Reba Riley on Post Traumatic Church Syndrome

have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf Y, thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Reba Riley, a blogger from Pathos dot com, a speaker, artist,

and healer. She's the author of Post Traumatic Church Syndrome, a memoir of humor and healing in thirty religions. Hiriba, Welcome to the show. Hey Eric, I'm so glad to be here. It's a pleasure to have you on. You are the author of a book called post Traumatic Church Syndrome, One Woman's Desperate, Funny and Healing Journey, which is a wonderful book, and we're going to talk about it in a moment. You're also a fellow Ohio and so we have met in person, even though we're not able to

do this particular interview in person. So I'm looking forward to this. So thanks for being here. I'm so glad you go Bucks, Go Bucks, all right, my mom will be very happy to hear that. Let's let's start like we always do with the parable. There is a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter. I'm changing it up on you, and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside

of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. The granddaughter thinks about it. She stops and she looks up at her grandmother and she said, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. The

great question which one is going to win? And we're always answering it, Eric always in the moment, We're always saying, which is going to win? Where am I going to put my energy? How am I going to live this moment? So that when I get to the end of this day, I know, you know, who did I feel today? Where did I put my energy? You know, when I think about this parable, I think about my work as a the chaplain in the office of Spiritual Care at a

local hospital here in Cincinnati. And there's really nowhere more real in life than when you're near death. And I get the privilege of sitting with people who are evaluating their lives and often really working through what did I feed? And they approach it one of the ways a lot of times, and one will be that they're looking at everything that is amazing about their life and all of the good that they did, the people that they have around them, their family, their friends, even if they've lost

their health. They're putting their energy into the recollecting, the recollecting, the recollecting of those memories um and all of the good. And then I have people who for whatever reason are not approaching it that way or are looking back over their lives and they're saying, I didn't live it the way that I wish that I had. I wish I had forgiven, I wish I had been this, I wish I had done that. And I get to see in very stark term terms the end life UM is the

answer to that question. And so I think what we have to ask ourselves in this moment is how do I live now so that I know I've lived my life well when I come to the end of it. That's a beautiful way of saying it, and it is a clarifying perspective. There's nothing quite like imagining you're at the end and thinking about looking back and going, well, what did I do to help really clarify kind of

what's important? Well, I think it's not just what's important, but also that you know what is the rich and full life and and and what what are those components so that we can choose them now? You know, if I want to get to the end of my life and say that I have lived UM, you know, with joy and kindness and UM and supported others and I need to do those things right now today there is only two. That's what it means to me. That is the answer to my essay question. Eric, nice work. You

can turn that in after class. Thank you. So let's talk about your book now now you're you wrote your b a while ago. It is a really great book. I think a lot of listeners would really enjoy it. We've got a lot of people who come out of the Christian tradition somewhat damaged, and that's you refer to it as post traumatic church syndrome. So let's start there.

What did it mean to you? Well, post traumatic church syndrome to me was a way of putting some language to something that I didn't have a way to talk about. When I was dealing with it, I knew that I was having a spiritual crisis or maybe a dark knight of the soul or many other things. But it to me was the bottom fell out of my life. And when I walked away from religion and um and faith and God and all the center of myself everything was gone. And so my experience of it I termed post traumatic

church syndrome. And it's the title of the book. Not because I talked necessarily about trauma. It's much more about healing. But because that title really speaks to people who've been through that experience, if they hear it, they you know, they may laugh, they may cry, but they know it's them.

And so UM post Traumatic Church Syndrome is the story of my journey through my twenty ninth year when I was dealing with a chronic illness, and that illness, as it does for many people, UM, the illness forced me to face my my internal life and what I found that was very disappointing at the time was a whole bunch of anger, a whole bunch of bitterness. And I realized that if I didn't resolve my issues with my faith and my spirituality, that I would never be able

to be at peace. And so I went on this really whacky, crazy journey through thirty religions before I turned thirty. And the book is the result of that journey of both physical and spiritual healing UM through those thirty religions. It is a wonderful book. The title describes it pretty well, being desperate, funny, and healing. It's all those things. Let's talk though, about what caused you after religion Having been this huge part of your life for so long? What

caused you to walk away from it? The truth is Eric that I just realized that the life that I was experiencing was very gray, and all of the answers that I had been given were extremely black and white, and I couldn't reconcile those things. Um and this, you know, the sad part about the tradition that I grew up in was there wasn't any other option for connecting with

God or spirituality period. Either it was this black and white, our truth is the only truth, or you weren't allowed to have a relationship with God or spirituality at all. And so when I talked about post traumatic church syndrome, I don't just talk about walking away from the church. I walked away from a huge part of myself. And that's the part that I was trying to heal through this journey thirty religions And how long were you sort

of away? Would you say, like, how long was that period after you sort of had you know, death by a thousand cuts? But they're being sort of a final break. Yeah, and before you embarked on this project, who was the better part of a decade? It was the better part of a decade, So it was it was a while. In the book you describe you know, you you are dealing with this chronic illness, and you also visit thirty different religions, some of them being various denominations within Christianity

and then others being well outside of that. As a result of that, what what was the I don't know if this is you in a fair question, but the biggest learning for you can you summarize it in a I know you wrote an entire book. It's gonna say, they're gonna have You're gonna have to read the book for that summary. You know. I can't summarize the whole book in one topic. But what I can say is what I believe in now, and I believe that love is bigger than everything. And not in a trite way.

I mean that connecting with that internal love for yourself first and foremost, UM. Connecting with your love of however you would define spirituality some thing that is bigger than yourself, whether that is you would say God, or I say the God diverse, which is a God plus the universe UM, or you know, just the love of other people. UM. When you can really deeply connect with love that's bigger than all of the other things that we put between ourselves.

It's bigger than it's bigger than um, you know, all of our differences. And at the bottom line, at the whole, you know, end of all of it. What do I believe in? I believe in love. I believe that in that force that is so powerful that it is um able to heal us and bring us together, um, both internally and externally. It's true and true. Yeah, why don't you tell us a story from the book that you

know that that brings that concept home. Again. We're not going to get the whole thing, but I'm giving you an opportunity to just, you know, share a story or two. Readers that have come out of especially an evangelical background. UM will probably really resonate with my mother as a character in the book, because my mom was watching me walk through this journey of illness and then also to

all these religions from her seat still in within evangelical Christianity. Okay, and so my poor mother, you know, thinks I am just going to Hell in a handbasket. You know, I'm one week I'm with the atheists, one week I'm with the I didn't even tell her about the witches. I knew that she would have a heart attack, you know, so I didn't. You know, So my poor mother, and she's trying to figure out, you know, how can I

love Rebecca through this? And so I would say one story was when my mother came to a point in this journey in the book where she had an experience praying for me where she realized that her love was bigger than the differences that were between us, you know, whatever church I was visiting or whatever, that she is my mother, and that she trusts God with my heart and soul, and that she was able to love around those difference is and in her acceptance of that, even

though we still don't agree on many things, we were able to love each other despite all of those things that were between us and still are between us. Because the bottom line is, it doesn't matter at the end of the day what I think about you know, X theology or why theology? Um, if I'm not loving my mother, uh, you know, if she's not loving me. And so that scene specifically where my mom was wrestling with my journey um and came to this understanding that, in her words,

love is bigger than everything. Yes, that is a lovely section of the book when she does do that and and realizes that her God is big enough that she can trust you to him exactly. Yeah, and when she realized that, it was a big step in her faith

personally of being able to let go. And then also, you know, for her to see in the past seven years the work that this journey has done in the world, you know, now that it's out in the book, and the healing that the story is bringing to other people has been a huge faith builder for her, which is just so interesting because quote unquote our faiths aren't exactly

the same. But when it comes down to it, all of the religions that I went to, every single one, and even the ones that weren't religious, wherever I found love in my mind, I found God. And that was super surprising to me as a former evangelical. What do you mean God is in all these places? You know? When love was there, that was that was all that really mattered. Yeah. Yeah, it makes me think of Richard Rohor.

His latest book is um The Universal Christ, and he sort of talks about that idea that you know, God is in everything, but he says a couple of different times. He says, basically, anything that's pulling you out of yourself towards others in a loving way is for all intents and purposes, acting as God in that moment. And I

love that definition. And we can feel that, we can feel when we're being pulled up and out of ourselves, yeah, you know, versus when we feel like we're collapsing into ourselves. You and I talked briefly a little bit about depression and how you know you and I are both certainly sufferers of that and and I've had some of it

now um going on with me. And it is such a feeling of an internal collapsing inwards, this small, tight achy thing, whereas you know, love is this outflowing And so I agree with you about that idea that that where we find love, where I see it is where I tend to find the divine for me, such as it exists. You know, you asked me about a story. There's one other one that comes to mind for me. In my journey. I went to this church that I didn't agree and still you know, I didn't like what

they were doing. I didn't I didn't agree with their worship style. I hated their doctrine at that time, and as chance or the God diverse or serendipity would have it, I also joined this exercise program, this boot camp, and

it met at this church. I didn't know this when I signed up, and so I show up the first day and I'm literally doing like laps in this quote unquote sanctuary that was also a gymnasium, and I'm just getting more and more angry about thinking about how they treat people, and you know, what their what their theology

says about this population or that population. And I remember I tripped a little bit over my shoelace and I almost fell into this table, and the table was this little girl who had leukemia and it was her picture, and they had the sign up sheet for her family, everything that they needed and Eric the margins were overflowing. People were just signing up left and right, and I remember having this huge moment where I went, Oh, my gosh,

this is what it's about. It doesn't matter what I what I think of what they're doing, because they're showing up for their community. They're being here with kindness and love for this family, and that set me free from the judgment of them you know, and in studying me free from the judgment, I realized, you know, if if love and forgiveness are going to start anywhere, where do they have to start? You know, they have to start with me. So if I'm judging people because they're judging me,

it's just a vicious circle. And so being able to let go of that judgment and step back and allow people to take care of each other and themmunities that they're in um and and see that love that they have and recognize that and say, okay, there's the divinity there.

It is is a really beautiful thing. Yes, And and I loved that story in the book also, and it is it is one of those things that is challenging to reconcile when we look at certain religions and and like you said, what they believe and and what appears to be in certain cases kind of hateful, you know, But then you look a little closer and you see that that love is there and that there is kindness

and love. Now it tends to be limited to that community, and that's that's challenging, right, I think the broader the love is But but I do think it's helpful for me to see that, because it takes away the idea like, well, these people are uncarrying people, these people are monsters, these people because they're not at all. And and I I tend to believe the best way to get to know and understand somebody is to look for the good in them,

and it's always there. And I love that story because it was so evident in that moment that like the outpouring of the of the people in this church to another person in the church was suffering, was overwhelming, and there it is. There's that that outward movement of love, the outward movement of love. Yeah. And you know, Eric, you know, when we think about the parable, I think that happens within communities too. It's not just internal whether

you're feeding the good or quote unquote bad. You can see in communities how they are taking care of their own to the extent to which they are. And I think if you look again for that good like you can, you can more accurately assess um something than just the prejudicial element, like you were saying, like they're all like this, they're all like that. Well, just like I'm not all good or all bad, and you're not all good or

all bad. That person isn't either, Um. And I think if we can come to see the humanity in each of us, that's where that love has to ben Yep, yep, totally. I'm in a eighteen month in her Faith spiritual Guidance program and it's very interesting because we are looking at all faiths, and you know, when you look underneath them all, it's not very hard to see very quickly what the

core teaching is. Right. It all comes down to love one another yea, you know, love one another and and and love God such as it is or whatever that is, you know, But it's all that. It's all that basic idea again, that sort of outflowing versus interning. You know, Eric, I want to say love. I feel I can kind of get, you know, touchy feeling like it's it's squishy

and whatever. What does that really mean? And for me, what I've found, not just in the journey through thirty religions, but also in my battle with depression which is ongoing, Um, is that kindness, the actual actions of kindness is what is basically, if love was to like roll up its sleeves and put on work boots, kindness is what would happen, kindness is the action. It's like the outflowing of of the um. It's the verb, the outflowing of that love.

And so back to the story of that church that was taking care of that little girl and there and her family, if they just sat around and felt, oh, I feel so loving towards them, what's not helping anyone, you know. But with the kindness and the actual action and taking that and bringing you up and out, that is how you see it. It's love made visible is when you're actually really being kind That's what it is.

And um and I have used us kindness actually to battle depression, which we can get into if we have if we have time. Um, But just the refocusing on it is there's so much power in it. Yes, and we do have time because that's what we're going to talk about now because that that is a very interesting concept. And I, you know, tell me more. How do you use kindness to battle depression? Rad clear, Eric, I used it radically, So just a quick history because I haven't

written about depression yet in any you know book or anything. Um. After my My Beautiful book came out, I was doing all this good work in the world and I got hit with a really life threatening, debilitating depression. And it's the thing that I am probably most proud of in my life is that I, um, with the help of others, save my own life because it was so dark, Eric, and so I have this huge passion for you know,

talking about how I handled it. Um. I don't know if you ever handled depression how I. You know how I managed it, um and and and one of the ways was that I in conjunction with all of the other things. I mean, you know, you've got to see the doctors, you've got to do the therapy, like, you gotta do all that work. But I was still had no will to wake up in the morning because I had absolutely no purpose, Like why, what's the point? You know?

And that's a very dark place that people, even people who aren't depressed understand, but people who are depressed to know exactly what I'm talking about, Like, even if maybe you're not actively suicidal, there's no reason to even do anything. And it's very very black and so um, what I decided was from the literature, it showed that that if you were kind, it was supposed to like lift your

mood or something. And I was like, all right, well, whatever I'll try it, and I ended up it ended up being the difference maker for me between just barely surviving and being able to live again, because what I did was, I said, Okay, it doesn't matter how I feel about how I'm waking up in the morning or whatever. My goal today is that I'm going to make a difference for someone else in some small way at least.

And that began to snowball, and I ended up doing this project, Eric, where I did five thousand random acts of kindness of a period about eighteen months, and that project gave me my life back because when you are able to get in touch with something that's bigger than yourself, because depression, as we talked about, it's like you're imploding. I mean, you're just closing in on yourself. And if you're able to pull up and out of that just enough to reach out to someone else to help them

in some small way. I can't really explain what that alchemy is, but I know that it works because it gives back to you way more than you can possibly give. And so how I've used it now and you know, I did all this five thousand random acts of kindness, which I think you average out to like ten a day or something like that. It became like this lens that I was looking at the world through, so I wasn't waking up anywhere like there's no reason for me to live. It was like, Okay, there's at least a

reason for me to help somebody else today. And um, and that actually turned into, like I said, you know, getting my right will to live back in my life back. And UM, I'm not going to say it's a this is not a simple thing, but it is. Um. It is doable. And I think a lot of times when you're in depression, you feel like there's nothing I can do, there's nothing, nothing, nothing I can do. Well, there is always something you can do, and that's something is to

find somebody else who needs help and help them. Five thousand is a lot, and average of ten a day is a lot, So let's just start with one. Yeah. Well, well no, I'm not even I'm not even overwhelmed by the number of them so much as how you found them and what you chose, because I think that's at

least for me. I kind of get stuck there sometimes I kind of just I'm going through my day and I've got this to do and that to do, and and you know, there are obvious examples for me of where I where I do that, but but finding the random part or the non obvious acts of kindness is

always a little bit of a challenge. And so you know, tell me about some of the ones that that were your favorites to do or some some go twos that you would be able to pull out and go, oh boy, today's I don't I haven't got much today, but I can do this. I'm going to tell you a story Eric that I have not told on any other anything anywhere. So this year, so I went through the depression that I told you got the major depression several years ago,

and recovered from that. Mostly it's still a challenge, but you know, I was really doing pretty well. And then within this last calendar year, I UM, I was pregnant twice and had two miscarriages. I'm sorry, thank you, UM. And I also had to have a surgery because of it.

And it was just a tremendously dark time. And because I was pregnant, I got off the anti depressants and because of that all I ended up in as bad as a state as I had been like four years ago and I was set to talk about overcoming depression with kindness at a church and it was my thirty seventh birthday, and I realized I was this was It was like on a Wednesday, and I was like, I am going to have to either cancel this because I'm so deep in this depression, or I'm going to have

to actually do it again, like really do it right now today. I've got to do it. Was one or the other. I mean, They're going to cancel it because I'm not living it, or I'm going to like literally practice what I'm about to preach. So what I did is I thought, who else in this vicinity in the city is struggling in the same ways that I am? And how am I feeling? I'm feeling so sad. I'm feeling a tremendous amount of grief. I am depressed, I am you know, broken, like my body is not working right,

I'm angry. Who who else is feeling this way? And I thought of the hospital at the top of my hill that has thousands of people in it that are feeling that way, Okay, And so I thought, all right, so why don't I just go to the hospital. And I'm just going to write notes and I'm going to leave them around, just notes of encouragement, you know, quotes, um, whatever. And so I packed up my stationary, I walked up to the hospital and I, um, I just that's what

I started doing. I had some posts. I put stuff in the in the bathrooms. I put like affirmations of um, you know, like prayers, like not not religious prayers, but just in places where people would find them. Because if you're in a hospital, you know, chances are you're either visiting someone and you're having a hard time, or your you, yourself are having a hard time. And so here I am being this like bandit of kindness, and remember I'm

super depressing, very grief stricken, and I felt ridiculous. I was like, this is not working. I'm gonna have to cancel my speech. But then I found the chapel in the hospital and I walked in and I thought, oh my gosh, you know, anybody who's coming into this chapel

to pray, they really need encouragement. So I sat there and I wrote these notes, and as I did it, Eric I felt this It's not that the pain left, the depression didn't walk away, but what did change was the energy because what I was doing, I was like, I refused to feel this fruitlessly. I will not feel fruitless. If I'm going to be in pain, I'm going to help somebody because of it. And so I sat there and I wrote these thirty notes, and with everyone it

was like, I'm transforming this right now. I am taking this pain and I'm going to do something good in the world that wouldn't have existed if I was not in pain. And what I call that is the alchemy of kindness. It's like you take all of that energy and you've got to do something with it, so you can either self destruct or you can let it come out through your hands in your heart and do good in the world. It gets better. So I ended up

as my being a bandit of kindness. That's how I ended up becoming a chaplain at the hospital, because I ended up talking with the chaplain about what this ridiculous thing I was doing writing all these cards, and that's how I ended up. So because of these, um, you know this the situation that I've been through this last year, I'm now sitting with people and and and holding space

with them. And I never ever would have done that, and I am not one of those people who like God gives you stuff too so that you can become better or whatever. All I know is that whatever horrible thing is happening depression included, that there is a method to be able to take that and turn the energy out so that it isn't imploding, that it's going out in a good way instead. I love that. I love

that idea. I don't believe either that we get things given to us as an opportunity to to grow or it's just not my personal belief system that things happen that way. But I am a pretty firm believer that pain is an opportunity. Pain is a d percent an opportunity.

And I came home from the hospital the other day after, um, you know, just getting this privilege just that with some people who were really struggling, and I said to my husband, I I can't believe that this is what happened because of these miscarriages, Like I just am in awe that because I was willing to say, I am it's so hurt. I'm so broken right out. Who can I help that I get to do that work and and be with

those people, Like it's just it's beautiful. And so my encouragement to anyone who is walking through something that's really dark right now is number one. I wasn't just there. I'm still there some days, you know, but what you But my encouragement is to reach out with that pain and make it into something beautiful. I mean, put out into the world something that wouldn't exist if that pain

didn't exist, because that's how you can turn it around. Actually, I'm going to read a paragraph from your book because this is a perfect time to do it, and I thought it was a beautiful paragraph. So I'm gonna read this paragraph for your book and then we'll see where we go from there. This is why being broken is so beautiful. Being broken means you have cracks for love and light to shine through, gaps for the God diverse to burrow and bloom, space to move from the person

you were to the person you will become. Being broken means healing can find you, and hope can gosh forth like a geyser, flooding every part of you until you can see why the breaking was necessary in the first place to give birth to you. So I rested my healed spirit and broken body in this deep pool of hope, choosing to be thankful for both what I had and what I lacked, because real victories, real victories happen in weakness, where strength is closer than your very next breath. M hmm.

Thank you so much for reading that. You know, it's what no one tells you about writing a memoir is sometimes you're like, did I really write that? Because it's so true and that is exactly what I experienced, just you know, this year when I was so broken and so depressed and in this state of complete weakness and brokenness at the hospital. And and it's the same principle that that's where the growth, that's where it is, that's

where it all is is. Um, this potential for beauty, not that the brokenness itself is, but that you know, we forget that a breakthrough requires a break and I have to always remind myself that that, yes, yeah, I may be broken, but that's the beginning. Right When you're in a lot of pain, sometimes there's nothing worse than somebody telling you like this is a growth experience. You're like, uh, screw you. Um, And yet I do find deep in pain that even if I can hold onto that a

little bit, it's helpful. Right if I can give a little bit of even if I don't know quite how, but that like this is gonna transform in some way, that can be enough to hold onto just to know like that's again, it's not a way out. And sometimes it's really annoying to hear, but I almost always find it also hopeful. I think it depends on the level of darkness that you're in, because it can go either

way for me. UM. But one thing I can say that I can always tell myself, and I'd love to share this with our audience, is UM that in that brokenness, whatever you're doing, you're still breathing, you're still walking around, you're still doing your dishes, you're still taking care of whatever it is that you have to take care of. UM, that it's really brave to do those things. A lot of times I can't hold on to like this, I'm

going to grow from this or whatever. All I can think about is like this moment and to and to remind myself that I'm being really brave right now, because this is really hard and throughout especially this last year of going through the miscarriages and the depression. UM, what I said to myself over and over and over and over. Is I am encouraging, I am encouraging. I'm not just surviving. I am being very brave right now and I'm encouraging, um.

And I hope that that helps somebody out there, because sometimes there's really not a lot that you can hang on too. But that is one truth, that is if you are still breathing and you are still doing whatever it is you're doing, that you're being very brave. Let's talk a little bit more about that idea of couraging, which is I'm assuming brave as a verb. Yeah, brave as a verb. Um. And it's kind of like we talked about, you know how kindness is like love is

like the verb of love. UM. To me, encouraging is that it's that active being brave. And you know, we think of courage a lot of times, and with like the big ce courage and somebody that's you know, on a battlefield, or someone that's saving a life or someone that's filling the blank and that is absolutely courageous. And this does not take away from that, but I'm talking about courage with a little cea that everyday actions that it takes to walk through the hardest times in your life.

So you know, when no one tells you about your life falling apart, is that you know you still have to wake up the next morning, and you still have to put your feet on the floor, and you gotta put on your shoes, and you have to take care of your children, or the dog still needs watch. There are a million things that happen in the midst of

that brokenness that requires some action. And when we're in it, we're doing these things and we're just looking in the mirror, just feeling like a failure and feeling just to complete despair. And when we look back from the future at this time, at the broken time, we're able to look back and go, oh, my gosh, I was so brave that I kept going And so my, I guess what. I what I hope

people can hold on too. If you're in that dark place, if you're in grief, if you're depression, it's illness, whatever it is that you're you're walking out your courage in the moment that's when you need it is to be able to look at yourself and be like, I don't feel brave, but I am brave right now. Um. And you know I learned this not just from the depression Eric, but also you know, from walking through chronic illness for a decade, because I look back now and I'm like,

how did I survive that? How did I keep going to the doctors? How how did I do that? And that's actually where this encouraging idea came from, because when the book came out, all these women would come up to me and hug me and say I was so brave, and I would look around and go, what who you know?

And it took the future, It took the you know, the lens of the future to be able to look back and say, oh, my gosh, I was couraging so hard when I was showing up to those churches and and I was trying to work out my spirituality, and I was showing up to those doctors trying to figure out what's wrong with me. It just was so brave. And I don't want to ever just count my own bravery again when I'm broken, and I don't want other people to dis count their bravery either. I think that's beautiful.

And I think we do tend to discount a lot of what we do in life because we compare it against some grand ideal. And I think that in in most lives, there are so many moments of bravery, of kindness, of decency, of love, of sacrifice woven into any life. That and that most of us just don't appreciated about ourselves because we're either focused on the moments were not that way, or we're thinking we have to do something

grand for it to matter. You know, I think life is full of gravel and glitter vote things, and oftentimes it's it's like what are you what are you collecting? You know, what are you holding on too? Because you get both every day and you are both every day and it's like which one. Oh, that's kind of like the parable Eric. That brings this full circle and is a great place for us to wrap up this conversation. You and I are going to continue in a post

show conversation and listeners. If you want to hear that, you can go to one you feed dot net slash joint and you can become a member of our community get the joy of supporting the show here post show conversations and other great things like ad free episodes. Reva, thank you so much for coming on and I really appreciate you sharing everything you did. Oh, thank you and thank you to everyone who's listening. I'm just sending you

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