Oren Jay Sofer on Mindful Communication

have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. M Hey, I've got some really exciting news. You can now listen to our entire back catalog completely add free, exclusively on

Stitcher Premium. You can listen to literally every single of the two and I don't know how many fifty sixty episodes we've ever done, as well as many episodes on Stitcher Premium completely ad free. You can also listen to every new episode ad free, as well as tons of other ad free wondering shows. Plus, with Stitcher Premium, you'll get access to hundreds of hours of original content, audio documentaries, and exclusive bonus episodes from some of your other favorite podcasts.

You can sign up now for a free month of Stitcher Premium by going to Stitcher premium dot com slash wondering and using the promo code Wondering. Then, once you're signed up, just download the Stitcher app for iOS or Android and start listening that Stitcher Premium dot com slash wondering and use the promo code wondering. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Orange J. Sofer, who leads retreats and workshops on mindful communication and meditation at

retreat centers and educational settings around the United States. Or And holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University and is the founder of next Step Dharma and Mindful Healthcare. Today, Eric and Oran discuss his book Say What You Mean, a Mindful Approach to non Violent Communication. Hi, Or, and welcome to the show. Thanks so much. I'm happy to have you back on you and I first talked in

a joint interview we did with you and Dan Harris. Um. It's been quite some time ago, so we've got you back to discuss your new book, which is called Say What You Mean, A Mindful Approach to Non Violent Communication, And I'm looking forward to getting into that. I know lots of listeners. Well, I guess really everybody needs help in communicating better, but I know this is an area of interest for our listeners, so we'll head there in a second. But let's start like we always do, with

the parable. There is a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness, bravery, love, and there's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grand utter stops and thinks about it for a second and looks up at her grandfather and she says, well, grandfather, which one wins?

And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Yeah, thanks so much, Eric, It's Actually it's an old Cherokee legend that I really loved. We were talking earlier. I'm teaching a meditation retreat right now, and I'm giving a talk tomorrow, and that very parable is going to be one of the organizing themes for the talk. So it's it's very near and dear to

my heart. You know, there are a couple of things that it means to me and how it applies in my life. It's really good news because it means that we're not stuck. Our minds can learn, and it depends on the choices that we make from moment to moment um. And you know, modern neuroscience is born this out that the property of neuroplasticity means that the function and the shape of our brains can actually change through repeated experience. So the more you do something, the better you get

at it. And that's that's the feeding the wolf um. So I think it's really good news for us. The the other thing about it for me, it's like if

I fall short of my expectations in some way. You know, I was sitting in a meeting the other day and I had a lot on my plate that day, so I was wanting the meeting to go as quickly as possible, and so I was a little bit more tense than I than I usually am or like to be, And at the end of the meeting, I kind of regretted, you know, that I was not more relaxed and patient in the flow of the meeting and instead of beating myself up, like, instead of getting down on myself or

judging myself, this perspective of the two wolves helps me to recognize, oh, okay, well, for the last hour or two, I was feeding the wolf that is not helpful in my life. So now I see that and I can do it differently, So it takes it out of the personal. It's not like something about me personally. It's just a matter of the choices that I make, and that that gives me a lot of hope for not only myself, but for us as a species and being able to

do things differently. Yeah, I really like that thinking of it as good news. And the other piece that I really like about the parable that I reflect on is kind of what you said that sort of insinuates that we all have this battle, and like you said, that makes it a little bit less personal to me, that it's like you know, regardless of who we are and where we are in life, that that we have our moments where things are more challenging than others. And that's

just the way life is. Yeah, and it's one of the it's one of the gifts and the beauties of not only contemplative practice, but all of the wonderful things that we are learning today, like positive psychology and growth mindset, which is that we have these potentials, right, we have the potential to um cause harm and be petty and small and jealous and self centered in life, and we have the potential to learn and grow and to actually

aspire to something really beautiful and realize our potential as human beings, which is so vast. And so this this parable kind of points us in that direction. Indeed it does. So let's move into your book, which, as I mentioned earlier, is called Say what you Mean? A Mindful Approach to Non Violent Communication. And I wanted to start by having

you lay out the three steps to create effective conversation. Yeah. Sure, So maybe let me just frame it first, which is that we all have experiences in life where we have conversations that go awry, where it goes south and we end up making a big mess that hopefully we can

clean up later, and sometimes we can't. And then we have these other experiences in life where are there's some conflict or difference or disagreements or issue that we're working with, whether it's in our family or at work, and for whatever reason, we're able to actually see it through. Right. We work together, we listen to each other, we get past any disagreements or tensions, and we come out the

other side often stronger in the relationship. Not only that, we often we learn about each other um and when we can work things out, the results are often better than had we just been working on our own. So the question is what makes the difference, right, like why is it In some conversations it goes one way and

in other conversations it goes another. So what a lot of my work is about is helping people to understand the conditions that create those conversations that are more meaningful and effective, so that we can start to just to go back to the parable against we can start to feed that wolf, so we can start to um reinforce those conditions in ourselves so that we're more likely to have the kinds of conversations and relationships that we want

in our life. So what are the three steps? So I summarize the whole process of training around this in three core steps. The first is to lead with presence, The second is to come from curiosity and care that's about our intention, and then the third is to focus on what matters, which is about what we're paying attention to, how we're actually navigating the conversation in terms of what we say and how we listen. And each of these is its own kind of deep training. So maybe we

can get into that a little bit and explore them. Yeah, why don't we just start with lead with presence, maybe lead us into some of what is in that training. This is one of those blazing insights to the obvious that as a colleague of mine says that we need to be here before we can actually have a meaningful conversation. So communication is about understanding one another, whether we're trying to build a bridge or you know, wanting to get closer in some way as friends or or family members.

The currency of communication is meaning is understanding, and if you want to understand something, you need to actually be present. So leading with presence means that before anything else, before what we say, our agenda, how we're feeling, what we want from the other person. Before any of that we just show up. Can we actually just be aresn't with one another? That's the foundation. If we can't do that,

then we're on automatic. We're just running on habit, and chances are those habits aren't going to be serving us as well as if we were really present and had access to our wisdom, the skills that we've learned, and our best intentions. So the challenge here is that, you know, we live in a society that's incredibly fast paced, that's disembodied, where you know, so much of our time is focused

on screens, the intellect, the future UM. And because of the pace of our lives and the presence of technology, UM, most people are living with a kind of fragmented attention where it's very difficult to focus and settle the mind on any one thing. So leading with presents actually takes training to be able to learn how to stay really grounded and clear and embodied with another human being in a conversation. And so an obvious training for being more

presence would be mindfulness. What other types of trainings or what other types of tools help us to be more present. You've got principles that you scatter throughout the book, and one of them is that presents lays the ground for connections. So what are some tools for us to stay more present. Let me speak to that principle first, and then i'll and then I'll offer a few really practical tips for

for bringing this into our lives. We can feel it when someone's really present or not right if if we can be talking to someone, they can be looking at us right in the eyes, and we can tell if their mind is somewhere else, if they're not really listening, and their reverse if someone's really giving us their full attention, if they're actually present, it says something powerful, right, It says like you're important to me. I'm actually willing to give you my time right now. And so that's what

lays the ground for connection. It's a it's one of the most important conditions for having an effective conversation. A few ways to do this In terms of mindfulness, we can bring some awareness, some attention into our body. Because the body is always in the present moment, the mind can go into the past and the future. It can you know, travel a thousand miles in a split second. But when you're aware of a sensation in the body for that moment, you're present, because sensations don't exist in

the past or the future. So one way to lead with presence is in the in a conversation, if you can just bring a little bit of attention into your body, they just feel the weight of your body, or your hands, or the contact between your bottom and the chair if you're sitting, or your feet on the floor, anything like that will start to help us to be more present in a conversation. So that's that's one that's one way

to explore it. I was just going to ask about that because I read that in the book and I thought a little bit about it, and it occurs to me that being present to conversation is something that I wrestle with often because I him and a lot of conversations, both for interviews with coaching clients, lots of different things, and sometimes I find if I try and notice myself being more present, I'm suddenly having trouble paying attention to

what is being said to me. Yeah, it's a very common thing that happens at first, and it feels like the our attention starts flipping back and forth from the other person to ourselves. So there's a difference between being present and be becoming self conscious, right, getting kind of caught up or wrapped up in our own thoughts or experience. And what we're going for here is a very natural state of awareness where we're present, but we're also oriented

to our environment. So this is the kind of feeling you have when say you're out for a walk and maybe it's just rained, and then it's and then it's cleared, and the sun's come out, and it's really the air is fresh and clear, and you know, maybe you're walking outside in a natural setting and everything feels vibrant in a lot five and we can feel our body and all of our senses are alert, and we're also really

connected to the environment around us. We're taking everything in, and the sense of being present and connected to myself rather than blocking out my surroundings actually puts me more deeply in touch with the world around me. That's the kind of presence we're going for. And as I said, it's a very natural state for human beings. Our nervous systems are designed to be balanced and oriented to our environment.

But as I was saying before, the pace and structure of modern civilization takes us out of that, so we need to recover that. We need to learn how to return to it more and more, and over time that capacity grows and it becomes much more familiar to be able to kind of rest in a state of feeling connected to yourself but also in touch with and open to what's happening with someone else or around us. So there are two more really accessible to rules that I

want to offer to everyone for leading with presents. One of these is just pausing, so it doesn't need to be a long pause, just like I took there just half a breath. And what that does is it gives us a moment to gather our attention, to let our thoughts collect, to center ourselves. So it can be very

powerful to just pause for a moment. And if it's a heated conversation where you don't want to seed ground to the other person, you can insert a pause by actually saying something like I think I need a moment to gather my thoughts, or I want to take that in for a sec hang on, or just give me a second I want to think about that, and it signals to the other person socially, I'm taking in what you said, and I really want to respond in a

way that's going to be helpful and careful. So pausing is one another really powerful way to lead with presents is to begin to explore the pace of our speech. So there's so much tied up in this, I'll just touch on a few things. But number one, we speak with our breath, and our breath is tied to our nervous system. So any modulation in the pace of our

speech automatically starts to affect our nervous system. So if we're getting caught up or overactivated or losing our cool in a conversation, if we dial the pace of our speech back a little bit, that can help us to start to self regulate so that we don't lose our cool. The other thing that does is, obviously, without making it over exaggerated, has to be natural. But when we take our time with our words, it communicates a sense of weight and a certain kind of power in what we're saying.

That the implicit messages I'm confident that what I have to say is worthwhile, and so I'm going to take my time and sharing it because I think it's going to be valuable or contribution to you in some way. So, um, playing with the pace of our speech help us to lead with presents and settle. It can also really go a long way to inviting the listener's attention to be

more focused and available for us. I think that my editor Chris would love to hear me take more pauses and speak more slowly instead of stammering over sentences as I try and think of the next of the next

thing to say. But one of the things that you point out is you go through all this is you you have a lot of practices in the book, and you often recommend that people take these out for a spin, either in low stakes conversations or specifically if they have somebody they can be working with on this, to actually practice with someone who sort of knows they're practicing in a sense, instead of trying to bring these things into high stakes conversations and bring these skills that we don't

really have yet to the table. Yeah, it's a really important principle. I call it sometimes I call it the five pound way principle or the shallow end of the pool principle. And the idea here is, you know, like if you're training. You don't start with a hundred pound weight. If you're learning to swim, you don't. You don't jump in the ocean. You start in the shallow end of the pool. You build capacity where it's easy. And so the hard part is that we're all communicating all the

time and we need these skills. Like yesterday, it's like difficult conversations. Don't schedule themselves, like I think I'll wait till Friday to have you know, to show up in your face that there's this big blow out at work. It's like, oh my god, here I am. I'm stuck. I'm going to use whatever I can. So we do the best we can. And at the same time, our communication patterns are learned early in life, so they get set, and they get set in their mind, and they get

set in their nervous system. So what that means is is kind of a double edged sword. On the one hand, it's going to take time to shift them because we're each carrying, you know, at least a few decades, a couple a few decades of condition in our communication um and yet precisely because they are formed, shaped and learned, if we're diligent and we actually give ourselves a chance

and take the time we can relearn reshape them. So the best way to do that is by having very concerted periods of practice actually training ourselves to listen and speak and be present in different ways. And so the easiest way to do that is where you're not under a lot of pressure, where you can actually make mistakes and learn from them, whether it's with a good friend or just kind of doing it on the sly when you're just hanging out with people and it doesn't matter

as much. You've got another principle in this section of the book that I think is really useful for what we're talking about and speaks to a broader idea, which is the more where we are, the more choice we have in terms of leading with presents. Right, we're talking about like well why should I do that? And we we've hit on a few of these points, so like, well, you've got to be here first if you want to

understand something. It sends a message to the other person that you're actually actually are interested enough to listen to them, which is really important for a conversation. Um, and this, this last principle you mentioned is kind of the crux, which is that When we are present, we have a lot more choice, and that that means we have access to our power. If we are not present, like our friend Dan Harris says, you know, we're getting yanked around

by our thoughts and our impulses in our habits. So the more aware we are, if we can actually bring this quality of presence into our conversations and relationships, we can steer, we can navigate, we can make choices moment to moment about how do I want to respond? You know, just think about how much grief we could have each saved ourselves had we been able to pause and hold our tongue for just two or three seconds, or had we been able to wait instead of hitting send on

that email. Right, So that's the choice factor is huge in terms of the quality of our relationships and the effectiveness we have in our lives exactly. So let's move into the second step, which is to come from curiosity and care. This is huge. This is where where we really start to get into some of the mystery of communication, because it is really mysterious this capacity that we have as human beings to send and receive messages and basically

share our internal worlds with one another. So so much of communication is actually not in the words that we say. And there have been a number of different studies done by linguists and psychologists, and depending on the context, the percentages vary, but a huge amount of the message that we send and receive in communication is nonverbal. It's not the words, it's the tone of voice, the body language,

the facial expressions. So what this means is that you can be using the most kind of clear and precise we could even say like skillful or correct communication phrases and sentences, but if you're coming from the wrong place inside, like if you're really just trying to pull one on, pull one over on this person, or manipulate the situation and or blame someone, and you polish it all up with nice words, they're still going to feel that you

know this, it's still going to come across. So the thing that's shaping our nonverbal communication primarily is our intention where we're coming from inside. So this is this is the key to skillful communication, or one of the main keys, which is that it's not about what we say, it's about where we're coming from. And then the quality of

understanding that we're able to create. So two of the most powerful intentions that we can have in a conversation are number one, the intention to understand, just the very simple basic willingness to have an open mind and listen in the similar way to being present, That transforms the whole atmosphere of a conversation. The second quality is this

quality of care or kindness. You know, when things are when things are tense, um, when we're when we're at each other's throats, or we've we've hurt one another in some way, or we're frustrated or irritated. You know, just a few words of kindness or just a gesture of warmth can go such a long way to shifting the whole tone of a conversation and inviting someone back in.

I keep coming back to the wolf analogy, like inviting someone back in to that good wolf, to that that sense of like, hey, you know, like we don't have to do it this way. We have a potential as human beings to relate in a different way. That piece right there about bringing back some element of carrot makes me think of um a phrase from another communication book that I love. It's called Crucial Conversations, but it talks about the idea that without a sense of safety, no

real useful conversation can occur. And and sometimes all that's needed for safety is just a reminder like I care right or I'm listening either of those right, Like I want to understand where you're coming from. And and you know, these two first principles, these two first steps of lead with presence and come from curiosity and care very much are about creating those conditions of safety were present. We're

here with one another, we're actually willing to listen. And this quality of care I want to I want to be really clear about it, because it's easy to listen to that and go like, well, what if I don't care about this person? You know, like I don't. I don't particularly like everyone in my life. I have my preferences. You know. That's okay. It doesn't mean we have to like everyone. What it means is that, um, we are connected to the quality of basic human warmth in our

own heart. I don't have to like someone to treat them with kindness. It's actually about taking care of my own heart and mind and not letting my consciousness move into hatred and jealousy or resentment, because first and foremost that's going to mess up my own mind, my own day. So if I can stay connected to what I care about, my own values of kindness and respect and collaboration, and then that's going to inform how I show up in

the conversation. And this is really powerful. And one of the stories that I tell in the book is um I'll just summarize it briefly here so he can, you know, get into some of the other tools. But this amazing story of African American musician named Darryl Davis who, through the power of his genuine intention to understand and show kindness and respect um in conversations with members of the

KKK from southern Maryland. You know, forty or fifty members of the organization left based on their relationships with him through the power of conversation, and the main tool that he was using was his his intention, his willingness to treat them with kindness and respect and be genuinely curious. And through the force of that, through the force of who he was and how he related, they started to actually respect him and recognize this person, you know, is

actually showing up in a in a powerful way. Some of my ideas might not be what I thought, they were, so, what are some tools or practices for coming from curiosity and care? Yeah? So, um. One of the most accessible that that I like to share with people is is actually a short phrase that both reminds us because some of this, a lot of this is about just remembering, right, It's about just remembering like, oh, like, let me actually listen to this person, you know, let me see let

me try to actually understand where they're coming from. Like, once we remember that idea, we can get curious, we can start to actually connect. So one of the ways of doing that is by using a short phrase like let me see if I'm following you, or I want to make sure I'm still with you, or let me let me see a I've got it where I'd really

like to understand where you're coming from. So saying something like that reminds us of our intention and it also signals to the other person that we're trying to understand. So that's that's one very accessible way because we don't we don't need a whole lot of tools. We all know how to get curious. It's it's it's innate, the desire to learn as human beings. We just have to remember it in a conversation. So that's one, that's one

way of doing it. Let me share one other, really important one which is kind of at the heart of this work, one of the core premises and perspectives of nonviolent communication, which is the communication technique that's at the

core of UM. Some of what I teach comes out of humanistic psychology, out of the work of Abraham Maslow and Karl Rogers, which is this idea that part of what makes us human is that we share certain universal fundamental needs, and that all of our behavior, your all of our words, our actions can be understood as an attempt to meet a need, some basic need. So one

way to get curious is to is to listen. In this particular way is to try to listen for what matters to this person, what do they actually need, what's important to this person. This really allows us to start to connect, particularly when we disagree, because we can get down to a deeper level where we actually start to see what we have in common, which is our shared

human needs. Right, And I think you know, this idea of coming from curiosity is so important because very often, particularly in relationships with people we know well, we sort of think we know exactly why somebody is saying something, right, we sort of we're reading motivation into everything that is

being said. But if we can become a little bit more curious and open that back up instead of assuming I know why they're doing this, but to your point, to be curious about what they're saying and why and and what is it that they need underneath that. I think that if we can, if we can suspend that judgment a little bit and look at the question and new,

it can be really helpful. You're pointing to something really really key, Eric, I think, which is which is that a lot of our conflicts, a lot of our struggles interpersonally and suffering relationally in life is due to reacting to things that aren't actually there where we're making interpretations, jumping to conclusions, as you said, reading motivations into someone

else without actually checking it out. And so so there's a certain quality of humility that's required here too to recognize maybe I don't know you know, And the key here is okay, So then you've got an idea like, Okay, this person's just trying to get their way, Okay, let me have an open mind, let me see, and you ask into it, and it's like, oh, they are just trying to get their way. So then it's about this deeper kind of listening to really be curious to see,

well can I can I relate to that? Have I ever tried to just get my way in life? Well? Yeah, I do that sometimes. You know, Oh I can relate to that. Like, there, they must be really concerned about something. They must care really deeply about this, This must be really important to them. Where we're trying to put ourselves in the other person's shoes and see things from their perspective, and that doesn't mean that we agree with them or

their choices. It just means that we see their humanity. Right. I think this might be a good time for us to talk a little bit about needs and strategies, because I think that this is a place that we often get confused, both in what we're doing but also with what someone else is doing. Can you share with me the difference or with us the difference between needs and strategies? Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's a it's a key concept that that's

necessary to really be able to use these tools. So the idea here is that as human beings, everything that we do our our choices, our behaviors, you and I talking today on this podcast. Everyone who's listening right now. These are strategies. These are about what we want, their ideas, they're our best guests at what might work for us

to get something that's more important. Right, So, our strategies are what we want, Our needs are why we want it at the deeper level, what we think it's going to give us, what actually matters to us that we're trying to fulfill on some deeper level in life. You know. So whether it's well, I'm going to the gym because I want to feel good, I want to be healthy, that's the gym is the strategy. The health and the well being is the need. The implications of this are

actually quite profound in our lives. So in terms of our own choices and behavior, when we are not aware of the distinction between our strategies and our needs, we're bound to continue repeating the same behavior without knowing why. So he's just a quick story. Um. One person came to a workshop, heard this idea, was driving home and reached for a cigarette and stopped and said, Okay, let's see if this stuff is actually true, then my wanting to light up a cigarette and have a smoke is

a strategy to meet some needs. All right, well what needs do I have? And they thought about it and realized, I want to relax, you know, I want to take a break, take my mind off things. And in that moment they saw totally clearly, I've got way better ways to relax and take my mind off things than destroying my health by smoking, and they stopped smoking. Right. Yeah. My girlfriend gives an example of this about you know, when she used to eat emotionally and she she thought,

you know, that what she wanted was a cupcake. She's like, I want a cupcake. I want a cupcake. But when she realized that what was happening was deeper than that, that it was a need for emotional soothing, she suddenly went, oh, there's lots of ways to meet this need. When I think it's the cupcake, the only thing that will suffice is the cupcake. But when I realized what it is at a deeper level, there's lots of ways. There's lots of strategies to use our terminology here, there's lots of

strategies that can use to meet that need exactly. And so that in our own life that gives us a lot more choice and then relationally in terms of our conflicts. The understanding here is that our conflicts tend to happen at the level of our strategies. I want this and you want that, And then if we only stay at that level, we don't get anywhere. We just keep butting

heads because my strategy and your strategy don't match. But if we can, if we can shift down a level below those positions to the d paper concerns, objectives or needs or values like what's this about for you? Why do you want this thing so important so so badly, And then we can start to actually not only understand each other, but it opens up that whole playing field to see, well, maybe there are other strategies that we can find that might work for both of us exactly.

So this is yeah, So this is this is where the whole field of collaboration and mediation and the possibility of a win win comes in m let's head two step three, which is to focus on what matters. So we get sidetracked and conversations all the time by getting caught up in the petty stuff, arguing about things that

don't really matter. Um focusing on our judgments of one another, our beliefs, our interpretations, and we want to learn to train our attention to be able to parse out in any not only in a situation, but moment to moment in a conversation like what's needed right now? And so this is the this is the whole training of the kind of flow and the dance of communication. At the core, it means this this key element we've been talking about, which is what are the what are the basic needs?

What's the objective here? What matters? That's the most important aspect of focusing on what matters is identifying that for oneself and for someone else. But then there's a whole host of other things that matter in a conversation, like sometimes someone's got a lot of emotions and they really want to be heard. You know, most of the time when we speak, it's because we want to be listened to.

We want to be heard and understood. So in a conversation, you know, if you and I are trying to deal with something and you're telling me like Uren, you know when this happened is really upsetting for me, and I can't believe you did that, and you know, like you know, WTF, and I respond by giving you my whole story about what was going on and why instead of actually just hearing you and being like, oh my god, Eric, it sounds like that totally didn't work for you. It really

messed up your whole flow. Yeah, I get that, Like, in that moment, what's most important is not my story, it's actually giving you the experience of feeling heard. So that's just one example of focusing on what matters is it's learning to a tune in a conversation to just what's needed in each moment, and so what are some other examples of that. Other examples are sometimes what's mattered is showing up and listening, giving the other person the

relief of feeling heard. Sometimes what's most important is speaking up for ourselves and for our own integrity or in order for us to be heard. Sometimes what's what's important is clarifying what actually happened, right, being able to make

a clear observation. So this is one of the the four components of the non violent communication model, which which maybe we can go through a little bit, which is this this method of training our attention to focus on areas of our relationships and conversations that make it easier

to understand one another and and actually work together. So instead of our interpretations and judgments about what happened, just getting clear about the specific data that we are responding to in our environment, being able to make a clear observation. So and sometimes in a conflict we have, we have different data that we're responding to, And what's important is

actually clarifying I thought this was supposed to happen. No, I understood it was going to be this way, and the whole thing is just a misunderstanding about the data. So clarifying the observations what actually happened can be what's most important in a given moment. We already already touched on. The second element of our emotions are feelings. So something happened,

that's an observation, how do I feel about it? Really being able to make space for our experience as a human being, for the emotions, and honoring that that's just part of how we're built. It's not a problem. It doesn't mean anything about us or the other person. It's just this way our body and mind sends us information and signals about about our our environment, and then most importantly, connecting those feelings to why, what matters? What are the needs?

And this is this is a key friends between this particular model and a lot of other models, is that our emotions aren't about what other people do or say. That's a very disempowered position to say, like I feel upset because you did this. You've got all the power if, if, if you can make me feel something. Instead, the understanding is that our emotions are actually about our own needs, what matters to us. And if if you know, we just step back and consider it actually makes a lot

of sense. It's like if we didn't care about something, we wouldn't be feeling any emotions about it. We only feel emotions about things that matter to us. So our

emotions are a reflection of our deeper needs. So what's actually important and in the last components is about making a request, which is where do we go from here, Like what's going to be useful right now in this moment to move the conversation forward once, So let's break that down a little bit more because you've you've kind of gone through these four elements of the nonviolent communication model. So observations, feelings, needs, and requests and so observations are

actually what we see happen. That's what we're responding to in our environments, you know, the what we see or hear around us. And it's easier said than done. You know, a lot of times we think, we think in terms of judgments like that was the best movie ever? Or stop being so rude, you're being disrespectful. Those are the kinds of perceptions that we tend to live in in our own mind and how we tend to speak to one another. And if we start to examine it, we see, okay, well,

what's actually what's what's more true? Is it more true to say you're being rude or to say that you spoke to me in a way that I didn't enjoy, that didn't meet my need for respect. So clearly owning, owning the experience and relating it to my own values and standards is actually more authentic and more true. And the value of this is that there's nothing to argue with. If I come to you and I say, like, you know, what you did the other day was so rude and disrespectful,

we're already in an argument. You're on the defensive, I'm judging you. You've got to stand up for yourself. Whereas if I come to you and I say to someone, I say, you know, the way that went down the other day, it really didn't work for me. I felt, I felt confused, I felt shocked, and to be honest, a little bit upset because it didn't meet my needs for respect and just how I liked how I like to live my life. In terms of knowing we're on

the same page, there's nothing to argue with there. In terms of I'm expressing my experience to you, and then I might follow that up with at the end very important, I want to make a request. I want to let the other person know why am I saying this to you? What do I want from you right now? And so that request might be like, you know, could you tell me what was going on for you when that happened?

I really I would like to understand more, or if I'm wanting to be understood, I might ask for the other person to to just listen and try to offer some understanding. You know, could you understand why why I might react that way? Where I'm coming from here. So in what you're describing, I'm stating sort of what I felt, kind of what my need was and what my request

was mh yeah. And the thing that's tricky about this is that, and this is one of the most common pitfalls of nonviolent communication is that it's both a strength and a weakness. So the strength is that we've got this really clear, simple form a structure. It's like, okay, observation, feeling, need, request, what happened? How do I feel about it? Why? What? Where? What would I like to have happened next? That's like super helpful to be able to break things down. Now.

The danger there is that we start to speak in ways that are formulaic and robotic, and and then other people are like, dude, will you just say what's going on for you instead of trying to be so you know, convoluted about it. So one of the things I like to say is that nonvolent communication is a skeleton. It's

a structure. It's not a script. It's not that we're it's not that it's saying always speak in this way, but it's saying, try to get clear on these particular aspects of your experience internally, so that we can shift from a certain kind of consciousness, a certain way of seeing that's that's habitual and conditioned, where we're blaming other people when our needs aren't met. That is a counterproductive,

suicidal strategy. If I want, if I want somebody to do something differently, how many people respond to blame and judgment and criticism by saying, oh, thank you for educating and enlightening me. I would be delighted to change my behavior for you. It doesn't happen that way. It's much more likely that someone's going to be responsive to us if instead of blaming them, we just say, yo, this didn't really work for me, here's why. So that's the shift.

It's very simple when I put it that way. But this pattern of blaming people when our needs aren't met, when they do something we don't like, is goes very deep. So this is why we talk about non violent communication as an awareness practice. It's actually about shifting our our consciousness, our perspective, and we use those steps, those tools to to really own what's going on for us inside, so we're clear about how we're feeling, what matters to us.

And then the request, instead of being a demand you must do this, the request is an open door. It's an invitation to explore something together and say, here's one idea, what do you think about this with the observation piece that we are talking about, I think the understanding that that I have here is to describe something that's observable, not a judgment, as clear and specific and neutral, non

judgmental as possible. It's like, just the data. We want to give someone a reference point, basically, a context for the conversation. And so then here's this observation. And again I'm trying to make a formula out of this, but but I'm well, I'm not. I'm trying to actually just do a very quick education on a on a more

complex topic. But here's the observation or here's the data, and then and then, um, I felt this as a result of that, or to be to be more specific, I felt this in relation that there's this observation in my need together create this feeling. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so the feeling part is interesting because it really depends on the context whether or not that's going to be useful to share, right, because again it's it's it's really important to keep in mind the whole, the whole point

of these tools, which is to build understanding. We want to be able to hear hear one another, and so you know, if it's a work situation, depending on the culture of your workplace, feelings and emotions might not be welcome to discuss. But we can still talk about what matters. We can still talk about our objectives, our goals, um, what how we like to work together, those sorts of things.

So whether or not we include the feelings really depends on the context that the key is, Look, here's what's happened. Maybe here's how I feel about it, and then here's why that's the most important piece. Here's what here's what's important to me. Here's why this worked or why this

didn't work. We we we we want to communicate to the other person something that helps them to understand where we're coming from in a way that makes sense to them, that says this is It's not about you know, blaming them, it's about saying, look, you know, we all this is probably something that we all value. So if it's a workplace, it's like, you know, um, I really like to have all the information before I start a project so that

I can use my time as efficiently as possible. Who's going to argue with that, right, It's like, so you know, when you so when you emailed me two days into the project and said, oh, by the way, it also needs to do this, you know, I was kind of a little frustrating for me, and and then we might come to the request and then that's about being clear. Okay, what's our goal in having this conversation. Are we trying

to understand and take apart what happened? Are we trying to make an agreement for how to do it differently next time? Or are we just wanting some sense of like, you know, I just want you to understand the impact this had on me. That would be really meaningful if you could hear that. And each of those is going to be a slightly different conversation. So being clear going into the conversation about Look, what's my ultimate aim here? What's my objective? Am I wanting to do things differently

in the future? Am I wanting understanding? Am I wanting information from them? Is it all of the above? And then if so, can I take those one step at a time? Totally makes sense. Well, we have run out of time here and you and I are going to talk a little bit more in the post show conversation about the four habitual ways of responding to conflict and listeners.

If you're interested in that, you can get access to the post show conversations by going to one you Feed dot net slash support and becoming a member or in Thank you so much for taking the time to come on. The book is really good, really helpful, and I feel like we really just scratch the surface here, so I hope listeners will investigate more. Yeah, thanks so much. Eric, It's it's been great to be on the show. And you know, just kind of like parting words to everyone

who's listening. Um, this stuff will change your life and it doesn't take a lot, you know, one small shift in your communication patterns, because we rely on it so much, we'll have an effect in every area and every relationship on your life. So, whether or not you follow up and check out the book, take one thing that you've heard on the podcast today that makes sense to you and use it put it into practice. That is great advice.

Thanks so much, my pleasure. Okay, take care bite. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head over to one you Feed dot net slash support. The One you Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show,