Special Episode: 4 Different Journeys to Sobriety

you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life

worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Hi Everybody Today is a special episode. It's a collaboration with Eric and three other guests called the Dry January Collaboration. It includes sober Dave from the One for the Road podcast, Casey from the Hello Someday podcast, and a previous The One You Feed interviewee, Jill from

the Sober Powered podcast. They discussed not only sobriety in general, but also their specific stories and the concept that there are many ways to live a sober life based on one's needs and lifestyle. Welcome to the show, Eric, Dave, and Casey. I thought that we could get started with a a little quick intro of who we are and what your story is. Eric, do you want to start us off? Sure, I'd be glad too. So my name

is Eric Zimmer. I am the host of the One You Feed podcast, which is a interview style podcast where we talk about really what it takes to live a good life. You know, how do we how do we thrive? How do we prosper. I've had the pleasure of having Jill on the show. I've appeared on her show, so there's a quality of guests. We get lots of great guests. You know. My sobriety story started a long time ago.

I got sober for the first time in and it was a homeless heroin addict at that point, and you know, kind of a really low bottom. I mentioned homeless, I weighed a hundred pounds, I had hepatitis C. I was looking at potentially going to jail for fifty years. Things were not going well. So I got sober. We're going to talk more about how all that happened later in

the episode. But I got sober, and I stayed sober for about eight years, and then a couple of different things happened, and I end it up going back out and drinking. I didn't go back to heroin, but I was drinking. I was smoking marijuana. And eventually, by the fact that I'm appearing on a podcast about sobriety, you can tell that that second experiment did not end well, and so I had to get sober again. But it was a very different experience because the first time was

this extremely low bottom. The second time I was on the outside thriving. I was making more money than I've ever made. I had just been promoted into the best position I've ever had, had a nice car and a nice house, and all those things were all in place, and yet I knew on the inside I was just as sick. So I got sober, and fast forward from there, I had a career in the software business. I founded a solar energy company and that failed, And when that

failed is when I sort of launched this podcast. And since launching the podcast, I've gone on to do lots of one on one coaching with people from around the world. I created a program called Spiritual Habits, and I have the podcast. So I think that's my quick version. Thank you. Yeah, it's hard to summarize it all in in two seconds? Did I stay within my a lotted time? You did? Dave? Do you want to tell us a little bit about who you are and in your sobriety journey? Yeah? Sure,

thanks Jill, Thanks Eric. My name is Dave Wilson, aka Sober Dave. Yeah, my story started back when I was fourteen years old and I had the misfortune of my mom leaving the family home and I got in with a group of lads from school. Actually that led me down a path of stealing, drinking, bunking off school. You know, I didn't actually finish school, and then I kind of lived in normal late teens early twenties. Well we'll go out,

but I would work hard and just drinking weekends. But when I reached thirty two, I was introduced to a local pub in the UK. There was an old fashioned pub, you know, with a sloon bar and a public bar, and the public bar was where all the builders and workmen used to go to, and the other sideways, so listers and you know, their suits, we used to call them.

And I used to use the excuse of actually getting work from the pub because I was in the carpet industry and I was called Dave the carpet So I always used to say, you know, the work, the money I get from the world would pay for my drinking, so there's not a problem. But the table is where that. It was never quite enough in the pub, so I

used to get takeouts and I started drinking indoors. And back then you could get a cider called diamond white, and it was eight point four, and I started drinking indoors and then that kind of led onto my health declining, putting on white. When I was fourty years old, I moved away from the pub and I realized then the pub near me wasn't the same, so I started drinking

indoors all the time. I put a more weight, so I googled what alcohol has the least amount of calories and that pop vodka, and I was never really a spirit man. So I went from half a bottle which lasted me about half an hour, to a bottle two, then liter, and to be honest, I don't remember my faulties at all. I was drinking alter and I for a long time passing out, blacking out, but I was still functioning, getting up, going to work, drunk still half

the time. And it got to my fifties that the doctor basically said to me that if I didn't stop, I would die. I didn't stop, and I ended up like Eric, not the same, I imagine, But I made myself homeless for a few days by going a role. I vanished. No one knew where I was, and I drank in the bubble day and then went and ank for coroner freezing cold Beach and nearly died there because it was April in the UK, it was freezing, I was paralytic, and it still wasn't enough for me to

stop drinking. But January two thousand nineteen came, I had an epiphany and I just stopped. And I will say that I shouldn't have stopped the way I did for medical reasons. You know, I should have reduced, but I stopped, and since then everything has changed. I'll talk a bit more about it later, but I can honestly say it saved me and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself. Ever, lots of things have happened since I've

become sober. Thank you, Dave. Casey, do you want to give us a quick intro to who you are and how you got started in sobriety? Yeah, absolutely so. I'm Casey McGuire Davidson. I live in Seattle, Washington. I'm a Life in Sobriety coach, and I host the podcast Asked, the Hello Sunday Podcast for sober curious women. But before I started that, I was sort of a self declared red wine girl for many, many, many years. My story

is a little bit different than Dave. I spent twenty years I was climbing the corporate ladder in big companies and small startups in Seattle, and got married, had kids at a house, you know, all the usual things. But I was pretty consistently drinking a bottle of wine or more every night. I was sort of the seven nights a week, three nights a year drinker. I sort of

varied where I drank, you know, just for variety. So I drink it happy hours, you know, out with my coworkers, I drink on date nights with my husband's or girls nights. But most of it was me coming home from work with my kids after picking them up for daycare, and sort of a glass while cooking dinner, a last while doing the dishes, and then finishing the bottle on the couch while watching TV, you know, to quote unquote relax or whatever. Nobody really said anything to me about it.

It was just sort of like part of who I was. I was always a big drinker since college, and I think that I had so many other things distracting, like what Eric talked about from you know, there's nothing to see here. I had a good job, I was successful, I had a good marriage and friends, and my kids

were good. And at the same time, I would have the three am wake ups, and I would you know, hate putting my eyeliner on my bloodshot eyes in the morning and not want anyone to look at me too closely when I was at the best stop with my five year old, and yet I promised myself I'd take a break, and by four pm rationalized that, you know it's been a hard day, a good day, it doesn't matter whatever it is. So that was pretty much my story.

I quit drinking almost seven years ago. Again, like Dave said, it was literally my worst case scenario in my life. I desperately didn't want to quit. I wanted to figure out how to moderate, and it's been the best decision I've ever made. I love that. Thank you, Casey. So a quick intro for me. I'm Jill. I host a silver Powered podcast. I just celebrated three years of sobriety in early November, and I was a solo drinker. Like Dave,

I loved drinking by myself. I used to say drinking by myself was my jam is my favorite thing to do. Even though my husband never made a comment about my drinking or thought that I had a problem or needed to drink less or stop, I still preferred drinking alone because then I could just really go for it, and those were always the worst nights too. At the same time, I was also a daily drinker pretty much right from the start, and I had a lot of mental health

concept quince is for my drinking. I had a lot of depression, which eventually became suicidal thoughts, and that was what finally pushed me into sobriety. I spent so many years thinking that I could just learn to moderate and control it if I tried hard enough. For I found the right strategy, and eventually the suicidal thoughts became so powerful that I just accepted I just can't, I can't

do it, and I gave up. And now it's been three years, and I agree with all of you the best decision that I ever made, even though it's hard, and even though it felt scary. So I think we've all mentioned reasons why it was hard for us to stop. But Eric, what do you think was the main thing that held you back from stopping the second time around? Well, I think the thing that held me back in all cases was simply a huge part of me not wanting to.

You know, I don't think you get to the level that any of us got in our relationship with substances if they are not doing something somewhat profound for you in some way, right, they have been a friend of sorts, not in the long term a good friend, but certainly in the short term, and in many moments, at least for me, was a good friend. So what helped me

back was not wanting to have to quit. And we all talked a little bit about this idea of moderation, right, which I think in a a they say it's the great obsession of every abnormal drinker that will someday be able to control our drinking. Right, And we try all kinds of different strategies. And if you're like me and you're mixing multiple substances in you've got even more variations to try, no drinking but only weed, only weed on the weekends, or alcohol in the weekends, weed in the morning.

You know, only taking valume three days a week. I mean, you just can keep spinning this game around and around.

So I would say that was the biggest thing for me was coming to terms with, over a long period of time, the fact that I could not find a way to make alcohol and drugs work in my life, and eventually getting to the point where I realized, well, the answer probably has to be abstinence, which is the worst possible answer, at least for me, particularly the second time, because I knew what was going to happen if I

couldn't figure out how to moderate my drinking. I knew I was going to go back to the twelve step program, and I was gonna have to give it up completely, and I was desperate not to do that, so I really tried hard to moderate. So I think that's the most concrete answer. On the other hand, take more of my Buddhist perspective. Right, Buddhism talks about this moment is

here because of all these causes and conditions that arise. Right. So, on another level, in addition to what I just said, the things that would support my sobriety didn't come together till they came together, you know. And those were internal to me things, those were external to me things. Those were support that I was able to get. So all that stuff sort of had to line up in the right way at the right time for me to achieve

something like permanent sobriety. Dave, you mentioned that you had a lot of moments that should have encouraged you to start. But what do you think was the main thing that kept you trying to keep drinking in your life? I used our cooles coping strategy. I stopped enjoying our cohole a long time ago, to be honest, so I would numb myself out really quickly I'll get him from work and I would pull the largest vodka you could imagine to numb me straight away, and I will continue like that.

I would never sit there sipping it, watching the telly with my feet up. Then, Conald, this is great. It was purely doing a job I intended it to do. And after forty years of drinking, it's a tough decision to make to end that relationship. And I compare it to a relationship that you've been in because it wasn't always awful in the beginning. It was fun. It gave

me confidence and it made me funny. I used to really love having a drink, but during my forties and fifties it was purely there to numb out the pain. But I wasn't ever ready to address the pain. So the first time I tried to stop, I lasted a few days and I just couldn't do it. And I just put it down to the fact I wasn't ready. So I had to change my mindset. And after that, in April, I had to go back to the doctors.

And I will add to that as well, the doctor had doubled my antidepressants just before that happened, right, so I was a bit psychotic, I think, and I was on four medications. I was on tablets for my cholesterol. That was quite hard. My blood pressure was eighty four over a hundred and twenty six, and the doctor said, I'm a walking heart attack and I was only fifty four. Then I was a hundred thirty kg. I had acid reflux daily. I would project over from the acid without warning.

You know. I was, basically, I think, on the brink of death. And that didn't stop me because I still wasn't ready to deal with what was going on in my life. And it is when I sand epiphany. It was almost like a friend text me on the scent for January and he said to me, how do you feel like joining me to stop drinking alcohol three months? And when I got this text, I had a hangover obviously. Monday morning I looked here and literally burst out laughing.

I thought, I kind of give up three days, right, But something happened that day. It trickled in slowly, and then I remember pulling over in a lay by later on that day and I sat there and I thought, I wonder where I would be in three months. I wonder how my health would be, how my relationships would be. You know how I would feel every day if I was three months of out alcohol and I text him and I said, let's go. So that was it that day.

And do you know what the weird side of me often wonders, I wonder what my last drink was because I don't remember because the night before I hadn't planned it. And it's almost like I want to go back and revisit that last drink and go that's it, because I'm pretty sure that I ain't going to do it again, trust me. So it was pure semendipity. I think that

I stopped drinking. But do you know I add to that, there's a thing about spontaneous sobriety, and you could label mine is that because I gave up on the day. But I think there was a lot of subliminal thinking going on along the lines of I know, I've got to stop. So it was psychologically preparing myself for that day as well, Dave. I was actually thinking about my last drink over the weekend, So it's funny that you

mentioned that, and I was reflecting on it. I don't remember the exact one either, but I was reflecting on it, and I was like it probably wasn't even like anything great, you know, it was just like a stupid drink in a dive bar. And and I didn't know in that moment that that was the very last one. So thank you for sharing that. Casey, what do you think was the main thing that held you back from quitting drinking? Yeah?

I mean I was laughing too, and you guys were saying you don't remember your last drink or you didn't know at the time that it was that, because I didn't either, I mean my last night drinking. And we can talk about this, but it was so uneventful, you know, typical bottle of line on the couch, you know, same things turned on scandal or some show, and my husband said to me, I think you watched this last night, and I said, no, I didn't. You know, you're wrong.

He doesn't pay attention whatever. And I got to the very end of the hour, and something about that was familiar, and I was just like, oh my god, my brain literally did not record an entire hour, which wasn't unusual, and yet I was so sure he was wrong. Like I was just like, you're completely wrong, and so you know, you don't know anyone listening to this when you're like, oh my gosh, I have to be ready for day one. You don't know when your last day drinking is going

to be. Joe, you asked me what held me back from getting sober sooner? Think the biggest idea in my mind that helped me back was that I was quote unquote not that bad. You know, I knew I drank a lot. I knew I drank way more than other people did. But everyone I knew drank, and you know

that's by design we surround ourselves with drinkers. But I literally didn't know a single person in my social life who loved drinking the way I did and had stopped and said that life was better and they were happier on the other side. And so I had this sort of dichotomy, which I think so many people do, that either you are a quote unquote alcoholic and therefore you need to stop, or there's nothing to see here. You just abuse alcohol. You need to get better at moderating it.

And it was so ingrained in my identity. You know who I was as a red wine girl, and it was shorthand for everything from I have two little kids, but I'm still cool. It was part of business networking, It was part of how I sort of expressed, yeah, I have fun, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I think that what held me back. Obviously I did not want to stop drinking, right, I loved it, and I think for a lot of us who drink,

we love it. But also it was the idea that like I kind of by the end knew that this was going nowhere good and that it was unsustainable the way I was drinking. But very clearly in my mind, I was like I could probably string this out a couple more years, you know, like if I'm going to have to stop, I can probably you know, play it out for a while longer. Yeah, held me back for a long time, and I wish it hadn't. Joe, what

about you? Everything you guys said, definitely, But I think the main thing for me was what it meant about me if I had to stop. That was the thing that I was fighting against the most, because I thought that people who had to quit drinking were weak, old losers who can't control themselves. Like I believed everything bad that you've ever heard out there about alcoholics. So I didn't want to be that. I didn't want people to

attach all of those things to me. So I was scared to give up, you know, the fun which barely existed anymore, and connecting with other people. And I thought I was like this little wine connoisseur who who knew all these fancy things and went to wine tastings, And so I didn't want to give up that, But it was more like what it meant about me if I had to stop, So I was fighting against that. So if I could just learn to moderate, then I wouldn't

be a loser. And I would shame myself when I wouldn't moderate, Like if if you can't figure this out, you're going to have to stop for good, and everybody's going to say you're an alcoholic and a loser and you have no self control. So I would like threaten myself with the stigma, and that only made it worse.

But that was what held me back. The other thing I'm struck by, you know, listening to your stories and mine also is I think another thing that holds us back is sort of the destructive spiral of addiction, which is I don't feel good about myself, so I take a drink and then I behave in ways that I don't feel good about, or I have a lot of stigma towards myself for drinking, which then makes me feel worse, which then causes me to need to take another because

I feel so bad, which then causes me to feel worse. And it's just this slow, gradual eroding of who we are and this shame that creeps its way in also, And I think that's the other insidious part of this that makes it so hard. Yeah, I think what I love the most about not drinking is just the absence of that horrible voice in my head, the self loathing,

the berating every morning. Just to have that be gone into wake up and think of nothing but the smell of the coffee or whether it's raining or you know,

all that stuff is pretty incredible. You know what I think as well, it's the time that you get back in your head because you have the usual thing in the morning when you say you're not going to drink that day, and then you start to negotiate throughout the day, right, and then by the afternoon there is so I might just have one, and then you get your two bottles or your leat with volca now in full way you're going to do it and then it starts again. So

what Eric sand about the hamster wheel, isn't it? I called it the hamster word of doom, where it's so impossible to get off because you go through the cycle, don't you have repeat, repeat, repeat behavior and it just brings you lower and lower and lower and meeting alcohol more and more. And I thought that the only good part of my life was like those first two hours where I was drinking and I thought that my actual

life was bad and then drinking. So it really just tricks you into thinking you suck and the drinking is good. Yours lasted two hours, Jill, Mine lasted about ten minutes drinking. Well, that's because you had thirty more years on her. Jill would have gotten down to the two second mark. Thankfully, I still kept my two hours. Yeah, hey everyone, this

is Jenny. One of my absolute favorite things is when we hear from listeners of the show, and something we hear quite often is that one of the biggest obstacles to feeding the Good Wolf is remembering. Because life is busy and we get caught up in routines and we're all on autopilots, so much of the time. So to help with that, we've started sending a couple of text messages after each episode is released to listeners who sign up for them, and it's something we're offering for free.

A listener wrote us and said, the message has caused me to pause, even if just for a moment, and helped me to remember important bits of wisdom, bringing them to the forefront of my mind. Remembering is the hardest part, and the text messages are super helpful. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to one you feed dot net slash text and sign up for free. Eric, when you stopped, you mentioned that you started with a A the first time.

What do you think you did the second time that really helped you to get sober? I did twelve step programs in both cases. I mean the first time, I chose that because I went to a rehab and that's what they did there. And honestly, in Columbus, Ohio, there was no other game in town, like very literally there was no other choice. So that's where I got sober. And so then when I realized I needed to get sober the second time, that just seemed like the place

to go. You know, this is fifteen years ago, so I don't know. Two thousand and seven, maybe there still wasn't a lot in the way of alternatives in the way there are now. So I just went back because that's what I knew. I knew how to do it, I knew it worked. You know, there's lots of things about twelve step programs that many people find objectionable, and

I find some of those things objectionable too. But the thing about them, the power I think that they have for many people, and certainly was for me, was in Columbus, Ohio, there were hundreds and hundreds of meetings a week, so if I needed support and help, it was available in person for me nearly any time. That is a real strong advantage to it that I think, at least in my case, offset what many of the disadvantages are. And maybe we'll get into that as we talk about how

we get sober. But I did it twelve step both ways, but largely due to lack of choice. I think today, in today's world, I would probably very likely have gone a different direction. Whether that would be good or bad, I have no idea. I can't say. I just know what did work. For me. But I do think the fact that there are lots of alternatives now is great, and I think that's part of why we all wanted to do this episode, was to show that there's not

one way to do this. I think that's really important. YEA. And even though a lot of people think that a A is the only option, if you start exploring and googling or hanging out in the sober community, you'll see

there are lots of different options. But I thought that A A was my only choice too, And I remember my biggest fear about that was that someone would recognize me, which was so stupid because they're there for the same things reason I'm there, But that was my main thing, Like, I can't go because someone's going to recognize me there and then they'll know. That is a hugely common thing.

I mean, it really is. I mean, I think stepping into any new group is always hard under any circumstances, right, particularly for those of us who are a little bit more shy, perhaps are introverted. But then you add that stigma of addiction alcohol to it. Boy, that is a very brave move. Walking into whatever support you find the first time is a really big and brave move. I totally agree, Dave. You mentioned that you had spontaneous sobriety a bit, even though it was a mindset shift for

a while leading up to it. When you did get sober and you did decide to stop with your friend for three months, what did you do for support and why did you do that over other things? As you five say at that moment, and he thought it was I ain't a friend of mine. Actually she was kind to a a local to me. And ironically I didn't care if anyone knew I was because I came out the closet straight away and I thought, I don't care

because it was my way of dealing with it. I wanted everyone to know that I was getting help and I needed help, so I had no issue with that. But I went there about five times, and towards the end it didn't quite sit with me and I couldn't pinpoint it. And now I'm four years sober. I think maybe it was the wrong meeting, that I should have mixed and matched and tried other meetings and met other

people because I went to the same thing. But I created my page on Instagram and started posting my story and there were a lot of people that were messaging me about it because I'm a bit older, and I say how it is, and people seem to like that. And then I saw an event that was held with a few guests. There was a couple of offers there and whatever. So I bought a ticket and I got on the train to go to of that, and normally I would have pre drinks, you know, turn up a

bit of Dutch courage. And I got there and it was really rough this area, and I was walking up and down. I think, I don't know if I'm going. I don't know if I can do it. Eventually I plucked up the courage and it was packed in there, and I met all kinds of people. There were a couple of bikers in there, you know, people from all walks of life. And I remember after all this talking was done, the speeches and whatever and the interviews, I left there and got on the train and I thought,

oh my god, there were so many normal people. I didn't know what to expect. But it was like every once normal, you know, I feel part of something now. And from that day we stayed in touch and as you know, Jill, I mean, we're all on our podcast we talked to people all over the world. I've done fifteen our liver funds globally, all three people I've met for the community. So the community is a huge poll for me, even now after four years and what have

it down? Die and I'm what posed and people come in like yourselves and say dive, you know, come on my get food to die And you know, the community on social media has been a real savor for me. I didn't think any of us were normal either, Dave. So same feeling, Casey. When you stopped drinking, what did you do for support? And then why did you choose

that over your other options? Yeah, I was resonating with what Eric said about the options available when he stopped drinking, both the first time and sort of what he knew was available the second time. So, like many people, I'm sure listening to this. When I finally stopped drinking seven years ago, that wasn't kind of my first rodeo. I guess. I tried to stop drinking ten years ago when my son was five, and you know, I did it because I'd really gotten to the point where I felt like

I couldn't cope with my life. I felt like I couldn't cope with my job, my marriage, my kid, even though I loved him more than anything, and so I was like, I have to get sober to get some clarity on what specifically isn't working in my life. And I went to a therapist and he was sober through a twelve step program. I joined it on my group just in the very very early days of that stuff a decade ago so, and people there invited me to go to a and I went with them and met

really incredible people. It turned out not to be my path for various reasons, and I'm sure part of it was I wanted to go back to drinking, but part of it was sort of the structure and the approach and the rituals that weren't necessarily the direction that I wanted to go. So I went back to drinking, and the second time I came BacT seven years ago, so just three years later, the world had changed quite a bit,

which is incredible. I was still a member of my online not drinking group, but as I was debating quitting drinking or not, people recommended sober coaching to me, and that ended up being my path. I went, you know, after that fairly remarkable night of not remembering the shows I watched. I had the three am wake up. I felt like garbage. In the morning, I went into my office and went online to look up this sober coach and signed up that day at ten am. And in

the spirit of support is available anywhere. She lived in Paris, we emailed every day. She had audios you could listen to. It was bell from tired of thinking about drinking, and we had coaching calls. I'd go out to my car for thirty minutes in the middle of my work day. I think that worked for me for a couple of reasons. Eric. I love that you said there's in person support available at any time through a twelve step meeting, and I

think that's incredible. Also, as a mom of an eight year old and a two year old with a full time job, it was difficult. My husband coached after his job and and it just didn't work for my schedule. But being able to tap into online groups and email my sober coach or you know, listen to audios when I was driving into work or walking to coffee or rocking my baby to sleep at night, that worked for me. And so the other thing I loved about coaching was there was no labels. That was a big hold up

for me. I didn't have to call myself an alcoholic. It was also that I needed help with the big things, like and for me, the big things were who am I if I don't drink? What are all my limited beliefs about life without alcohol and what it'll be like? And like Jill said, what will people think of me? But it was also the really small block and tactling, like, oh my god, I'm going to a dinner party. What am I going to say to the host? I am driving home from work and I desperately want to pick

up a bottle of wine? What do I do? Instead? I am angry at my husband and my two year old ist crying what do I do? And it was those like really practical things that I needed help with. Yeah, and we don't realize how hard the everyday things can be, especially I get mad at my husband too, so I get that and a lot of other people. I used to just drink at people all the time, and then I didn't realize that until I got sober and I had the urge to then drink at those people. And

you have to learn how to just handle everyday things. Yeah, Casey, I love that you sort of counter the in person support with what you needed, because what we ultimately need is what fits into our life and what works with our characteristics and our person reality. And like I said, I think the fact that there are more options is an amazing thing. I mean, the second time I got sober, it was in person support is what I had, and I had a really difficult time because I had kids.

Same thing. I'm going to take my kids to you know this in the evening, I'm coaching soccer. I'm doing that. Actually I never coached soccer. I'm terrible at soccer, but I did coach baseball, and you know, so then for me, it was like, all right, i gotta get a lunch meeting in and then I'm having to rush to the meeting and you know that, can I get out of work in time? So yeah, I mean, there's a lot of advantages to this convenience. And Jill, I'd love to kind of hear maybe what your path was. So I

didn't really do much in the beginning. I stopped and I did that because I realized that drunk Jill, my alter ego, would probably do something really bad to me if I were ever drunken alone, which, as I said in the beginning, was my favorite way to drink. So I felt really scared for myself, and I accepted that I can never drink ever again for the rest of my life. And I didn't take it a one day at a time approach. And because I said forever, not that I was like cool with it, but I accepted it.

I felt like I didn't need support, so I didn't do anything. I was in like a Facebook group or two and and I kind of hung around there and like posted a little or commented a little, but I didn't do much. I listened to podcasts um when I quit for good, I binged all of craigbeck stuff because he makes me laugh. I love all of his thoughts

on moderation. He's so funny. But eventually, in these Facebook groups, I started kind of sharing, and at that point, a couple of months in, I still thought like I was the only one that had my experiences, and I was afraid to tell people about it because I kept saying, if I tell people that I used to feel suicidal when I drink, They're gonna like call I don't know who you call on me and I'm going to get like the seventy two hour hold and like this whole

I was really afraid that that was a completely unique experience and that there would be some consequences if I shared it, so I kept a lot of things to myself, and then eventually I got comfortable sharing, and so many people told me like me too, and that helped me, and I was like, wow, it wasn't just me, Like that isn't a weird, abnormal experience to have. And then I just continued hanging out with Facebook people until the

world shutdown and we all went into quarantine. I was about four months sober and I worked in a lab, so I always had to be at work and I have liked therapy at that point for like ten years, but I felt awkward about like leaving work at the same time every week, and like maybe people would know I was going to therapy, like, oh my gosh, shocking.

So one goes to therapy, right And when we all went home and I couldn't bring my lab work home with me, I had a lot of time and therapists were now meeting with people virtually, so I started doing therapy around four months sober. So that's when like I finally did something and got support. And up until then I was angry. I would go out to social things and I would cry afterwards from the stress. Like I still wasn't drinking, but I I wasn't doing fabulous at it.

I was just not drinking. And through therapy, like I learned, why are you so angry all the time? Why do you want to drink at people? Like? Why is it so hard for you to think about like shameful things? And why do you believe you're a loser if you don't drink? So I learned kind of like what was going on in my own head, and that was what helped me the most. And then over time the rage started to calm down and I could learn to manage

my emotions a bit. But I had no tools or skills when I stopped drinking, because my only coping skill, like Dave was saying, was just drinking. You have such a sweet disposition, Jill. I can't see rageful Jill at this juncture in my life. But I'm not doubting her existence. I'm just saying it's a very stark contrast to what we get, you know, of you now, Yeah, everybody says that, but she does exist. Yeah, my husband would say the same thing. My husband can tell you, guys, she does.

She does appear sometimes, and the way that she appears as like, all, We'll be sitting on the couch and I'll stand up to like rant at him about something and it doesn't even have to be like rage directed at him, but he's still sees it even if it's directed at other people. Yeah, serious business. Put down your phone and get ready for a lecture. So for you, guys, it seems like it wasn't that hard for you to

get support. I think for me, I had all of these beliefs that it meant something bad about me if I needed help. Did you ever feel that way or did you just feel that support would help you so you wanted it? Oh. I think I came about it via a long path, and I think most of us do in the same way. That there's this moderation thing right where I'm going to moderate this, I'm gonna figure this out. There's also this idea that I can do this on my own. I should be able to do

this on my own. And so my experience was lots of attempts of that, right, you know. I think when I first started really drinking to the first time I got sober was not that long, right, Maybe I don't know six years now. Again, I have a tendency to burn the house down quick, which is I suppose an

advantage in many ways. But I think from early on I started knowing something's not quite right, and so I started trying in my own way thousands of little moderation quitting experiments, and so I don't think I wanted support. I think that in my case, I ended up in a detox center because I was in big trouble. I'd gone to a n n A before that and just it didn't do anything for me. It just had no real effect on me. But I ended up in a place where I was just desperate, and then I was

kind of surrounded by support. And I think in that process I started to see like, oh, this feels good. This feels good to walk into a room and have other people tell their story and me be like, oh, yeah, that's a lot like mine. I don't feel so alone or to share some part of me, and then everybody look at me and be like, yeah, of course, yeah,

I felt that. So I think it was a I don't really want it, but I started getting exposed to it, and as I got exposed to it more, it started I started to notice that A it worked and be it felt good. But I don't think I wanted it. I think I'm a little bit like Dave in that my outward identity was so alcohol and addiction focused that there was no shame for me. If there was any shame for me and getting help, it was from the people around me who were like, what are you a quitter?

You know, I mean, like that kind of shame. You know. It wasn't from the rest of the world being like, oh my god, you've got a problem. It was from the people in the trenches with me who were like, what you're going to a A Are you kidding me? You know. That's where I felt the pressure. So it's kind of the opposite direction. Dave, you said that you were proud to get support. What made you feel that way. I've always been interested in how we think. I've always

had a real passion for becoming a therapist. One day, so when I was drinking, I actually signed up to a course trying to be a therapist and then go onto university and part of that was because when, as I said before, when I was at school, I literally failed everything and left before I was due to leave. And I've always had this thing that I am ill, educated, thick, useless, can't do anything. So I've done basic jobs, but I've got by because I think we'll all agree when we

go through this addiction, become incredibly resilient. So I did two years at college doing a course to become a therapist, and I learned a lot. I learned a lot about listening skills theory, but surprise, surprise, I've failed miserably because I used to get drunk whilst doing my homework. I thought it was a good idea to have four or

five pints per even like my map book. And then I would do a fifteen hundred word dissertation thinking it's the best thing ever and put it in think yeah, I smashed that, and then be hold into the office saying what the hell is this? So I failed that? But do you know what I was saying about my sobriety. You know, the first year was just outside lockdown, but in lockdown, I believe education is key, and quite often, Jill I had people toward draw a podcast because they're

short as science based. My podcast is more life stories, you know, so it gives a bit of variation there. And I decided to do a course on becoming a Gray Area drinking coach. Like Casey has said how important it was for her to have a sobriety coach. And you know what, I learned more in those few months

and I did about life itself. I learned about the nervous system, about all the unique things that we need to put in our sober tool box, you know, to help us, and also the power of accountability as well. And I flew through that, loved every minute of it, and then set up as a sobriety coach, and you know what, working with people that starting out or like you know, the second time around. And I learned myself

from people, do you know what I mean? I learned about their journeys and even on my podcast, you know, I love talking to people about what they've been through. So for me, that education was so important for me. And as we all know, every week we learned something new. And this journey is never linear and it never will be. I look at it like riding a bike up hill. Some days you want a straight with the son out and others. You head down. He'll like that. And it's

pouring the rain. You either photo bike and of bushes or you keep peddling, you know, and trust me, In the last few months, I've been peddling up hill, but I'm still not drinking, so that's a bonus. Dave. I also thought that drinking helped me study and do my homework. Um really was convinced, actually did it every time. I would love to see some of those essays, Dave. I think it would really be special if you can find them. Probably got them somewhere, but that being the Elector has

been somewhere. That's your second book, Dave. He thought, Joe, I thought it was interesting when you said about Okay, I knew this was just it. I was never going to drink again, that I needed to stop forever, because I think definitely that thought was one of the things that helped me back for a very long time. And so when I finally stopped drinking for the last time, one of the things that appealed to me is that it was a hundred day challenge with a coach with support.

And what helped me about that was it wasn't I'm going to try to moderate, I'm only going to have to drinks. I'm only going to drink once a week. It wasn't one day at a time, but it also wasn't forever, So you know, I just had to go on faith that if I didn't drink for a days, I would feel better and I would look back at the way I was living with the drinking and the bad memories and the hangovers and the three am wake ups and the anxiety and say, oh my god, I

never want to go back to that again. I can't believe that was my normal and that is what happened. But I think that if I had said forever, I would go out to dinner and see a woman at the table next to me with a glass of bread wine and just be like, I am never going to have that again, and therefore I'm gonna drink one last time, right, And I think that that would have helped me back from ever getting the distance I needed from alcohol. When you talk about support, I think there were two pieces

that I needed. One the online support of knowing that there were lots and lots of people out there, specifically women, mothers, people who worked out there like me who also struggled with alcohol and their husband's drink and all their friends drenk right, I was like, okay, they have the same set of problems I have, which is different than other people, and that's okay. There's still pressures. But not only that.

Someone said to me, and I think it's so true that there are sort of two sets of problems that you solve for when you stopped drinking, and the first one is sort of the aftermath problems, which are the hangovers, the sleep, the defensiveness, the self loathing, the bad talk like that gets solved pretty quickly, but then you have the underlying problems. And so for me, I think I

needed layers of support. So in the beginning, I needed the practical advice like how do I not drink on a Friday night, how do I tell my husband I'm not doing this? How do I go to a work happy or our business trip. And then, like you, Jill, I started therapy four months in and it was because I had had a major panic anxiety episode and I was really upset because I thought that by quitting drinking my anxiety would go away. And I was like, oh my god, I gave up the thing I love more

than anything in this entire world. And I'm not fixed, but it was the first time I could see it clearly and go to a therapist weekly and start to dig into why am I feeling this anxiety and get on medication while also not counteracting that with a bottle of linea night. And what's amazing is I actually got diagnosed with a mild mood disorder that I'm sure I've had my entire life. But I wouldn't have figured that out if I was still drinking. I would just blame

myself for everything. So I mean support started with an online group and a coach, and then I added exercise, and then I added therapy, and I added medication, and then after that figured out some boundaries. So you need support for each stage of your army. That's what I found. I love that. That's amazing and I see that all the time that we quit drinking and we think like that's it. Now, I'm better, Now everything should be good,

and then it's shocking when things still aren't good. It can be like really confusing and lead a lot of people back because why bother, right if things don't get better immediately, why bother giving up my favorite thing. So thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, that's a really important point, I think, which is that some people feel better almost immediately upon quitting drinking. Other people feel almost

immediately worse, and so knowing that is really important. And we hear about the pink cloud in early sobriety a lot, and it's true for many people there is a pink cloud. There is that great relief that this thing, you know, this guillotine that's been hanging over my head all these years, someone has just wheeled it away and it's not here anymore, and there's a great relief. And then slowly life sort

of starts to trickle back in. But we all have underlying issue is you don't get to the point with alcohol and drugs that many of us get to. That's not generally the sign of a well adjusted personality structure. Right, There's things we don't know how to deal with, we don't know how to cope with. So I love that idea. Also, Casey, that you said about support at different stages of the journey and needing different things. But I think it's really important.

I always say to people, don't confuse what getting sober is like with what it's like to be sober, because for me, getting sober is a misery. It is a deep misery. It feels like being torn apart inside because one part of me desperately is like, I can't do this. The other part of me is like, but I have to do this, and then there's no relief from the substance to at least dampen that down a little bit. So getting sober for me is misery. However, being sober

for me, I mean it's good enough. It's what I've done the vast majority of my adult life at this point, and it's really been a great thing. But I think those are two really important points you both just brought up there. I think it's so sign landmarks because for me, the first year was all about stopping drinking physically, and I got up to the first year, and then I celebrated my sub bursary and it was almost like a week or two after that I went through the whole

feeling of what now you know? And I related that to maybe pregnancy, where there's a big build up to the birth right and then the baby is born and then two or three weeks later the phone stopped ringing, the baby is crying in the night, and you're like, oh my god, on my my own and I felt, I really don't know what to do now. And I'm having more and more people come to me now with this feeling. I call it the second phase of sobriety,

where they've actually got used to not drinking. They've told all their friends they don't drink, and they've experienced holidays, Birthdays, Christmas all without drinking, and then all of a sudden, it's like I don't know who I am, I don't know what I'm doing, you know. And often that's an important thing, as I said previously, that it's never linear

and it's an important thing. The landmarks can be really triggering. Yeah, that's really interesting, Dave, because I think the first time around, I was in a twelve step program and we hand out coins at thirty sixty nine days a year. There's a big focus on that, and I think there's a lot of benefit in that. However, it is a double edged sword, right, and the double edged sword of it is a we invest too much belief that at a

certain point a year then everything will be great. Right, So we're building towards this big thing, and it's just another day. And then there's the other, which is that if you're not achieving perfect sobriety, you feel like you're making no progress based on those milestones, which can be very disheartening. You know, when I came back the second time, I had had eight years sober before, so counting three

days just felt depressing. You know, Okay, well i've got I've got a week now, yeah, but you used to have eight years. You know, I've got a month now, yeah, but it's not a year. It was just all so I finally just was like, forget it. I often get confused how many years I am sober because I just have paid so little attention to it. I have a friend I'm like, was it two thousand seven? Was that what it was? Was it two thousand and six? Because for me, those milestones just they got in the way

after a certain point. So I think finding your relationship to them that works for you and holding them somewhat lightly. Also for me, the thirteen month milestone was the most anticlimactic, boring, like it was thirteen months. I woke up and I'm like, huh, I don't feel anything about this. I don't feel excited about it. I don't feel like anyone would care about it, and it was weird, and then it happened again at fourteen. I'm like, I don't think fourteen is really that exciting either.

And after that build up, like the eleventh month for me, every single day was so exciting because it's like, oh, twenty days until I'm my one year, five more days, and then after the year it's like you crash again. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's important. You know, Eric, you said about celebrating milestones in the twelve step program and how that's helpful. I mean, I think we always need something to look forward to. I think that just

makes us happier before, during, and after. But what you're looking forward to needs to shift. I mean I still for my annual sober versary, I guess I take the day off of work, I do exactly what I want. I planned something for myself because even though people in my life, no, I mean they know because I tell them that it's coming up, because I want them to like acknowledge it, but they don't get it, you know,

they don't get it's a big deal. So for my one year, I went to as she Recovers yoga event in Seattle and was gathered with all these women, and you know, it was just really special. But then the next day I went to Mexico with my family and it was my first big sober vacation. But I think that, you know, my year two, I was just living. You know, the first year you're learning how to do everything, and

the second year, I was just living. But I really focused on joy, so just planning all the little things that would make me happy. So I got kittens and you know, took up doing a triathlon again, and just little things that made me happy that we're sort of incompatible with being drunk and passed out on my couch. Thank you guys so much for having this conversation with

me and sharing everything. This was very insightful and I think we all have very different experiences, but there's a lot of similarities too in the way that we think, in the way we've approached things. If someone wants to learn more about you and connect with your work, Eric, where can they go do that? When you feed dot net, oh any y o u f e ed dot net or look for the one you feed pod cast anywhere you get your podcast, you'll notice it. It has a

little two wolf heads on it. It's fairly distinctive. Thank you and Dave. Where can people connect with you and your work? Sure? My podcast is One for the Road and you can find that on all your podcast platforms and all my other details, my coaching, my book, everything on my instagram at Soberive. Thank you, Dave and Casey. Where can we connect with your work? Yeah? My podcast is called the Hello Someday Podcast and you can find

that anywhere you listen. And my website is Hello Someday Coaching dot com and I've got a bunch of free guides on there if anyone's interested. Thank you awesome, And if anyone wants to connect with me, my podcast is called sober Powered. That's my instagram, my website, and you can learn more about that at sober powered dot com. So thank you guys again so much for joining me today.

Thank you, thank you. This was really fun and I think we accomplish what we hope to its show there's lots of different paths here, there's lots of different ways of feeling about this, and there is lots of solutions. Yeah, and whatever you try, you can always try a different thing and sobriety evolves as you keep going in it. Thanks guys, if what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One

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