possibilities, and I

think it's one that's worth worth speaking. As we near wrapping up here, are there any sort of thoughts or practical ideas you'd have for people to care for their mental and emotional health during this period. I'm a big believer in taking an opportunity like this if you can to slow down and even stop with a lot of what you're doing now. Again, I know there are people who still have to show up at work. I know there are people who depend on showing up at work

every day to get the bills paid. Um I work at home. I can continue to do a lot of my work as a writer online, so I don't face that particular dilemma. But you know, we all know the stories of people slowing down and reflecting inwardly even when

they're living fast paced or hard pressed external lives. We know the story of a Nelson Mandela or others who have been imprisoned using that time to reflect deeply, to get in touch with the imperatives of their soul, and to draw on those imperatives to animate them into action

when the crisis begins to ease. So I think this is possible, even if you have to keep moving or keep surviving, And we come out of something like that as I think truer and therefore more powerful people who have kind of tapped into our depths rather than skimming along on the surface, the way we so often do in what we finally think of as ordinary life. It really isn't ordinary life. It's just it's just generating the illusion of being ordinary. This is as as ordinary as

anything else over the course of human history. So I'll construct a little parallel here that's probably largely bogus, but it comes to me anyway. At a ad one, I've talked to a lot of people who are at sixty five or seventy and they say, I'm about to retire or to be retired, so help me to find find an activity that I can fill my hours with, my empty hours with, because they're afraid of empty hours. And my constant advice has been no, don't make that your

first move when you retire. Use retirement initially as an opportunity to find out who you are in a way that you weren't able to do in the course of your active and engaged life. Take value time and space, Value emptiness. You know, value those moments in life when everything is up for grabs and you can't figure you're out the meaning of anything. That's a chance to get closer to the truth about who you are, about others,

about the world. You know, there's this this interesting word in our in our language, in the English language, Derek, disillusionment. I've always been struck by how when somebody comes to us and says, I'm just terribly disillusioned, which of course it's what a lot of people are feeling right now, are instant instinct is to put an arm around their shoulders and say, oh, I'm so sorry, how can I help you? Disillusionment is in fact the process of losing

an illusion, and it's a good thing. We should be saying your disillusion congratulations. That means you've lost an illusion and you're that much closer to reality, to truth about yourself, about the world, about something. And our question ought to be how can I disillusion you further? Because that's an important journey to take towards the bedrock ground of reality.

And I think this is a big opportunity for people around the world to understand realities that we in the developed world, the most highly developed countries, and we who have most benefited from relative affluence. It's a journey we don't we don't take because we have the obstacle of stuff, material well being obscuring our vision. So I'd say, you know, once, once you've got over the punch in the gut, get

disillusioned and make the most of it wonderful. Well, I think that is a great place for us to wrap up. So thank you so much for spending in a few minutes with us. It's always a pleasure. Thank you, Eric. Well, thank you for this program. I'm sure that's what other folks say are going to be helped with a lot of people be well. Coming up next is Mirabi Star. She is a writer and translator and speaks and leads

retreats on the intra spiritual teachings of the Mystics. Hi, Mirabi, thank you so much for coming back on to spend a couple of minutes with us. It's an honor. Eric, thank you for thinking of me and reaching out. Yeah, you know, what I'm doing with these short segments is just trying to get some thoughts from some different people we've had on the show who I respect and admire, and kind of some of your thoughts on how to

cope with these difficult and uncertain times. I think we're all feeling a lot of emotions, and the goal isn't that we make those emotions go away, but just some ideas you have on coping. Oh sure, you know, I'm of course right in the middle of it myself and and grappling with my own um challenges, that is, challenges

to my piece of mind. But one of the things that's really striking me is that we are being invited to abide in a space of not knowing right now, and that is counterintuitive, especially to the Western mind that

is so solutions driven. That's not to say that we shouldn't figure out ideal scenarios and act accordingly, but it's more than anything, the solutions seemed to be not engineering solutions so much as stopping and being like even as a society, we're being asked to disengage and to turn inward,

which is an age old mystical practice. You know from the dow Da King that that says over and over again that the way of wisdom is to yield and to allow and allow what is law, the laws of nature, to take take their course or whatever, and to stop

trying to exert our own will. In the Jewish mystical tradition, there's a similar kind of wisdom in the Sabbath, which in Judaism is the holiest of all holy days, and it happens every single week, and the the underlying teaching of the Sabbath is, yes, about rest, but maybe more radically and subversively, it's about ceasing from our efforts to bend the world to the shape that we think it

should be and and instead yielding to what is. And for those of us who are activists, you know, just for justice and environmental justice and social justice, not doing is counter to everything that our souls are telling us,

which is how can I help? But it's not either or I mean, it's it's just so paradoxical that actually the way we can help right now is literally to stay put, to stay in our homes and to walk in nature, but to stay away from other humans and gathering spaces when we just feel like we've got to

come together and do something. So there are ways to do something, and one of those ways is literally to stop participating in the machine of doing and buying and consuming and all of that, to just lighten our footprint

for a minute and turn inward collectively and individually. So I just find that so interesting that that is the thing to do, is to not do and to be Yeah, this is a potentially unique opportunity to, as you said, slow down and spend a little bit more focus on the things that are close to us, you know, not not the things that are We're always rushing to get somewhere, to go, to go, do something, be somewhere, and this is really an opportunity to pay closer attention to the

things that are close to us right where we are. That might mean our family, it might mean our spiritual practice, it might mean reading, but to really re orient ourselves in that way. Yeah, And it's it is sort of a subversive thing because it also look at what's happening

to the economy. It also goes along with pulling back from our conditioning to over consume, you know, the Earth's resources, and by collectively pulling back on that because we're forced to, you know, it's it's sending the economy into chaos, of course, but I think it's really helping a lot of us re orient towards what we really need and what is essential.

And I feel like our mother, the Earth, is begging us to reconsider, you know, what is what is essential and to started embracing things that don't cost money or

tax the Earth's um well being. So music and reading, and it's spiritual practice, and all of the arts, all of the things that that don't require the expenditure of personal resources and the taxing of the earth, you know, are going to become I think, more valuable to us collectively, and at least that's that's my hope, is that we can return to what really matters, and that after this crisis of this illness has passed, that we will retain the recalibration of our souls and our and our values

and and recommit to the beauty, to experiences of and sharing of beauty in this world. I love that. And so one of the things you referenced early on is this not knowing, and that seems to be one of the hardest places for us humans to abide. And yet we are in a period of deep and profound not knowing. None of us know what is going to happen. None of us know how this is going to turn out, none of us know how long this lasts, what comes next.

There's so much anxiety around the unknown. What are some ways of relaxing into not knowing, relaxing into the unknown, because that does seem to be a big part of what we all have to learn to do in this time. Yeah, that's such an beautiful, important question, Eric, and um one that I sit with a lot. The mystical teachings of all the spiritual traditions all all point to the sacred holy wonder of our inability to know and urge us

to let ourselves down into that nakedness of spirit. In the Christian mystical tradition, it's the Cloud of Unknowing by the anonymous medieval author and also St. John of the Cross Dark Knight of the Soul, the sixteenth century Spanish mystic whose master work I've had the great privilege of translating from Spanish to English Dark Knight of the Goal, which is not necessarily about navigating difficult times, although that

difficult experiences can be a catalyst for this spiritual emergency here, or a crisis known as the Dark Knight of the Soul. But rather it's about allowing ourselves to surrender to the awesome mystery of the divine and let all of our ideas about what's real and true and um, certainly with regard to spiritual life, just fall away. So John of the Cross speaks about that, it's as if the great master artist wants to paint your portrait because you are

the most beautiful creature she ever created. And so I'm just saying she because this is what I do now, just fool around, why not, and just trying to to rebalance five thousand years of patriarchy a little bit. Um. So she asks you to pose for her so she can paint your portrait. Johnathan Cross says, and so you do. You're very flattered, of course, holy one. I'm happy to pose for your portrait. I'm glad you find me beautiful.

And you you pose, and then you're sitting there for a really long time while the master is creating her masterpiece. And then after a bit you feel like, huh, I've just been sitting here. I should probably do something to contribute to this project. And so you strike a different pose, thinking that it might be more fetching or alluring. And what are you doing when you do that? You are interfering,

John says, with the master. The Master's work and your only task is to be still and be your beautiful self and let her create, um, this this masterpiece. And Roumi, who was at century Sufi mystic from Persia Persian mystic Turkey is where he died. And Roomy, who so many people know through his beautiful translations by Coleman Barx and Robert Bly speaks a lot in his ecstatic, beautiful love

poetry to God about this the same thing. And I have in front of me in fact um, a roomy poem that's been giving me comfort, that was translated by Andrew Harvey. So maybe i'll I'll close with this and see if it speaks to you all. And again I'm going to pronounce to the feminine, so you should know that that's what's happening. It's called the grapes of my body. The grapes of my body can only become wine after

the winemaker tramples me. I surrender my spirit like grapes to her trampling, so that my inmost heart can blaze and dance with joy. Although the grapes go on weeping blood and sobbing. I cannot bear any more anguish, any more cruelty. The winemaker stuffs cotton in her ears. I am not working in ignorance. You can deny me if you want, you have every reason, But it is I who am the master of this work. And when through my passion you reach perfection. You will never stop praising

my name. Mhm. That's a lovely poem and I think that is a lovely place for us to wrap up. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom with us. Oh it is. It's an honor, Eric, and blessings to all of you who are grappling with these strange times. May you find a sabbath space in your soul right now. Thank you so much. You're welcome, Bye bye bye. Our next guest is Lewis Howes, who has done many things. He's been an athlete and a podcast host and an author. He is perhaps best known

for being the host of the podcast The School of Greatness. Hi, Lewis, it's good to have you on again. Thanks, I appreciate it. Man. We are getting some folks together and and the point of these conversations is just to get some thoughts on you on how people can really manage their mainly their mental and emotional health. As we're going through this, right, there's so much that's out of our control. There's so much that we we can't do. There's so much we

don't know. But what we do know is that how we respond to this really is the issue. You know, how we each personally respond. Well, I think you already said it. I think your whole podcast admission is to contain need to remind people about which wolf to feed

inside of you. And as this is all unfolded over the last I guess week for me, since it's happened, um, there are a lot of people that have been reactive and constantly consuming the negativity and the fear based mentality around it, and they're feeding that I guess bad wolf. And right when things started to happen, I came from more of a place of calm and peace, just because

I've been trained that way over the years. I haven't always been that way, but I've been trained that way, and I know that you can't control what happens around you, or the events that around you, or what people say or do. What you can control how you respond once you have the training and you're prepared, and I think we just need to think about if you don't have the training, you can start training right now through simple reminders.

When you're talking or consuming content that's negative for fear based or you're having that anxious or worry mentality, then one practice can be to take your shoes and socks off and literally just feel you're the bottom of your feet on the ground, standing up and just taking deep breasts, or you can sit down and take deep breasts and just have your bare feet on the ground to ground yourself and put your attention on your feet as opposed to the noise and the media or anxiety, worrying, stress,

and fear of the future. And that's just one simple practice you can take right now. Anytime you go to that negative place, you can just ask yourself, is this supporting me and becoming a bigger leader, a better leader, someone who leads with love, with peace, with calm, And you definitely don't want to distance yourself too much from reality and facts and what's happening and making sure you're

safe and aware and all those things. But when it gets to a place of mental stress, mental overwhelm, well you know, we just are unable to make better decisions from that place. And so I think it's just have the information and clear, you know, have things understandable of what's happening. But when you've noticed you're going to a place of fear, connect your feet to the ground and take a deep breath for sixty seconds until you can

calm your mind then make a decision after that. That's for me, it's just going back to the basics during this time. We don't know what's going to happen. We don't know the future, but we do know what we can control right now, and that's putting our thoughts on our attention into something more neutral, more grounded, more positive. That's a great, very basic practice, just kind of coming back into the body out of the mind. You know, where it's our mind is where where fear tends to

get fed. We feel it in the body often, but the body can also be a way of grounding us. And I think one of the things that a lot of people, you know, and it's worth thinking about, and I know I've been talking with a lot of coaching clients about is trying to get a sense of like, alright, how much news and information do I need right now?

How much is going to serve me? And being prepared and understanding and responding, and then how much of this is me just sort of as uh as the poet Mark Nepo says that, you know, being addicted to the

noise of things falling apart, Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's really easy for us to just I mean, I've got my Apple Watch on right now, I've got my iPhone and I get these news notifications just from CNN or other stuff that just pops up on the the Apple devices, and it's really easy to see, oh, there's another hundred people have died or this or that or whatever, and for me, it's just turned it off. You're gonna hear the information. You can't escape it completely. Someone's gonna tell

you something. You're gonna get the news, and you can schedule to look at it once a day if you need to know all the information. But other than having the information, it's like you're just creating a train wreck in your mind over and over again. If you look at this stuff all day long. Imagine being outside and seeing a car crash in front of you, but seeing it happen, you know, every two minutes throughout the entire day.

If you witnessed a car crash and witness people in pain and fear, you would create that in your own body and in your own mind. So you need to remove yourself from seeing the car crashes on social media and the news on TV all the time. Look at it once a day for a few minutes as opposed to every few minutes, and you'll just have more peace

in your mind. You can go back to your vision of how can I be a better leader for myself, leader for my intimate partner, my family, my friends, my community, How can I lead in times of uncertainty as opposed to be the one that needs to be lead? And this is work we all get to continue to do, whether we're great leaders or we're followers, are trying to become better leaders, whatever it may be. I have to work on this too, and I get to work on

this every single moment. When my girlfriend wants to remind me of all the craziness that's happening, I'm saying, yes, this is not going to slow down. And how can we choose to respond in a loving, peaceful, or powerful place in this moment as opposed to running in circles of watching the car crash every two minutes. I think that's just what we get to create out of this base. This environment, as unfortunate and and as it is, and how it's nothing like this has ever happened in my lifetime,

is weird as it sounds. I get excited about the opportunity for growth. You know, we're all going through this together. How can we choose to make the most of this and find the meaning? You know, we may not know the reason why something is happening, why people are dying, why people are gonna say, why this virus got spread, why whatever any situation in life, but we can find

the meaning in those moments. And for me, I don't understand a lot of things, but I create meaning from situations, from quote unquote bad times, from unfortunate times, and that's how I choose to get through it as finding meaning. So that's what I would reflect back on everyone listening is to really it's happened to like, what can I do to grow? And how can I learn and develop into a better leader of love and find meaning out of this even if bad things are happening around me. Yeah,

I think that's a beautiful reflection. And I think, you know, it's been about a week since everything went completely crazy here in the US, you know, and I think today feels like a day where for me, a lot of people are sort of were popping our heads kind of back up above water a little bit and going okay, I have a little bit of sense of the way things are going to look for a little while and it's gonna be weird, and you know, and I think that it's a good chance for us to do what

I think is the core business of life all the time, which is to think about what really matters to me, what's important? How does my time need to reflect that and then live into it. And I think this is, you know, a good time to do that. And a lot of that stuff that the sort of ordinary that we had before, that's all been shaken up. So it's a great opportunity to really go what matters and how do I need to adjust my time? Okay, I'm working

from home, now, what does that mean? What what's my responsibility to my work, to my family, to my I just think it's the time to for that deeper reflection. Absolutely, And it's again I get excited about these opportunities, not because people are in paying or hurting or you know, out things are happening, but like you said, the time

to reflect. Like I'm an intimate relationship with someone I've been with for about a year now, and I'm excited because you've got to find out quickly whether you actually want to be with the person that you're with because you'd be around them a lot more. Or if like there were things you were hiding under the rug or sweeping away just because it was a convenient and you

had a place to escape. You no longer have a place to escape for the next few weeks essentially, or maybe longer, and you're gonna find out, like, is my life going in the direction that I wanted to go in my relationships? Last weekend, we cleaned out our whole place. I cleaned out all the like half my clothes I gave away, and I organized my close that I organized everything in my physical environment, and I felt like, Okay, yeah, I'm just holding onto things that don't support me, that

I don't use, that are unnecessary. Why ask yourself, what are you holding onto and your relationships that you don't need to anymore it's not important to you, or maybe that relationship needs to red just or you need to let that person go for whatever reason. My finances, you know, I'm checking everything in my finances. I'm letting go of subscriptions that I don't need just because I had him

on and it was convenient. But it's like, let's really pay attention to what you need what you don't need, what's important, like you said, and ask yourself this questions. So for me, the reflection time is beautiful and excites me to clean out the fat in my life, to feed the wolf that needs to be fed and not feed the wolf that is not serving me. Awesome. Well, I think that is a great place for us to wrap it up. Thanks so much Lewis for taking a little bit of time to come on and Uh, it's

always a pleasure talking with you. Appreciate it, man, Thank you. Next we hear from Stephen C. Hayes, who is one of the founders of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. He is also the president of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapy and the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science. In his spare time, he also has managed to write forty three books and more than six undred scientific articles. Hi, Stephen, thanks for taking a few minutes to join us again.

I'm happy to be here with youre It's a pleasure to have you on. What I'm doing with these short little conversations is really just trying to provide people with some additional support for dealing with their thoughts and emotions. You know, their mental and emotional health as we go through this difficult time. So I'm wondering if you have a couple ideas or thoughts that people could be considering

or doing or trying in this difficult time. Well, actually, there's a fair amount of research on the psychological flexibility the kind of things that we've talked about before that's reflected in the act work and in my work. And uh, it's been looked at in terms of how people come out on the other side of crises with violent storms or school shootings or violent crime or and so we kind of know some of the things that are important

to do. I mean, it involves emotional cognitive openness. You've gotta make room for a kind of a variety of things and take the time really to notice that because some of what's there may surprise you. Don't be embarrassed. For example, if you find dark humor, or if you start to tear up unexpected they or you get cranky

about something you normally wouldn't, or you reminisce. I mean, when you have something like this, it stirs the pop and so you want to take the time to feel, choose to feel, and when you do that, it gives you the kind of a little space to then orient towards what's actually present in front of you, what is actually of importance now, and focus on that, not to get away from these emotions, but simply to put the minute of trajectory that empowers you to be here now.

It's what you're gonna deal with. I'm working right now as I sit here, on not touching my face so much. It turns out I actually did some research on this forty years ago, and I have a little device here to record how many times that touched my face, and that actually has a big impact I showed in research four years ago. So I'm learning from my own ancient research done for other reasons, how to bring something into this present moment that's useful to me, may be helpful

to my family. And you know, then as that happens, the important kind of step of what is there to be done? You know, it isn't just about you and about your feelings and your fears. Again, not as a way to get rid of or away from the situation they're in, but to channel some of that energy appropriately other friends and family to call up or their connections to be made A little Facebook talks to to have. Are there things to be written or things to be

dealt with? Your home is Are your kids getting enough of your attention? Are they if they're home from school, are you working with them to do things they're helpful to in terms of their education and all of the things that you can do when you're in a crisis situation that could be pro social and helpful to others. If you do those things, what the research shows you come out on the other side of crises like this

with some post traumatic growth. You find things that you haven't thought about for a long time, and it's kind of a gut check, and it may be that things that are of important, things that you really know would be healthy for you to do, whether it's spiritual practices or we can ling old friendships, or learning not to swept small stuff, or getting things going the interests that you've let fall to one side because you've been so busy dealing with the day to day work that you

do whatever. If you're like me, you're sequested in place and thinking about, Okay, what is of importance to me, and take a time to sort of do a check in, and you may find that this crisis actually lifts through up and moves you forward in ways you didn't expect. It's a great perspective, and you touched on a lot of things there. I mean, I think the first being we can come through these things by growing and becoming stronger.

So what appears to initially be very difficult and hard, although it has its difficult and hard elements, if faced and dealt with, we can actually grow and strengthen. And so I think that's the, you know, the first really important point. And then I think secondly you're saying, allow the emotions to be there, allow yourself to feel what you're feeling, and you know, don't don't try and make all that go ay, face it and be with it.

And then finally, this is a really good opportunity to really think again about values, what matters to me, what's important to me right now, particularly is our routines are all shaken up. I'm finding it a really good time to stop and go, Okay, well, what matters, what's important? And how should my time and actions reflect that? Exactly right? And if you do, think you'll find on the outside

of this that you actually have gains. It isn't just coping or dealing or getting through it's it's it's a matter of growing. And you know, you use that kind of talk of strength. You know, we know something about what or mental toughness comes from, and it's the same thing that physical toughness comes from, its strength and flexibility. You want to practice both those things, and so this is a good time to do it, and to bring

your whole self into this crisis situation. Your mind's going to give you a lot of scary thoughts and judgments, but back up a little bit and watch that too, and take what's useful and lead the rest. And that's a good habit to build for any situation, and crises are also opportunities. A question I've gotten several times from people that I'd pose to you, you know, because I

think it's it's a little bit around psychological flexibility. Is people feeling really frustrated when they see certain people in the world not responding to this in the way they think is correct. People who may not be distancing, people who may not be quarantining, people who may not be taking this seriously, and and people are finding themselves getting really angry about that. How would you how would you encourage those people to work with that skillfully. Well, it

isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, this is what you're upset about, is the lack of pro sociality and cooperation because of course those folks out of the beach and Florida or whatever, the things that you're seeing, you know, may indeed be part of a process of spreading the virus and threatening us and our family and loved ones. I think what the research shows on that is that if you have graded opportunities to to sort of correct in which group membership is still important, but those are

redirect I can give you an example. My fourteen year old said to me yesterday that, you know, if I get sick, he's talking about himself. I have almost zero chance of having any serious health benefits. So why shouldn't I have a sleepover. Well, it's you know, I didn't

come back card at him, but I kind of walked through. Yeah, that's true, But we need to think of the whole family, the whole group, and that includes his seventy one year old dat who you know, wouldn't respond quite as well if he's out there doing sleepovers with his friends and they've been doing gosh knows what. Unfortunately, the other parents weighed in with this very same message, and we reined in this little, natural, understandable bit of selfishness that was

right there in my youngster. So I think graded sanctions that are maintained the participation of people in the group. Now, when you're looking at something like the TV screen and you don't have an opportunity to talk to those people out of the beach, that's a little different. That's self righteousness because that anger that you're feeling and that's wrong and etcetera. If you really climb into that actually disconnects

you from people. So, yeah, if you have an opportunity with those around you, we're group membership is really important. Pro sociality comes from that uh you know, shared bond. So you don't want to climb into your anger and

push people away. You're in a drama and make minor corrections about various things happen to do with things maybe happen in your household, about how to uh you know, maintain sheltering in place or do things that are responsible, uh you know, whether it's wearing a mask or uh you know, disinfecting or washing your hands and all those kinds of things. The stuff that we're doing with regard to what we see on the toews and screen. Well,

that's an indulgence. I don't think it's a bad thing to be upset about it, but it is a bad thing to call inside that upset and get self righteous about it. Got it? And what about you know? The other thing? I think the other emotion a lot of people are feeling is a great deal of fear. You know, there's fear about what's going to happen where this is all going to lead, Fear about the economy, fear about food shortage is you know a lot of a lot

of fear. And so how how do you encourage people to sort of allow that fear, like not to not to repress the emotion, to sort of allow it to be there, but also not get carried away or ruled by it. What are some ideas for working with this sort of fear of uncertainty which is just all pervasive right now. Yeah, Well, two things. One is be careful of the judgments and understanding fear of the future that's inside a cognitive network of what's going to happen and

what if this and what if that? But that's not really fear of the future of the future is not here yet. What it really is is kind of this verbal judgmental process driving you into a fear of someome stance. It is, if it is a scary situation, fear is totally appropriate. But if you look at what people are doing when they mismanage the future inside all this judgmental chat, or if you're not able to back up a little bit,

you can be driven to doing really unselfish things. I mean, you go out and panic by let's say, well, fine for you if it's still on the shelves, but how about the next person who really needs that toilet paper or whatever. I mean, do you really need thirty rolls of toilet paper? I mean you could wash yourself with a bucket. I mean, what are you doing? And it doesn't make any sense? But it might create harm for others, so they're The second thing is catch that judgment. Notice

what's going back up a little bit. Let the mind chat or take what's useful, leave the rest to use your diffusion mindfulness and kind of distancing skills from your own chatter and scary thoughts. That's a good practice anyway. And then that other pieces values, What could you do that would be driven by your best self. And what I suggest to think of somebody who you think would be kind of a guide, a hero, a person if you could think of anybody in your whole life would

be handling this situation pretty darn well. Imagine that person and imagine they get it chance to follow you around and give you a little bit of guidance. How I bet you what you're gonna find is you pick somebody who they show values and how they deal with situations. Put those values in your heart, be your best self, and it's probably not the person who runs out and panicked by his toilet paper. That's that's awesome. That's a

great place for us to wrap up. Thank you so much, Stephen for taking the time to come on and share a little wisdom with us. Thanks for the opportunity here, Okay. Next up is inspirational author and speaker Scott Stabile. We had interviewed Scott years ago about his book Big Love, The Power of Living with a Wide Open Heart. Hi, Scott, it's a pleasure to have you back on. I'm always I'm always happy when we get a chance to talk, So thank you for taking a couple of minutes. Yeah,

I'm happy to spend some time with you, Eric, Thank you. Yeah. So what I'm doing in this episode is I've shared with you, is I'm just looking for some people who I admire to share some some wisdom on how to deal with our mental and emotional health during this period. You know, what are some things that we can do so that we can get through all this with some

degree of sanity and grace. Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to share with you some of the things I'm doing, you know, and if that resonates with people listening, by all means integrated, you know. Um, I'm finding meditation to be of critical importance for me right now, and my practice has been for the past few months. Actually, morning meditation the first thing I do when I wake up. I use the app Insight Timer. I like, you know,

that's an app. I like. Their loads of teachers on there and many meditation sations, And even before I got out of bed, I mean, unless I really have to p that, I'll go to the bathroom first, But other than that, I just lie in bed and I pick a meditation, usually between twenty to twenty five minutes, and start my day in that space. And for me, that sets a tone that I want to set set for myself.

What I'm noticing in my experience now, and I suspect a lot of people can relate to it, is that even upon waking up the past few days, the moment I wake up, there's a anxiety. It's like waking up back into this totally unpredictable, unexpected, surreal experience, and my mind wants to immediately go into a state of fear on some levels. So I don't believe there are rules for any of us about how we need to process this. There's no guide book for dealing with a global pandemic.

And whatever you're feeling is okay, And I'm allowing for whatever I'm feeling, and at the same time, I'm looking at ways that I can mitigate the fear, and meditation

has been great. Another thing that I've been doing is really considering that which I have control over and that which I don't, because I feel like a lot of what takes us into a place of panic is feeling really out of control, and this situation right now is wholly out of our control, and if anything, the gift in that is really being shown in an exaggerated way, just how uncertain life is It's like life is always uncertain.

We know this, and now we're really being shown to stop and pay attention because we have no control over most anything. So I find the things that my mind wants to get fearful about or panic about. It will be things like, how are other people showing up? What choices are they making? Are following the protocols that I believe we all need to be following to keep our fellow humans being safe, especially the elderly, especially those who

are you know, compromised. And when I'm reading reports of people who aren't or seeing out there people who aren't through my window, it's frustrating and it can be enraging, and at this at the same time, I have no control over that, right, That's just one thing I have no control over. So when I'm when I'm caught in those moments of reflecting on how those things are making me feel, I go back to what can I control in this moment? You know, what can I be controlling

in my day? So I can be controlling how I'm showing up in the face of this pandemic, the choices that I'm making for my well being. How am I supporting my immune system? Now right, the choices I can be making for other people's well being by socially distancing. If I take a walk every day, but if I see someone on the sidewalk, I get into the street. You know, I create space between us. I'm not taking

risks around transmission. I've heard from several people have reached out to me about dealing with that anger they're feeling over people who are not following what we think is the right protocol to keep people safe. Um, and you touched on that day, Tell me a little bit more about how you deal with that that anger. You know. Part of how I deal with it is I look for myself in everybody, and I see everybody in myself.

So when I'm feeling angry about choices that people are making, I do my best to bring compassion to the story, to bring empathy to the story, you know, to understand that we can't possibly know everything that's going on in the mind or in the experience of another human being. And I'm okay with getting angry. You know, it's okay. It's an okay response, especially during a time right now where there's so much unpredictability and uncertainty. They're so so

many unknowns around what we're experiencing. So when I feel angry, okay, that's okay. I see people doing things that I think are stupid, and I get angry, that's okay. And at the same time, I try not to keep myself in that place of judgment and condemnation because one it doesn't serve me in any way that's helpful. Like what I'm choosing to do through my social media feeds is to create content that offers calmness, that offers information around social distancing.

You know, I'm choosing not to condemn, but but also to speak to the things I believe we should be doing, which is to listen to the experts, to listen to the scientists, to really consider our fellow human beings, to really I posted something recently, there's no such thing as other people's grandparents, And for me, that's just a way of reminding people that our actions are impacting everyone right now.

So the anger for me, I feel my emotions and I allow it to be present, but I try not to stay in that place in terms of how I'm viewing everyone, because I also understand everyone's freaking out in their own ways, and information has been coming through in a way that hasn't always been clear at all, and some people are making choices based on information that they

don't feel is clear. And what I've noticed is the clear the information has been, the less I've been noticing people break the protocols that we're all being told to make, you know. Um. But other than that, I don't know what there is to do with with our anger except allow ourselves to feel it and take control of what we're able to take control of in terms of the

choices we're making. And if there are people in our direct lives, people were in contact with, we're talking to on the phone, who are expressing to us that they're not making smart choices right now, to not stay silent, you know, to really speak up and say, hey, this is what we need to be doing right now, and I hope you'll reconsider what you're doing and consider the health and well being of everybody. Makes a lot of sense.

And I think it is, you know, yeah, allow ourselves to be angry and then but not get lost in And I think that's the trick right now. I think a lot of people are feeling is okay, I'm feeling these things, and I know it's good to feel my emotions, and yet in some cases, boy, I feel like I'm just drowning in them. Yes, absolutely, I think that that

we're all experiencing that to some degree. And so for me, one of the mantra's I've been living with these past days is to go within, because Eric, I'll tell you, every time I am in my heart, I'm in love. So when I'm in the space of my heart, in the energy of my heart, the communication is always the same. In that communication is just love, just love, just love. In that space, there's no fear right in that space,

there is no anger. And that's why I'm retreating to my heart over and over, and I'm also going into my soul. And for me, the difference between the heart center and the soul center. My heart is just commanding me to love, to be in the presence of love because I know when I'm in that energy, I'm connecting to that vibration and that energy within all of us, and I know that it strengthens me. And the soul center for me, is a place of just deep peace

and stillness. When I connect to my soul, I feel connected to divine consciousness, to the understanding that all is okay. And so when I'm in my fear, I'm in my head. And when I'm in you know, my anger, I'm in my head. When I'm in my frustration, I'm in my head. And yes, it's okay and totally okay for us all

to be feeling whatever we're feeling. But when I need a break and when I want to be reconnected to what I know to be true and what I want to be reconnected to that place of peace within with everything that is going on, I go to my soul when I want to be reconnected to the high vibration of love over my heart. And so for some of you listening, you may be wondering, well, how, how, how how do we get there? For me, it's understanding that that space is alive within all of us all the time.

So we are embodied with an ocean of love. We are embodied with an ocean of peace within us. If you're not finding that, I encourage you to seek it, pray to it, to write letters to it, to invite it to be more present in your life right now and in my experience, the more energy I give to finding the love and the peace that lives within me

the more it presents itself to me. So I brought up meditation is the very first thing, and that's one of the ways that I find is a direct channel to get into my heart or to get into my soul. You know, deep connection with others who are willing to go there with you, but seek it out. We are embodied with so much love, and we are embodied with so much knowing, so much wisdom that transcends is any of the fears of our mind, any of the panic

of our mind. And when we're in that place, we are reconnected to what is most true within us, that we are divine beings of peace and love. And the more often I return to that place in my day, the more calm I feel. And I'm certain it's why I won't pretend that I'm calm all through the day. I'm dealing with my own fears and my own anxieties in the face of this, and at the same time, I'm also embodying a lot of peace and a lot

of calm and a lot of trust. And that's not coming from my mind, right, It's coming from a deeper place, a deeper source of wisdom that I believe we all carry within us, and it's the same source wonderful that is a great place for us to wrap up in a really beautiful and powerful idea there, which is, you know, drop into these deeper levels, this vastness that is waiting for us um at at deeper levels underneath our thoughts. It's a beautiful thought and idea. Thank you, Scott. Absolutely,

you're so welcome. Eric. Thank you for doing what you're doing, the work you've been doing, and for doing this right now. My pleasure, and thank you so much for coming on alright. All. Our final guest is Sharon Salzburg, a world renowned Buddhist teacher and meditation retreat leader. Hi, Sharon, thank you so much for taking a few minutes to talk with us again. Well, thank you for doing this. It's a pleasure to talk

with you anytime. Um, what I'm doing with this little episode is I'm just asking people who I respect their thoughts on dealing with um thoughts and emotions, difficult thoughts and emotions during this period. So I'm wondering if you could just share with listeners some ideas you have for you know, how to get through this time with a little bit of sanity and grace. Well, let's hope. So it's difficult, and I think that's maybe the first thing

to acknowledge. It's like you have to give yourself a break and be very forgiving of the things you feel. Maybe you thought you worked at anxiety a long time ago, or you know, whatever it might be, but we feel what we feel. And the idea is really not it's not that helpful to blame yourself, but rather to see if there's a way of relating that could be less entangling,

you know, and less overwhelming. And so I always tell myself remember to breathe, just take a breath, which helps me return to the moment because I found also a lot of like anxiety, for example, will be the cascade of thoughts of future projection. Now this is going to happen, and that's gonna happen, and that's going to happen. And then just coming back, just like take a breath, just

come back. It's actually a tremendous relief. And also things like walking, walking, meditation, even if you're walking back and forth in an apartment, it's like moving the energy through your body and and helping to get more grounded. And of course I believe very strongly in the force of loving kindness, and so whenever we add a sense of isol lation to something we're feeling, it's just going to exacerbate it. And so it's kind of bizarre, I know, in a time of social isolation where we need to

actually have a powerful sense of connection. But I have found that you really can cultivate that kind of connection through something like loving kindness meditation, even though you may not even be seeing anybody else, right right, Yeah, those are all really good, good tips. I think, you know, taking those those deep breaths and just pausing is so helpful. I think another thing that I think is kind of crucialists to understand that you know, you don't have to

do these things just once. I could. Earlier my practice, I used to kind of long for the moment, the great breakthrough experience, and after that it was all smooth sailing. And it kind of doesn't work that way. We're always kind of starting over and starting over, and you will get overwhelmed or you'll get lost, to get incredibly distracted, to get reactive, but you'll find I think if you really can step back and look that you're you're coming

back to center sooner. And sooner. So again it's you know, it's kind of a call to please, don't blame yourself for whatever you're feeling, but let's find what's workable about the situation. Yeah, I'm finding in talking to you know a great number of people. Everybody is having some challenges right now. Even people that we might look at and go, oh, they've got it all figured out now, they're they're afraid to right now, They're distracted right now, They're struggling right now.

And I think that's a really important reminder, like, yeah, of course we all are. Yeah, I think we all are, absolutely And um, you know, some people are in a position where they can actually be of help to somebody. Um, you know, a lot of people tell me either grocer shopping or for elderly person or something like that. But not everyone is in a position to be able to actually do that. But still we can have that profound sense of connection. It will ease some of that kind

of fear and sense of loneliness. What other ideas or

thoughts do you have for people. It's such a bitter irony because it's a little bit like going on a retreat for people who can afford to stay home, uh, you know, which leaves out a lot of people whose reality is that they're still going out there to work because they have to, um, you know, and and so uh if you are staying home, then it does have that characteristic of of being on retreat, which people you know, used to pay for, because there's something about realizing, Okay,

there are many distractions that are not available to me right now. Can I really utilize this time not just to survive it, but to actually deepen something within me? And I think that's actually possible. Well, of course for me, I come back to meditation practice because it's like it's available, it's personal. You know, need a group to do it,

you don't need equipment to do it. It's really using the power over your own mind basically to create some space, you know, since you realize we might have options, like when we're completely consumed with worry or or something like that, or madly thinking about me in the future, you know, we don't see many options. It's like our world just

shuts down. And the more we can change the way we pay attention, which is what meditation is, and get more present, more balanced, more open hearted, um, the more we will see options and action will follow from that. Well, I thought the way you and I might wrap up our time together would have you just lead us through, maybe like a three or four minute meditation loving kindness, or any type of meditation you'd like to guide us on for three or four minutes here to wrap up

our time together. Sure, I'd be happy too. So you can't sit comfortably, I sue, none of you are driving, So eyes open or closed, however you feel most at ease, Loving kindness, meditation is very much a spirit of generosity of the heart. Its gift giving, it's offering. We offer the sense of blessing, of well wishing, and we begin with offering that to ourselves. The way we do it is we choose three or four phrases gently repeat them

over and over again. Phrases like may I be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with these, live with these means, and the things of day to day life not be such a struggle. May I be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with these. Remember, the feeling tone is one of offering. It's gift giving. We're offering this to ourselves. And if you find your attention wandering, that's okay. See if you

can gently let go and come back. I think of somebody that has helped you in the past or is helping you right now, or somebody who when you think of them you smile. They just kind of lift your spirits. Maybe you've never met them. Maybe it's a child, maybe it's an adult, it could be a pet. Even is there someone who when you think of them, you smile.

So if there is, you can bring them here. You get an image of them, or say their name to yourself, get a feeling for their presence, and offer the phrases of living kindness to them. May be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with these, and then all beings everywhere, all people, all creatures, all those in existence, near and far, known and unknown by all beings. Be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with these. So thank you, Thank you, Sharon, Thank you so much. That's a wonderful way for us

to wrap up talking with each other. Thank you. Pleasure to have you back on. Thank If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support now. We are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and

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