Rachel Krantz on Non-Monogomy and Spiritual Growth

self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks

for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Rachel Krantz, one of three founding editors of Bustle, and she's the recipient of the Peabody Award, the Robert F. Kennedy Center for Justice and Human Rights International Radio Award, the Investigative Reporters and Editors Radio Award and the Edward R. Murrow Award for her work as an investigative reporter with y

Are Media. Rachel is also the host of Help Existing, a new interview podcast offering help with different aspects of existence, and the author of the book discussed on this episode, Open An Uncensored Memoir of Love, Liberation and non Monogamy. Hi, Rachel, Welcome to the show. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. We're going to be disc us in your book called Open, an Uncensored Memoir of Love, Liberation and Nonmonogamy. But before we do that,

let's start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with a grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for seconds, says, well, which one wins,

and the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, you know, it makes me think, actually, if not the two wolves, but are too closest genetic relatives chimpanzees and bonobos, which are actually very representative of the same parable. So chimpanzees more people know about. They're

the less endangered species. They're actually, despite being adorable, patriarchal, violent, can wage warfare, there's um, sexual assault, all these things. Then there's our other closest genetic relative, even a slight percentage more closely related to us. But nobo's much less studied and well known, partially because they're very endangered, but also because they're a matriarchical species. All the females are bisexual,

they're very nonviolent, they use sex to diffuse conflict. And so you think about that, and those sides are so obviously intention or present in all humans, right, the desire for domination and warfare, maybe the bad wolf the worst of us, and then also the side of us that are lovers and want to be peaceful and perhaps more fluid and emotional in loving ways. And so I guess I think with that parable that both sides are within

us and that it's also very fluid. I don't tend to like dualistic thinking because I've seen, you know, for example, with emotions like jealousy that are represented in the book very much the bad Wolf. That It's true, the more you feed it, the more it grows. I do think what you practice grows stronger, good or bad. At the same time, I saw how disavowing that bad wolf a k jealousy or shame or whatever else also fed it.

So the more I was angry at the bad Wolf of you shouldn't be feeling this or why are you feeling this? That also made it stronger. So I think one lesson to me is that we kind of have to love and accept the bad wolf to rather than disavowing it or trying to reject it completely, feed the good, but recognize that it's all fluid and part of us. Yeah. I think that is such an interesting dynamic to think about, which is how do we deal with quote unquote negative

thoughts and emotions? Right, it's pretty easy to think about feeding the good, So, okay, we want to, you know, we want to. You write a lot about this, nurturing the good, right, noticing the good things in your life, and paying more attention to them, which is definitely, you know, the cultivation side. And then there comes the other side. And I like the parable sort of because it really doesn't mention what we should do with the bad wolf.

Doesn't say you have to starve in it, because I think that's a really nuanced, an important point, and I think it's becoming more and more clear, and I hear more and more people answer the parable that way these days, saying well, hang on, let's not put the bad wolf in a cage, or let's give him some attention. I want to start off with the line that you wrote recently.

Maybe it was on Twitter. I don't know where it originated, but you wrote, when you're a woman writing about sex and early readers start calling you brave, you know you're about to be in for some ship. I assume that you have gotten some. Yeah, I have. I've been very heartened that at the love and kindness has so far outweighed the trolling or negativity. I was not expecting that, to be honest, like I think perhaps was more cynical of I'm going to just get harassed really badly all

the time. And I think the fact that that hasn't been the case that it's been more minimal, or that I've so far been able to control it by having certain limits in place, like no contact form on my

website unfortunately is for that reason. But that said, my d ms on social media are open, and I find by and large it's just people reaching out with kindness and really feeling less alone, either in my talking about themes of emotional abuse and gas lighting or non monogamy and more flawed depictions of what can go wrong in those relationships, rather than only having a perfect representation all

the time, people have just been appreciative. So that's been really heartening to see that there's less less ship than I thought. But that said, I think there's still. Yeah,

there's a lot of trolling and negativity. I think what's been more hurtful to me has to see from certain media establishments comments like, oh, we can't cover it because we just had a polyamory book three months ago, and so there's so obviously like a quota for how much is this representation allowed, Whereas I hope now we're at a point in the culture where they wouldn't say to me as a queer woman or Jewish woman, oh, we just had a Jewish queer woman three months ago. We

can't have another. But it's clear that with any representation of non monogamy, no matter how much the book is really about so many other things that there's sort of still the idea of this is a ghetto wise limited topic that you know, we can only cover once or twice a year. And I think what you're saying rings true in my experience. And I am not a email who writes openly about sexual topics, so I'm going to get very different things. But the vast, vast, vast majority

of feedback that I've ever gotten has been positive. And I think life is like that. A lot in the the good and the bad are there. You're going to have the trolls, and you're gonna have a lot of people responding kindly, and back to sort of what we talked about, you kind of have to think about, Okay, which these things do I want to give more attention to? Which of these things do I want to allow to occupy my head space because they're both true and real

that they're there. But we sort of get to determine to some degree what we do with the limited real estate sort of in our brain definitely. And one thing that's been important to me is to keep the virtuous cycle going. So when someone reaches out to me with kindness, I always message them back. I'll usually like leave them a voice message if it's on Instagram, and and thank them and let them know how much that really keeps

me going. To hear things like that, that makes me feel like it wasn't just sent out into the void and that all that matters are sales or something like that, but to really hear about how it's impacting individuals, It matters so much, and so I try to reflect back to them how much that kindness really matters, and that I think it's a special kind of person who not only reads the book and is impacted by it, but then is brave enough to reach out to an author

they care about, and so to kind of reflect back their goodness. I think it's important to them keeping the cycle going of them perhaps reaching out to an author of the next book they read that touches them, or to just see where they can perform more random acts

of kindness is important. Yeah. I think it's a great tip for people who don't know like authors are very accessible and they often hear from people less than you'd think, and so it's a really kind thing not to only take the second to give a star rating or a one line review, even on good Reads or Amazon can actually a huge difference unfortunately, and how the algorithms work. But also to just send that quick message on social media through their website, it can really mean a lot

to people. Just with all my author friends hearing from them to like, that's what makes you know it's worthwhile. As a podcaster, same thing, So listeners, I expect lots of emails of support and I'm kidding but sort of, but I do love them because you you do you I see the numbers of people who are listening. But the best part for me of this has been hearing from people and getting to know them and the programs we've done in the community that we build. That's been

what's really special. And I think, like you said, a lot of people assume, oh, they wouldn't want to hear that. They probably get a ton of it, and you know, until you get to be huge, it's always lovely to hear. Anyway. Onwards, So let's talk a little bit about non monogamy slash pol amory. Are they the same thing, just one's describing what it is and the others describing what it isn't sort of, but a nonmonogamy is a larger umbrella. So

it's anything that's not monogamy. So people like swingers or a couple that only has a don't ask, don't tell policy, or it can only be anonymous sex that would all

fall under non monogamy, as would polyamory. But polyamorous make the distinction that it's kind of in the word right, more than one love, So that tends to be an emphasis on multiple relationships, multiple emotional attachments potentially, whereas you could have other people practicing something that's non monogamy where they try to compartmentalize, keep emotions out of it, or there's only one relationship to their nonmonogamy. Got it. Okay,

that's a very helpful distinction. So the book really talks about I'm going to summarize it very quickly. I'm going to put your life's work in a sentence. Now, Basically, the book sort of talks a little bit about you, your earlier life, and then you get it into relationship with someone who polyamorous wants you to be polyamorous, and you want to give it a try for a lot of different reasons. You know, one is to please him, but also a lot of it is because you think

that there's a lot in it for you. Also, in the book really depicts that relationship broadly speaking, and that relationship certainly has the polyamory aspects of it, but it also talks about the aspects of that relationship that we might call gas lighting or I don't know if you would use the word abuse, maybe that's harder than you would go with the word. But the dynamics in that relationship, and so it's not just the polyamory part of this

that makes this whole thing challenging for you. It's also the dynamics of the relationship itself. And so I kind of wanted to, as you do in the book, break those apart a little bit, and you know, start off by talking a little bit about the polyamory part and then maybe move into some more of the their pieces. Talk to me a little bit about what it was from your perspective that made you want to try this type of relationship. Yeah, well, I was twenty seven when

I met Adam. He was older and more experienced and I felt the pressure that many people socialized as women feel to find the one before it was too late.

Even at seven, I felt that pressure that, oh, this serial monogamy pattern I have of falling in love, growing gradually bored and restless, not feeling my future narrowing, not wanting to only be kissing or one person, or never have a first date again for the rest of my life, and to sort of know how that part of my story ended was just so claustrophobic and unappealing to me. Because love was my favorite thing to write about, to explore. I loved falling in love, but I also felt like,

oh God, I better grow out of this. I hope I grow out of this once I meet the magic one. Even though a part of me didn't really believe that was a thing, I guess I was hoping it was and that it would kind of put my restlessness to bed.

And so when I met Adam and he was saying that he was also looking in some ways for that one someone to share his life with, the serious life partner, and he was so many of the traits that I found compelling, you know, very very smart, from a great family, was an adult in a way, I hadn't really experienced dating a real grown man quote unquote before I could imagine that future with him. But a future with him, as he pitched, it also meant I wouldn't have to

give up that possibility of future adventure. And so you know, I think, I write in the book he was offering me the chance to eat the cake and have the pie too, right, And and so I was like, all right, I guess I better try this. I was familiar with the concept of nominogamy, and even though it scared me, I was also intrigued and thought, perhaps this will work better for me because what I've been doing before is not working right, right, I can totally relate with that.

As I've grown older, my needs and desires have shifted very much, and that isn't something that particularly interests me now, but I think it at twenty nine, for example, very much. So I I totally understand that feeling of like, well, I really want a partner that I settled down with and holy crap, that's it. That's the end of the game. Right.

That felt really constricting and really hard to imagine, And the idea of having both sounds really wonderful and Adam pitched it to you in a way that said like, hey, we can start this with only you having multiple loves to use the polyamory term, and I won't for now.

So he gave you sort of an easy way in yes, And that was one of his ways of demonstrating he was serious about me that this was a long term commitment or investment, but it was very much understood that that offer would expire and that it was up to me went to lift it, but it was implicit. But yeah. He also revealed that his kink was seeing me with other men, which had never even occurred to me as a thing that people were into, Like I had you heard of the other way around, but not that, and

so I was like, well great, so yeah. For the first year we pretty much just explored things together, which is actually how a lot of people who practice now monogamy do it is as a couple. And then when I met someone and started dating them individually, that's when I felt like, I think we need to open this up on your end to this feels unfair because it's now something that I'm not sharing with you all the time.

And and that's when my battles with jealousy began, which is is an emotion that's very deeply explored and researched in the book, and we'll get to that here very shortly. So there's the appeal of Okay, I don't want to only, you know, have one love in life. I want the ability to have, as you said, more adventures, more different things. But there's also an element that this is a preferable way to be because it is more generous. You said, being open also seemed like the more generous way to be.

It felt like an ultimate active love to sacrifice your ego and the interest of a partner's bodily autonomy, and I wanted to give that loving generosity back. So there's also something embedded in it that says, hey, this is a better model. It's one based on deep love and commitment for each other and trust, but also generosity and non possessiveness and non attachment. So there's, in addition to the cake part and the icing part of it, right, there's also the sense that this may be a more

evolved way. Maybe that's not the term you would use, but yeah, yeah, I think that it's something that Adams certainly felt and that many polyamorous people have kind of made an argument for this idea that it it is more evolved or or loving in certain ways, that it just seemed more generous and less controlling. I think that part of what you see throughout the book is how now what matters more is the dynamic and really, if someone's controlling, they can use non monogamy to control you,

or they can use monogamy to control you. It's really the less that any relationship model is inherently more enlightened and more about the power dynamics that exist between individuals and how do they relate. Do they exploit those structures or do they use them as ways to foster security and freedom. So I think that's totally possible for non monogamy,

that's totally possible for monogamy too. But yeah, I think like a lot of people, I had an interest in Buddhism since my early twenties and some knowledge, had gone on some retreats and done some reading, but nowhere near what I have now in terms of really going much deeper and actually studying these concepts and having a monk who's a teacher to me and who I can really untangle these themes with and so I think that I didn't have a full understanding of what non attachment actually means,

and so I kind of took Adam's word for it as someone who had read more Teet not Han and and other thinkers of like, Okay, this is the more loving, evolved, perhaps enlightened way to be. But actually that ended up being in some ways a tool for their manipulation, which is not totally unusual. We see in any spiritual community.

There can be instances of people using it as a means of control, or to get sex, or to tell people that their reality is unevolved or their emotional reactions are incorrect, and that if they can just rise above they would see it their way, right. So I wanted to show how that kind of spirituality can sometimes be construted, because I think it's actually a very common thing, not

just with non monogamy but in general. That's right, and not only is it something that other people use for power and control, it's something we tend to impose on ourselves very much. And you certainly talk about this how over time what Adam's views were on things became the views that you thought you should have, not just to make him happy, but that we're actually the correct views.

And I think that's sort of what I'm describing with the spiritual stuff that you're talking about, is these ideas of non attachment, we can give them back on ourselves. You know, shouldn't I be better than this? Shouldn't I know better than this? Shouldn't I be more evolved? Shouldn't I be non attached? All this stuff which causes us

to really suffer? Yes, absolutely, And I think you know that's the thing with gas lighting, which I know we can get into more later, but that what's so insidious about is that, like the person takes over your thoughts. So it's incremental, right, It's not something that happens overnight or just with one instance of an argument where there's

gas lighting. This is over a period of years where eventually it got to the point that what his opinions and desires were were stronger than my own intuition or even the voice inside my head. So if I felt uncomfortable with something, I would immediately hear him in my head arguing why that was incorrect, why that was unloving

or unevolved. And so yeah, you take on their worldview and arguments, and it's a sort of mind control that's made all the more confusing by the fact that the person doing it doesn't always mean to consciously be doing that to you, but it's part of the dynamic that you have gets to a very unhealthy place. But I think also one I got on the other side of that and talked with Monktashimima, who features in the book and who is my teacher. I mentioned that He said,

you know, non attachment is not indifference. It doesn't mean it doesn't matter to you whether you eat poison or healthy food, and it has a lot of near enemies like dissociation. And you know, he helped me make the distinction of yes, when an emotion is yours, it is your responsibility, you know. But the distinction is someone else should never be telling you what should and shouldn't be

in your feelings. So it could be true that your jealousy is based in something that you need to examine and is not rational or true, or is an emotion you need to take responsibility for. But if someone else is telling you you shouldn't be jealous, that's irrational and can't hold that reaction with compassion and say why is this happening? Do you think, is there anything I can do to help you feel safer than we can examine the root of this to other and maybe heal it.

If they can't do that, and there instead just saying your thoughts or your feelings are are wrong and incorrect or untrue. That's a major red flag and something that Tash she said people should never be doing, whether it's a partner or spiritual teacher or parent, whoever else might be telling you that, yes, emotions are your responsibility, but it's never up to someone else to dictate what should and shouldn't be in your emotions, which I thought is

a very good, important distinction. It is a really important distinction, and it is one of those things that I think is really hard to let me say this, it's hard for me to do right, Like I can see someone else having a reaction to something, and I can be thinking in my mind, it's not cold, like get over it, but it is like, you know, there's a different way you could look at this, and this is an overreaction, and I recognize that in myself. It's just sort of

a generalized fear of emotion. It's a generalized like, oh, someone else is having a strong emotion near me. That's not safe, and I know the reasons why I respond that way, and I work very hard not to do that, and yet I feel it arise in me. I feel it arise in me, and I have to work with it. I think again, it's like everyone is responsible for their own emotions. That doesn't mean you can't help hold other people's in compassion. That's what it is to be in

in relationship often. But that also doesn't mean you should just tolerate any situation or anyone throwing any emotions on them. You know, you can have compassion with boundaries. You can say I have compassion for you know the fact that you are having a lot of trouble with jealousy. But after years of trying to work with you on this, it's a boundary for me that I can't work with this anymore. And that's okay. That can be a loving

thing to step away. Where it becomes unloving is when you stay in a dynamic where you're kind of feeding your suffering and the other persons suffering by saying, know, you should be different, this is wrong, or whatever else,

that you can't hold what they're feeling with compassion. But yeah, it's always going to be that we're going to have responses to what other people are feeling, and sometimes we do need to have those boundaries and say, look, I can't talk to you when you're being this reactive that can totally come from a loving place. Hello, listening friends, This is Jenny and I just wanted to pause for

a moment to tell you about something. When I became a certified mindfulness teacher, I did so through the year long training program offered through the My Fullness Training Institute and it was a truly transformative year of my life. And they are currently enrolling for their next training class.

It's going to be in Berkeley, California, in September of this year, and they're currently accepting applications, So I thought I might share just a little bit about it with you, and if you're interested, you can go to Mindfulness Training

Institute dot com and apply for this next cohort. The Mindfulness Training Institute has been training people for ten years, with over three hundred graduated teachers working in thirty countries around the world, and the year long training program is led by my two teachers, the two renowned teachers Mark Coleman and Martin ill Ward, who between the two of them have five decades of teaching experience. The training is

really deeply experiential, really intimate. So there are four in person training modules that take place in this case in California, and they really allow for a deep in person connection with the teachers and with your trainee peers. I will say that I have made lifelong friends through this program. But as a result, you really learn to teach with confidence, with clarity, and it really grows your own practice in

incredible ways. So if you have been thinking that mindfulness, which has touched your life might be something you want to bring to others again, whether it's in your local community or perhaps even in your workplace, I really encourage you to check it out again. I can't say enough good things about the program and about my two teachers.

So again, if you're interested, you can go to Mindfulness Training Institute dot com, and I would encourage you to go and apply now if you're interested, because they are currently enrolling for the upcoming cohort that begins in September of this year. It'll take place in Berkeley, California. Okay, friends,

take care. I want to move on from nonmonogamy in a minute, with just a couple of statements that you wrote that I think are useful, and you said one of them was perhaps romantic happiness had less to do with the relationship model itself than having a foundation of secure attachment and compatible desires. I think that's a great way of some in and up. And you also say there's nothing inherently abusive or enlightened about nonmonogamy. The individual's

behavior determines that absolutely, and the same thing about monogamy. Right, We see that everywhere that monogamy can be a ripe breeding ground for abuse. In terms of that's kind of one oh one of why were you wearing that? Why were you talking to him? Right? Over half of women who are murdered in the United States are killed by romantic partners, and twelve percent of those cases are associated

with jealousy. So obviously you can have monogamy be a breeding ground for abuse, but also you can have great love stories, and we see the whole gamut of that depicted in media, from the terrible outcomes to the most beautiful love stories. It's just the non monogamy so marginalized and taboo that that really has to be reminded and said explicitly of like, Look, it's not the relationship model itself, it's the people. Just in the same way as monogamy,

you're gonna have any range of outcomes. Yes, I think it's a great way of saying it. So let's move on to jealousy, because when you open up the relationship on Adam's side, you are suddenly attacked by I don't know why he's called the green Why is jealousy considered the green monster? Do you know in your research on jealousy? You know I should know that, and I actually don't. I don't remember jealousy is the green monster. I don't

know why. But you are attacked by it. And you describe a scene in the book where a woman walks into it. Maybe you guys are at a bar. I don't remember a restaurant. A woman walks and sits down and starts flirting with him, and the phrases that come to your mind are so vicious and so angry, like instantly, and you describe their not even thoughts you normally would have.

It's not the way you think. Tell me about that moment. Yeah, it was incredibly humbling and informative and kind of illustrative of social conditioning really, because before that I had never thought of myself as a jealous person. You know. I kind of even like it when partners I have like flirt with other people at parties, but that had always

been within the context of monogamy. And this happened right after we opened the relationship, like two days after, and so the context of knowing he could now act on it, which he did, seemed to like change my entire emotional response.

So first of all, that was just interesting. But yeah, I found all these phrases that I've only seen on I don't know, like Ricky Lake or Maury like as a child started coming into my head of like all these insults and kind of images of that, like woman lunging at another woman and things that I was horrified by because I was, like, these are not thoughts unfamiliar with. I was familiar with feeling anxious or maybe self hating, but I didn't tend to before that experience ever turn

it on other people, especially not other women. I like to think that I was, you know, not that kind of feminist. I wouldn't do that, right, And so it's very humbling of immediately like, yes, you would given the right trigger. And that was kind of the continual lesson of jealousy was that it's so primal, it gets at so many of your childhood wounds, and it's also a

word that actually encompasses many different emotions. It's it's that envy, green eyed monster, but it's also our feelings of inadequacy, our fear of abandonment. Yeah, like our feelings of enmity towards someone else that we're going to be replaced. It's anger, it's self hatred, it's anxiety and fear of the unknown. It's a perfect encapsulation of so many of the things that humans struggle with. A feeling Am I enough and

I fundamentally lovable? Is there anything that can be counted on in the future or in life while other people leave me? It makes all of that feel for a lot of people a lot more unstable. And that's why most people make the deal of monogamy is because it's difficult emotional terrain for most people. Yes, you described it. I think the chapter heading was hell perhaps something like that, because it is, I mean, being deep in that is so painful, and you just described all the different ways

it's painful. You know, it's not just one thing. I remember my son's mother left me when he was two for another guy. You know. She came home one day and said, I'm not in love with you anymore, and I'm in love with this guy. And literally fell like I descended into hell. And jealousy was a big part of that. There were a lot of things going on, you know, not living with my son was extraordinarily painful, but the jealousy that came up in that rendered me

helpless for a while. It's very intense, and at the same time, I think that's what you see throughout. I find so compelling about exploring it as this sort of emotional adventure. I felt this strong sense because of the way Adam was framing it is the more evolved way

to be. But also just a curiosity within myself. When I feel a strong emotion coming up that I don't want to identify, whether it doesn't match my values, my behavior is not matching my values or my emotional state, I get very curious to see if I can condition myself a different way, you know, Like I know, neural plasticity is real, and so I was very much like

if I could just push through this feeling. I started to hope, like, because this is so challenging and so visceral and primal, and it's so clearly getting a core wounds and beliefs about myself that I felt like, if I could just come through the other side of this feeling, like maybe I will really accept impermanence, maybe I will really experience non attachment, maybe I won't even fear death.

Because it felt like the most effective, prolonged ego challenge possible, Like I felt more challenge than I've done plenty of psychedelics alone, even and those have been useful experiences psychologically in terms of pushing myself to dissolve some of my

attachments to myself an ego. But this was the next level experience for me, and it was so prolonged and persistent, So I felt like if I could just come through, maybe I would be really fearless, or maybe I wouldn't have this attachment to my own separate identity in the same way because I had to have it challenged. This is kind of the most visceral way to challenge. Ego. Is someone you love and you're deeply attached to, and in this case that I really feared losing, which made

it even harder. Is out with someone else? Wow, that just is gonna trigger everything. Yeah, and you really went through it. You had this sort of battle of on one hand. Yes, I want to use this, use the word liberation right a lot. I want to use this to free me from these destructive emotions. You know. I want to use it too, as you said, loosen my grip on ego and lessen my fear of death. And so do you feel like you have found a way to work with it more skillfully and do you feel

like leaning into that was a helpful thing? Yeah, it's a great question. I do think leaning into it was a helpful thing. But for me I kind of had to push it so far to realize it was too much, and you kind of hit a point where it's not beneficial, it's masochism. And so I think taking it to that extreme helped me come to a place where now more than ever, I value equanimity. It's kind of like the

pendulum swung so far the other way. There was the total comfort of monogamy and no ego challenge, and I was always the one to dump. The partner was never allowing myself to be fully vulnerable. Then swung into this relationship with Animhe's a non monogamous where it was a domb sub dynamic. So I really felt like totally at someone else's mercy in so many ways and really lost

myself in that. But then when I sort of came back, it helped me find I think and value the middle of the middle way more because now I definitely am still interested in challenging myself, and I'm still interested in confronting jealousy, and I'm still non monogamous. But I would never go back to a situation or I hope, like I just I've in the book where I'm just anxious all the time, or I'm self medicating with drugs or controlling behaviors. I think I value a lot more now

the symptoms of my relationship or relationships. I should say that, Like, that's one distinction I make in the book, is like, you can really love someone and they can love you, But if you were to make a list of the symptoms that love is creating, what would it look like? And so for me at the time would have been like anxious all the time, no longer trust my own judgment, or reality like I need to be better over exercising,

controlling food, self medicating with weed. Now I'm in a situation where my partner, you know, we're still no monogamous, but it's a much less breakneck pace of things. It's a much more value and equanimity and security and safety and the symptoms of that. Maybe it doesn't always feel in every moment as intense and exciting all the time, which I think people would Anxious attachment can sometimes confuse with true love when really what they're feeling is the

chase and it feels much more secure. But the symptoms, I'm like, well, I wrote my first book, I sleep great, you know, my health is really good. I have a regular meditation practice. These are all things that I did, not my partner. But I can look at, you know, what is that relationship reinforcing? What are the symptoms of

my lifestyle and my health under the conditions. And that is an important distinction for me to show, because I think when people are stuck in relationships that are very dramatic or even in this case, you know, emotionally abusive, it gets very confusing, and sometimes people on the outside it's so obvious that's a bad situation that they can kind of be like, that's not love, and then you get further isolated because you're like, but I'm in love

and he loves me. And so it was important for me to say to the reader, I understand, like, you can really love someone and they can really love you, But can you look at that distinction of what are the symptoms of that love if you were to list them out, Yeah, what's sort of the fruit of the relationship, you know what's coming out of it. You can really deeply love slash care for someone and it be absolutely the wrong situation. I mean my most recent X that

was the case. We were a terrible fit and I was miserable through that whole relationship. But there was a great deal of care and affection and there still is. There's one other thing that you said. You touched on it there and you said it in the book, and I love this line. You said, I wasn't sure what was the discomfort necessary for growth and what pushed me

beyond healthy limits? And I think that is such a great reflection and question because we know we need to be uncomfortable to grow, right, whether it be physical, like if I want bigger muscles. I know the way that I'm going to get them is by discomfort lifting in a way that does not feel comfortable. Um, so we

know that we need to go beyond that. And yet, as you sort of described earlier, there's a way of way over shooting that mark and getting into a place where our reactions are so strong we can't grow in that environment either. There is sort of a Goldilock zone. Absolutely, And just to continue that idea of the lifting weights that if we never take rest days, we're also not

going to grow our muscles. So I think I was not valuing enough the importance of rest and stillness, and there's kind of you just see me pushing the equivalent of high intensity interval training day after day after day after day, and so in in some ways, yeah, I was in great shape, but in other ways, like I was not actually growing muscle the way I could have if I rested more, and I was more than that

not healthy. So I think people who are curious about growing emotionally and spiritually, which I imagine is most people who listen to your podcast, I think we can be particularly susceptible to that where you have to be careful that you know spiritual or emotional evolution doesn't fall into being one more thing that you have to check off

your to do list. Like I love your interviews with Oliver Berkman, who wrote For a Thousand Weeks is such a great book all about this of like we're not really valuing rest and stillness enough, and we treat even often like our leisure activities as something towards self betterment. Whereas if there's going to be some place we reach where now we meditate enough, or we push ourselves emotionally enough, or even we're still enough, then we'll you know, have arrived.

And his whole thing is like, no, there's not going to be a point where you arrive. Um, it's just right now. I think it's something I know I have to continue to work with and and just be careful with of walking that that line again, that middle way of yes, some discomfort is good, but your body will really tell you if it's the right kind. And one distinction I also like in the book is the Buddhist teacher Kaira Jewel Lingo, who I don't know if you've

interviewed her. She's great. She's had a book come out actually, because another main question I had that's similar, is what is the difference between intuition and fear? Because that started getting very confused, especially in a dynamic with someone who said, that's not your intuition, that's your fear. And so I was like, okay, I could sort of see how that's true.

And she said the difference you might understand between intuition fears that fear tends to kind of contract you and close you down, whereas intuition is a little more expansive. But again, that doesn't mean that any time you experience fear it's bad or incorrect. It's just that you can know the difference by that contraction or or that expansion.

And if you're in a situation where you're getting contracted and contracted by fear but saying no, I just need to push through this, it might be a sign that you need to like step off the gas a little bit so that you can step into more of that expansive space of intuition instead. That question of intuition is one I find endlessly fascinating because intuition feels very deep, it feels very available, it feels very strong, it feels

very right. But so do our worst and most destructive patterns, right. I mean, doing heroin felt really right to me. It felt in my bones like it was the thing to do right. That was not intuition right, And so I do think this question of determining what are our habitual conditionings and what's intuition? And I'm changing direction a little bit here, but I was reading an article you wrote. It's been a while now, it's probably six years ago.

You wrote it about being on SSR eyes and I have done the on s s R I off s s R I dance. And in that article you wrote something that really grabbed me, and it basically says, was I more authentically myself off the drugs are on them? How did I know who the real me was? And

what did that even mean? This idea of what's really me, what's really right, is such a perplexing idea because the most deep sort of Buddhist spiritual level would say, well, there is no actual essence of you there, So okay, let's set that aside for now, because one level up from that, there is very much a me that comes out of all the conditions that have evolved my life, my parents who raised me, my genetics, all these countless

causes and conditions. There are ways to be more or less healthy within that constructive personality, if we want to call it. But knowing what's the real me? Boy? Is that an endless question? Yeah? Absolutely, And I think that in some ways that's what my writing will probably always be about. And just kind of tracking the impermanence of the answer and the evolution of that I think is

really interesting to me. I mean, I think I also again how Tashi put it to me, where he said what matters is the intention and how it meets the results, So that can be one witness test that can be useful. I think he's also, since he's a Buddhist monk, is very much like you should go with whatever brings less suffering,

which I do find useful as a barometer. But I have more resistance to again because of being that kind of emotional explorer or artist type where it's like I'll take the loads I want to, you know, experience all that life has to offer. But but there is something to be said for thinking will this decision lead to

more suffering for myself and others or less? And what happens if you just keep following the one that's less and not thinking of that as a route of passivity, but rather just a way to make decisions, because sometimes the thing that will cause less suffering is actually going to require a lot of action. It might mean leaving a relationship that's really hard to leave. It might mean going vegan, it might mean doing things that are very challenging.

It's not a passive thing to prioritize less suffering, but it can be a useful way for me to see, Okay, should I push it further or not? Or who is the real me? With the antidepressant sorry, of like is this fostering like less suffering in me? And that it continues to change over different periods, you know, for now I take them again. I find it just it just makes it easier. The side effects are not such that

it's causing much suffering. But at other points in my life have been like, no, I really want to break from this. I want to feel something different. There is a suffering here to being on it of dullness, and then it's okay, I can take a break. But again with that sort of agnosticism of all right, and then when I start to suffer unnecessarily, how great that this

tool is there that could maybe help me. There is no solid real me, but there is me in this moment, and am I making it unnecessarily difficult for myself in this moment to be present with myself and others? Well, maybe that's not noble so much as kind of silly. Yeah, totally. I mean I have done, as I said, the same on again, off again dance and where that ants is. You know, the step we're on now is the on step, and maybe that's where it will stay. I don't know.

But one of the things that influence my decision to go back on them was what is the suffering I'm causing the people in my life? You know, because I just become an irritable I Am just not a lot of fun to be around, right I just have this irritation that's bristling, and I'm good at holding it in. I'm not like snapping it people. But you can feel that, you know, you can feel when you're around somebody who's

constantly irritated. So that question of suffering was one and I think it's a great question, and it doesn't mean what will make me most comfortable right this minute. You really do have to have a bigger, broader wiser view in order to discern what will cause suffering and what will not. Yeah, it's that really broad definition. Yeah, okay, I want to hit gas lighting before we run out of time. The word has come up a couple of times in the show, but it's honestly not something that

I really understand very well. I know that one of my favorite bands of all time is called the Gaslight Anthem, but I don't even think it has anything to do with the modern term of gas lighting. And I've heard it used in so many different scenarios, in different situations that I don't fully understand it. So what does it mean to you? Gaslighting? A definition is manipulating someone by

psychological means into questioning their sanity. And you can have that manipulation be conscious or not, which is tricky, but has to be that manipulation is there. And also, when I say gaslighting, I don't tend to refer to just

one instance of it. We've all probably gaslight and an argument in moments or or whatever else, um kind of unwittingly, but when it's part of this really prolonged pattern of over and over your invalidating someone else's emotional experience or reality, saying things things like no, you're wrong, or that didn't happen.

There's not a recognition that your own worldview is subjective as well, but rather it's only the other person who is subjective, and if they're not aligning with your perceptions, that they are incorrect and you need to correct that. So that's usually what gas lighting looks like is sort of invaliding someone else's emotional experience, trying to get them to align with your reality or convince them of yours, and not being able to on your side admit to

fallibility or that you're ever wrong. Really is one of the telling signs got it. That's really helpful. And I think the distinction you put in there is really helpful for me too, which is that it's not always necessarily conscious. So the person who's quote unquote doing the gas lighting may not be thinking, oh, I'm trying to invalidate this person's emotional experience so I can manipulate them. They just

think they're seeing the world as it is. Their view of the world is the way it is, and if your view of the world doesn't align with that, we've got to get you in line. Because I know better, yes, and I think Adam in his case, he really thought this was the best way to love me. That if I could just see things his way and act in accordance all the time and stop having a rational emotional response or or just kind of align with his worldview

in all moments, that I would suffer less. And so I think he often really thought it was the best way to love me. And that was very confusing because as people friends or therapists on the outside, we're saying, he's gaslighting you, Like this is not okay, Like you don't have your own opinions anymore, Like you don't trust anything about your perception or your intuition. I would say, yeah, but like he doesn't mean to be doing that. He's just kind of this very dominant, all knowing guy who's

super smart, and so that's just how he is. He's not thinking of that. So I think this misconception that someone who especially only like emotionally abuses you has to be getting up in the morning and plotting like how am I going to destroy their life today keeps a lot of people locked in those dynamics because they see how while the person doing, you know, hurt, people hurt.

So they are often suffering a lot themselves. They need, you know, someone who needs to control someone else to that degree has a deep insecurity of abandonment, a deep disowning of their own fallibility or vulnerability. And this is why you see more often anyone can gaslight, but more often in relationships comprised of a man and a woman, men are the gas lighters and women are the receiving in And I think that's just because of socialization, right.

Women have been taught to kind of adjust their feelings around what patriarchy wants and to believe more often that men are correct historically, and men have also been conditioned to think until at least very recently, their worldview is a more rational counterpoint to women's sational or rationality or craziness. And also that men have been socialized in this deeply destructive way to disown their own vulnerability and fragility and are often in relationships where they don't feel like they

can show that side of themselves. Well, it makes sense that they would then more often try to prove to themselves and others that they are correct, because they would need to reinforce that worldview if they know more they've got it under control. They are not fallible and emotionally vulnerable in the same way. And so there's a lot of suffering there. And that was really important to me

to depict an atom of like the suffering that he incurred. Yes, he was inflicting real psychological harm, but in upholding these kind of traditional values of what a man should be, so flawlessly in some ways, so dominant, so in control all the time of his emotions and his body even and he was not happy. Yeah, And it was important for me to show that because I think patriarchy is very destructive to men, totally, totally. I think you describe it.

If you're a white man, it's especially easy to internalize that your responsibility is to uphold these values for others benefit. So these values of rationality and being in control, and you know you're supposed to know best. And you said, this is its own, albeit roomier cage, you know, it's still a cage. And I think that point is so important, and I think you do a great job in the book really depicting this that Adam in his way, thinks he is really doing the best and the right thing

for you. He thinks he's caring for you. You know, even though what he's doing is clearly uncaring looking at from the outside, you can see. But as you said, hurt people hurt, and I think that is one of the toughest dynamics when you're in a difficult relationship or a bad relationship. Is this sense, you know, I can see it in the relationships I've been in the past, where there's this sense like, well, that's not who they really are, you know, back to this who is somebody

really question? You know, she's just that way because X, Y and Z. I can see the hurt that happened. I can see how these patterns formed. I can see, and you get stuck in the belief and this is a really hard one in relationships, like but maybe they're going to change, and that maybe they're going to change is quite a way of keeping you hooked in totally. And you know it's tricky because people can change and

this in every moment, right, so it's not untrue. But I think another distinction that's been useful for me is you can see and have compassion again for someone what's causing them to be harmful, And in fact, I think that's a very good exercise for people who cause harm in the world or anyone you view as an antagonist, See like, what what might be the suffering, the insecurity,

the disowned, vulnerability or fragility that's causing this behavior. You can see that and still again have boundaries and not place yourself in a situation that's going to be again causing unnecessary suffering. And I think one good thing that's helpful for me to keep in mind or that I learned, is that you think if you would just love them enough, that they'll change or you can maybe heal that part

of them and they'll stop hurting you. But you're actually just an enabler in that situation, and so you think you're helping them by having compassion, but really you're kind of reinforcing the pattern and the idea that that behaviors. Okay, And so sometimes the most compassionate thing is actually too really walk away or create a really solid boundary or whatever else it is so that you don't enable them to basically create more bad karma for themselves, because the

more they're hurting you, they're also hurting themselves. So not only is it a bad situation for you, but it's actually a very bad situation for them. Is a dynamic of gaslighting that the person who's doing the gas lighting doesn't think they need to change, or are there situations where that person is like, yeah, I really am kind of screwed up. I'm doing my best, but I keep failing. That's a different animal, right, gaslighting is I don't really

need to change. I've got the right view of the world. I'm doing things right. I didn't really do that bad thing. It's you. It's all you. Is that the dynamic? Yeah, Unfortunately, that's the dynamic, And that's one of the most telling traits is like, basically, can the person say I am not always right or say I need to change this behavior. And it's certainly possible that people who are chronic gas

lighters would therapy can work on changing themselves. But yeah, unfortunately that personality type that is one of the defining characteristics is that they will often refuse to work on themselves or say things like I tried therapy, M too smart for it or something like that, you know, or it doesn't work for me. They just think they're always right. The main delusion is thinking they're above delusion. Ah, that's a great line. And so you use the word a

couple of times in the book Narcissist. Also, you know, I know a little bit about borderline personality, and borderline personality is certainly it's never my fault. Are people who are narcissists more likely to be gas lighters? Are people who have borderline personality more likely to be gaslighters? I don't even quite know if they're the same category or what to call them, but yeah, they are more likely to exhibit gaslighting. It's one of the main characteristics. Borderline

is a narcissistic personality disorder. But certainly borderline is its own disorder. I don't think Adam had borderline personality disorder. That's a kind of specific thing. But he did exhibit narcissistic traits, as all of us do at times. But again, when it's kind of this prolonged path and of like my worldview is the correct one, you need to adhere

to it. That's a real intense form of narcissism that we see in lots of powerful people around the world might have that view of their own opinions, you know, putin for example, as a current example, that's kind of an expression of yeah, my view is correct, and everyone else be damned. It's definitely a form of narcissism. You say that gas leaders follow predictable sort of pattern. Can you share what that pattern looks like in a romantic relationship. Yeah.

One of the main characteristics in the beginning is something that psychologists called love bombing. So often when we fall in love with someone who chronically gaslights or people who are extremely narcissistic, they tend to be very charming and charismatic and very romantic. There's a lot of talk of like rescuing you and delivering you to a better life, and you can feel like you stepped into a fairy tale.

And again, this might not all be like a conscious manipulation on their part, but they this is part of how the person on the receiving end gets really hooked, because they reached this level of feeling desired and seen

and cherished on a level they've never felt before. And so as that is slowly begins to be withdrawn incrementally, the person being gas lit tries to get back to that place basically, and there's a kind of narrative established of if I could just be good enough, or if I could just you know, adapt to his way of

being nominogamous, then he'll love me again that way. So yeah, after the love bombing stage or as that's happening, often they will start criticizing you a lot, correcting a lot of things you do, and you might resist that at first, or have a fighter or even try to leave, and they'll often become sort of even like hysterical because their fear of abandonment is triggered, and you get into this kind of fight and makeup cycle, like without him that

when I tried to in the beginning, like assert certain boundaries that he would literally block the door and say, like, you can't get space, like we need to reconcile this now, we can't stay angry, and he would make me let

him touch my leg or something like that. So there was this kind of thing of like I was not allowed to even get space to be upset with him, and you would kind of become desperate to have me not leave, and you'd say, I'll do whatever you want, okay, And he would become suddenly very vulnerable, and so this kind of indomitable figure would lower himself and and beg and plead, and then you'd reconcile and the cycle would start again so something would happen where, you know, I'd

be criticized too much, or he would push too far, or I would try to stand up for I know this is not okay how you're talking to me or what you're doing, and he would get very defensive and say, no, you're wrong. And if I got the strength to try to leave, which I did many times, then he would prevent me from doing that by badging or or making promises. Another traits that if they get caught in a lie, they will never usually admit to a lie. So you

see examples of that throughout the book. Under those conditions, you become increasingly anxious, you know, because obviously you now no longer trust your own sense of reality, or someone telling you all the time that you're incorrect or that you need to change. Phrases like oh what would you do without me to take care of you are very common, so you sort of lose trust in your own self sufficiency.

And so because you're so anxious in this dynamic, that kind of feeds their argument that you're acting irrationally, that no one else will love you, you just need to change, And the cycle continues and you become increasingly as I do in the books self isolating, anxious, self medicating. You don't tell your friends or family about the problems because often the gas later will say things like Adam did of like don't say bad things about the relationship and

incriminate people against our relationship. They're gonna never like me if you say anything. So these are all patterns of of not just gaslighting, but emotional abuse as well. That's part of how it works, and it's very confusing, it's very destructive, and part of what I wanted to show is how it can really happen to anyone. I'd seen my friends be in situations like that and where I was like it was so obvious, or maybe I thought,

oh I would I would never do that. I feel bad for them, but I wouldn't fall into them too self assured. And part of what was really important to me because I had this really unusual recording of how

this unfolded over many years. Because Adam allowed me to record so many of our conversations therapy sessions, I was able to really depict almost verbatim in the book, with psychologists commenting throughout how exactly this dance works and how it happens incrementally over time to even the most self assured intelligent people. That really doesn't have anything to do with it. Dr Robin Stearns says that high achieving, ambitious women are particularly prone to being in relationships with men

who guessed like them. Why do you think that is? Yeah, they're determined to impress the one person they can't ever seem to can fully convince of their aptitude. Got it?

And also I think that these people tend to be very, very dominant personalities, and so people who are very on top of it in their professional lives tend to sometimes enjoy being submissive in their relationships or in the bedroom because it's a relief from that burden of feeling like you're always in control or have to be on top of it. So at first, it can be a relief when you're someone who's very in your head to have someone else saying, don't worry, I've got it all under control.

I know it's right, I've can figure it out for you. Um. The problem is that comes at a high price. Yeah. I had a moment a couple of weekends ago where I was in that spot. I was like, I just wish anybody like someone tell me what's the right thing, and of course knowing that that's impossible, that like a the answer is unknowable and nobody can know for me what the right thing for me is except me. But

boys that desire sometimes there. Well, I think the good news is that you emerged on the other side of this with a lot of healing and a lot of help. And you and I are going to talk in the post show conversation a little bit more about some of that. We're gonna talk about practical tips from a Buddhist monkey you recently got to, you know, help us deal with the despair of the world. We might talk a little

bit more about the signs of gas lighting. But there was a line that you use that I loved, and I thought maybe I could read it and then you could say a little bit about it and we could kind of end on it. And you said, basically, you had this growing realization that the only person who could really promise to always take care of me was me, and sort of a growth into really love and entrusting

yourself in that way. Yeah, that was such an important lesson And it's almost a cliche, you know, woman emerges from bad relationship only to love herself. But I think like there's a reason for that cliches that it's a it's a lesson a lot of people need to learn, And especially when you're socialize as a woman, you're taught to believe that your life, in many ways is something at least on the romantic front, that's going to happen

to you, like you're gonna come and be rescued. We're not taught to like necessarily go and find the prince charming right, or or ask out the person we have a crush on. There's this kind of passivity or resigning to fate, which might not always be conscious. We often don't believe in that, but it is the way we've

been taught to see our lives. Whereas they say, like men much more often are taught to view themselves in narratives, childhood narratives as sort of the action hero, the protagonist, the initiator, And that's a very different way to be socialized to go through life right. One year much more in control of and have agency, and the other one

is passive. So I think that learning to love and see myself as my own soulmate was a way of reclaiming Yes, there's hardly anything you can control in life, but I can at least promise to always be there for myself through all of it. That that's an incredibly powerful realization to lean into. And also that self nurturing is incredibly powerful, and that the only reason we think of it is soft or kind of like hippie dippy is because of the feminine energies being devalued. But there's

incredible strength in that. And and so Tara Brock, who I know, um you've had on the podcast and who I love, she was a huge part of my healing and that practice of rain learning to sit with emotions, recognize them, investigate them in the body. But then really that last step of end nurture to say to myself the things I have been depending on Adam or someone else to say this imaginary I do other of I'll always be there for you, Rachel, you know, I think

you're doing so great. I love you. If we can learn to literally say those things to ourselves, even in moments of extreme instability or grief, I think it can be really transformative and powerful, or at least it was for me awesome. Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up. As I mentioned, you and I will

continue in the post show conversation listeners. If you'd like to get access to post show conversations, add free episodes, a special episode I do each week called Teaching Song and a poem, and other great benefits of being a member. Go to One You Feed dot net slash joint Rachel, thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoy aid the book and I've really enjoyed talking with you.

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community. With this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support now. We are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support,

and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level and become a member of the One You Feed community. Go to When you Feed dot net slash. Join the One You Feed podcast. Would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.