Oliver James on Breath and Body Work Practices

or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.

Our guest on this episode is Oliver James. He's a body lead, psychotherapist and breath worker known for integrating breath movement and body work to support personal transformation and self exploration. Today, Eric and Oliver discussed his book twenty one breath Hi Ali, welcome to the show. Hey Eric, how are you doing.

I am excited to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book called twenty one Breaths, and you've done a lot of study on breath work, which is an area I'm really interested in, and so we're going to get into that in a minute. But let's start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with a grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that

are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparents, which one wins, and the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. So I have loved listening.

I've listened to quite a few of your podcasts and really enjoyed them, and I was really looking forward to this question. I'm not a big fan of it. Actually, more of the more people are saying that, but it doesn't sort of take away from it. I think it's a beautiful parable. But from my own point of view, I think, are you open to role play for a moment? So I'm wondering if you can say the final part of it again and if it's okay, I want to play the kid? Is that all right? Because I think

the parable is missing something all right? So the grandparents says there's a bad wolf which represents things like greed and hatred and fear, and then the granddad obviously says who wins, and that's the one. The one who wins is the one you feed. So as the kid, I would say, it sounds like the bad wolf is going to be incredibly hungry grandad. Isn't it dangerous to have

a hungry wolf? And here in lies the issue for me that I think a hundred maybe a few thousand years ago, the good and the bad was incredibly important for us as humanity, just to work out some morality and kindness and how to treat human beings. But sort of roll onto where we are today. I think the black and the white is really hurting us to sort of be so fixed with it. Of course, good is important. Bad,

let's face it, let's challenge it. But when it comes to feeding one over the other, my experience as a psychotherapist and really just as a person, If I just keep feeding this good part of myself, at some point I'm human, I'm going to fall down. And I worry, but people I worry for for us if we are unable to handle those darker moments, because they will happen, they absolutely do. We all trip up, we will fall.

We have greed, we're cruel, and anyone that thinks they're not, I mean, that's wonderful for you, But from my own perspective, I'm interested when that sort of shadows off for the dark side. There's so much energy there that we can use, and in my own work we use it's body lead psychotherapy. So if someone sort of all light and good, that's wonderful, But often you never get to the real crux of the situation, and you can see it in their body,

you can see it in their posture. So just getting them to breathe and move in a particular way and suddenly this kind of darkness comes out and it's laughter and it's growling, and it's these incredible qualities that have energy, have sustenance in it, and we can use it. We can use that energy for good. So I would just say I would be very in mind full of the black and white? Where's the gray? And when that dark side comes out? Why is it there? What do you

know about it? How are you going to handle it? And also how do you prevent yourself being pulled apart by it? Yeah, that's a great response. Isn't a hungry wolf dangerous? And it's interesting because I am such a middleway kind of guy. It's interesting that I started show off with a parable that is sort of in some ways black and white. You know. I always sort of returned to just the idea of choice, the direction we turn with choice. But I am interested in what you

said they're about. I don't have it exactly right. A body body leads psychotherapy, body leads psychotherapy? Tell me about that, Okay, So I think most people are quite familiar with psychotherapy or talk based therapy. You go to a therapist for a particular reason. People tend to go when something is very challenging in their life. And you would talk about the issue and share what's going on, splore consciousness through

predominantly speaking, certain things are changing a little bit. So in my own work and or I guess anybody leads psychotherapist, we are very interested in what people have to say, but we're also interested in the conversation the body has

to say. There's a saying that we often talk about that the body doesn't lie, so someone can say whatever they would like to say, and in session often you'll find that the gift of the therapist is to spot where someone has said something that may be not authentic to themselves. As a body leeds psychotherapist. It's really simple.

You can read it in their posture, in what their eyes are doing, how their faces flickering, how their tissue colors or discolors all kind of shines there, and it's like, oh, really, so that's what you feel. That is not what your body is saying. Let's see what that would like to do.

And so you can use breath, posture mirroring all of this, just start moving the body and suddenly a different side normally comes through something that it has that authenticity, and you know, things like trauma often the speaking about it can set things off for it never really touches it, but using really gentle movements, breathing again, but also maybe some touch, like agreed and trustful touch just sort of slows the whole nervous system, every part of the body

down and beautiful things can happen from that place. So with body lead psychotherapy, one level of it is looking for where what the person is saying is not matching what's happening in their body. And it also sounds to me like you're using, as you said, breath, touch, different things to try and get clients to be able to access places that the conscious mind is not able to go absolutely not connecting with avoiding blocked too, and tissue

holds many of those blocks. So you can just do a very easy movement, moving the arms, moving the spine, all of that and slowly freeze up. You can really tell if someone's very rigid and tight in their thinking. You hear it and how they think and express themselves. Often that tightness and rigidity is all in the body, maybe in the neck, maybe in part of the spine.

If you watch someone move, you can see these these tightness is it's something that you sort of want to be gentle with it also requires a lot of trust and a lot of agreement. So I wouldn't go around reading everyone at the bus stop, for example, and being like, oh my goodness, what's that about. But at the same time, I did it in the beginning when I was training, and it was actually tiring and painful to do it. But yes, you're getting permission and then sort of observing

and just taking someone in. And also there's a lot of in therapy. There's always relationship, so that comes out in body let's psychotherapy as well, placing yourself in the first session, just even walking up to someone standing back, finding out where they are most comfortable with you and why,

or turning the body getting them to move around. And but when you find them really energized, like oh I love you being literally five ms away that is comfortable for me, and some people you can walk right into them and sort of smack chests and then you're like, wow, okay, so maybe no boundaries at all. Yeah, they're like, yes, it's fine. I think it's interesting to look at the

places these modalities crossover. You know, in my own life, I've done a lot of different practices of all different kinds over the years, but they've primarily been sort of siloed. I can see the connections between them, but they're not actually happening at the same time. So, you know, I've been to therapy a lot, and it's sitting there talking. You know, I've done an awful lot of meditation and it's sitting there quietly. You know, I've done breathing, but

it's just breathing. One of the things that I noticed in your book that I thought was in Tristan was there's certainly breathing happening, but there's a fair amount of movement happening as well. I did notice right away across over there, you know, between breath and movement, and it sounds like, you know, in your private work you do

with people, you're layering psychotherapy even on top of that foundation. Yes, I was gonna say, we listen, we're gonna have to do a session sometime because you've done breathwork and it was just breathing. For me that it's very rarely just breathing. And I got a little bit confused by my working identity. A few years ago, I was a pilates teacher, and then I noticed things coming out with with clients. I

could see something wasn't right with their body. And also suddenly they started sharing a lot with me, sharing about their private lives. And I remember my teacher at the time saying, you are not a therapist, don't get involved. And I suddenly realized, wait, but what if that is going to be helpful for someone. So then I started training as a body lets like a therapist, and it has opened up a whole new world to me. It's not separating breath from psychotherapy from body work, it's bringing

it all in. And sometimes you need that segregation because to do breathing could be very intense. You can read it in the body. In fact, if someone has in particular what we call a very young wounding, so perhaps something happened inside the womb or maybe the first year. If they had no words at the time when that trauma happened, it can be very difficult to talk about it.

So you might go into something different. You might lie them down and there's no words in this place, just let them make sounds and movements, and suddenly stuff comes out that was very unexpected. And so sometimes breath work can be a little bit disturbing because you have experienced as yourself you're really changing body chemistry and very quickly. I mean we're talking alkalining your blood to a certain degree within twenty thirty seconds. And as that happens, it

has incredible impact. But for some people that impact can be quite stressful. It can be quite anxiety making and it feels like they're out of control. And that's a brilliant place to be if you're okay to go there, But if you're not, then it's it can be shocking. So you just referenced how powerful breathwork can be and how it can happen quickly. And you and I sort of started wandering into this territory before the show, and we paused so we could do it here, and so

let's wander in there now. My question to you is this, So you did I think you called it Days of Breathing, which went on a long time, where like all you did was you immersed yourself deeply in breathwork, right, and it has this very transformative effect, right, And you then talk about breath work very glowingly and meditation people go on, you know, month long retreats and then they talk about

meditation very glowingly. I'm right. My question is this because I've been thinking about this a lot lately, is that I think for a lot of people, what ends up happening is they're not in a position where they can do days of breathing. They're going to do fifteen or twenty minutes a day of breathing. They're going to do fifteen or twenty minutes a day of meditation. And this has happened to me over the years as well at

different points. So I do that, and I have an experience that is fairly mundane, and I hear these other people talking about this stuff as if it is completely life changing, and I go, well, jeez, I did it, you know, yesterday and today, and it's not life changing. They're saying it is either a I'm doing it wrong, or be it's not the right thing for me. I've started to worry about this is meditation in our culture. I think we have way over sold the benefits of mindfulness.

I think mindfulness is hugely beneficial, don't get me wrong. It's foundational to all the healing that's happened in my life. Yet I think sometimes we oversell it. And as I was reading your book, I was thinking about a couple of things because You're actually pretty good at talking about this in the book about saying like, hey, the first few times you do this, you may not have a lot happen. You may need to stick with this a little bit. But just respond to kind of that whole

long question slash non question. Yeah, I mean that's a huge question. I think where I would go with this is I'm someone who started in some form of self work yoga breathing from quite young, probably about sort of fourteen and fifteen. I know because my mom was doing it. She was doing pilates. I thought it looked strange, and I was laughing at her, and she's like, try it, and she was doing roll lots with her feet under the bed and stuff. And I was laughing my head

off as I was doing this. Nothing roll onto Like eighteen, did my first yoga class really hated it? Nothing come on to? Like twenty two did another yoga class hurt my wrists, hurt my neck? Hey to it? And so this kind of went on and on and on. And what I would say about it is I believe there is an element of finding it, experiencing what you need to experience when you're ready. And so if something's feeling mundane, then let it be mundane, Like, how are you eric

with the mundane? Do you need a lot of excitement in your life? Do you need big breakthroughs for you to continue doing something or would you be okay cleaning a toilet and getting it spick and span and just feeling absolutely rewarded from connecting with something and making a space that someone else and everyone else can enjoy. And my point being that when it comes to any practice, find the one that you enjoy. I think that's really important.

If you're not enjoying it, I wouldn't say stop, pause, find something that you could enjoy. And from my own perspective, and I talked about this in the book a little bit, but I'm also writing another book. From a body leads psychotherapy point of view, I would say, and I'm aware practitioners may try and shoot me down, and so I'm open to bring it on. But you can look at someone's physicality and I feel I would be able to say, yeah, you know what, the mindfulness is going to be boring

for you. Your system needs something a bit more intense. Go and do whim hoff that is going to attract your attention, calm that very spinning mind of yours, and suddenly you will find that place. From there you will be able to work towards the more subtle forms of meditation. And then there's another system that I would look at and I'm like, wow, okay, a lot of startle in here. If they went into a whim Hoff session, they would

be distraught. I have not experienced it within a large group, but I imagine people might leave the room, not come back after lunch all of If that's you, then it don't worry. Your system is just too sensitive. Go to the more subtle, Go to the mundane, as Eric described, because your system can handle that, and within that is

the richness for you. And then from there you can build and what we call build your container, sort of toughen it up, and through physical gentle work you can get more fierce, stronger until you can handle the really

intense stuff. So if something happens, particularly I know in breath work and Kundalini in particular, I don't know if you've experienced Kundalini, you get people talking about having Kundalini psychosis, and it really is just that their system has exploded somewhere within the energetic structure, and we sort of need to plug that come back in again. Calm it down. You went too quickly for yourself. I don't know if

that explains the question. But we're all different, so we all need different things, and so many things you said there, I think the last being really important. We're all different, we need different things. I beat my head against the wall of breath meditation unsuccessfully for a long time, pre internet, just basic following your breath, you know, like basic I did. But it was interesting because if you go back we're talking eighties nineties, right, there's no internet, there aren't teachers

on every corner, there's nowhere to go. And I'm drawn to certain Buddhist thinkers the way that they think and they explain I'm like, yes, yes, yes, Like finally I found a philosophical system that resonates with me. And they're saying, sit quietly and do this type of meditation for thirty minutes. And so I try years of of on again, off again, on again, off again. And there were several things that

helped me break through that. One was starting really small, just being like, all right, I'm gonna do way less of it. But the other was that I discovered sound meditation. I discovered that what I would do instead is just listen, and I would go outside and my object just became sound,

and all of a sudden it changed. And then to your point, as I developed some concentration that way, then as I went back into breath meditation, I went, Okay, I'm getting a little bit more traction here because I was able to develop concentration in a way that was more suitable for me, you know. And so I think had I tried to learn all this in today's day and age, I probably would have come across that a lot more quickly. It just was a different time when

I was trying to learn this stuff. In Yeah, I think that's something that I hear a lot. I remember going to a psychotherapeutic community in Holland that's where I trained, and when I first arrived, I was like two, was like, and I was young in the community, and I could see people who were in the sixties and sixty we were chatting and they're like, I wish that I had found this when I was twenty six, because my whole life would have been different. And I was like, I

just felt so grateful at the time. Roll On a few years and maybe let's felt a little bit smug about it. Oh yes, I'll developed an eye to be

here at twenty six. But then suddenly eighteen year olds were turning up and I was like, oh my goodness, and I found myself stopping almost saying to them, you know, I wish I found this when I was your right, And it's like, you know what, it's not about wishing anything different to what I have been doing, trusting, And I think for those people that had to really do the research and turn up at that club on fifty Street and really put the effort in, there was beauty

in that and you found it when you found it. And for those that are sort of speeding through it at the moment, it's amazing what's possible. But also maybe you might miss a little bit of that effort and finding you know, things are a bit difficult, and you've got to claim it for yourself. There's something there. Yeah, you know, some of us who were around way before,

you know, as old people. You know, I often think about like, if you wanted to hear us long, you had to go to the record store, and often they wouldn't even have the record. Because I was always into, you know, odd music, and so I'd go to the record store and they'd be like, well, we can order

it and it can be here in four weeks. And so when I started realizing, like the first time, I don't know whether it was Spotify or Napster or whatever it was, when I was like, wait a minute, I can listen to nearly any song in the world like that, I was like, this is the greatest thing that ever happened. And I still generally feel that way. But there was something to the effort, the anticipation, and the slowness with

which you would engage in that piece of work. As you describe it, I'm like, you know what I think the word is as patients. Yeah, it's something that has to be learned, and there's many ways of learning it, and one is going to record store and needing to wait four weeks for your record. In today's standards, that would not work. They would be uproar. Someone would go to another provider and they would want it within twenty four hours. And you know, if that's you as a

post and it's like, oh, that sounds juicy to walk on. Yeah, Well, I do think it is interesting to think about if we all sort of collectively agree, which I think most thoughtful people do collectively agree, like, all right, things are happening altogether too fast, right, There's too much coming at us, There's too much information coming in. I do think a question that we all have to ask ourselves is what ways and in what places are we going to choose to slow that flow down a little bit so that

we are able to engage more deeply with things. So the benefit of today's world is I don't think somebody would spend fifteen years trying the wrong type of meditation for them because you'd be like, well, there's fifty different practice. You know, I can contact twenty different teachers in two minutes, so I'm not going to just keep doing that. So

that's the positive of where we sit today. The negative is and I think we see it, and I contribute it to it by making a podcast like this is a new idea every day, a new practice every day. It's interesting because I really like the way you said, if you're not enjoying the practice, don't stop, but pause and think a little bit about it. And I really like that because there is a certain point with practice where practice becomes practice, like you have to show up.

None of us want to show up all the time for anything, at least no one who's wired like me. And so there is a certain point where we go, Okay, I want to keep with this because I know there's depth here. I recently went through this with my Zen practice, and I was like, Okay, I've been very deep in this Zen practice. I've been doing Coen work for a while, and I'm at a point where it feels very dry

to me, and I feel really interested over here. Like I really called over here, and I have a spiritual director and we talked, you know about it, like, and he was like, I think this is just the dry period, the desert. You've got to go through it. And that's not what I chose to do. I chose to ignore my spiritual director's advice because I have a long standing general feeling, which is trust to my curiosity, trust my enthusiasms. When I started then, I said I'm going to commit

for X amount of time knowing my tendency. And I was way way past that original commitment, and so I went, I'm gonna trust my curiosity this time. But I think that's an ongoing question for all of us as we do this type of work is where do we dig in deeper where we are and where do we explore more widely? How do you think about that in your own life? For me, it's where there's discomfort, discomfort in my body, then I'm to explore it rather than say

ignore it. And if there's discomfort in a conversation, if I find myself triggered old behaviors coming through, you know, I've had a lot of psychotherapy, so I feel very fortunate to know what they are. It doesn't necessarily help my partner or my friends and family, but at the thing time I can spot it relatively quickly. That to me is where there's interests and there's little bit of juice to explore, so that I would take to my

therapist or taken to a practice, a self practice. Listening to you, the word that came to mind was impulse, like follow your impulse. I think that's really important, and in there there's an ability to gain confidence of self, you know, working out what you need to do. And also there is a place where I remember doing a passionate I don't know if you've done those. It's like an eleven day silent retreat and loved it for the first three days, Day four and five, hated it, wanted

to leave, and a sort of confusing one. I knew I wasn't going to go, but I allow myself to think how nice would be just to get in my car and drive away. And that's where I was like, Wow, here is now the work begins. Yes, the welcome it was stunning. You have to get to that point. And you talk of the desert, and the desert can seem so lacking in any signposts or anything. So for me, I find maybe the intensity is a bit easier to work with. That's the discomfort, I guess little discomfort in

the desert. Beyond boredom, there's discomfort there as well. It just takes a bit longer to go through. I've talked about this before that my most prominent situation in life is a I've talked about depression, and my depression for me, when it feels like it's around, is mostly a complete barren nous. It's not a sadness. I can work with sadness. I can work with anger. There's lots of things like

I feel like I've got some skills. Working with nothing is harder and I think that's kind of what you were just saying, right, how do you engage with that sort of complete disconnection or empty it's a numbness? Yeah, So I mean with clients. There are clients that I'm working with right now. They're in that place, and what I say to them is to make friends with it.

I think it's kind of almost a cop out to say that, But what I mean by and make friends with it is within that numbness as a protection, and there's something that your consciousness doesn't feel as ready or it's blocking it in some way. So finding peace with that is a very beautiful key to open that door. For as long as you're judging it, then that is the bind that is holding you back from the numbness. Whereas if you're just like, okay, I'm numb, and rather

than be like, damn it, I'm numb. I don't know what do I need to do? Really, that is the same trauma that created the numbness. The gentleness I like your affirmation of I will do this for this period of time, day with the numbness, for five days, ten days, a year, whatever it is you decide, stay with it, and then afterwards explore something different. Yeah, befriending one thing. I know, well, all right, not turn this into a personal therapy session in any way, But these are the

sort of questions that that I think lots of listeners have. Also. One of the things with my depression is I've alternated between two views with it, and one view is sort of similar to what you said. I just sort of welcome it and I go, you know what, it feels like it rolled into town. I don't know why there's nothing here. The analogy I've often made is it feels like an emotional flu It just feels like I got sick. I don't know why. I check. Am I taking care

of myself? Am I doing all the things I know how to do? And you know what, I'm not going to make a big fuss out of this, And a few days later it kind of just rolls out of town, which it does. So that's one approach that has served

me pretty well. The other view, though, is more the view of what you just said, which is, is there something that unwilling to feel that is causing this to recur and come back, and so should I be digging into it in some way versus just sort of like, you know what, relax, let it come, let it go, okay. So I think the question I would ask is where is your liveness blocked when it happens? Where is it that life is restricted restraints? And perhaps it's with relationships.

Perhaps it's with food, either we withhold from it or use it too much. Maybe it's with substance use. And I think it's knowing the parts of you that are compensating spotting them. You may need someone to help you spot them if you haven't spotted them already, And it's always helpful to speak to someone because yes, you may know the two or three, but there might be another one that's there and you just didn't know that it was an issue. If there is a compensation, that's where

I would dig. Whereas the numbness itself, I don't know that finding peace with it is in my experience, more healing because you don't judge it and suddenly you're like, ah, it's just how it is. I love your sort of rolling in and roll out again. So it's almost like, let it roll in, let it roll out. But during that time, how are you compensating? And it would be within those compensations that I would unpick with someone and it's like, oh, you're pulling at your hair at the moment.

For the rest of the session today, let's not pull your hair. See what happens, and you'll see the hand go to the hair like some people pull their eyebrow, for example, and you'll see the hand going and they're like, oh my god, it's happening. For then that opens up what it is that the numbness might be there to protect something. You said, they're triggered a question that I wanted to ask you about breath work, but you led

me into it, which is a question about breathing. In the book, you start off with some tests ways of testing how well you're breathing, and I've done versions of those tests. They all make sense to me. Here's the question, though, that arose for me as I looked at those and as I think about breathing, as I thought about breathing more broadly, when I think about breathing, I know how to do it correctly. You know, I've done enough of these interviews. I've done enough. I mean, I know how

to breathe correctly. When I think of it. It's the thinking of it, it's the being conscious of it, And I think that this is a problem far more fundamental than breathing. I think this is a fundamental problem that most of us face, which is that we know a lot of the ways to respond wisely and skillfully to life. We might have practices, we might have tools, We've got a lot of things. It's just that the pace of life and the dizziness of life makes it very difficult

for us to remember to check how my breathing. And I'm curious if you have any thoughts on how, in the midst of a busy life to touch base more often, like, Okay, how I am I breathing? You know, because the twenty minutes that I practice breathing is great, it's good. It's certainly better than doing nothing. But then there's still twenty three hours and forty minutes that I'm breathing in whatever

my habitual pattern is. Okay, so listen. I think that is the beauty of breathwork over perhaps almost any modality. You are breathing all the time, You sure are, and your body has been breathing from since not only the moment you were born, but in essence. The fetus has something called breathing movements that practices breathing movements in the womb, and it's aspirate the fluid in the womb and then sort of pushing it out again, and that's preparing the lungs.

So this sort of mechanism is is expanding and contracting, so this thing is going all the time. So the first thing I would say is, and I talked about it in the book, many people think, oh, I don't know breaths than me, and I sort of smile a little bit because I'm like, oh, did you know you're breathing? So you think breathing or breath work isn't kind of important to doing it, And you're doing it because you are yawning, sighing, you're holding your breath during a stressful moment,

you're hyper ventilating during exercise. You're already doing it. So the first thing I would say is, rather than worry about connecting with breath every decond of every moment, that comes with time, and that comes into that days of breath where you've chosen seven days, ten days a year of just sort of solid breathing. That's what I want

to do myself. At the moment we were speaking at the beginning I'm a little bit out of sync with breathing and with self care because I'm doing a very sort of human project of renovating my house and it's very difficult. It's dusty, my body doesn't like breathing in it, and wearing face masks a lot. So for me, rather than sort of do the breath work, I've just sort

of let it go. And I find myself in the middle of the night waking up, spinning mind and I'm back into some very interesting stress, very interesting in a voice that I have not heard in a really long time, and it's painful and it's traumatic what's happening in the morning. I'm like, I know better than this. I know what to do to calm those voices, to come back to myself.

Why am I not doing it? I'm just so grateful for this period of time because I feel more compassion and more sort of like understanding when someone says but I don't know, how do I sort of come into that breath when I need it, And it's kind of like relax into it. You'll know when you need it, and you'll practice it when you can. And at the same time, for myself, when I wake up at three in the morning and my mind is spinning. Then I

guess it's a sort of familiar sensation. I'm there again, it's happened, and I will take a breath exhale and there's a breath in the book that's really good for sleep. I will begin it and suddenly I'm like, oh, thank goodness for that. And then suddenly, without knowing it, mind spinning, spinning, spinning, and I'm like, I guess it's just noticing the sensation that is the discomfort. I'm like, oh, my goodness, I'm tensing my stomach. Let it go. I've forgotten to breathe again.

It's knowing your body, knowing what it feels like when that darkness hits. Yeah, you said that earlier, noticing discomfort and going into it. I think in this program I teach called spiritual Habits, the question I'm trying to answer is the one I just sort of posed a little bit, which is like, how do we bring this into more of the moments of our lives? And like you just said, I feel like the most powerful trigger we can have

triggers like remind me, like my phone reminds me. But if my own internal discomfort can start to become a trigger in internal family systems. I think they call it a trailhead. If I can use that to sort of catch my attention and go, oh wait, now I can do something with this. You know, it's sort of an awareness based trigger, which we all have mostly for the negative. Right, We're not aware, right, we have the emotional trigger. There's

no awareness to it though. It's just it's like emotion and response, and it's happening at almost if it's a subconscious level, but it's happening outside of like we're not really aware it's happening. And so I think, to your point, the more we can sort of recognize like oh, okay, yep, tension, discomfort, suffering, racing mind like okay, it's a chance to practice. It's

a chance to practice. And I think the wonder of it, and I've really noticed over these last seven months, is that I've lost a lot of that electric connect the sort of neuro connections that I had developed that was so helpful for me just to feel incredible all the time, and slowly losing them because I wasn't practicing it. It It made me realize the importance of practice and the importance of giving some time each day. So I'm very aware that I'm like, oh, you know, you'll find it when

when you're ready for it, etcetera. Um, there is a place to practice and develop the tools that you will need, and it will just happen. So I really noticed it when I first started pilates. I had a lot of neck and shoulder issues, and my polates teacher put their hands on my shoulders and just said breathe, and I found my shoulders lifting their hand up and they just kept holding it, and suddenly my shoulders dropped. And actually, although it felt very nice, it was unremarkable. And I'm

making it sound better than it was. It was unremarkable. Where it was remarkable is I then answered my phone and I realized my shoulder has lifted and it dropped mid while I was on the phone, and I just burst into tears. I was like, oh, my goodness, there's so much reaction and I just didn't know that it was happening. So finding the signs, you know, this is why we do need others to help us. Yeah, others are so helpful. I just did some Alexander technique lessons.

It's just something I've been curious about and heard about for years, and I thought, well, I wonder if there's anybody in Columbus doing it, and sure enough there was

a guy. And I don't know that it's the thing for me, but I was really struck by the core idea of habits of motion, these habitual ways in which we move that we are completely aware of, and like we talk about a lot in mindfulness or you know, bringing some awareness to the habits of the thought patterns, it's really about bringing awareness to the way the body habitually moves. They've got a phrase for it that I'm missing that says it better than that, but that was

the essence of what I took from it. I love. Alexander technique was one of the first practices that I really connected with when I was in a lot of pain, and I didn't understand it in the beginning. It was up and down, up and down, held my neck up and down, up and down. And if there's anyone that practices Alexander technique and going, oh my goodness, this guy's not selling it. That's what my practitioner did with me. I was so boring and I sort of hated it.

What was interesting is week three or four, suddenly was like, oh my goodness, I am fighting this guy in the same movements I thought, don't fight him, and suddenly things were muscles were dropping and releasing, and I was like, wow, I fight. I really have so much fight in me. Yeah,

it's a beautiful practice. Something else I was struck by in your book because of its absolute absence in most other places, which has consistently surprised me because it's sort of an old school technique that I have always found helpful but seems to have not made it into the modern mindfulness breathwork world very much. Is this clenching of muscle and relaxing of ussel. You have a lot of that,

and I've always found that for myself. I think they used to call it progressive muscle relaxation, but I've always found that to be a really helpful technique. Talk to me about why that seems to be a fairly core part of a lot of these exercises. Okay, so it is not a core part in the work I do

one to one or in group sessions. It is a core part if I don't know someone and I want to support them to a feel their body and be for their muscles just to get a rough idea of what is possible for them, whether that be tension because the muscles are completely chilled out and not engaging, or tightness because they're walking around like a not the contraction

of everything. Since I wrote this book and I am not going to get the opportunity to meet every person that's reading this book, it's just such an incredibly effective and easy way of someone feeling their body noticing where they are today because it's different depending on the day, and it's safe compared to other practices that I might do with someone. So we have groups free Wednesday online, but also we have live groups. In those sessions I

don't do necessarily. I do other things, things that feel a little bit more embarrassing, and that if I wrote it in the book, people would be like, I'm out of here, and they would close the book and never continue. There's a sort of warm up process and that and then letting it go. Everyone gets it, and no one, as far as I'm concerned, it feels concerned by doing it. I think I would be a negligent interviewer if I did not weighe into what's embarrassing. Every listener is like

what is it? So now I have to ask the question when you say things that are more embarrassing, give me an example or two. Shaking. Yes, interestingly, I do put it in the book you do, but again I sort of talk about it as as exercise. So it's shaking and shakes hard as you can until your breath

starts s getting labored. And what that is doing. It's a very subtle way of a releasing tension, be improving circulation in your whole body, because we just know that we're going to be a little bit lacking in that full body blood flow and oxygenated cells. And people aren't moving enough, not walking enough, not dancing enough, whatever is, they're not doing enough have a good shape for three minutes,

and that would be embarrassing. Another one might be a fast breath practice where you would like So my partner came to when we met, I told him that I ran a breath group, and he's like, what does a breath group? And I was like, come along and have

a go. And anyway, I had done enough breath groups to really not worry about looking at his face as he was practicing, but you could see scrunching up and turning around and sort of he just wanted to leave, and after he had the bravery to say I didn't like it, And I thought, why didn't you like it? What didn't you like about it? And he's like, everyone sounded like trains and I couldn't get out of the sound of it. And he was like, it was just Yeah,

I got stuck on that. If I wrote that in the book and people beginner, if that is embarrassing for them, then they'll stop it and then that breath is lost on them. But there's some beautiful things you can do that. Yeah, that fast breathing practice is one that I find. I don't know that the word I would use is embarrassing, but I am more hesitant to do it in my house and my partners totally on board with all this kind of stuff, And I don't know why. There's something

about it. Maybe it's just the noise that it causes. It's a noisier practice than say a four seven eight type thing, so it causes a hesitation. Yeah. So without turning this into a session, and this goes for myself as well, where do I make myself small? Where do I hide myself or put someone else's experience above my own then that would be an interesting question. So I'm always saying to people in my classes. I was like, oh, and this, so I do body tapping. So that's another

one that some people find very embarrassing. We had one person walk out in the middle of the body tap. I really wanted to go up to them and just be like, please just hold my hand a moment. I'm not going to body tap with you. Sam, please come and leave the class body tap. I didn't because everyone it was a big, sort of high energy body tap class, and I thought, you know what, just let that person go because I think they'll find this in their own time.

But as I'm doing this, I'm always planting the seed and everyone when you're on the bus, body tap, when you're in Walmart, over here at with Tescos or Sainsbury's, body tap, move, shake at the milk. I'll just do it. If you feel that tension, just take a moment, jake and check, check and check and check. Breathe. Everyone's gonna stare,

everyone's gonna look, and you are healing the world. But because you're just opening, when they see that next when they go to a class, that's what that widow was doing. We just lost of our listeners. They're like, goodbye, I am not shaking your body tapping at Walmart. Fella. If you just if you logged off already, you would definitely want to go into that discomfort. Let's talk about a practice or two specifically, and I was wondering if you

would share with us geometric breathing. Beautiful choice. Well, it's beautifully drawn out in the book. Those are very lovely pages in the book tell us about geometric breathing. So geometric breathing, I've trademarked that interestingly because when I when I started creating it, I was like, oh my gosh, this could be huge. And not that I believe any breath work should be owned by anyone, but just the sort of name it and what it's about, I just

think it's beautiful. So sorry to blow my own trumpet there, But anyway, what is basically about shapes? In looking at a shape and breathing it so easy one would be a triangle, what everyone knows, a square breath or box breathing inhale for four, hold for four, exhale for four, hold the breath out for four. So there was this very clear geometric shape, and then a triangle inhale, hold exhale. So I was doing this and I really loved these sort of shaped breaths. And then within my days of breath.

We're probably gonna lose more listeners here, But basically what started happening was my mind. It became visual rather than breath, and I just saw this black line into the distance as I inhaled, and then it kinked when I held my breath, and then it kinked when I exhaled, and I was like, all right, so this is box breathing. But then I sort of it zoomed out and it went to the next one, and the square got bigger, and then the square started turning and then shifting and shifting,

and this geometric shape started forming. In my mind, I like a mandala. And I was just blown away by it, and I thought, this is a way of breathing. It's a way of teaching it. So what's beautiful about it is the shape starts very small. It's very easy and practical. Two counts, everyone can and then the next one would be three counts, four counts, and then the shapes as I'll have sort of describe it, but they expand and they stretch across the page and then they disappear off

the page. Basically with the knowledge that some people can take these shapes and keep going with them. And I think that's the beauty of geometric breathing, that you find your level and you can stretch yourself to your absolute boundaries if you would like to. There's no end to this, and you can lose yourself with geometric breathing. I will want to make an app with it, actually, And I

just think this opportunity to breathe even sacred geometry. I mean selling my ideas here, putting them out there, but sort of taking something that has structure and formula and breathing it. It's beautiful. And so if we were to practice it, like you said, we might start with when you say two, you mean breathing for account of two. Yeah,

So this is the thing about breathing. Many of these sort of counted breaths helpful to see them like a ratio, and you'll see people count like one, two, and but people get a bit confused that the breath is seconds um. Seconds can be unhelpful, particularly if you don't have a clock or a stopwatch or anything. And your timing is not right and people like one, two, three, And you see this all the time. If I hand a breath out in a class, everyone's breathing it differently, so you

sort of want to work with that. So account is just a ratio. Basically, do you recommend that you sort of go up, up, up, so you know I'm doing it for a two count of three count of four count of five count which is given it the geometric piece, and then get to like where your highest level is and stay there. Or do you sort of ascend and descend. You can ascend and descend, as I talk about in the book, go to your level that is maximum for you.

If it's uncomfortable, come down one or two levels day within the comfort, but a stretched comfort, rather than going to a place that is hurting you or stressing you out. As soon as your system is stressed with the breath, you've gone too far. The breath wasn't designed. It never wanted to stress you out. You have stressed yourself out because it's just too much for you. So just come

back a level. So there's another breath called the dive, and that is a breath that gets used by free divers and if you are not careful, that is a very painful breath because it seems like a test, a competition with yourself to hold your breath. And the free divers, that's not what they're doing. They're not trying to get to the point where they're like dying all the time. The training is to stretch their limits to a comfortable level.

And then when that happens, your body is like, got it, I'm all right, I'm happy to do this with you. Whereas if you always go to like and you're sort of afterwards, you've just you've blown your fus a little bit and your body was probably not want to do it next time. Yeah, you talk. In the book, there's an exercise in there about as you exercise trying to breathe only through your nose. I try it when I'm writing that, when I'm doing the cycling. It's an interesting

gauge of fitnesses. You know, to what level can I push and still breathe with my mouth? Incredible? What's the benefit of that? What is the benefit of that? So if we start by saying that a physiological design is to breathe through the nose, and I know we can breathe through the mouth. But if you look at the structures around the mouth and the structures around the nose, the mouth is not capable of doing what the nose does. And for that reason, mouth breathing is long term quite

dangerous literally quite dangerous to be doing. If you're in an environment that's very dusty, for example, your opportunity to breathe in particular in some way is magnified a lot basically compared to the nose. So then there is this misconception that if I push myself through exercise that I

have to breathe through my mouth. The reason that you're doing it is because there's a part in your brain called the brain stem right at the back of your neck, and it is reading not oxygen, it's reading carbon dioxide. It's in fact it's reading hydrogen ions. But it basically has carbon dioxide increases hydrogen process the blood barrier, and there's brain stems reading it, and it goes, oh, come on, we need to breathe quicker because carbon dioxide is going

up and that's not good for us. It breathes faster. Now our mouth can breathe much faster, meaning we can get to a more relaxed breathing very quickly. It's a discomfit thing. Again, I'll just breathe through my mouth. But actually, if you force yourself only to breathe through your nose, as they talk about in the book, if you're going to do that in an exercise class, if you go to a hip class and you breathe only through your nose, you're not going to make it. If you haven't practiced

this before, so it always goes just a six. Your hit instructor will probably be very furious that you do it anyway. Um, so go to just go to that edge where you're like and you're just breathing as best you can through your nose. Then what will happen is you'll begin to train your system to handle higher levels of carbon dioxide. That's the first thing. So we can

handle higher levels of carbon dioxide. And interestingly, when that happens, like a chemical change happens in the blood called the bore effect, and your hemoglobe in the red blood cells start dropping oxygen. They don't want it, they want something else, So they're dropping the oxygen, and all the cells in your body that need oxygen and like, thank goodness, and they're sucking up this oxygen. So even though you feel out of breath, it's got nothing to do with oxygen.

Your body is fine. Your body is taking in probably more oxygen breathing this way. Also, your lungs are going to get serious opening because your whole muscular chode is going to have to breath either a lot harder. But the circulation from that, the lymphatic movement from that, we're talking just incredible for your health and your well being. And on top of that, nitric oxide to your nose.

You've got cells in your nose that released nitric oxide and that's really amazing for blood pressure, libido, particularly for men. It's really good for erections, and it's an incredible molecule that they're just really exploring now. I guess it's been around for a while, but that the benefits to our health from this nitric oxide and nose breathing and you don't get it from mouth breathing in the same way is remarkable. The book has so many wonderful breathing exercises

that are very different from each other. Each one has a reason to do it, and you explain the science in them really well. We just got a taste of it there at the end of the interview. We didn't get it earlier, but like I said, I think it's one of the better breath books I've seen out there by a long shot. It's it's really good. So, listeners, I'm going to have Ali leader through a breathing technique

in our post show conversation. If you'd like to get access to post show conversations, to add free episodes to a special episode I do each week where I share one of my favorite poems, one of my favorite songs, and I do a teaching You also get access to that by becoming a member of our community at When you Feed dot net slash Join Ali. Thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed the book. I've enjoyed this conversation UH and getting to know you. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me on. Eric spion role privilege to share breath with you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community. With this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support,

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