Rosalind Wiseman

or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Welcome to the show.

Our guest today is Rosalind Wiseman, an internationally recognized expert on children's teens, parenting, bullying, social justice, and ethical leadership. Rosalind is the author of the New York Times bestseller Queen bees and Wannabes, Helping your daughter survive clicks, gossip, boyfriends, and the new realities of girl World, which, by the way,

was the basis for the hit movie Mean Girls. Her latest work is Masterminds and Wingman, Helping your son Cope with schoolyard power, locker room tests, girlfriends, and the New Rules of Boyhood. Let's hear the interview. Hi, Rosalind, Welcome

to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. As you know, our show is called The One You Feed, and it's based on the old parable where there's an old grandfather who's talking with his grandson and he said, is in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and love and bravery, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred

and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks. He says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you Feed. So I'd like to start the show off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well. I think it's really profound. Um, it's easy to say. You know, you should live according to your values. And in my case, I'm always talking about treating people with dignity when it's hard.

But I think that even you know I talk about I think about those things so often, but it's still so challenging in real life when you truly are faced with something that's really irritating you, or you're really angry at somebody, that in that moment that you that you don't go to that dark place. Um, it is hard.

It's so hard. And you know why. I think it is about that feeding thing you're talking about about having the support of love of people that love you around you and like what you have around you, that in those really challenging moments, that you do the right thing, that you go to a better place and even if you are angry and you have every reason to be angry, that you conduct yourself in a way that is not vengeful or deceitful or cruel and um, but it's so

so hard. Well, one of the things in your in your books that you that you talk about and UM, I think it was in the most recent book for Boys, you talk about the idea that UM conflict is is unavoidable. And there's a lot of scenarios in that book where you're you're walking boys through how to handle some of that conflict in a way that's similar to what you what you just said away that that feeds the good wolf, so to speak, or at least doesn't, you know, drag

the bad wolf into it. Can you share a little bit about what you teach boys to do in those situations? Well? Sure, Um, you know, I believe that boys deserve a language to talk to be able to talk about their emotional experiences. And um, I think that unfortunately, many of us, without even realizing it, deny our boys the language of life. Um that they you know, we say things and really, honestly, sometimes we are so unaware of them. Um. One of the most profound I think is saying, you know, boys

are easy, they just fighting, it's over. And we don't realize what we're saying when we say those things. Um, we're not self reflective. And in doing that, when we say boys are easy, they don't care about things, They just get over their problems, they don't have problems and

their friendships. That it really sends the message that if a boy has very strong feelings about being portrayed by a friend or being relentlessly humiliated by a end that it reinforces the notion that there's nothing that there's there's never any limit basically to what somebody else can do to him. UM. And I think boys have the right to say, I don't like you betraying me, and I don't want to have it as a part of my friendship.

And I don't I don't want to just have to sit there and just say nothing when you take advantage of me. UM. We would never accept that with girls ever, and what we regularly do with boys, and I think it's really to the detriment of boys um feelings that they can talk to us about the most basic common problems that they have, and then we wonder why boys

shut down and won't talk to us. I mean, it's an amazing thing if you think about it, about how our non self reflection about how we interact with boys. And I include men in that too, UM, lots of men that I've you know, it's been very it was always very surprising to me when I was working on Masterminds that there would be men that would that I felt like, would buy into the stereotype of boys. Um,

you know that, and that was that was shocking to me. Um. But since the publication of Masterminds, it's been an incredible experience to watch so many men come forward and say thank you for you know, for doing this with the boys, because I didn't do it by myself. I never would have. I don't have the right to speak for boys, but to collaborate with boys and to be able to you know, create, try and create this language was really important to me.

And in the book you talk about something you call it the act like a man box that that boys are forced into. And I think in your previous work for teenage girls you talked about you had similar ideas of directions that girls are are pushed into. And I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about because if you expand that idea out, it expands to everybody man, woman, teenager older about being authentic and being yourself. And could you talk a little bit about that maybe

in a broader sense. Yeah, sure, sure. So the twenty plus years that I've been teaching have always been about what are the unwritten rules that we um or unspoken rules that we get that says to us, you know, if you are this way. If you have these kinds of characteristics, then you will have social status, not necessarily respect,

but social status. And what are the ways these what are sort of unwritten rules about what you can't be and if you but if you are those ways, then it gets much easier for people to blow you off, dismiss you, or you you want to hide those parts of yourself. Um, and the culture is everything we know. All these are are that we've never been set down and taught. Culture is these is oftentimes these unwritten rules.

And one of the ways that you always get social status, especially in our culture, is how you fit according to your gender, about how you fit as a as a

girl or as you fit as a boy. And so for girls, the work that I've been doing with girls, and the girls don't necessarily have to agree with this, it's that cultural messages are coming at girls constantly, but not just from the media, but from also adults, and there are real lives right in their lives, you know, on a day to day basis, UM saying to them,

you know, this is what you have to be like. Now, for girls, we can take physical attributes for example, because I think it's the best it's the most obvious one is that the culture is still giving messages to girls constantly that they have to be a very hyper sexualized too to count, basically to be recognized. But at the same time, there are people in the girl's lives and there's also media messages coming to the girls that are really counter to that, that say you're way more than

your body. So there's a language about being that the girls can break out of and used to be able to break out of the confines of I don't want to only be seen as this like hyper sexual person um or to have no opinion. I just am the body that I am. Now if you take that for for boys, boys have the same kinds of very very strong messaging coming to them about what they have to

be like as a boy, how to present. Which is the biggest and best visual that I wrote about Masterminds, I think for most parents is is that we give our boys um costumes at very very young ages, and twenty years ago those costumes did not have muscles sewn into them, and now not only do they have sewn in six backs, but they have saved sewn in muscles everywhere. Right,

the boys are like while walking ridiculous muscle pillow. And that's the equivalent of like a girl, you know, at three or four years old, being giving like a barbie costume with fake augmented breasts in the in the costume. And we would never accept that for a three year old girl. Yet we regularly do that for boys and we think nothing of it. And so that is showing boys.

This is an unwritten rule. So it's not like the parent gives the costume to the boy and says, okay, in order to be a boy that's gonna have high social status, you have to have plus sticks back by the time you're eight. No parent, you know it says that, or very very few do. Um. But that's the that's the message that's being imparted to the boy that if you have man boobs, if you have moves you know

when you're a little there's something shame full about that. Well, those are those are cultural messages coming to the boys. And to act like a man box is about the messages and what those rules are. That if you have you know, if you have the right body, if you are strong, if you're if you can put somebody down fast, if you are always detached, like you don't think you you don't come across as you care about anything. You like the right sports, you play the right sports. Um.

That everything is funny to you. Nothing you don't take anything seriously. Um. And then on the flip side for the act like a man box, you know, what are the things that get that you don't want to be You don't want to express yourself as a girl. You don't want to look like you're trying too hard, you don't want to be passionate about things. But like for example, making the world a better place. Um, that people will come down on you because somehow that has become feminized

in our culture. Um. And so that's really what the act like a man box is. But it's also about for example money, right, like whoever as markers of you know, the right shoes and the right the right stuff within their community goes in the box, when when you don't, it goes outside the box. So this is really all about homophobia and racism and classism and how those dynamics work to dehumanize, to teach us how to dehumanize other people.

And that's profound, right, I mean, that's like those are them. It's not just about kids being nice to each other, self esteem. It's not that, it's about the mechanisms for how we teach, how we are taught, and how we teach others. Unfortunately, to dehumanize other people. UM So you know when you say that when a kid says, that's so gay, or when a parent says, don't be you know, you're crying, don't be like a girl, don't be like

a little girl. Or if you hear that, like I've heard that from my son's when you hear that they said that, they say that to each other and you don't stop them from saying that. Those cultural messages are being reinforced all the time. Yeah, and it's I have teenage boys, so it's sort of a constant. I see all that stuff, stuff playing out all the time. Um. So there's these bigger forces that you're talking about their

Um you know, these messages that we're all getting. What are things that people can do individually to get back in touch with their humanity and and live in a way that they don't feel like they have to be in the box. Well, I mean I think that I don't. I think that the box is so powerful that you're

constantly dealing with it. I mean, I myself, you know, I'm I'm always thinking about how it impacts me and the decisions that I'm making from like the car that I buy to you know, my stressing, like I'll give you, I'll give you one for myself, Like I don't because I don't think we have a really good over this. I just think we have to be mindful. So I just did a presentation. Um, I did a speech a couple weeks ago, and the client sent me a recording of me doing the speech. Right, So it's me up

on a on a up on a stage. And you know, as a woman growing up in this culture, I am not. I cannot control the fact. I wish I could, but I cannot control the fact that as I'm looking at this, I'm not listening to what I'm saying. I'm looking at myself and I'm like, wow, have I been drinking a lot of very recently? Because like, what's up with my stomach? I mean, that's really what happened. And I at the same time that this has happening, I'm looking at myself.

I'm like, oh, I don't like the way I look. Oh my god, is I'm thinking to myself, can you believe that this is the way you are responding to this video, you're not actually listening to the content of the words, and you and and the way I'm real splading, It's like the words don't matter as much as I as how I look that, you know, having those feelings and being like, wow, I am feeling this and that's really sad, and I need to be really mindful of

that so I can process it and move on. So it doesn't really control I be mindful of it, but it doesn't control my decision making. Yeah, it's amazing how deep that that conditioning is. And what I really one of the things I really like in the recent book as you talk about that and you referred to it with the superhero costumes for boys, that that boys have body issues too. I mean it's it's it's not talked

about much in the way it is with girls. But I think it's I don't know a man that doesn't think about it, that isn't concerned about it to some degree. It's just it's just never talked about. It's not it's not socially exceptable in the same way to really talk about it very much, right exactly. And then men learn to feel ashamed of who they are or that they can't admit you know, it takes the sting out of it, right, like when I can talk about it, like when I

just talked about it. Right. It takes the sting out of the pain or the power that those kinds of messages have for you. And so for boys to be UM,

there's no place for them. There's almost there's really so few places for them um in comparison to middle school girls, for example, where they can say, yeah, like I'm getting teased for being fat, or I'm being teased for being super skinny, or I'm being teased, and they don't even they don't think they can even talk about that because people won't take it seriously, whereas girls know that they

have the right to feel bad about it. Right. We had we had Andrew Solomon on last week who wrote a book Far from the Tree and another one called The Noonday Demon. And one of the things we were talking about in regards to depression, but it applies exactly to this, is the few of shame that comes over you when you have depression. You're depressed, and now you're ashamed about being depressed, and you want to talk about it, and I think it's the same thing here. It's I

don't like the way I look. Now I feel bad that I don't like the way I look, and so I'm adding pain on top of of pain and latter cases. Whereas what you you know, what you describe, which is being aware of how we're feeling, accepting that it's it's something that everybody goes through, and then potentially sharing it with other people really lessens the the sting of those

things and the stigma of them. Yeah, I mean you get to this place of like, you know, you realize that you feel this way and that you know, if I can say this to a group of teenage girls for example that i'm or women that I'm working with, you know, and say yeah, okay, so I deal with this for a living, right, I'm supposed to be an expert therefore above this, which of course is absolutely not true. And this is what happened to me when I got this this video right, and and it takes it's like, wow,

well you're feeling this way. I'm feeling this way, so ' a'll sort of in this together and it doesn't feel great, but it feels better that we're talking about it, and boys, I think feel so ashamed and so embarrassed of so many things and they don't feel like they can talk about it, and if they do, there's something wrong with them. Um And I feel really, I mean, there's absolutely a direct connection between being able to ask for help and being able to admit when you're bothered by something and

your mental and emotional well being. And that's you know, I think boys. I feel so strongly that boys have the right to be emotionally well um not only and really I could take it from a self interested point

of view, um not. I mean, I mean I don't like primarily I think boys deserve to have emotional well being, but I also think that the world is suffering because of those boys who lash out at other people because of that to other boys or two girls, and so it's not just in the self interest off I want that boy, I mean he does, but I also want it for the sake of the welfare of other people as well. One of the things that you say is

dignity is non negotiable. What do you mean by that? Um? Well, I think that I don't really like using the word respect. I know that adults like it I think it's a lot of adults like to use it with young people. Is another one of these words that we use that

I think is often extremely counterproductive. Respect. Often an adult says it, really what they mean is you have to obey me, no matter how I'm treating you, like so I can, I can treat you horribly, but you have to respect me because im you're elder and I know this is you know, I respect using that word. You know, like I respect that. There are cultures m and people within cultures who feel very strongly about we have to

respect our elders. Um. But I also think that when we do that, we really are bypassing or being blind, like willfully blind and deaf to the abusive power that adults, some adults can you know, inevitably inflict on other people, and then you're supposed to respect them. And so I think you talk no, yeah, I think you talk about that that you can get them to obey, but it's

out of fear. Respect never comes from that type of interaction because boys know what they know what to respect and what not to respect absolutely and they you know, if a boy respects you because you've treated him well and treat other people well, meaning you're fair, then you're going to have his undying loyalty forever. I mean, I

mean forever. It's when you are arbitrary, when you abuse power, that boys will pretend that they'll they'll they'll they might comply, they might be in compliance with what you're doing, but not. I mean, as soon as you're not there, they're gonna either run, they're gonna disengage, or they disengage right there at the moment. They'll disengage, like in the classroom for example. Um, they'll they'll walk out, they'll move, you know, they'll give up.

They'll they'll they'll give up like on a team or some other thing, or they'll become abusers themselves. And so it's UM. So when we use the word respect, I just think that you've got to own If you're gonna use the word with young people, I think you better own it that there are kids who regularly see adults not treating people with respect, and I don't think those

people merit respect when you do that. Um. And So in comparison, I think the word dignity is a lot more power because dignity you just it's inherent, you just get it. Um. It's being treat it's treating somebody with worth, and everybody has the right to be treated with inherent worth. That's not debatable. It's not tied to one's actions. So I think that you treat everyone with dignity, um, and

that respect is earned. That makes that makes sense. Another thing, a line that I've heard you use a couple of times in your talks and in your books, is that listening is willing to be changed by what you hear. Yeah, you want to elaborate on that. Yeah, that's a big one. So I define it. You know, listening is being ready to be changed by what you hear. Is one of the things that again I said in the beginning, that's one of those things that you say. But man, practice

isn't hard. It's so hard, especially as a parent, because that's actually pretty tricky as a parent, because you know, you're there might be a situation where and this doesn't have to be with a child, like with anybody, there might be a situation where somebody is trying to convince you of something and as a result, they're manipulating you or lying to you or whatever, and you've got to

be savvy about that. UM and so so that's a that's like, it's it's a it's a very difficult line to walk of like and I'll just use the thing with one's children. So when I'm with my kids and I need them like right now, like at this moment, they should be I'm not sure, but they should be walking the dog and moving some patio furniture for me

that I need them to do. And if they were really tired or they didn't do it right, if I come, if I walk out of his podcast and I walk out of my office and nothing has been done and I am extremely frustrated, then I just need them to walk the dog and do the work I need them to do right. But all right, But so I don't really want to be changed by what I am hearing

in the omen. I need that to get the job done. Um, but I do need to know, and I'll you know, I do need to know if there's something going on that, you know, makes it impossible for them to do something like move that furniture, like what if like something might have I don't know what it is, but is there something sort of a higher truth or b your truth that I need to be able to listen to that's going on, um that somehow the consequences that they didn't

get their work downe or didn't do what they're supposed to do. That's a hard line to walk as a parent because I believe very strongly in children pulling their weight in the family. Um And at the same time, sometimes they are overwhelmed or they and they don't really want to tell you about things something that's going on because don't even know where to start, or they're worried

about your reaction to things. So it's it's a very it's just it's one of the most I think it's one of the most tricky things about being a parent is that that line of listening and also you're in a relationship with somebody where they really do need to hold they need to hold their responsibilities, they need to

pull their weight in the family. Yeah, I think in our culture in general, that's a very tricky line because we want to be open to new ideas, we want to be open to two new thoughts, different ways of seeing the world. But yet there's so much out there that's intending to try and deceive us or to get us to see the world in a in a way that is that the story that's being spun is certainly from one person's gain. And so it's this really tricky what what do I? I find it all the time.

A diet is one of the great ones, Like what is There's so many different opinions on what's the right way to eat that it's just like, I have no idea what to believe anymore. I'm pretty sure tomorrow I'll hear like oranges cause cancer or something. You just never

every time you turn around, it's something different. So I agree, But I do think that as as a culture, and one of the things they talk about on the internet is that it's instead of broadening people's um worlds, in a lot of cases, you can subscribe to hear only what you ever want to hear, and and so then there's no chance of listening to be changed. You just listen so that you could argue back. And but I really like that phrase about listening is willing to be

changed at least having that as an intention. Absolutely, And I think especially this is especially this comes into play when you're being a philosophical debate with somebody or they are really have a different viewpoint about an experience that occurred between the two of you, and then that is really different, right, And that's really when that comes into play, and you've got to be able to say, all right, I really have to stop waiting to be able to

make my point. I'm not in a debate here to win. I'm trying to figure out what happened. And that's you know, and you have to be honest with yourself about are you having these conversations to win the debate or are you in these conversations as they are actually trying to

figure out of a middle ground for the two of you. Um. That's also you know, when you asked me before about what I'm doing, what I work, what I do with children, and that's really also one of the things I do is be honest, right, I mean, if you're if that's what you want to do was win the debate, at least be honest about it and don't pretend that you're

trying to be something you're not. Right, right, I heard a quote I saw it this morning or yesterday, and it said that the minute you turn angry in a discussion is when you've turned into need to win more than maybe necessarily make a play. I don't know if I agree with that, but it points in the right direction. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, that makes sense directionally correct. Yes, yes, you say we all want to feel a sense of belonging. This isn't

a character flaw. It's fundamental to the human experience. Give me a little context around that. Well, Um, A very big visual is solitary confinement. Um, it's the worst punishment we can give people. And you know, even in a jail where hostility oftentimes is you know what's happening around you quite a bit, to be alone is the worst punishment. And you have to sit with my podcast part. Yeah. Um, so you know, I think that for the vast, vast majority of us that we are human because of our

connection to other people. And there's nothing wrong with being there. So that's like it's essential to literally it's essential to who we are is to be in connection and relationship with other people. And that is not a bad thing. Um, it is. It is, I believe, fundamental to who we are. The problem is that we often and this goes back to the act like a man boxes that and the act like a woman boxes that in order to be to feel a sense of belonging to a group of

people or to another person. Sometimes we get to a place, especially in a group, where we identify being a part of a group because we are not somebody else, and so it's our loyalty and allegiance, our son, some commonality with each other is based on not being something someone else or from somewhere else, or has a different religion or a different skin color or a different coming from a different neighborhood. And so that's really I think is

like the Achilles heel. It's like though, it's it's our vulnerability. It's our really really deep vulnerability, and it's our great it's our greatest strength and greatest weakness is that we can do these amazing things and groups, and by being in a group, we can do these extraordinary achievements of all different kinds of things. At the same time, when we're in a group, we can, by bonding with each other against someone else, can really do the most amount

of evil. Yeah, exactly. That makes a lot of sense. So I think we're nearing the end of our interview time. I'd like to wrap up by asking you a question. If you had to summarize sort of everything you've got in your advice to teenagers and broaden it out and give one sort of piece of advice or a truth to people in general. What would that be, um, not

to ask you a hard question? All right, exactly. I mean, you know, for teenagers, I want them to realize that, you know, life is really messy and what they're going through, whatever that they're going through that's important to them, is important. It's not just you know, first love. It's not just oh, you're a young person and you'll get over it and

you'll forget about it tomorrow. That the experiences that you have as a young person are important, and they are and they should be respected and um, that they they really do add to who you are as a person, and that you have a right to the feelings that

you have about your experiences. Um. For adults, I would say in work, you know, if you have young people in your life, that that's one of the most important things to be able to build a meaningful relationship with them, is to simply acknowledge that the experiences that they have are important. Yeah, that's that's really true, and it is UM.

I know I struggle with that with the kids sometimes around trying to sort of project a wider life experience onto a smaller thing and and that does the intention is good, but you're right, it can be trivializing of what they're going through. So well, thank you for being a guest. Um. Reading your stuff is certainly I hope helped me to be a better parent. Thank you. I

learned a lot of things there. I was like, oh, yeah, I do that, don that, and then there were and then there were some things I thought I'm doing pretty well with those things. So it was it was great as a as a father of teenage boys, thanking you know, thank you for writing a book that supports them. I'm trying to figure out currently how to get them to read it. Well, you know, the most important thing actually that I should have said is that I'm thank you

for this opportunity. Is I have a book for high school boys. No, that's the one I want to get them to read. Oh that's when you went again to read well the guide. You know, we have this now as an actual book, not just as an e book. So as an e book first for the first know,

six months, and now it's actually a book. So you know, the thing I'm telling parents to do is to put it on just buy it and put it on their bed and just leave it, right, just leave it and run away basically, And um, and the boy tell that for your sons. I mean, we had some high school boys that work so hard to create the written book so that it would look the way that they thought boys would want to see a book that they might

that they might read. So that's the I really hope that parents listening to this are people who work with boys by the guide and just give it to them but don't have any comments about it, no conversations just yet, just like just put it on their desk or put it on their bed and and run away. So my my plan for structured study sessions with potential grounding, if they don't answer the questions right is will be counterproductive. Not all right, Well, thank you again for joining. I

really appreciate it. And um we will talk with you soon. Thank you so much. All right, okay, bite. You can learn more about Rosalind Wiseman and this podcast at one you feed dot net slash Rosalind