Nedra Glover Tawwab on How to Set Boundaries

We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their

good wolf m Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Nedra Glover, tab a New York Times bestselling author, licensed therapist, and sought after relationship expert. Today, Nedre and Eric discuss her book set Boundaries, Find a Piece, a Guide to reclaiming Yourself. Hi Nedra, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I am really excited to have you on. We're going to be discussing your book set Boundaries Find Peace, a guide to reclaiming yourself.

But before we do that, let's start, like we always do, with the parable. In the Parable, there is a grandmother who's talking to their granddaughter and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops. She thinks about it for a second, and she looks up at her grandmother,

and she said, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. That parable represents our human uts. And I think it's so true that we have these different parts of us, and we are constantly trying to manage which one we want to give energy to. So let's start with just defining what boundaries are. How would you define what a boundary is?

I think a lot of us it's a term that most people are probably familiar with at least to some degree. But specifically, how would you define a boundary. I would define a boundary as something that you need to make you feel comfortable in your relationships and in your life. A boundary could be you saying no. It could be making a request. It could be accepting help. It could be you changing something. It could be so many different things.

For many, many years, boundaries were considered only as saying no. This is the boundary saying no. But that's just one small part of a boundary. There's so many other ways to set boundaries. I think about bedtime as a boundary. I think about traffic lights as a boundary. I think about you set the remote to to turn off after sixty minutes. You know, the sleep timer as a boundary. Like, there's so many things that we already do that are boundaries.

And so it's just about thinking about what more do you need? Do you need a boundary with when you start and stop work? Do you need a boundary around own what people can share with you, where the questions they can ask you? But we already have these rules in plays, and it's a matter of thinking about where am I functioning that is causing me some issues. What led you into boundaries being something that you have talked about so much, written so much about, and been so

interested in. Were their personal experiences in your own life that really brought it to mind? Was it work that you did with clients A combination? It was a combination. I didn't know what boundaries were. When I was actually doing boundaries work, I thought I was just big a jerk. I'm like, I think I call this jerk work. I'm not sure, but jerk work, um, you know, telling people know, um, setting limitations, really being clear about what I'm willing to

do and not willing to do. And at the time of me starting to practice boundaries, I received a lot of pushback and I didn't know what to do with that. I'm like, oh my gosh, what is going on? And I went to therapy and the therapist said, no, you're actually doing something very good. But the people around you, they're not used to it, and so there's a lot of pushback because they want something different. They want these

things from you that you're unwilling to give. And these things are not harmful to them, but they are harmful to you because you're here talking about these things. Um So, as I became a therapist, I discovered boundaries, and you know, I said, I wonder if I started to apply some of these concepts to many of the things that people inter therapy, you know, trying to sort through, like anxiety, work, life balance issues, marriage issues, issues with their friends and family.

And I started to apply these concepts of how to be assertive, how to ask for what you'd need, what is your rule here, what is your limitation, what would be hopeful? And how you schedule things, just all of these things, and I came to understand that these things are actually boundaries. Something that you said recently on your Instagram account was you said, I found the areas that I complain about the most are directly tied to the places where I need firmer boundaries. Do you find that

to be a good rule of thumb for people in general? Yes, yes, absolutely. I think so much of my job is telling people how normal they are and how the things that they're trying to minimize as a problem are actually a problem, and that's why they're talking about them. Because you know, people will say, I don't know why I'm talking about this,

I'm like, because it's a problem for you. And we've been trying to think that there are small problems and big problems, and we cannot talk about the small problems, like our male person always being you know, late in coming, you know, maybe after six or something. It's like, this is such a small but it's the thing that we keep talking about. So perhaps playing a call to the post office would help you feel better, because you've been

talking about this for two weeks. So really helping people to figure out this thing that you keep talking about. I wonder where is the boundary, what needs to be done, what part of this can you control or manage? And so often once we do that, once we figure out I am really annoyed when this person invites me to a birthday party and then they show up late. Like, once you figure out all of these things that annoy you and start to figure out ways to have some

resolution in these situations, you do feel better. You say that boundaries are the gateway to healthy relationships and that clarity saves relationships. And I think you know most of us when it comes to setting boundaries and our relationships, we're afraid that the boundaries are going to damage the relationship. But you're saying that it actually saves them. Yeah. I think about marriages, and one of the things that often happens with marriages is you sit on all these problems.

You never set expectations. And on the therapy side, we see couples when they are on fire, at their worst because they've sett on all of these issues and they fear signed to this person, I need help with blank, or can you please do blank, to the point that they are not resentful, they're angry and often ready to

leave the relationship. And many years ago, setting some boundaries, are making some requests would have been extremely helpful and we would not be at this point most often in relationships with people, but we often allow things to go too far, and by the time they reach a certain point where like there's no point because now I am upset about something that happened for five years ago, or I am upset about this person's unwillingness to change because

they've gotten comfortable disrespecting a boundary that they didn't know about, and so now we're asking them to change after they've been able to do something for such a long time. And that's really where people start to get upset because it's the spirit of I've been doing this. It's like you've allowed me to do this for so long. How dare you tell me that I can't do this thing anymore?

And the sooner we placed the boundary, particularly as we're meeting new p both stepping into new situations, it is

so helpful to just start with the boundaries. It's certainly possible to clean up some relationships, but if just starting today, whatever person you meet today tomorrow, just start placing the boundaries right away, whether it's a new job or a new TV and you want to watch less, whatever the thing is, placed the boundaries right away, because it's so much easier to start with the boundary than to go back in some of these older relationships and start saying

I have an issue with this, so this and this and this. In those cases with the older relationships, it is helpful to start at the thing that is annoying you the most, or the thing that you think you would have the most success with doing. Yeah, boy, that rings so true in my own life. I think I've been with my current partner about six years and we are incredibly happy. This comes after or two previous divorces,

So you can tell them a quick learner um. And but one of the things that I think we did in this relationship, and that I have really worked really hard to do, is to say what is going on with me, if there's something I'm unhappy with, or there's something I don't like, or there's something I want to be different or something I want, which is my sort of traditionally my achilles heel. I am not by nature

a good boundary setter. I'm very much like the people you describe in the book who are terrified of it. But for whatever reason, I just with this situation. I was just like enough of that, and we have a wonderful and lovely relationship. And that's not the only reason, but it's certainly something that we both have really been

focused on. And I think it finally occurred to me this time around the insanity of like getting into a relationship with somebody and either doing everything they want you to do to make them like you, or tolerating behavior you don't like to make them like you, because even

if you win that game, you lose, you know. I realized how much I tried to contort myself into being a certain way so this person would like me and want to be with me, and then that would happen and I'd be like, oh boy, what have I done? Now I'm in a relationship where I can't at all be myself, Like what was I trying to accomplish here?

This doesn't make any sense. Yeah. I remember once I dated someone and I thought, this person cannot see me using profanity, and probably for a year or two of dating, like I just withhild my very strong desire to let out certain words, like I was like, no, no, no, it's not lady like, and it just, oh my gosh,

I was just like huh. And so I got out that relationship and now I'm able to like a saying and it no. But it feels really good just being able to be yourself because to withhold a part of you, I don't want to say it's a huge part, but to me, it's expressive and sometimes it's just fun to throw in a f bomb, to tell a story like it just makes it a little more fun, right, And to force myself to withhold that because this person thought,

oh my gosh, that's uh. It's like wow, that would be terrible to try to commit to for an entire lifetime,

to be something that you are not. And I think we, you know, we we do it because sometimes the other person, you know, says, this is this is what I like, this is what I don't like, and you're trying to, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna honor your boundary and dishonor my core self but all right, and it just it hurts you, It really hurts you in the and to betray yourself in ways that you know don't feel good, and that could be with anything, that could be you know, biding

your tongue about you know, how willing you are to participate in family activities, or you know, all sorts of things that we do not say that really deteriorate the relationship. Yeah, and then of course, as we all know, those things

end up often coming out sideways. Yes, absolutely, So just beg yourself from the beginning, and of course honoring someone else's boundary, but being yourself even and honoring it because there are certain things that we just can't suppress and there are certain things that we need to be who we are. So I want to move into some more tactical stuff around how we set boundaries, what situations to do it in. But I'm going to start by talking about you describe three levels of boundary. So can you

walk us through what the three levels of boundaries are? Yes, So the three types of boundaries are porous and porous boundaries is when we are passive about our boundaries. We're not letting the other person know that we have a difference of opinion. We disagree with what is happening. We feel uncomfortable, but we do feel it. We are aware that something is off here, but we're so afraid to express it. And then we have rigid which is we

have so many boundaries. We have boundaries about everything. We have boundaries so much so that we have built walls to keep people out. We don't have any flexibility. We don't allow anything to penetrate those boundaries. There are no exceptions. And then we have healthy boundaries where there is some flexibilities because all rules don't apply to all things. Sometimes

we want to change our boundaries. Sometimes we want to explore new boundaries um and so those things should be done in relationships in a very healthy way of saying I want, I need, I expect, and over time those needs may shift. You know, our needs in the pandemic may be different than our needs outside of a pandemic, our needs, and you know, one relationship may be different in another relationship. Surely our relationships with all coworkers are

not the same. And so your boundaries are really a reflection of what's needed based on the situation and not necessarily um overall thing unless it's just you know, a general rule of I don't like when people yell at me or you know, like those sort of things. But we can change our boundaries to fit the situation. Yeah.

I really like that because one of my questions is I started the book and have often thought about when I thought about boundaries is sort of you use the word in there, you know, what when is it a boundary? And when is it a wall? Do boundaries lead to walls? And and so I loved the way you sort of said, well they can. You know, if your boundary is too rigid, yeah, it becomes like a wall. You know, if it's too poorous, that's not good either. But that we want these healthy boundaries.

And I like that you stress over and over that that's going to look a little bit different for everybody. You know, the boundary that you need to set with who you need to set it with and what it needs to look like is going to look very different from person to person, and so thinking that there are hard and fast, you know, boundaries we should all set is misleading. We have to know ourselves. You know, what works for us is not what works for someone else. Yeah,

I get the question a lot. People will tell me a situation and they'll say, what boundary should I have? And I'm like, I don't know because the boundary is so personal. Well, I'm I feel comfortable doing is not what you would feel comfortable doing. So it really is based on your comfort level and not based on some general rule of thumb. Now there is, of course, things that are not actually boundaries. Their rules are trying to control other I mean not rules, but they're trying to

control other people. They're cutting people off, they're doing all of these other things. But just in general, your boundary is so personal that I can't set them for you. And the book is so full of examples of what boundaries could be, but you have to apply it to your personal situation to see even if those examples will fit. Probably, in order to set good boundaries, we have to be clear on kind of what our underlying values are. I mentioned with you in our pre show conversation about how

my mom today was in a car accident. I had to go take care of her. And one of the things that my partner I are navigating at this stage of our life is caregiving for elderly parents. Her mom has dementia, my dad has Alzheimer's, my mom is not well in a variety of different ways, and so we've been in this constant process of trying to navigate how much do we do for them, you know, And there's a desire for someone else to tell me that's enough,

that's enough, or that's too much. And I've just realized that's not how it works. It's us looking at our values and how certain things weigh on us and where on us, and taking all that into consideration and trying to spawned as wisely as we can in the moment, and recognizing also that that changes, you know, that that the boundary we might have set a month ago might be different, you know, a month later, the situation changes,

We change. I mean, there's so many things that go on, and it would be nice for you know, you to be able to tell me what my boundaries would be. I guess maybe it wouldn't be, but sometimes it feels like it would be nice to have someone tell us. But I've discovered this is really deep work, sort of really looking at what what matters to us. Yeah, because you use a beautiful example there. I think even with caring for your parents, people have different financial resources, and

so that would play into what you're able to do. Perhaps, if you don't have a a vast amount of financial resources, your support maybe more verbal or you know, helping your parents accumulate resources. If you can contribute in a financial way, it may be more financial in terms of securing things for your parents. And so it's very hard to have a one size fits all approach to something that is

so personal. One thing, though, that does seem to be while we're not going to say set rules across the board, one thing that you do normalize is that if we need to start setting boundaries with people, it is very often and for very many people, an uncomfortable process. I think that's really good for people to hear you say somewhere that you know there's no necessarily guilt free. You know that guilt can be part of the process too,

and that doesn't mean it's bad. Yeah, a huge part of setting the boundary is learning to deal with our discomfort. And sometimes that discomfort is guilt. Sometimes it's remorse, sadness, anger, that a person would get it before you had to tell them. I mean, all sorts of things that we might feel. And it is a part of the process to deal with all of that discomfort and steal place

the boundary. So let's talk about a couple of those words use there, because remorse sounds to me like would I do something if it's going to make me remorseful? So what's the situation where setting a boundary might make me remorseful? When you catch one of the other person's reaction and it's something that you feel like, man, I want to take it back. I don't want to. I

wish I could undo the boundary. You know. I think of breakups, and you know, a boundary could come across as as breaking up with someone, ending a relationship, a divorce, uh, you know, a cut off, any of these things, and those are really uncomfortable boundaries to set with people. And then I think about, what is this What if this is the healthiest thing for them to do. I know that it hurts the other person, but what if this is the healthiest thing that this person could think of

to do for themselves. And sometimes people do have remorse when you know you you end a relationship and someone is sad and they're crying and they're upset, and it's like, oh my gosh, like what did I do? Like you don't want that, but you also don't want to be in the relationship. It can be really uncomfortable. But I think sometimes it is still in our best interests to

set the boundary. Before we move into how to set a boundary, you say that there are four ways to unsuccessfully communicate a boundary, So let's talk about before we move into how to do this right. What are some of the ways that we often do this wrong. We ignore that a boundary needs to be set, which what I would identify that as being passive. Sometimes we go a little too hard with setting the boundary. We go aggressive.

Sometimes we manipulate people to get what we want. And the most common in healthy way is being passive aggressive. We don't directly tell a person what we want, We just acted out in our behaviors, or we don't um say anything at all. We just really live in that resentment and we never set the boundary with them. The healthiest way for us to show up is just to be assertive. And this is a really hard part because boundaries do sometimes hurt people. I just talked about breakups, divorce,

cut offs. Boundaries do hurt people sometimes, and I get that it's really hard to to set them in those instances. But there are so many times where we are afraid to set a boundary and it's not hurting anyone. It's saying to someone, can you please take your shoes off when you come in? Hey, I'm gonna have my lunch right now. Can we talk about this when I'm back at work. You know, just all of these boundaries that really don't hurt people that we're afraid to set. I

can't I can't tell them, I can't talk right now. Well, you know, you want to have your lunch and watch your show on Netflix, Like that's also important, And so I think it is really important to think about how this boundary might be received. But what's more important is to figure out just how to say it and not focusing so much on the damage or the what ifs this happened or how the person will perceive it, because

we don't know. Yeah, I feel like I was raised in and then through a lot of years of practice all four of those wrong ways to do it. I leaned towards passive, passive, aggressive, or manipulation like you mentioned, like if I want to eat my lunch and watch my TV show, I'm not going to say that. I'll just look at my computer fifty five times when you're trying to talk to me instead of just you know, like I'm hoping you'll figure it out, or I'll just be a little bit grumpy and if I'm grumpy, then

maybe you'll you'll get the message. You know. As I was reading your book, I just was like looking back at my family of origin, and you know, again, so much of my early life the way I just you know, it was so passive, aggressive in so many different ways, or manipulative, you know, which I wouldn't have thought of myself as manipulative, but that's often what it is, you know, because I'm trying to get somebody to do a certain

thing without actually saying the words. Yeah. I mean, I think so many of us want people to just figure it out. I do too. I'm just like, let me give them like fifty seven chances to just try to get this. It's like, don't you see? But I've learned the hard way that people do not see what I see because they don't have my eyes. They don't have the same goals or desires as me. And things are not common sense. They are things that I know, and other people may need to be taught because these are

things very unique to me. And we just think these things are just general rules of thumb. They should know, they know, and it's like they don't know. That's why they keep doing this. Um if they thought differently, they would be doing something different. And so it is our job to let people know how to show up in relationship with us. So you say that to successfully communicate a boundary, be assertive and follow these three easy you say, well,

maybe not so easy, but doable steps. You know, in addition to sort of being assertive, what are the three steps that we want to follow through with here? I think step number one would be being clear and concise. Sometimes we uh say a lot, but we don't set a boundary, will tell people what the problem is, and we expect them to figure out what the boundary is. And it's really about us being clear about what the boundary is. This is what I want, This is what

I need, this is what I expect. Step two is, paulse what do you have there? Because I'm writing a workbook and I think I rewrote that. What do you have a step to directly state your need to request or say no? What will? Step one? Step one was be clear, do your best to be as straightforward as possible. Look what I'm doing the boundaries workbook. I am I've rewritten a little bit. Okay, you don't have to go off of what's in my book, though, because you can

go off of whatever you think is best. So however you want to take this, I'll let you take it. Step two being direct, really getting to the core of what it is. And step three dealing with your discomfort, if you have any guilt, if you have any remorse sadness. Is so important that you address that and that you figure out whether you need to talk to a therapist, talk to a friend, really lean into your self care practices.

But it's so important after you do the hard work of setting the boundary, that you really take care of yourself. I found the quote exactly, which is the question I'm us most often is how do I set boundaries? Without feeling guilty. There is no such thing as guilt free boundaries. And I'm gonna read the next couple of sentences because I think they're really good. Guilt is in a limitation to setting boundaries. It's a feeling, and like all feelings, guilt will come and go. Try not to treat your

guilt like the worst thing ever. Instead, embrace it as part of a complicated process, just one piece, not the entirety of the experience. Over Focusing on emotions just prolongs them. You can carry on while feeling guilty. So I think again, it's really important to normalize, Like, just because you feel bad doesn't mean it's not right to set the boundary. How do we sort out Obviously we want to do this before we set the boundary, but how do we

sort out? Because as we start to think about setting a boundary and we go, okay, well, she's if I say that I'm gonna feel really guilty or am I going to feel remorseful? I don't know if I should do that, you know, because I'm reflecting a lot of my myself here, But that certainly was my thing was I would think onto that process and I'd be like I'm just gonna feel terrible if I do that, and

so then I would choose not to do it. And sometimes this tendency to think ahead and go, well, if I do that, I'll feel bad is a useful skill, right like, well, if I eat three quarts of ice cream after dinner, I'm probably gonna feel bad, so I choose not to do it. It's a useful faculty to think ahead and go if I do that, I'll feel bad. But it can trip us up in this case. So what are some ways of thinking through whether the boundary should be said or not, even if we're uncomfortable with

doing it. How much trouble is it causing you not to have the boundary? How are you suffering without the boundary? I think sometimes we are in situations and there's really no way around the boundary. There's no way for us to have peace in a situation without setting the boundary, and that's when we just have to set it, even

through the discomfort or the fear of what ifs. I found that when people do the really hard work of stating with the bound three years, they actually feel a lot of relief because they've done this really hard thing that they've probably been thinking about for days or weeks or months or years. And yes, it's it's uncomfortable to do it, but it feels good to get it out. I've certainly set some boundaries that made my stomach hert. I was like, oh, I can't believe I said that,

but who I'm so happy I said it. It just feels good to get it out, because sitting with it can be much worse than letting it out. I had this revelation years ago, which was as a conflict avoidant person, I would find myself saying, I'm not doing that. I'm not going to say that thing. I'm not going to do that thing in order to sort of and the phrase in my mind was keep the peace. And what I realized was that I wasn't keeping the peace. I was just shoving all the conflict kind of inside me.

You know, maybe externally it seemed peaceful, but it wasn't because I was just carrying it all. And so to your point about what is it costing me if I don't set this boundary that that was a really big one for me to realize, like, this isn't working. Absolutely it isn't working. And once you realize that. I think it hopefully makes it a little bit easier. There are

many ways we can set a boundary. We can tell someone directly, we can text them, we can leave them a voicemail, we can write them a letter, we can email them. I think it's great to speak to people in person, but the most important thing is that you get it out whatever way you can. And I know people, hey, oh my gosh, they fired me by email. Oh my gosh, they you know, broke up with me by text. And it's not the ideal strategy because some things we believe

require conversation. But no, on the other end, that that is the only way that this person thought that they could get this out. That is sometimes the only way that they were able to make this request. And making the request is such a hard thing that I would hate for anyone to delay it by having to do it face to face, you know, like it might take you eight more years, it might take you fifteen more years if we have to wait to have this, you know, face to face. But if you can text it, you know,

maybe that'll make it a bit easier for you. If you could write it. And I think try to do the face to face try to have a phone call, of course, but I don't want you to be hard on yourself if you choose another modality to exercise the boundary, right, Like any of this, it's sort of finding the balance, which, yeah, that's the ideal way to do it, but if you're

not going to be able to do it otherwise. You say that there are common ways that people respond when we set a boundary, and I thought maybe we could walk through what a few of these are, but I'm gonna start with the last one that is on the list, which is acceptance. And you say that most of the time people respond to boundaries fairly. Well, you know, but again, depend on you in your situation. You may get different things. But to assume it's going to go to bad, it's

just not always that way. Yeah, most of the boundaries we set our honored. We just don't think of those things as boundaries because they're so easy. When I have well pre pandemic, I would have boundary workshops and I would ask people what are some of the boundaries you have, and they would talk about, well, in my house, I don't like this and that that that the all of these things, all of these rules in my car in my house, at work, in this relationship. And these are

people who thought they had no boundaries. Black you have tons, You have tons, but they were just so easy to set to say to someone, you know, maybe your your hard thing is not saying no two invites. Maybe that's easy for you. Yeah, so that's not going to be something where you struggle. It's like, yeah, I tell people notice stuff all the time. Great that yeah, that's a boundary. That's a boundary. And see how easily you do that. Most of those boundaries, for you have been approved. People

haven't said, oh my gosh, I can't believe it. You know, it's been approved, it's been accepted. But there are other times when you know, perhaps there's something just a little bit harder that gets in the way of us being able to, you know, really explore those boundaries with people. So when we run into things like say somebody ignoring a boundary, you say often in the book there's sort of two steps to this process. One is setting the boundary, and then the second is you actually then have to

sort of follow it. What are some good ways of you know, dealing with when people are ignoring a boundary or our limit testing restating the boundary very clearly, going back to that three step process, going back to clearly and directly stating what the boundary is, because sometimes we'll

get into the rhythm of pretending with them. Once they ignore the boundary or they push back, we we just throw away the boundary because we decide this person just can't listen us, so I'm going to stop trying to have this boundary with them, when really the work is to continue with your boundary, to restate that boundary and really stick to it, not to say, Okay, I don't have the boundary anymore because you made it too hard for me. Well, that's what they wanted, and they, you know,

they got what they wanted. Now they don't have to have this boundary with you. Now. In most cases, you know, people won't go this far. But there are sometimes where people will ely ignore your boundary because it doesn't work for them, it's not what they want. I've had people say, you know, um, well that's not what I wanted to do. Okay, you know, so they try to, you know, create a new rule. We do that all the time with spaces. We'll argue with people about a rule that they have

that's a you know, a rule on the paper. You know, this is our rule here, and people don't like it. They're like, no, no, change your rule for me. It's like, well this, you know, this is the rule. So you know, I think sometimes people do want to push back because they want something else. They do ignore because they don't want you to have this boundary because it does not

work for them. When I hear that, I think about the fact that it seems inevitably we run into situations where my boundary and your boundary might not agree with each other absolutely. You know, what are some strategies for working through that? Assuming that you know, it's not as simple as like, well, that relationship is not really important,

I'm going to get rid of it. You know. I was thinking of one in your book where you were talking about a gentleman whose father drank too much and the different people in the family dealt with it differently, and one of the things his brother did was sort of pick a fight at family gatherings, and the gentleman was encouraged to set a new boundary with his brother, which was, please stop picking fights with dad at family gatherings.

And I heard that and I thought, well, Okay. I can see saying Okay, that's what I would want, But the brother might be like, no, I want to discuss these things with dad. So you run into the situation where we see these things differently and my boundary sort of encroaches yours or vice versa. In that case, I will say, well, whose house is it? You know? You know, I think maybe if we have the gathering at your house, you can pick the fight, and if we have the

gathering at my house, you cannot pick the foul fight. Like, so, where can we figure out some sort of compromise with this, because certain things can be compromised. I don't have to go to your house if I don't want to watch the fight. That's my choice. So I think there are some things where there is a clear collision and we just can't come to an agreement or anything. And I think there are many instances where there is some work

around with these boundaries. It seems that on one hand, we sort of say, and you often encourage people in the book, you know, you don't have to explain and justify your boundary, And I think that makes a lot of sense, and we may have a tendency to do that more often, but is it often helpful and in closer relationships and particularly if we are seeing things differently in this way that we do discuss and explain and

negotiate a boundary. Well, in some instances we might give people a reason, but I wouldn't say a reason is an explanation. Um Explaining to me means you're looking for acceptance from from what you're saying, Like I'm explaining myself with the hope of you getting it and understanding it and now agreeing with me. And I think giving them a reason is saying, you know, this is why I've

decided to do this thing. But all boundaries are not negotiable, and we should not enter our boundaries in certain scenarios with negotiation, you know, like this is something that we can talk through. There are some things that we had not talked through, and partnerships, you know, we had not talked through. Overspending, you know, it's like it's hurting our household because we're unable to pay bills, so there's really no perhaps no negotiation when there is a small pool

of money, you know, like these sort of things. It's like some things are not negotiable because it can be a crisis. If we are negotiating in certain situations where it can be detrimental to our relationship. If we are negotiating now there are other things. If you're asking your partner with some support with the chores, and you want to negotiate, you know how often they clean, what days,

that sort of thing, go ahead and negotiate it. But you really have to figure out what is something that can be figured out together, and what is something that this is a matter of safety or crisis, and there is no negotiation and we really can't come to some middle ground on this. I love that that you can give a reason, but that's not the same thing as explaining makes a lot of sense. All right, we are

near the end of our time. But I want to end with one last line that you had that I thought was really really good, which was if an ultimatum is issued and not adhered to, it's a threat. People don't respect threats, but they can learn to respect ultimatum. I thought that was really really well said. They can learn to respect ultimatums. Yeah, I think ultimatums get a bad rap because what we're used to say is not

actually an ultimatum. We're used the same threats labeled as automatums if you do this and this, and then they do it and nothing happens. Um, it's you know, it's actually a parenting technique to say when we get home, you're going to do to do it, and then when we get home they get to do whatever they were

going to do. Anyway. UM. I sometimes use that strategy. Uh, but I think it's one of those things that we've gotten so used to not following through because we really don't like the consequence we issue this, you know, big grand consequence when you get home no one's watching TV. Well that means I'm on punishment too. I don't want to be on punishment, So so I'm going to know. I'm going to let go of this thing. If you don't do this by this date, you will have to

leave or whatever it is. It's like, well, I don't want you to leave. So sometimes we go into it with this big thing that we can't even honor, and so it's really helpful to think about what can you actually do. It doesn't have to be huge, it doesn't have to be if you don't do this and I will end the relationship. It could be I will not help you pay your bills anymore if you're not actively looking for a job or I will not be able to help you with blank if you continue to do this.

Once you start to yale, I will walk away from the situation and try to come back to you once I think you're calm, you know, giving people something that you can actually do and not a threat, but something that you're intentional about. I love that idea. I think that's a great place for us to wrap up. Thank you so much. We're taking the time to come on. The book is called Set Boundaries, Find Peace, a Guide to reclaiming Yourself, and I really appreciate you taking the

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