Rainn Wilson & Reza Aslan on Spiritual Journeys

We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direct, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this

episode is Rain Wilson and Reza Aslan. Rain is a well known actor, comedian, podcaster, producer, and writer. He's also a former guest of The One You Feed and on Coming Back. He is with Reza Asland, who is a professor of creative writing at the University of California, Riverside and the best selling author of Zealot, The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth. Rain and Resi together have their fantastic podcast, Metaphysical Milkshake. Hi Rain, Hi RaSE A.

Welcome to the show. Thanks Eric, Hello, good to be here. Eric. Nice to see you again. It's very nice to see you again, and thank you guys for joining me. You know, you guys have a new podcast, Metaphysical Milkshake out, which is wonderful. We'll talk a little bit more about that and wide ranging conversation about the things that matter. But

let's start like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddatter stops and she thinks about it for a second. She looks up at her grandfather and she said, well, grandfather, which one wins?

And the grandfather says, the one you feed so I'd like to start off by asking you guys, what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I'll jump in on that, Eric, I've been on the show before, although it was a long, long, long, long long time ago. I think you had just started it. And I love the parable. I love the show that

you do. You know, recovery is important to me, my therapeutic process, my self care and kind of what we do in Metaphysical Mochic and we'll get to this later, is you know, looking at life's biggest possible questions and issues and then applying them to our lives. Because you know, we're not trying to do a podcast that just lives in a philosophy classroom. You know, these are big ideas, but then they're really exciting in how they apply to us.

So for this parable, I mean, there's so many different ways to answer it, and I think, like for me, I'll just speak personally to start. Human beings are programmed to be anxious and we're programmed to be fearful. And they've done studies around this in psychology where you know, because our ancestors lived out in the wilds and out in the jungles and roamed around in caves and and valleys and forests, and any movement, any crackle of leaves, any movement in the leaves or or trees, was a

potential danger and a potential threat. So we're wired to see potential threat and it's much harder for us to see I guess, for lack of a better word, attitude.

So I know that for me on a personal level, you know, when I get up in the morning, I have to attune my inner compass towards gratitude, towards what's working, towards what I'm thankful for, towards what is in my control, what is not in my control, because nine times out of ten, anxiety will take me over, and so I have to recognize that for what it is and I have to honor. You know, anxiety and fear, even selfishness, these are qualities that helped take us human beings to

where we are today. You know, there were survival mechanisms. We needed to be selfish to gain food. We needed to be aggressive to protect our loved ones. We needed to be anxious to not get eaten by a bear or a wolf or or a lion or what have you, but we're not in that state anymore. So it's kind

of like rewiring ourselves toward gratitude and toward serenity. So, you know, this goes hand in hand with our spiritual journey, which I'm a member of the High Faith, and a big part of being a member of the High Faith is this idea that we are in this world, while we're on this planet for a short amount of time, whether it's sixty eight hundred years, whatever it is, running around in our meat suits, that we are developing our spiritual virtues that we will take with us when this

world is done. So my life is a focus on mostly unsuccessful but occasionally successful, focus on kindness, humility, compassion, love, honesty, these kind of qualities of the good wolf. So for me, that parable is so applicable on a daily basis, and it has you know, personal ramifications, and it has kind of religious, spiritual and philosophical reverberations as well. But I'm gonna toss to my partner in philosophical crime, Reza Aslin here. He's a much smarter cat than I am and might

have some other perspective to offer. I don't know, man, I'm I'm absolutely mesmerized by your answer. This will give you a sense of what our conversations are like a lot on metaphysical milkshake. You know, oftentimes Rain will just wax poetic. You know, it's just like a deeply philosophical and existential ideas coming from a personal and emotional place. And then you know, I make part noises and that I would have expected this to be exactly the opposite.

I think. I think people do expect it to be, obviously, and people are I think, really shocked when they listen to the podcast at how heavy and philosophical and spiritually minded TV's Rain Wilson actually is. But you know, it's a joy for me to listen to all the time. I was just thinking while Rain was talking that the personal experience that he was describing about these sort of dual natures that exist within us, that is very much a part of the parable that you it read, has

its kind of source in so many religious traditions. You know, this idea that within humanity there is both darkness and light, both right and wrong, truth and falsehood, and so many religions, I think, have this kind of process whereby through discipline, through doctrine, and ritual, you can suppress one of those natures and allow the other one to really express itself. So much of our conceptions of the afterlife are predicated on this idea that it's a matter of measuring those

two natures. Right, how much of your life was spent pursuing good thoughts, good words, good deeds, Like Zoroastrian say, how much of it was in pursuit of bad thoughts, bad words, bad deeds, And that sort of defines your eternal destiny. But I do think that whether we're talking about it in personal term or philosophical terms, the thing that I come back to is that it's all about personal choice. It's all about personal actions. Right. The feeling of the wolf has to be expressed in real terms

in the world. Right, How do we know which of your nature's is dominant? Well, we know by your actions, right, we know by what you put into the world. And when it comes to religion, when it comes to these questions about you know who is good and who's not good, and what is right and what is not right, what is moral, what is not moral? Always for me at least comes back to this very simple statement, which is you are what you do. You are what you do

as simple as that. Yeah, I've heard you say before that your favorite line from the Bible is faith without works is dead, you know, which I think symbolizes this idea and is a line that I've always loved. We yous did a lot in twelve Step Recovery, which is sort of my ancient tradition. I suppose, I would say, we use that phrase a lot, and it's it's been a big theme of this show, which is, you know,

what we do actually matters. What we think is important, but what we do matters both in the consequences that we put into the world. But the other thing that I think is interesting is that if we think about changing how we feel and wanting to be happier, more content, all those things as a goal that a lot of people have, you know, what we do is a lever that we can pull. You know, behavior is a lever that we can pull that reliably tends to change our

overall well being. I can't remember where I heard you guys talking about this, but I think rain you were describing Martin Seligman's studies about happiness. You know, if you want to be happy, go out and help other people. Yeah, Wow, Okay, we're going right into happiness. Then well, I don't know where we're going, but that's at least where we're landing for a second. Okay, good, No, I love it because

it's one of my favorite topics. And at Soul Pancake, which is this digital media company that I started with some friends, we did a lot of work on happiness and on positive psychology. And you know, this field of positive psychology, I think Resid and I are too old

to have it even have registered. I mean, it really started in the late nineties, early two thousand's, but a Dr. Martin Selegment and a few others at around that time were like, hey, psychology is always about what's screwed up about people and where they're neurotic and where their trauma is and how their dysfunction works. What about things that do work? What about people that are happy? What about

families that are united? What about people that are successful and well balanced and have a tremendous amount of well being inside of them. So this field of study of positive psychology has just taught us so much. It's interesting how the universe works, because here's this door that's opened into this world of positive psychology and at the same time, at the same time, exact same time, people are more unhappy than ever and we're in the middle of a

loneliness epidemic that's off the charts. We did an episode about that about loneliness. You know, suicide is up, suicidal ideation, anxiety, depression. We're in a heartbreaking, heart wrenching epidemic of you know, especially on teenagers and young adults around these mental health issues. For the first time in human history, in recorded human history, young people under twenty five are the loneliest generation. That's astounding.

It was always senior citizens. It was always the seventy five and up people that were the most lonely, and now it's it's high school kids and college kids the most lonely people on the planet. And all they're doing, theoretically is being in classes with people and you know, interacting with one another and going out and being social and being in dormitories and you know, classrooms and gymnasiums

and whatnot, and yet they're the most lonely. So going back to this idea of happiness and the study you brought up, so Dr Martin Sulligman did a class on happiness. It may have been the first class on happiness. Now there's a lot there's wonderful Dr Laurie Santos, she's been doing this exceptional class on happiness for Yale University. That's opened everyone, by the way, and there's tons of her

videos online and so many great resources around that. But he had everyone take a baseline study of happiness in his class, and then on one weekend he said, Okay, this weekend, I want you to go out. I want you to do whatever it is that you think is going to make you the most happy, and then report back to me. So they went out, and what do you think they did? These college kids you know in

the late nineties. They they partied, they went shopping, they hooked up, they did drugs, they got drunk, they went gamble ling, they you know, did all of that kind of stuff. And then they came back the next week and they retook the happiness survey and guess what, they were less happy than the week before. And then he did the exact same thing. And you know where this is going. Where he said, this weekend, I want you to go out and I want you to do things

for other people. I want you to you know, whatever it is, you know, hold a door open for an old lady, by someone a Starbucks, call your aunt who's lonely, or whatever it is. And so the kids reported back in after that weekend they said, I, you know, I held the door open for people. I visited my sick grandmother. I hung out with a friend who was depressed. I bought something for someone. I went and got flowers for

my mom or whatever it was. And then they retook the happiness test and guess what they were happy off the scales. Well, I wasn't off the scales, but there was an increase in their well being quotient that that that the test measured. So what this shows me quite clearly is that the entire focus of contemporary society is

on option A. You know, it's on happiness. It's the instagrammification of happiness or the kardashianification of happiness of like, you know, the hotter you look, the cooler stuff you have, the more you shop, the more you hook up, the more you party. That this is going to lead us to happiness. This is not just on social media. This is also just in the media itself in terms of

advertising and whatnot. In fact, every commercial it was a delight with my son whenever a sports game was on, Like, hey, let's examine these commercials. Hey, who do you think the audience is for that truck or for that salad dressing or whatever it is. And how are they trying to convince you to buy it? Oh, they'll say it'll make you more happy. Oh, it'll make you more popular. Oh, it'll give you a sense of well being in contentment, It'll make your family love you more, whatever it is.

It's really fun to kind of like dig into the commercials, but our entire society is a con. It's a con. Hey, you're gonna get more happy by pursuing this certain way of being in the world, and when actual increased joy and well being comes from being of service to other people. So this also connects to the good wolf and the bad wolf inside of us. You know, it's the it's the good wolves and bad wolves of Instagram. I mean it's on social media. We should we should do that,

the good wolves and bad wolves of Instagram. Um, you know the bad wolves, you know, partying with Scott Disick on a yacht and you know, with eighteen year old models and champagne flowing, and and then there's wonderful nonprofits and animal saving charities that are all about you know, connection and service and humility and kindness and um, it's it's there as well. Sorry, that was a long ram. That is absolutely all right, And is there anything you want to add to that before I take us out?

I don't think I can at anything great. Here's where I'll pivot on that, right. I think that most of the people listening to this show, and probably most of the people that are going to listen to your show, although I don't I don't know your audience, are wise enough that they've kind of gotten past the yachts and the eighteen year old models, and we recognize that, Okay, this is a little bit more of an interior job.

This is a little bit more you know, uh, spiritual, perhaps maybe philosophical, if you guys want to reflect on this, because one of the things that I see is that if we're not careful, even that the spiritual, the philosophical, the personal development becomes just another way of seeking happiness. It's a wiser way than partying, but it still ends up being self referential to a huge degree. And is that equally destined to be problematic is the only way

out to be looking outwards more. Yeah, listen, that's why, you know, being a guru is such good business nowadays, you know, or I guess now we call them life coaches. I guess that's the new term. Uh, it's not for me, but we'll booming industry, Eric, booming industry. I think part of it has to do with the fact that we as a species can't help but you know, co modify everything. We have to quantify and commodify everything, even spirituality, even

enlightenment and transcendence. Right, it's a thing that's out there, and if you follow these rules and if you you know, write me a check, I can take you through the stage is necessary in order to achieve that thing that's out there that will finally make you the person that

you want to be. One of the things that Right and I share in common with each other, and it was kind of a thing that immediately struck us, was that we don't subscribe to the whole dichotomy between sort of spiritual and material, between you know, out there and in here, between science and faith, like all those sort of traditional divisions that seem to propelled so much of

our activities. Right, even as you say, even those activities that are you know, in pursuit of good, in pursuit of enlightenment, in pursuit of spiritual edification, they're so often

presented in these stark, dichotomous terms. Right, And if you can get to the place where you can break down that fake, made up wall that separates these things, right, if you can stop thinking of enlightenment or spiritual fulfillment as a thing that's out there that you pursue, that you go out and you get and realize that it's much more a thing that's within you that you can tap into, that it's a part of your material experience

in the world old. Right. But the more you think about it in those terms, not only are you more likely to achieve the kind of peace and spiritual fulfillment that you are yearning for, but it also kind of keeps you precisely as you're as you're warning, it keeps you from commodifying it in that way that we tend to do with so much. You know of things, right, it's not it's not a thing to possess, it's not

a thing to buy. It's a thing that already exists within you, and it's just a matter of tapping into it. At least that's how my spirituality works. I'm a Muslim, and so Islam is how I define my faith and my spirituality. But my spirituality, my faith is way bigger than Islam. It expands beyond any kind of external shell of religion that you can think of. And I think just as importantly, it's not defined sort of by any one particular set of dudes and don'ts or dogmas and

rituals and practices. It's about the search for my true self, for my real self. And so people ask me all the time, you know, are you quote unquote practicing Muslim whatever the hell that means. But I think what they mean is, you know, do you pray five times a day? And do you go to mosque every Friday? And the answer is no, no, I don't because I don't set aside kind of a formal, sacred place that's separate from the profane, right where it's like, well, six days of

the week, I'm just a profane person. But on the seventh day, you know, I go to church or mosque or temple, and that's where it's different. Or throughout the day I'm one person, but then I stop and I pray, and I'm a different person. You know. For me, my experience as a spiritual being infuses every aspect of my life, so that my entire life, my experience walking through the world,

is in and of itself a form of prayer. And I think that allows me to be comfortable with my happiness right not constantly strive for more and more and more. You know, that's so well said, as I got so much out of just listening to that right now, and it reminded me about how to prioritize, you know, the sacred while in the midst of the profane, and realizing that there isn't again that dichotomy between the two. But like here's an example, Eric, Like for me, spirituality has

to be kind of meat and potatoes. It's like where the rubber meets the road. And like I went up the other day. We brought this new house and it's got a little bit of property on it, and this beautiful vines covering our fence between us and our neighbor was dead. And I looked and it had been hacked, I mean, like at the base, like cut all the big thick vines anything on the neighbor's side had just been cut and not just like trimmed, a little bit

like cut like two inch. And I was like, what these are neighbors I hadn't met yet because we've we've only been in for a few months. But we did have a run in with this neighbor once when a workman of ours took some avocados from their tree and they yelled at them and marched down to our house. So I was like, Oh, are these neighbors. They resent us and they don't like these vines or it's encroaching on their property. And I was immediately just like I'm

gonna you know, I'm gonna get into it here. They fucked with my vine, and you know it saysn't they a big book? You know, we paused when agitated or doubtful and asked God for our next right course of action. And so I was like, you know, I don't know this guy. I got his number from another neighbor. I called him. He called me back. I was like, hey, man, just wondering, why are all those fifty yards of beautiful trump but flower vines are dead on our fence? And

He's like, oh, I had no idea. And then he's like, oh, man, I hired this new gardener to trim our trees, and I asked him to to just kind of cut back the hedge, and he must have misunderstood and he killed the hedge and he's like, I'm so sorry. So it was it was a really positive interaction. And again this goes to the wolf thing where I'm wired for anxiety and conflict. So I have to pause, breathe, pray, and that, to me, that's a spiritual act right there. That spirituality

just at work. It's not a temple. It's not any kind of you know, bending over in a funny way or saying a certain phraser words. It's kind of like, hey, I was able to make a connection with someone that I thought there was something uh more nefarious going on. Yes, assuming positive intent can save us a whole lot of trouble.

I want to circle back to Reza's point here. You were basically saying, Hey, I don't know that I need to necessarily go to church or pray five times a day because I'm trying to make this spirituality, these ways of living more an inherent part of my day. And I have two questions for you. In relation to that, I think one is what role in the studying of religion that you've done do you think ritual plays in reminding us of those things? Because I think that's one

of the hardest parts about a spiritual life is remembering. Right. We get up, we get busy, we get caught up, we're just going, going, going, and then it's you know, I maybe meditate first thing in the morning, and the next thing, I know, it's nine at night, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I meant to be more present. So I think remembering is really important. And so I'm curious kind of maybe question to both of you guys, how do you remember? You know, how do you keep these things somewhat front

of mind? And then the second part of that question is I'm going to ask you about a line from one of your books where you said the single most important factor in the performance of any Muslim ritual is the believer's intention, which must be consciously proclaimed before the ritual can begin. So I'm giving you kind of a wide runway there, but you see how you can weave those things together. Well, As a matter of fact, you actually defined ritual precisely. It is a form of remembering

some rituals. I think the primary ritual in and Sufi Islam is called zicker, and zicker literally translates as remembrance. It's important to think of ritual. So there are two fundamental units within any religion. There's myth and ritual. And the way that we often think about ritual is that it's the script for the performance of the myth. Right, the myth in and of itself is not enough. You have to actually participate in it. You have to bring

it to life. And so ritual becomes the script whereby you actually take part, where you take a performance into the mythology, and in doing so you recreate that mythology. In fact, the process of recreation is the earliest expression

of ritual. And you go back to our most ancient ancestors and when you look at the leaders of those communities, people we now refer to as shaman, their principal job was on set days, you know, throughout the year, on important days, to recite the myths of the community and engage the community and a recreation of those myths. And in doing so they were at least they thought what they were doing was literally recreating the world Anew every

time they did these myths. And so you know, in the modern world, for many religious people, they'll go to church, you know, they'll go to Mass, they'll sit through the rituals, they find comfort in them, they might find communal expression in them. I'm doing something that you know, Catholics before me have done for two thousand years, and it connects me to the worldwide body of faith, but also to the Catholics who came before me, and ultimately to Jesus himself.

But in that connection is supposed to be this kind of collective memory that we all have, right that we're passing down generation after generation, not necessarily through words, but through our actions. And so yeah, that's precisely how I think about ritual. And it goes back to kind of what I was saying at the very beginning of this, which is, for me, it's all about the things that

you do and your Your beliefs are irrelevant. They are literally meaningless if they are not actually put into practice, and the ritual is the means whereby we put those things into practice. I love this point that you bring up, Eric, and it got me thinking as well. In the behindh faith, there are very few very very few rituals or practices. There's a period of time of fasting, but from a daily basis, we're asked to read from the High Holy

Writings in the morning and in the evening. We're asked to say a very short prayer it's three sentences long at some point in the middle of the day, which is like the behind light l i t e. Version of the Muslim five Prayers to Mecca. And we're also asked to say the phrase allow Aba times a day, and allow Aba means God is all glorious. It's synonymous with the Islamic you know, allow akbar, God is great.

And all of these are simply designed to do just what you said, to allow us to remember, to just be like, I'm gonna wake up, I'm gonna read something spiritual in the middle of the day, I'm gonna remember God. At some point during the day, I'm going to say allow up with my prayer beads times. God is glorious. I like to sit outside on a little bench in the trees, surrounded by nature where I most greatly feel

the presence of God. And then at night, before I retire to sleep, I remember my spiritual ness, my spiritual being nous. But these are practices to help us, because you're absolutely right. You know, part of besides being wired for anxiety and stress and discomfort and fear, we are also wired to live as just material beings. You know, nothing wrong with that, but the occasional reminder that we're spiritual beings having a human experience is not so bad. Yeah.

I couldn't agree more. And I've become sort of fascinated over the last few years on you know, what are the various ways of remembering? What are the ways that we can start to weave these things more into the moments of our lives. I want to ask another question for Reza here. I've plucked a few lines here and there from some of your work, but one of them is that you say, I understand the only way I can truly know God is by relying on the only thing I can truly know myself. Maybe we could reflect

a minute on how knowing ourselves leads us to knowing God. Yeah, I was kind of stealing a little bit from the great medieval Arab philosopher who said he who knows himself knows his Lord. And there is a spiritual tradition behind this in Sufi Islam, and Altabi was a Sufi. I belong to the Sufi branch of Islam, and Sufi Islam, we are essentially atheists are definition of God. There's very orthodox.

By the way, all Muslims believe that God is in and of himself existence, that God is indivisible, That God, whatever God is, is in form and substance, one nous, God is divine unity, and so therefore cannot be separated, cannot be divided. It's just that Sufi's ticket one step further, like, we accept the consequence of that fundamental Orthodox belief that exists both in Judaism and in Islam, which is that, well, if God is indivisible, then nothing can exist that isn't God.

Then that means everything is God. Otherwise you're dividing God. If you're saying God is pure existence, then if anything else exists, it exists only in so far as it shares in existence of the only thing that exists. And so this goes back to kind of a little bit of what I was preaching earlier, right about stop looking out there and start looking in here. Sufie's believe that God is not a four separate and distinct from creation.

That Creator and creation are one end the same. And so the journey to find God is not an external journey. It's an internal journey because God exists within you. God exists within all people's and so the start of true spiritual edification begins with that fairly profound and experiential knowledge that whatever I am, whatever God is, we are fundamentally the same. And so to truly know God, you should begin by truly knowing yourself. Rain anything you want to add, always, always,

it's always got something, they say, bring it. I have no shortage of things to say on these topics. So, yes, to know God is to know thyself, and that is Islamic teaching, and it's also in my faith tradition, and I think it's somewhat in every faith tradition because also, how do I say this? How do we say this without sounding dumb? I hate the word belief. I believe, like I say, I believe, it's so limited. I will say that we are souls inhabiting bodies, and the nature

of the soul is something that is beyond time and space. Um, it is essentially unknowable. There is a mystery there, at least in this current. You know, physical universe construct So knowing God God is also unknowable and beyond time and space, at least in this physical plane. And knowing ourselves is knowing our souls. Knowing ourselves doesn't mean like knowing how our pancreas works. I mean, that's great that we can

learn that. But knowing ourselves is knowing how our spiritual light is kindled, how we reflect the light of the sun in the mirrors of our spirits again, our compassion, our kindness, our humility, our love that we bring to the world. So what a glorious mystery that is to get to know ourselves? And so how do I get to know myself? You know, I try and be in a constant state of getting to know myself better and hopefully in a way not in an arrogant way. Oh,

knowing myself means that like I am a God. But there is a sliver of the divine in me, you know, if there's a little chard of glass reflecting the divine spirit inside of me, and that is that piece of God, of the divine in me, And I can seek to know that. I can do that through service to others. I can do that through loving I can do that through therapy. I can do out through twelve steps. It's

an ongoing process, but I love it. I think the way that we can also think about this that might bring some of these things together is that on one hand, there's this knowing ourselves and this internal reflection. And I've said this on the podcast a bunch of times. When I started this show, I was pretty certain that the entire thing I was going to learn was about how to go deeper within. It's an inside job. You know. I'm a practicing Zen Buddhist. That's the way I've oriented

for a long time is Buddhism. And I sort of thought, well, I'm just gonna go internal. But more and more I've learned it's also about what's happening outside of us. And so I think that what i'd ask you, guys, if you could just speak a little bit more on is that know thyself while also deep spiritual wisdom, I think is part of what can turn into this spiritual narcissism.

And so it seems to me, and Res as a scholar of a lot of religions, maybe you can speak to this, is that it seems to me that all the great traditions have pointed as simultaneously inwards and outwards that like inwards, we've got to know ourselves, we've got to do this deep reflective journey, and we've got to serve others, and that it's both those that are really critical to a full flourishing of our spiritual capabilities. Yeah, it's the esoteric exoteric divide that happens in a lot

of religions. To be perfectly frank, While those two threads exist in every major religion in the world, in most, if not all of those religions, the esoteric tends to be repressed. And that's a very simple reason for that, because fundamentally religion is about control and power and the exoteric. These are the things you do, This is how you fact, this is what you read, this is how you pray. Those things are privy to outside forces and outside control.

The esoteric isn't right because that's deep and that's personal, and that tends to frighten religious institutions and religious leaders. And oftentimes this is certainly true in Islam. Oftentimes those tendencies are violently repressed by self described leaders of the religion.

But you are right that fundamentally true meaningful, deep seated spirituality is about reconciling those two ideas, right that making sure that your outer self, your outer rituals, the things that you do, the way that you actually express your faith in values in the world is absolutely in tune with who you are on the inside. And yes, you're right that that can very easily become narcissistic. Again, this

is kind of the human condition, right. But to go back to what I was saying before about in particular Sufism and this notion that all things are God, which means that you're a God. There's a difference between I am God and we are all God. Right. Sufism uses this um fairly well trought out metaphor, which is that

you are a drop of water in an ocean of water. That, in a sense, the first step of true spiritual enlightenment is to rid oneself of the ego of the self, as it's referred to in Sufism, the nafs, the breath, right, the eye, the capital I. That has to be ridd before you can truly understand your true nature. And that's

a very difficult thing to do. Right. The ego is king among us, It's how we define who we are, how we say, you know, what is resa actually and the enormous effort that it takes, regardless of what religious tradition you practice, the enormous effort that it takes to break down the eye so that it doesn't exist anymore, and so that all that is left is well, in the case of Buddhism, the void, right, all that is left is nothing. You don't exist, That is just an illusion.

The self is an illusion. Islam agrees the self is an illusion. But underneath that is not the void. Underneath that is the one right, the soul thing that exists, which is God. And I think once you kind of begin that process, it helps you as much as possible to not become you know, self centered, to not become

ego focused in this spirit actual journey. But as I say, if it were easy, we'd all do it, right, Holy mackerel, do I want to take us down the rabbit hole of debating whether that's what Buddhism really says, is that the void or emptiness and how these things are are more alike than we might think. But I'm going to resist that they are actually, So it's it's very important. Yeah, the concept of Sunyata. This idea that all is void,

all is nothingness, is it realistic? I think the problem is that too many people think that, well, then if all is void and all is nothing, then what's the point? That is the point. The point is the recognition that this is illusion, and that true enlightenment comes from the recognition of the illusion. Then your real self, who you truly are, your Buddha nature, can finally express itself. Really, it's exactly the same thing within Islam and within Judaism.

The way that I often sort of describe it is that, in very kind of crude terms, Buddhism says that if you take all of creation and you put it in a calculator and you push equals, you get the number zero. Islam says when you push equal, you get the number one. But the foundation between those two is very similar. One of the things we say at the one you feed

a lot is that there's no shortcut to lasting happiness. Right, We've got to do the work to improve our lives, but this can be really challenging to do without some support. Our lives are busy, there's a lot of things clawing at our attention, and we might have ways of working with our thoughts, emotions, and behaviors that are not very good for our well being. So if you'd like help working on any or all of those things, I've got a couple of spots that have just opened up in

my one on one coaching practice. You can book a free thirty minute call to talk with me, no pressure, and we get to know each other at one you feed dot net slash coach and Zen. We talk about emptiness all the time. You know, emptiness is form. Form is emptiness. And the best definition of emptiness, the one that resonated the most with me, is this idea of emptiness really means everything all at once. And I love that idea. You know, the void is just the place

that everything comes out of. It is pure possibility, you know, to that basic point, I like, I'm going to try a fun little experiment. We've got a sufi here and a be high guy here, and and to really wise people, I'm gonna give you a phrase from the Zen tradition that I really love and I would just be curious to have you guys say what these things might mean in your tradition, And here's the phrase. And then we say that you need great faith, you need great doubt,

and you need great determination. Rain, And I'll start with you in the behind faith. What might those things look like? Great faith, great doubt, great determination? What might that mean to you? Guys? I hadn't heard that phrase before, but it's it's really beautiful. I think that I don't know about the High tradition, but in what I've learned through my life as that faith and doubt go hand in hand. In the Western tradition, there's kind of black and white, right,

there's good and evil. There's this dichotomous kind of state. There's mind and body and spirit and intellect and whatnot. And this idea that there is faith and it's opposite is doubt. But it's more like the yin and yang, you know, And it's more like that symbol. There's this turning. There's this kind of like, oh, I have great faith, Oh, and I have doubt about that faith, and that renews my faith and then the wheel turns and then additional doubt is created. So I think that they work together,

they go hand in hand. And going back to the previous question again, this dichotomous sense of like is spirituality internal or is it external? Am I going to be enlightened inside of myself in my heart like sitting in the corner of a room. Or am I going to get enlightened being like mother Teresa and serving the orphans? Right? Well, it's both, you know, and it's all both because they

work together. You know, you serve others, you're tested in certain ways, you learn things, you grow, you bring that back to your room, you contemplate that, you connect with the divine spirit of the universe, and then you go back and you serve again. These things are on a wheel. But I love the idea of determination too, because this work is hard, you know, and you just keep going. And I know, like personally for me right now in my spiritual practice, I'm just felt. For the last six

months when the pandemic hit, I was doing great. I started doing online shows and I was doing podcasting, I was writing a book. I wrote the first like quarter of a book. I was like, oh, this is awesome, but really about six months ago or so, and now it's somewhat lifting. Um, I've really struggled in a lot of different ways. I have trouble focusing. I'm not really

able to write anymore. I'm kind of all over the place, and my feelings are scattered, and I think that right now I'm feeling a little distant from my creator and from my spiritual practice. But at the same time, I'm okay with that. This is part of the process. No one kind of is just ensconced in great epic overwhelming faith all the time. Doubt is a part of the process,

and struggle as part of the process as well. Can I follow up on that question a little bit, Rain, and then res I want to get to you on great faith, great doubt, great determination. I'm curious, Rain, have you've been through these cycles enough that you can have faith that you will emerge from them? Yeah? I think part of this is that understanding that I'll get through this.

I try and keep my heart open and as I commune with the spirit that underlies this universe and everything in it and everything outside of it and infinity of other universes beyond this one. As I come in with that spirit, I'm kind of like, what the fuck? You know, what's going on? I'm not feeling it. Show me the way, what would you have me do? I don't know. I'm just living in the not knowing right now, and that's

going back to Metaphysical Milkshake, er new podcast. We try and learn from the discussions that we're having, but it's not about answers. It's about living in the questions. It's your namesake, right, that's right. It's that where you partially named after the gentleman who coined that phrase. Yes, maybe you have the quote in front of you. I don't have it right in front of me. At the Rainer Maril Rocca, the famous German poet philosopher, he talked about

living in the questions. You know, questions as are like locked rooms, and you may one day live yourself into the answer, but you start by living in the questions. Yeah, I'll just say it's funny because we do have an upcoming episode on this very topic on Metaphysical Milkshake, where

we have the absolutely hilarious Pete Holmes. He's an actor and a comedian and also a person of profound faith, and we had them on to talk about, you know, the question of doubt, and he brought up something that I thought was so smart and so relevant to this conversation, which is that people think that doubt is the opposite of faith. Doubt isn't the opposite of faith. Certainty is the opposite of faith. That doubt is actually an integral part of what faith actually is and how it's supposed

to function. That if you don't have doubt, then and what you have a certainty, And especially when it comes to the human condition and the existential questions that we all have and the longing for spirituality and transcendence, if you are certain about any one of those things one way or another, then you're not someone that I can trust. You're not someone that I can have any kind of confidence in. These are by definition things that have no

room for certainty whatsoever. And so yeah, I mean you're supposed to doubt. That's it's supposed to be. Like Rain was just describing a cycle of faith and doubt and faith and doubted. There it's ever present within the very emotion of what faith is. I like the way you said that, not thought of it in that way before about anybody who certain I don't trust them, But it's certainly that is absolutely true. Certainty just always rubs me

the wrong. It's just it's one of those things. And uh, you know, and then when we say great faith, great doubt, great determination. What I like about the doubt is there's another line and then that says great doubt, great enlightenment, because what it means is in that sense, what we're talking about with doubt is deep questions, really deeply asking the question what is this in is profound and deep, and you know with all the pores of your body

that you can so Rain. I got to ask you another of life's really deep questions, which is, do you still think that Josh Ritter is one of our greatest living songwriters? And what have you thought of his last couple of records? I get to I get to talk to almost nobody who loves Josh Ritter in the way that I do, but I think you do, and so I have to take this moment. I have a deep and abiding love of Josh Ritter. Yes, that is something that we share. I think he's at the end of

the day. The Josh Ritter songbook is pretty legend I mean, there are just dozens and dozens of like great American songs. Just recently, on guitar, I was drumming Girl in the War and I hadn't really listened to that song in ten years, and it's like, oh my god, this song is perfect it's so simple and perfectly sketched. Yeah. I like his recent stuff. You know, I'm a little more partial to his earlier stuff because I think sometimes when you have artists, you know, like when you discover them,

that's the work that you most respond to. But he continues to try and branch out. And he just has a new novel coming out. Oh another NOVELI the way, Yeah, yeah, he just sent me an advanced copy. So yeah, he's one of the great American songwriters. What do you think, Eric, I love all his stuff, and I think his later stuff is just amazing. I think their song when will I Be Changed Off of not the most recent record, the one before, is like one of those just truly

timeless and just incredible songs. Yeah. I think he's one of the best. I think he's gonna be like a John Prine, like he might get discovered a little it more later in years, and when he's still writing great songs into his seventies, you know, will be like, oh my god, let's look at the catalog of this guy. Yeah. Absolutely. What about you, Resa, what do you think of josh ridder Reza well, or what do you love music wise? Give us something you love. I think music for me

is deeply spiritual. Raza has seventeen kids, so he's probably listening to sound. My six year old has the most amazing musical taste you can ever to a lot of veggie tales these days. No, no, no, no. My six year old listens to techno, a lot of trip hop. Uh. My six year old introduced me to Billie Eilish. Uh. You know I heard the new Drake album for the first time because my six year old gave it to me.

My six year old is quite a musical phenomen Well, okay, if you we're gonna have a music we'll just talk about the fact that Rain and I, for those of you out there who are curious about, you know, metaphysical milkshake trivia, we share a absolute just fever rish devotion to Radiohead, and you know it just it just means that we belong together. I think that's that's what that

that indicates. So you know, I mean, I'm just saying, if Tom York you're happy to be listening right now because I love you, well, guys, thank you so much for taking the time to come on. There will have links in the show notes to metaphysical milkshake wouldn't be hard to find if anybody wanted to find it. It's out there on podcast players everywhere. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks a lot. Really enjoyed it, had a

great conversation. Thanks so much for having us. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community. With this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support now. We are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support,

and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level and become a member of the One you Feed community. Go to when you feed dot net slash Join The One You Feed podcast. Would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.