Ryan Oelke on Awakening in Life

hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Ryan Olki, co founder of Buddhist Geeks and founder of

Awakening in Life. Ryan is a meditation teacher with an ms e d and counseling psychology and has eighteen years experience in meditation. He is also a certified teacher in Judith Blackstone's Realization process. Here's the interview. Hi, Ryan, Welcome to the show. Thank you great to be Eric. Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. You and I met.

I don't know, it's been a while ago, as I was looking in at different spiritual directors out there, and um, you know, we talked for a little bit and I just really liked the work you did and I thought you'd be a great fit for the show. So let's start like we always do, with the parable, where there's a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that

are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which you're presents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second, and she looks up at her grandfather says, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you kind of what that parable means to you in your life and in the

work that you do. Well. I think initially what I like about it is that it invites in a lot of wondering and invites it a lot of inquirying and curiosity. And really that's kind of the first place I go with this parable is it makes me curious because my life and a lot what I observed with people I work with is that we have a lot of wolves. I have a lot of wolves anyways, and the question is is, uh, which wolf is? Which you know? And

how do I know that? And sometimes life is really complicated and the struggles and the joys aren't always super clear to me, and sometimes it takes me time to really discern that and from that discernment to you know, craft a response. So for me what I practice a lot in my life and help others with this practicing radical curiosity. So can I sit with both of these wolves for just a little bit so I can get to know them, so I can hear what they have

to say. Because if I can do that, then I can really with confidence have a response to make changes in my life. But a lot of times it's so easy to just react really quickly. Sometimes I've been wrong in my life, you know that. Sometimes I think, oh, this is the this is the good wolf right here, because it's helping me in the situation, And turns out, damn it, that was the wrong wolf, and uh, I

should have responded in this way. So I also think, because we're so conditioned to want answers, and we really need a lot of answers in our life, that slowing down and practicing curiosity is a lot harder. So whether it's in if we seek out say therapy or a psychologist or a spiritual teacher, we're going to be practicing a lot of slowing down and wondering about our experience,

um starting to come home to ourselves. It's the other thing I think that happens is we come home to ourselves, to come home to these wolves, even if we're gonna just say we're not going to feed certain wolves here, there's something really nice about coming home to myself how I am in this moment, regardless of what's arising, then to be engaged with my experience so that way I can do something with it. So I think there's a lot from this parable that can be opened up in

terms of exploration. Uh, you know, inwardly and outwardly. But that's where I go with it. Wonderful. Well, radical curiosity was one of the places I wanted to start. I don't know if you'd call it your method or your approach. But you call it awakening in life, and I'd like to talk through kind of what that means. But one

of the parts of it is is radical curiosity. And you describe a couple of different things, but you say that one of the things about radical curiosity is doesn't mean having a pleasurable or positive or approval towards what we're curious about. And that's part that's what makes it radical, is that it's not dependent on approval or disapproval. And I'm obviously a big believer in which is can we remain curious, because when we remain curious, we can learn

and we can change. So tell me a little bit more about radical curiosity from your perspective. Yeah, well, you said it great there, Um, as far as what I intend is so difficult. So I want to acknowledge that practicing radical curiosity isn't necessarily easy. So I think sometimes in the you know, in the spiritual world, but in the self help world, to um, we can be given a lot of answers that that's just see a matter of fact, like just do this and everything's going to

be great or it will be easy. Um, But no, it doesn't that that's also not the point. The radical curiosity is the practice, but it can be really difficult at times, and maybe other times it's going to be easier. But there's a lot that I preface in that because I feel like, depending on who I'm talking to, this might be readily received and um and then kind of investigated and but other times it can be met with

a lot of resistance. And it depends on the context of For example, we're talking about politics, right, regardless of where people are in politics, people may not be feeling very curious. There's a lot that I understand about that for sure, because a lot of us feel like we need some very pointed responses to what's going on. But here, you know, radical curiosity, right, So radical first part is

is being radically open to what is happening. And being open to what is happening means that I can fully see what's happening, or I can more fully see and experience what's happening. If I can more fully see and experience what's happening, I can respond to it. So I think the two extremes here that we can fall into. One is being too reactive for we don't have enough space to step back and really look at our experience so that way we can formulate um and create and

craft a intelligent, wise and passionate response. The other side is being so radical that you basically disengage from experience. So the answer would be like, oh, I'm just gonna sort of transcend experience or spiritually bypassed everything that's arising. And obviously that can feel better because I'm no longer you know, in touch with the pain of what's arising, for example, but it doesn't really change anything about our experience.

So here radical curiosity integrates these two really great practices, one of being really open and allowing and then the other being responsive and engaged. So we're not choosing between the two, but we're allowing both to be present at the same time. And pretty much like this is a common thread for me and everything I do. UM. It's hard. I don't know if I can think of a situation where I'm not including some radical curiosity as has part of what I'm doing. And again, it doesn't mean it's

being static or passive, you know. So I'm hoping I'm communicating that very clearly because that's usually the objections of being like, oh, so I'm gonna, you know, not be engaged in my experience. No, that's not what we mean. You know, it's just including that as an element of how we experience and respond to life. Right. The spiritual teacher Audio Shanty said to me once that you know,

nothing collapses consciousness faster than judgment. And it also makes me think of, you know, beginner's mind idea like radical curiosity for me is a way of sort of avoiding that collapsing of consciousness and keeping in that sort of beginner's mind. And it's hard to do, like you said, and and so I agree. I don't think it's a passive approach, but it's a place to start from for me. I agree. I think a lot of different people have talked about this. This just happens to be, uh, something

I tend to focus a lot on. But that's why to use that word curiosity in there, because it implies being engaged um and the radical communicates the openness around it, a phrase that I've been using this week. I'm in this integral meta derma training I'm leading. I'm giving people an introduction on integral theory from Kenloeber, and I had to think of a way to say all this stuff in a very little time, you know, like less than

thirty minutes, which is really difficult. And an essential phrase that came up for me was, um, what's happening here matters? So what's happening in our life matters? And this is a phrase that's particularly potent inside of a context awakening, where um, we might be cultivating the experience of transcending or opening up beyond the experience of our everyday life, you know, or tapping into something more timeless. And so radical curiosity includes that too, that what's happening here matters,

and therefore I'm going to be radically curious. I want to talk about your awakening in life approach. You break this down into three basic ideas. You talk about you know that both those words awakening and in life are really important. And you describe life as as the opportunity to awaken. You describe life is what we are awakening through and what we are awakening for. So let's talk briefly about each of those three, because I think it's an interesting model. So let's talk about life as the

opportunity to awaken. What do you mean by that? Yeah, and you know what's funny. So with the kind of breaking this down into three parts here it can be really subtle and really at certain points almost the three can be synonymous with one another. But in how I differentiate and subtly, opportunity to awaken means that we don't have to um go somewhere else. We don't have to

find special conditions to wake up. The reason why I say this is because in that tradition, like Buddhism, for example, going on retreats is very common, and this is very common amongst many contemplative traditions, whether traditional or contemporary. We seek reach so we can kind of have optimal conditions in order to practice things like meditation and cultivating the

insights and capacities that exists in those traditions. But the way that I differentiate as I say that those are optimal, So we can seek out optimal conditions for sure, maybe that will be beneficial, but we don't need to do that in order to wake up. And the funny thing is is like I also say that awakening in life is it's almost silly in a certain way, Like I really love the title, but if you think about it's like where else are we gonna awaken that well where else? Yeah,

what else? You got? Where you gonna go? Where life and everything that is a part of life isn't present? Right, So even if we're meditating on a mountain and with and there's like nobody around, are we ever not relational? Are we ever not in relationship? You know? I mean we were born a relationship where even if there's nobody around, were in the relationship with our surroundings and nature, and still we have the awareness that there are any beings

on this planet. So, um, life is everywhere. So it's to really counter the tendency to to think that we have to find some escape to life in order to wake up. And of course, I guess you know, we're assuming here that maybe you know, there's some shared understanding of what we mean by wake up, but we're just

talking about traditional paths of waking up. Where um, again, we're waking up to something you can use so many different terms, something timeless, nondual awakenings, awakening to selflessness, deep love and deep compassion, etcetera, etcetera. But we don't need to go anywhere to do that. So that's the first bit. I love that idea because I do think that. I'll just read something you said, because I think it really says it well. You say, no matter our circumstances, we

have the opportunity to awaken. It isn't to say that all circumstances will be relatively of the same ease or difficulty to practice you awaken. But indeed, wherever we are, whatever we're experiencing this, this is our opportunity for awakening. And I think certainly that's what a lot of spirit traditions are driving at, which is like this, like now right now, like this is the only place you could wake up is here right now? Yeah, you know, and

and and I like that. I like that that you sort of, you know, reframe us back because I think a lot of us are waiting for a particular moment.

It's the way we live our lives, right It's the the orientation of oh, well when this than that that's definitely yeah, And it's always uh, I mean, it's kind of the cosmic joke to inside of the tradition that you finally realize that there is no well if this, then that that's that that that that's the very thing that prevents us from waking up on that deep level.

Um but it bears you know, repeating and and talking a little bit more at length, you know, like we've done here, because you know, people might think, well, I can't do these practices awakening or meditation or wake up, um if I have a family or you know, on the bus and work. You know, that's not conducive to waking up. That might be much more difficult in certain aspects.

But it depends on what part of the path you're on too so, and I think when people are at the seeking phase of the very beginning of a path of meditation awakening, it's all brand new. Um. The desire to go and retreat might be much stronger and more beneficial um in certain ways. But then at some point there's a waking down process where you have to integrate what you've realized on the cushion, and you can't do that unless you're trying to do in the midst of life.

But for me, I say, just start that way from the beginning, and it's a lot easier, right. You know.

One of the things I am most interested in these days is how do we practice throughout our day as we go through life, Like there's practice time quote unquote, right and sit down and meditate for thirty minutes in the morning, or I do some yoga, or maybe I do some spiritual reading, and then there's all the rest of my life, right, and how do we bring those ideas, those concepts, those insights, those practices, those mindsets, all of it. How do we weave it through all the rest of

the hours of our day. And I'm kind of curious from your perspective, what are some of the best ways to do that. I see that as the fundamental challenge is that we limit our practice time to these formal times and then we forget about it all the rest of the day, which of course we do. I'm not We're busy, We're running around. There's a thousand things coming at us, you know, And so I'm real curious in how you work with people to do that. So a few things come up from me. We'll see if I

can remember them all in intelligent way. But the first is the view. So in uh contempled traditional Buddhism, the view is important. So if we start with the view that are our practice of meditation awakening is to serve our experience of life, of being in life, then that helps from the get go. So This may be the original motivation, but sometimes we can get lost in the meditation practices, for example, where what we experience on the cushion becomes the goal, Like we lose track of why

we're practicing. Why, why are we sitting on the cushion, what's that going to? Why? What what's our motivation to practice? But we can experience something on a cushion, right, we can experience some like sense of radical openness, right, or selflessness or something like that, and then that becomes the focus. And what can happen is like I just keep trying

to come back to that over and over. I keep trying to recreate that experience, and therefore I've gotten lost in the view, like the endgame is what's happening on the cushion, not life. So start from the beginning with how these practices relate and support your life, not the other way around, which is what we've been talking about. I think too, then it's for me, it's how I

practice that that aids that. So, for example, I have a big emphasis on embodiment, and that has become a much bigger focus in paths of awakening and meditation in the contemporary modern postmodern era. Um, you you'll hear about embodihim. It's so much more than you did even twenty or thirty years ago. So, for example, everything I do now includes the body. I just can't even It's just strange and weird for me to meditate and practice in a

way where the practice isn't rooted in the body. It somehow And the reason why it's important is because essentially that's the same thing as rooting the practice in life. If it's in through your whole body and you're not just saying on the cushion to sort of get out of the body, it's gonna be so much easier to to bring what you experience on on a cushion into life because you're including the body, You're including the form

that you inhabit in this life. The other thing, you know, I have a small practice, um that you probably saw there that I call an environment transition sequence, which is a bunch of words to describe something simple, but basically like how do I come to the cushion and then

how do I leave the cushion? If I can create a more seamless experience from life to formal practice to exiting formal practice and going back in life, they will be as strong a sense of integration, a stronger sense of that this is naturally a part of my life.

So I would say that's one response in too, if you're if you've been doing a lot of formal practice, how can you start shifting that to feeling um that you're bringing this into life more At a certain point, It's funny, and I think a lot of people who have done a lot of practice and gone deep, at a certain point formal practice becomes less important, and people might even stop doing formal practice for a while that there's a realization that formal practice isn't gonna awaken me

or or I'm not going to experience anymore anything deeper by doing formal practice. It's not going to change anything. I can experience what I experience on the cushion at any time in life. So why do the practice now?

I'm gonna say, for like somebody who's beginning of meditation, it might be very natural just to to emphasize formal practice because we're cultivating capacity, right, So if if it's we find it very difficult to just sit with our breath for a few minutes, like sitting with our breath might be really profound for us in this moment. You might need some formal practice to strengthen the capacity of guiding attention to an object, or to focus or to

just be present for a few minutes. And you work on that informal practice, and then when that when I get stronger, it's a little easier to do that on a crazy allowed bus for example, right the conditions change. So I would just want to acknowledge that that, like you know, um, it might take some formal practice in order to be able to bring those capacities and insights into life. So this is a big conversation. I mean, really everything I do involves the question that you brought up.

But these are a few thoughts. One last thing, you know, on embodiment, A practice like embodiment, I am go up really with any practice. I encourage people to try to do that multiple times during the day, in different locations, in different parts of life, even if it's for a minute, like for example, dropping into the body. If if you're on a bus, you can try that for just a minute, even if it's sixty seconds, experience being present in your body.

You're not being experiencing trying to escape the bus experience, but you're just trying to come home to yourself while you're present on that bus, or while you're present whatever situation is. And you do it in little micro doses, and it starts making it feel much more natural. Yeah, I think that idea is really important. Locke Kelly another his method is glimpses. He says small glimpses many times. But I love that idea because it's not Okay, I sit down and I have this big experience or I

have these big experiences. Not that that's not valuable. Formal practice is a huge part of of what's important to me. But that idea of small glimpses, many times, I love it. And I study behavior change an awful lot and I work with a lot of people in coaching practice around that. And that's a pretty big concept, which is you do something often over and over and over a little bit at a time, you know. And that's one of the things I found about really busy people, people who are

really busy who get a lot done. What I sound is that those people find a way to use these little moments of time that most people throw away. And so from a spiritual perspective, the same thing applies these little throwaway moments, the three minutes here that I get on Facebook and the two minutes that I get on Twitter. You know, one of the quotes early on that I started using at the beginning of the shows, will you be amazed what a series of small steps taken over

and over leads to. And I think that with these little spiritual practices three minutes here, a minute here, like you said, just come back to my body, two many you know, a minute of feeling my feet, like it all adds up. Yes, definitely. And if we're looking at sort of stage model of of awakening with respect to these many glimpses, are many practices during a day for somebody who's in a really active seeking phase that's wanting and needing a lot of practice. Right there, you're trying

to arrive somewhere. You're trying to cultivate certain experiences, whether throughs on the cushion or insights, and so in that sense, yeah, you you find more and more opportunities during the day to practice, whereas before if you thought, well, my life is really crammed and I don't have a lot of time to practice, then you might feel discouraged. So in

that sense, it's very supportive doing that. On the under it of the path, it can really switch where the goal isn't really necessarily to rack up the time or the opportunities to practice. It's more of habituating ourselves to not differentiating between practice and life. And both of these things I just said are very really valid, and it's really relative to where what person is at on the path. But I really love both. I love both for you know,

if I'm putting people into big boxes. You know, for the beginner, I love so I tried two minutes and ten times a day. Great. And then for somebody who's gotten disillusioned with, you know, formal practice and they can sense that there's something deeper wanting to emerge and integrate, try to do these practices in different contexts, you know, even briefly, can help dissolve that the vision we can

put between formal practice in life. I think one of the biggest challenges is remembering we get busy doing things, and you know, I think about this often because it's not that I want to always be thinking of like, oh, spiritual practice. When I'm doing everything right, Ultimately it transcends into actually just doing things and really doing them right.

So this isn't like I have to transform the way I do everything, but I do think that one of the biggest challenge es is, and I you know, I know this from a lot of people I work with myself, is up read a little bit of spiritual literature, do a little bit of meditation, rush off into the day, and the next time I think about any of these ideas is nine pm. And so, how do you think

people can remember more? Because if we can even just like you said, it's a view to a certain extent, right, it's a perspective, It's a it's remembering to sort of take perspective and move it out of the normal day to day rush get I want, I don't want perspective and just that slight shift into oh there's something deeper here, you know. But remembering to do that is so hard. Well, there's a few response to have. One I've already mentioned about to elaborate on a little bit more is well

it's kind of tune one the view and embodiment. So one thing I love to ask people is why are you practicing? How I want to ask that and how I want to listen. The response is to have you me be in our bodies. When we do that, to drop into our bodies as fully as we can present into our bodies and have the question presented, and notice what arises, because it's different, because it's so easy for us to respond, say from example, from our heads right,

or from simple reactivity like a surface level response. But what is deeply motivating us? What is that our deepest motivation to practice? And it sounds so simple. We may think that the answer is obvious, But um, when we asked the question in this way and respond in that way, something takes deeper root in us to where it will continue more and more throughout our days that we won't forget. But I think it's so easy to skip this step

because it seems so obvious. It seems obvious because we're already practicing why asked the question, but one we may not have thoroughly asked it, or we may not have thoroughly sat with the inquiry, and then not to mention

that the response to that question changes over time. So I have found when people sit with this question an embodied way, they naturally come back to the practice more throughout their day and throughout their daily life, because otherwise I think what people do is you you try to go from external reminders like you externalize the reminding, right, you use timers and things like that, which, again, if that is what is needed in this moment, then you

make use of that. But at certain point we wanted to switch to where this is just naturally part of our life. Right. We're practicing for a reason. We're practicing to shift something in our own experience. That's that we want to become a natural part of who we are. So for me, it's continually coming back um to our lived experience and grounding it in our bodies. And that's

when I say body. I don't mean you know, exclusively like our physical body, but um, I think you did an interview with jud To Blackstone, Yeah, yeah, and she talks about inhabiting the qualities of our experience in our body. For example, knowing, we experience knowing in our heads, we experience love in our chest, we experience power on our stomachs, mid sections. This means grounding our motivation and our lived,

embodied experience. And from there there emerges some trust I think, and naturally and spontaneously we will come back to the practice. The practices that are important to us. I've been quite surprised with that, actually, even with beginners, because you know, establishing a practice can be really hard. But I'm surprised that how many beginners will naturally come back to a practice of embodiment when a meditation is grounded in the

body at least. So what you're saying is that if you are embodied in a moment and then while you're there you reflect on why you're doing this, it strengthens Maybe this isn't the word, but I'll just use it resolve or it deepens the practice so that it more naturally emerges exactly right. You said it much more succinctly than I did, But that's right. Yes, um, yes, it's because it makes our practice more our own, right, because it's so easy upfront, especially the beginner. Is that we

naturally have to look for forms and practices. We look externally for instruction, right, we have to do that. That's why we study with teachers and in in peers. But at a certain point we want it to become naturally part of our own experience. Like I said, so, yes, so if we start from there, especially asking that question why am I practicing? What is giving rise to practice

in this moment, even formal practice. Can I really steep myself in whatever that is, whatever that motivation is, however it takes form, whether it's in in the form of words, or whether it's in the form of feelings or physical sensations or images, whatever it might be, but it arises more deeply from our own experience. Excellent. I think this would be a good time to transition into talking about paths. Right,

and you make a distinction. You refer to awakening life as a responsive integral path um and then you make a distinction between two sort of a coaches. One is a prescriptive path and model and the others a responsive path and model. And what's interesting is I think back to when you and I talked. Where I was at that point. Was I wanted to get more focused on a spiritual path because I felt like for a lot

of years I had what was felt very responsive to me. Right, I was a very responsive path, totally followed my own intuition and what drew me in and and you know, I was a pretty serious practitioner, and yet I felt the need for a deepening in a focus because you know, I interviewed somebody different every week, and so I'm over here, that I'm over here, and then I'm over here, and

we talked and I ultimately landed. Um working in pretty focused way for now in the Zen path, which is fairly prescriptive and also kind of responsive in its own way. UM So talk to me about prescriptive and responsive and and how people can sort of think about maybe what do they need. It's a big question. I know, I'm raised in these two hour long conversations that we need

to do in seven minutes themes. But I've made reference already to relativizing advice and instructions and practices to where a person is at on the path and also just what's going on in your life right So again, you know I've talked about grounding your motivation in your own body, that by paying attention to what you need right now in your life is another way that it will deepen your practice and integration to life. UM So, if right now you need a prescriptive path, then you follow that.

But you know why you're doing that. You know you've you've sat with it and said yes, okay. Out of my experience, the movement and intuition has arisen to say let's do a prescriptive path. So I think actually, you know, even in say Zen and Buddhism um, there will be a natural arc from prescriptive to responsive in the way that I'm describing that where upfront you are going to

you know, study certain teachings and practices. You're gonna familiarize yourself because this is something maybe you've never done in your life, Like you've never sat down, you've never meditate before, so you have to kind of learn what is meditation, what are the different techniques, what are the practices, Why am I doing this? How should I do this? Etcetera, etcetera.

There's just no way around learning some form, and to learn some form, you're gonna have a prescription of like this is how things are, this is how practices are, This is why we practice this first, and then this next,

and then this is where it's going to take you. Right, So things are now and you have practices, techniques, maps and models for the path at a certain point though, even in Buddhism, so if you say I studied in practice and beet and Buddhist tradition, things will be really prescriptive. But when when you get to things like soap Jen

and Mohamudja. Things become formless a lot in practice, things become very spontaneous where and then the same thing you just the instruction is just sit there, like that's the prescriptive as it gets and which if somebody has never meditate before and um it's very new to it, um, that may be really it doesn't even make sense. Maybe they could just sit, but like the instructions just doesn't

make it doesn't land. So I think one there's a natural arc from in the path where we might start with prescriptive and then eventually find our way to more responsive way of practicing. And it also might fluctuate, you know, if we discover something brand new in our practice, Like a lot of us have realized how important embodiment is

in this you know, last in fifteen years. So we might take up some intentional prescriptive embodiment practices for a little bit so we can really familiarize ourselves with that, and then eventually we start intuitively adapting practices to what we need in life. And I think that's where things get really interesting and radical, is how if we shift from having practices prescribed to sort of designing spontaneously our own practices for what we need in life at any

given time. In that sense, like of what I do with people is that I am not putting out necessarily like this is how it is, you know, and this is the best way to practice, and you should practice these practices in this order. In this way, Awakening Life is definitely not that, and it's not exclusive either, So it's not proprietary, like if you practice with me, you

can only practice this path. And I encourage people to study with more than one teacher because every tradition and every practitioner and if a teacher is going to offer something unique and different, that can make one's practice more full. So in that sense, Awakening Life is responsive. Yep, totally, totally. Yeah.

I think it raises so many really important and big questions, particularly as we look at what's happening here in the West, as these ancient traditions sort of get dumped into the market place for lack of a better word, and you hear a lot of people saying, well, you know, is it good or bad that mindfulness is getting you know, sort of pulled out of these traditions and just purely secular form and you know, you hear complaints about well,

you know, it's like a it's like a buffet. People are going and they're picking a little of this and a little of that and a little of that, and and knowing like is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Is that? You know? Do you need a teacher? And I asked Audia Shanty this question one so I sat down with him. I said, well, does everybody need like a teacher that they work with one

on one? Because I was learning a lot from him, but he doesn't work one on one with people, right, He's just he's too big now and it doesn't work that way. So what do you need a teacher that you work with closely individually? And his answer was perfect, which was, well, I don't know. The question is do you you know? He wasn't going to answer it. He wasn't going to answer it as a everybody needs or no one needs, or it was what about you? You know?

And when you and I talked, one of the things you said to me was we'll just go and kind of like you said, go go sit in an embodiment and then kind of ask yourself, what do you need? Where do you want to go? And what came out for me was very clearly, like I, right now, where

I'm at, I want a pretty tight container. I've been out in the wild for so long that what I want right now for a period of time, and I don't know how long that will last, right is this is this tighter container that has a lot of foundation to it. And that just was where where I was. But again, that comes from never you know, for twenty five years of practice, never going deeply into one area, pulling a little this and a little of that, and I'd wait in a little bit and then I'd start

hearing some things. I was like, I don't know if I believe that. I don't know if I like that, And then I just kind of waltz back out, you know, and I and I, you know, it became clear to me that what I needed was and I just made a commitment for a certain amount of time. I'm gonna just walk this path for this amount of time and then I'll reevaluate. And I think, you know, kind of like we're saying, I think it's sort of knowing yourself, uh, to know kind of what you need and to trust

your intuition. Yeah exactly, Yeah, Yeah's response was great. If I'm trying to support people in anything, it's to have them sit radically in their own experience and pay attention to what's arising. And there's two things there. One is that there's a deep trust in in your experience and everybody's experience. Because if we don't start with deep trust, if I don't start with deep trusting your experience, the whole bunch of actual negative seeds get planted there. Um.

It communicates that you shouldn't trust them yourself. It creates some problematic things that can arise in and we've seen in with guru models of spirituality, communities collapsing things like that. So, but it's different because we you know, there's plenty of examples that we've experienced in the traditions that say, you know, that's how you do it. You look to a teacher who has all the answers for being honest bent them.

It's all over the Buddhist tradition as well. For sure, Um, that's not the only thing that's there, but it definitely exists there. And so to radically turn around and say, well, listen, I trust you and your experience, so let's sit together. But the thing is I can be helpful, can be helpful in supporting you in this inquiry, And so to really ask somebody what do you really, what do you want? What do you most need right now? And to facilitate the experience of trying to sit more deeply in that

because it's very vulnerable. So the process there is to facilitate a vulnerable experience as much as we can, to sit in what's radically true for us in this moment and knowing that it may very well change in a week or in a month or in a year, and I would say it will change. I will go ahead and say that I just don't know when it will change.

And out of that, if we're really honest and and and staying in touch with other experience, certain things will naturally arise that well, yeah, I want to study with the teacher because I want to get some input, you know, I want some feedback, I want some support, So of course I'm going to do that. So yeah, and with the unbundling of mindfulness and things like that, you know, that's a whole big conversation. But I think these questions definitely come up, and you know, I hope that I

communicate that I take this seriousness. So in the sense of like that I say that I work responsively people. It's not a it's not I don't communicate it. Hey, it's a buffet do what you on and who cares? Because really that's going to let people down. That's there's suffering inside of that. People are looking for something and that's why they're practicing. But it's on the foundation of trusting in our own experience. I am in a training

program for being a spiritual director. It's a it's an Interface Spiritual Director program, and it's a fascinating thing because in that model, there's the big debate in that community between prescriptive and non prescriptive. Right, how much does your spiritual direc actor tell you what to do or how much do they teach and how much you know? And so on one hand, there's this complete like, well, don't do anything. I'm like, well, and me, of course, I'm

a middleway guy. I'm like, well, you're not doing anything, just sitting in a room with somebody. Well there's some value in that, but you know. But then on the other hand, and I found it really interesting because one of the people that I work with names John Maybury has written a bunch of books on spiritual direction. He

made this analogy. He said, your job is to be like a couple's counselor between the person that you're working within the divine and what's important is their connection to to use a different word than divine if you want, right, But it's all about facilitating their connection. And what you're saying is what you're trying to do is facilitate direct

connection to their own or our own experience. That's the facilitation is how do I get in touch with my own experience in a deep enough way that I can trust it because I do think it's always trustworthy, but a lot of this may not know how to get there,

and so sometimes that's the facilitation that we need. Yes, yeah, exactly again, Yeah, that that deep trust is important because for me, what's interesting is that if I am I in facilitate that I an experience where you know that I deeply trust your experience and I'm looking to you to guide your experience and I'm here to respond to you when you need structure and help. Right. But that also allows me, I think, some room to then be

more pointed in my responses. So like I can say, Okay, I'm gonna speak really directly to you, which could be a prescriptive sort of way. Um, So I feel like I have more room to do that because you know that I'm still going to trust you to to make use of what I'm saying or not. So yeah, so like I actually can for me as a teacher and facilitator, I feel like I can do both. I can be both radically open but also really direct and pointed that

I don't have to sort of pick between those two. Okay, we're nearing the end of our time here, but I can't help wade into these waters and so, um, because I don't fully get it. So I'm going to ask, what is metadharma? Yeah, well, join the club we're all figuring out together. I think in this terms that term metadharma truly, sincerely, this is some level. It's a living inquiry that um. I think a lot of people are

sitting what they may use different terms. It's related to forth turning a Buddhism, for example, which Kim Wilberg talks a lot about. But really, I think the whole conversation we've been having here has really waded into the waters that could be called metadharma. So this term dharma UH is coming from Buddhist tradition in terms of how I'm using it or folks like my good friend Vincent Horne and Michael taft Um and the implication. There's a lot here. So I'm trying to figure out how to say this

really sucinctly. But in traditional dharma and Buddhism, we're focused. I'm mainly waking up. That's it, right, It's to wake up to how things are radically, how they always are, this always alreadiness of reality, and then that's the goal, and then you're done. Truly, that's it, except for maybe to try to help other beings other people to have

that same awakening experience. Meta dharma is more pointedly going into the question and inquiry of saying what's needed beyond that and how does waking up relate to UH, to the rest of life even, which is a question we've been exploring today. So I think I saw that you have a variety of different people in your show, right, so from different fields of study and experience and practice.

So already implicitly we're saying as as a collective that we value all of these different traditions, all these different practices, all these different ways of looking in at our lives, and so to include everything like, for example, psychology and socio cultural studies and practices, to be paying attention to politics in the economy, to including things like neuroscience and the meditation and therapy. We we include all of that

with waking up. This is partly what we mean by metadarma is that we're saying intentionally this all should be included. It should not be kept separate. We shouldn't just be waking up and ignoring the rest, for sure. But beyond that, the question is is like, okay, so this all should be included. That's the first kind of conclusion that we're going on assumption um. Then the question is how how do we include all this? How does it all relate

to each other? So if I do therapy, you know, with a psychologist, and I'm studying deep meditation and an awakening tradition, how those two relate to each other. How do those two integrate and play with each other in in my lived experience? Also from the perspective of dharma and a tradition of Buddhism, how does all that relate

to the crisis of the world. Right, so um, people might have different relationship to that, But like something like climate change and crisis of economy and health and meaning crisis, what is waking up have to do with that? How do we best respond to that? With waking up and all these other traditions of knowledge and response. So meta dharma is a simple word that points to all of

these inquiries. And there are certain philosophers and theorists who are presenting meta maps of all of these traditions and how they relate to each other, for example, like Ken wilburn inegro theory um as a way to get perspective

on the immense complexity of the human experience. So rather, but one of my mentors has a something I don't think he posted as on Twitter or I think it was a tweet where he said, hokey, sobel He said, don't worry, it's just everything and everyone happening all at once, which is such a great phrase. So that the chuckle there is for me, the chuckle comes from the waking up part that comes from that part of me that

feels in touch with the okayness of reality. But then it also points to like holy shit, you know, this is everything happening all at once, and how do we respond to that? So with these meta theories, we start getting a little bit more space and understanding around that immense complexity. But I think we're living through that right now, So this is not something that's totally known. It's something that we're actively exploring together. Well, I think that's a

pretty good description, thank you. It sounds very similar to you know, integral theory work, but it's trying to sort of say where do these spiritual teachings tie back into life and the other developmental paths that are there. Yeah, exactly, And in a real simpler way now I've said that is that you know, on this integral meta derma training that we're doing right now, me and Vincent horne Um, we're haven't four weeks or focused on waking up, cleaning up,

growing up, and showing up. These are four facets that Kim Wilberg has identified as areas of practice. So that's the way to put it, simply in a practical term. Wonderful. Yeah, and I love that model, those those four Yeah, me too. It's really makes so much sense to me, you know, uh, because as I look at my journey it's you know, there's definitely a lot of spiritual practice. There's a ton of twelve step work, there's all this psychological stuff there.

I mean, there's so many different things that have informed me sort of being who I am in the ways that I am. And yeah, it's it's all there. And yet you're right, how do how do they relate? So all right, I'm gonna bring this all back around here and tie it all together before you and I wrap up.

Which is that you said? And I love this. You said that you could describe the entire point of awakening in life is to have an appropriate response, and you you you quote a Zen co On and so I'm gonna read that and then we'll talk about and it's I'm deep in co On work right now. So I love this. So a monk asked you men, what are the teachings of a whole lifetime? And you men said,

an appropriate response? Aunts So talk to me about that concept, because I do think that ties everything we've talked about sort of back together into kind of what the point of all this is. Yeah, well, I'm glad you pull that out. Um. I love that. Uh, it's one of my favorites. Just so succinct, and sometimes I just want to let things just sit, like I would party wants to just stop there and then say let everybody sit

with that. Um. But um, I think what's interesting, especially in the context of Buddhism, is that that response is an unexpected response, right. Um. I remember when I first heard that, and I was like, Wow, how cool, because normally in Putish tradition, it's like, how do you get uh, stop identifying with form? You know, how do you stop? How do you let go of attachment to form to self? And it's not really a sense of like responding to anything except maybe to let go of response and reactivity.

But here, to say, an appropriate response indicates something of intimacy with life, which is another quote from dog in these said enlightenment is intimacy with all things. Zen has a lot of great of these one liners, and so yeah, I think this points to a lot of what we've been talking about, that why are we practicing whatever the reason we might articulate for ourselves personally, but has to do with something with our life, with living our life,

with showing up and being engaged with the life. It's not to check out of life. That's not what we're why we're doing it. Even if that's what we do temporarily, that's not what we're trying to do. So um and when we talk about how do we practice in this moment? Will what's the appropriate response for you right now in this moment for practice? What do you need right now? Prescriptive path, non prescriptive path, formal practice, not formal practice.

And for me, it's continually coming back over and over and over and over again to this question of right now, what's the appropriate response? And to be radically open to that, radically curious that I don't know. That's why I'm gonna ask a question, but I trust in life deeply that a response will arise if I am present and I'm curious, and then I let that, let the response arise and

follow it. Beautiful. Well, let's leave it there. You and I are going to go into the post show conversation, and I can't leave that dog and quote of enlightenment is intimacy with all things just without exploring that a little bit more because that means so much to me. We're gonna talk about that, and then you are going to lead us in an embodiment practice because I love some of your practices and we're going to do one

of those in the post show conversation. So listeners, if you'd like to get access to that, if you'd like to be a member of what we do, support what we do and get access to all the post show conversations. Add free episodes and a weekly mini episode I do call the teaching Song and a poem. Go to one you feed dot net slash support. Ryan, thanks so much. I could have done this for two more hours, but we are why Chris, my editor is gonna be like wrap it up soon, so he's not here, so I

have to have his voice in my head. So thank you, thank you so much much and great and we'll continue this. Thank you bye mmmmmmm. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head over to one you Feed dot net slash support. The One you Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.