Michael Galinsky

We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they their good Wolf.

Thanks for joining us. Our guest today is Michael Glinsky, American filmmaker, cinematographer, and musician who has produced and directed a number of documentaries, including Battle for Brooklyn and Who Took Johnny. Michael also runs a production and distribution company called Rumor. He's currently running a Kickstarter campaign to fund his new film All the Rage, which is based on the pioneering work of Dr John Sarno. Dr Sardo is a leading figure and understanding the role of emotions in

physical pain. Here's the interview. Hi Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you, thanks serous, thanks for having me. I'm excited to get you on the show. I'm really interested in the movie you're working to make right now. We'll talk a lot more about that as we go on, but

i'd like to start off as we always do. Um our podcast is called The One You Feed, and it's based on the parable of Two Wolves, where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. One is a good wolf. It represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred

and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks, and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed? So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well. It actually it means a lot to both of those things. And the work that we're doing now is a film that's started out largely about Dr John Sardo and his book Healing Back Pain,

which is basically about mind body medicine. And the reason we're making it is uh because my family has a long history with him and we and I see the importance of this story. H His his understanding is that the back pain epidemic and the pain epidemic is related to the repression of our emotions. Um Essentially, it's not a structural problem. It's actually not a physically based problem. It's that there repression of our emotions causes problems within

our autonomic nervous system which lead to the pain. And so the point is is that if you think negative thoughts about yourself without the world, it kind of keeps that going. And in the process of making this movie, which has taken ten years, I have been on a very long journey myself to get and get to the to the truth of that very simple idea. And because these patterns that we live by run so deep. If if we feed the negative for a long time, it's going to get very strong, and it takes a while

to weaken it by by feeding the other part. And it feels a little un natural to feed the other part, to feed the positive to see that that good wolf, and uh, I'm excited to say that over the last five to six months, maybe the last year, Uh, the good wolf feels like it's starting to win. So I'm connected to a both in relation to the work that we're doing on this film, but also on this personal level, um, which actually makes to see the film seem more possible, uh,

to have a powerful effect. So the film, and you've got a Kickstarter campaign going right now, and I think that's how I got introduced to your work. I was actually I'm actually a supporter of it. And the film is called All the Rage, and it is based on the work, as you said, of Dr John Sarno, who is is essentially postulating that a good deal of the pain that we feel has to do with repressed emotions.

Is that that's exactly what Dr Sarno's over ninety years old and he recently retired, and um, when he started his practice, Uh, he was familiar with the work of Freud and it was still it was at the edge of its being in vogue when uh the kind of

age of mechanistic medicine was starting to take hold. And when he found when he was an orthopedic doctor, he was teaching working at Orthopedic Medicine n y Use Rough Institute for readable to his medic And it's important to know also that before he worked there, he started the first group practice in New York State, and he was called the Hudson Cooperative. And so each day all of the different doctors who dealt in the different realms of medicine met each day to talk about all the patients

that they dealt with. So there's a very comprehensive approach to the whole person um. Even though they might be being a specialist in one realm, they would talk about with every other doctor so they would have a better understanding of what their patients were dealing with from the

variety of um perspectives. So then when he was working at the Rough Constitute, he found that everything he'd been taught about standard care for for back pain, which is what he was dealing with, just didn't seem to help the physical therapy, the hot and cold didn't really make sense. It didn't seem to have a scientific basis. And then when he looked to at the data to support standard care at the time, he found that there really wasn't

any He was just standard care. Um. He was also curious as to why none of this was actually working, and when he went he looked at his patients charts, he found that of them had a history of two or more psychosomatic allsss, uh migraines, colitis, egxema, ulcers um, things that were known or thought at the time to have a mind body connection. So he realized that that

pain was probably connected to that as well. He started to talk to his patients and he started to see that a lot of his patients did a certain type of pattern where he would call them a goodest. They really really put themselves under pressure to be perfect and good and um. They had a difficult time saying no to people. They would always want to they would want to do for others before they would do for themselves.

And we got them to find, you know, just basically see that connection and see the possibility that you know, they might not be dealing with things they needed to deal with. They started to get better, and he further developed um his practice by kind of getting a better sense of the knowledge that made sense and understanding how

the how the system worked. And what he ended up postulating was that it was, you know, from a very Freudian perspective, that the unconscious was so afraid that these um thoughts that were not supposed to rise out of the unconscious might rise to consciousness that it used the automnob nervous system to reduce blood flow to a certain

area which would cause pain, thereby diverting the attention. And when he got people to slowly understand that, they would start to see they could use their pain as a barometer and they would start to think about the thing that they weren't supposed to be thinking, and they could kind of get it to go away. So he was able to get people to kind of see how the pattern and process worked, and in that way they were able to kind of take control of it and to heal.

I haven't seen the movie because it's not made, but in the in the clips that you have, you are battling pain yourself, and so assuming that you have at least for yourself personal evidence that says that there's some credibility of this theory. Absolutely. Um, you know, my dad, this is the way we came to know about doctor Sir.

My dad got the book in the early to mid eighties and he was a clinical psychologist, so he understood the theories and at the time he had whiplash and Dr Sonic goes into great length about whiplash where in in societies or cultures where you don't have the kind of institutionalized medicine that we have, there's no, there's not whiplash. It doesn't exist. So like in Latvia they don't have whiplash, and Sweden thirty percent of the people in an accident

get whiplash. So there's this kind of connection with what we expect and um that that also plays into it. Anyway, my my dad read the book and he got better and at the time I was probably in seventh eighth grade and he was He would come home from work

every day, have a whiskey and sitting attraction. But before that, when I was in second grade, he almost died of a bleeding ulcer, so he, you know, could see himself on every page of the book, which is what so many people say when they read the book, and he got a lot better. And he didn't he wasn't It wasn't perfect, but he got a lot better. Uh. A few years later, my brother had terrible rs I kind of hand problems. He couldn't type, and he couldn't drive.

He even gave me his car because he just couldn't grip his hands on the wheel. Um. A doctor in New York told him he had and it was supposed to be like one of the best surgeons in the city told me he had to carveboy bone in his collar bone to free the nerves from his neck going to his hand. And my dad was like, can you just go see Dr SnO And he did. He went to see Dr Sarno, and Um, within a week he was eight percent better and he took his car back

from me. And he'd been struggling with us for two or three years, and he had been getting worse and worse and worse. So he got the connection and he was able to reverse the course of this problem. At that point, I read the book myself and my back would go out once or twice a year. That was a band I was carrying heavy ants. That was it was stressful. Um, and every now and then it would

it would. God. I remember carrying a big, heavy ant over an icy pathway on the day before we went on a big tour and I threw up my back. So you know the kind of the stresses when you look back and go oh, it wasn't really that action, it was what was going on. UM. So I read the book and I didn't have a back problem for ten years. I was. I was great for ten full years. Um. And then UM, I had a kid. I had two

stressful movies. I was trying to fix up a house and it started to come on and I was fighting it. I was reading the book and I was fighting it, fighting and reading the book, getting worse and work boom. I hit the floor like a ton of bricks and I could I couldn't. I mean, I couldn't even move it was. I was in so much pain. So my friend had to get three VI get in me before you could even put me in a car to take me to my house. UM. And you know, I had

been reading the book and and it hadn't helped. I ended up getting an m R. I I was told I too hadn't have surgery. I had an l four disc protusion, and once again my dad was like, would you just go see him? UM? And I did. I want to see him and I got better, and at that point I said, can we make a documentary about you? Um. That was two thousand and four, and we started to try and make a documentary. UM. We couldn't even talk to people about it. You'd say, hey, do you realize

that this is going on? That you know a lot, a lot of the pain problem is actually repressed emotions, and people didn't want to hear it. We applied for twenty or thirty grand, so we didn't get any and we just couldn't figure out how to make the movie, so kind of stalled. When it happened again in two thousand eleven, we get to the footage this in the film and I screamed to my partners, I said, grab the camera. We're making this movie, and we're making it now.

And that's kind of how the movie's really come together in the last three years. It sounds too easy, too good to be true, right that that I just read the book. I realized that my emotions are the problem, and I get better, And it sounds like you even having that knowledge, UM, doesn't Just knowing it seems to maybe start the process, but it sounds like there's a lot more to be done, uh, in dealing with these

repressed emotions than just knowing that that's the problem. Well, it goes back to the wolves, right, You know, if you cannot fully get the simplicity of that message because the patterns run so deep, it's sometimes not as easy as we might like. UM. At the same time, every person is different, and I think that this situation exists in a cultural context. So one of the things that's really interesting is when we couldn't make the movie eight

years ago, now we can. And the reason we can make it now is because the culture is shifting faster than than most people can imagine. I'm sure because of the work that you do, you can see it. You can see the data coming out about the relationship between stress and health. You can see the data coming out about the relationship between stress and UM and and the repressed emotions and stress. Right. Um, the culture is changing at a very rapid pace. So we live in a

cultural context. It's very difficult for us to believe things that nobody else around us believes. But when everybody else starts to believe it. It's much easier. So one thing that I think is really positive is that it becomes easier and easier for people to buy this idea because they can see more evidence of it themselves, they can see more people talking about it and UM. An interesting corollary to that is I've been looking at the reviews

of Dr Stardo's book Healing Back Pain on Amazon. This book came out in the early eighties, mid eighties, and this year it has gotten It had at the beginning of year, had like four hundred and something reviews. Now it has ninety five reviews, and they're almost entirely five star.

And if you read them. I mean a lot of people say reading the book is a healing process in itself, but literally just reading the reviews can be extremely healing because you read hundreds of stories of people reading the book and getting better and explaining how and explaining why

and the revelation that they received. You and I were talking before we um started recording, and I was talking about the Kickstarter, and what's really interesting about the Kickstarter is it hasn't really gone beyond the people who know who he is yet, so almost you know everybody who's backing this project is extremely passionate about it because of the most part, there's someone who couldn't have been through doors, never got better. Finally they either read the book or

saw him and had him miraculous recovery. And it's only miraculous because it goes against the grain of what people normally do. You have some fairly prominent people in the movie who are are big fans or supporters of of Dr Sarno. I think you've got Larry David and Howard Stern and John Stossel from or at least he was

with ABC News. Well, John Stoffel is an interesting um person in the in the movie because he is literally the only person who's ever done a major media piece about Dr Sarno, and it was you know, it had a huge impact on people. It was in that it was on and you know, even at the time, John Stoffel was kind of the crank uh, that non straight up liberal guy on and so he was kind of

often approaching it from an outsider's point of view. But his piece was so profound because in it three people were healed by going to see Dr sarna One of them was Rosie O'donnald's assistant, Jeanette Barbara, and she had to use like basically an electric wheelchair to get around the city because she couldn't walk. And three weeks of the practice and she was better in walking around and she's still very vocal about that. And there were also

two other people. But what's astounding is, you know, this was before YouTube and even before the day. So when eBay kind of came around, that tape of that show, we're going for several hundred dollars because it was so hard to find. Uh. YouTube made it much easier for

people to connect with. But John stawso when we did interview him, he said, to this day, once a week at least someone stops him in airport and I think they're gonna say, John Suta, I love your libertarian politics, but they say, no, you know, I saw that and saved my life. And after we interviewed him in his apartment, he texted me twenty minutes later he said, I went out for a coffee and the first person I saw stopped me and said that saved my life. So that's

kind of interesting. And then, you know, it is interesting also when you think about the fact that there's several comedians in the piece, right, because comedians tend to be highly repressive of their motions because they want to please people so much so Howard Stern has one, Larry Davids one, Jonathan Ames is one um and they're all in the movie, which is great. What does Dr Sarno get into in

more detail in the book Healing Back Pain? Because what you've said is a pretty simple premise, right, you can say it in a sentence, right like, um, repressed emotions can lead to pain, and if you don't repress those emotions, you'll have less pain. Is there more of a prescription in the book. Yeah, well, his I mean his prescription

as he says his knowledge. Yeah. I think it's really interesting and I'm afraid I fit the goodest um profile sometimes that I'm going to go against that goodest tendency here and ask you some challenging questions. I'm a I'm a supporter of of uh your your campaign, and I do I do believe very much that what we think about and all that can have and does have um connections to our body. The idea that the mind and body aren't connected seems silly to me. I mean, the

nerves run right down there. I mean, it's it's clearly very much connected. I'm I'm, I'm a little I'm still and I've asked I kind of poked at this question a couple of different ways a little bit around. Like take, for example, I have depression, and I think I know a lot of the things maybe earlier in my life that may have caused me to act certain ways. For me, though, just knowing that hasn't caused that to completely go away.

And that's what I'm kind of And it sounds like you knew about Dr Sarno and you still, you know, found yourself back in in back pain. And I know there's a difference between knowing something and actually living and doing it that can be a pretty wide gulf. And so maybe that's what we're getting at. I'm just kind of trying to understand more. It's it's one of those I'm always skeptical of too good to be true, right, Like I've I've had this problem and then you know,

ten easy steps to never being unhappy again. And so it sounds to me like the theory maybe a correct but that bringing those changes about in your life may not be as easy as just reading the book absolutely, and for some fool it's as easy as reading the book. For some people they need to go through intensive therapy. We all have a different um level of experiences in our life, some of which are painful um and some

of which are not painful. But you know, I think that one of the reasons that I decided to be a character in the film is because I didn't read the book and get completely better. I did at one point, and then when the pressures of life and the patterns um that I exhibited that I that I participated in caught up with me. So you know, as you said, you yourself are a goodest, well so was I. And

it's a it's a hard pattern to break. So even in saying my my relationship with my wife, UM relationships are very difficult because what they require is two people to be unchanging, otherwise they lose the balance that they have. And so when you change, it's it's a difficult process. And so part of our problems sometimes have to do with the different relationships we have. We change, our parents don't want us to change, our wives don't want us to change. They don't want to upset the balance. So

there's a lot of different factors at play in these situations. Um, it's not simple, it's not there's not a simple answer. I think what kind of want the film to to recognize. And I'm really glad you brought this up because we're not saying it's it's this simple like a pill, take a pill kind of thing. But what we really want to do is shift the perception back to the idea that there is a balance between our mind and the body, and our bodies that have a humongous effect on our health.

And I think unfortunately the mechanistic approach to medicine and too science has not respected that reality, and that's what led us to a lot of problems. I agree with that there seems to be two extremes. One is, as you said, the mechanistic or reductionist medicine that says that doesn't even acknowledge that as a possibility. And then the flip side of that, which is all the way over at the other side, that says, you know your entire experience in your life and everything that happens to you

as a result of the way you think. And I also think that that is um nonsense. I think you had a post recently on your blog where somebody asked doctor who had a torn achilles heal last Dr Sarno, is this is this, uh, you know because of my emotions. He's like, no, of course, not because you've tore your achilles heal. Right, but but he pointed out, and this is what it's interesting. So yes, that happened, But what she realized is not that that wasn't the cause of

the pain originally. But your achilles tendon will heal itself and the pain will go away because the pain is there for a reason. And when the reason is no longer there because it's not damaged, the pain should go away. But what often happens is it stays. So there's a whole there's there's so many different aspects of this. So on one level, yes, it's very simple, and another level it's very complex. And yet even as it's complex, it's simple if we can just go there and be with

these thoughts. So one of the one of the things that connects all these three different guys that I brought up, Dr Clark, Dr Mante and actually um I gotta call the other day from a dermatologist who practices his way and Dr Sarno is the autonomic nervous system, right, and the autonomic nervous system is is we we see this as the automatic nervous system, the stuff that goes automatically.

I like to think of it in some ways as the less conscious nervous system, because when we pay attention to it, we can change the way that it behaves if we bring our attention to it. So at the end of the movie, the movie becomes actually quite focused on spirituality and on the idea of meditation and mindfulness, because I think through these practices we can become more in touch with what we think and what we feel, and through that process we can take more control over

how we react to things. And it's central to that is the notion of fear. And much of our unconscious issues have to do with fear. Um. I have some kittens now, which is really useful to understand these things. A kitten gets scared and it runs away, and then it shakes it off and then it's fine. Now, if

you think about this. There's another doctor or I don't even know if he's actually a doctor, but he's a healer based in England, and Ashtak Gupta who does a lot of stuff with um, with meditation and with kind of understanding these ideas and once again from a different cultural constant construct he was dealing with mostly with chronic fatigue, because he had chronic fatigue as a medical student, and then he spent ten years figuring out what was going

on and came up with his program to deal with it. And it all comes back to the amygdala, which is connects all of these different things, which is the fight or flight response. It's the pretty linguistic. It recognizes that there's a danger and it gets out of the way. Right. They think about it this way. He says that the amygdala you almost say, you step off a curb and you almost get hit by a bus because you're not paying attention. Right, The amygdala then pulls you off the curb.

You know, you're whoa, which has happened? That was scary? Now you're Amigdella checks him with your cortex, which is your thinking brain, your rational brain, and says, hey, abus is scary. Two things can happen if you're kind of timed to be afraid, if you're primed to go towards the negative, you might go, yeah, busses are scary. Now, whenever you see a bus, you're amygdala says, I don't need to bother the cortex. I'm just going to get the stress worm on going so that we're ready for

the threat. If if your cortex says, hey, you know buses, busses aren't scary, acting like an idiot not paying attention to where you're going death scary. Pay attention, dude, right, So then you don't get the stress worman every time you learn to be a little bit more aware as you go around. And those are two different things. But if you do that on a repetitive, constant basis and

you're constantly unconsciously stressed, it plays absolute havoc with your body. Yeah, we had a guest on the show, um Dr Shriny Paley, and he he does studies on this sort of thing around the amygdala, and he has some really interesting studies that talk about the idea of unconscious fear that are amygdala can be as you said, releasing stress hormones and

be triggered and we have no idea of it. They did some studies where they would show people, um, you know, something terrifying that they would always show it to him for you know, ten milliseconds, which is not enough to register consciously, and yet you know, they could see in the brain like yep, there it went. It's afraid And so it is a you know, it's definitely seems to be a real real challenge there, which I'm always sort of wondering, well, how do I how do you deal

with something that you can't can't even see? Um? You know, on the show we talk a lot about meditation, and it's been been a huge help to me in in my life and trying to just and starting to become more aware of what's going on at um more of an unconscious or at least repetitive habitual level. Yeah, and and for me as well. This last year, I went actually to get earlier mentioned Dr Norton Hadler's book and I went to get his book from the library, and

next to it on the shelf with mindfulness. So I picked it up and I read both of them, and I started the mindfulness practice. And it is a practice. It has taken me a long time to get to a place where I'm actually able to to get a real benefit from it. It was good for me at the time, but now it's actually I felt it has a very powerful ability to help me to pull things together, to be aware of what's going on in my bond. And so back to the very first question asked me,

you know, has your own experience helped you? And it has, Like I can see what clues did I have that what Dr Starnett was straying was true. My my pain is a barometer for what's going on in my life. So if I'm stressed out, I know it because of my foot. Sometimes I'm not aware of it and I go, oh, my foot is bugging me, and I have to learn

And this goes back to the habits. One thing I've I've learned is probably because of a U unconsciously low self esteem on some level, I pushed myself way beyond that capacity, way too often, and I've learned to not do that. So as we started to get up for this Kickstarter campaign a week and a half ago, I was I was doing that and my foot was bugging me. That night I thought about it, I said, tomorrow I'm

working complete me differently, and I got up. I took on a break because I didn't get into that kind of adrenaline fueled work cycle. That felt good. It felt like I was getting something done, but it was clearly not working. It was not good for me, and it

was very bad for my body. And so even even doing this Kickstarter has been a practice of trying to do it differently, to to not take things very seriously, to not think of each instance as being of utmost importance, and that things are, you know, relying on it to be just pleasant in the moment and accept what comes. And it's had a profound effect. I mean, I'll tell you that. In the last six months, it's been crazy.

Like in the past, if I had a film shoot, I would get nervous and they'd be like stressed out before. It doesn't really happen in the same way anymore. And in some ways, I like, it feels wrong to not be stressed out before shoot, like I'm going to forget something or I'm gonna do something, But it's actually I'm doing. I'm much more in the moment and there's very few mistakes.

And uh, you know, this week we shot um. I don't know if you're familiar with Prince E from St. Louis, who's done a number of recent videos that are just wildly viral, and he did one, Yeah, he did sixty seconds, um, how to be how to get stressed free? In sixty seconds. I saw that. I was like, that's you're you're talking about that. I'm realvie. It echoed all the stuff I'd recently been reading for Necker Toll and from um M daff and so I reached out to me. He said, sure, yeah,

I'm happy to shoot with you. So I went there last week and I didn't have his phone number. I didn't, you know, know, how to get in touch with him. I was emailing and he wasn't responding. And you know, at the point, where was the person who was trying to help me, UM do sound and get to him? I said to her, you know what, it's uh, it's cool, it's not gonna happen. And I don't. I don't actually, I'm not upset. In the past, that would have been

really upset. It would have been stressed that but it just did what it and of course right then and so I let it go to the phone rang and we had an amazing shoot and I just put up the video just now and it's it's awesome and he's awesome. And so when it when you know, it's interesting too because I just saw a video he did a couple of years ago. It's more of a hip hop video, and there's this kind of internal struggle that he's having at that point that you can see if there's an

anger there. And he's just a completely different person now because he walks. The talk that he talks about was just letting go of the stuff. And it's so clear to me after meeting him and after watching him he has he's let it go. The guy's getting fifty million views of his videos and he's just the most humbled person I have I've ever met. Listeners probably tired of sort of hearing about these semi contradictory things or or

paradoxical things. But just a minute ago, you know, we started talking about this idea of part of the issue is we're goodests and we repressed things, and and my one of my major ways of doing that is that I repress that something bothers me. And you just talked about a situation where, um, you were you sort of had a situation that might have bothered you and it didn't because you let it go. And I'm always interested in that distinction between um, in between letting something go

for real and repressing something. Well what I'm just interested in your thoughts on That's interesting because the truth is what I was struggling with at that The reason I was even bringing up to her is because it was a bit of a struggle, because it was this long period of time where it was like trying to make it happen and struggling with that idea of being able to let it go, because I had traveled all the way to St. Louis to film him and it seemed

like it wasn't going to happen, and so you know, there was, there were There was The wolves were at each other inside me, and and they were but they were they were It was more like my kittens playing. They weren't angry. And the point I was making was I, you know, I was accessing what this might have felt like six months earlier, and I think I would have been really stressed out, and I would have been my mind would have been racing and be trying to think

of everything I could do to make it happen. And instead, you know, I might have been calling ten different people like trying to figure this out. And the whole point was that I had committed myself to not doing that, and so there was some internal struggle there, but I was actually calm and I was I would I could check in my body and my foot wasn't tense, which is a good barometer for me, and I was just

I was I had accepted. You know, I was actually really going with what Prince speaks a lot about, was just being present, accepting what is, and not judging the moment. And I think judgment is central to judgment and central to all of these ideas. Fear is jud and central to all of these ideas, and and empathy essential to all these ideas. And I recognized that he probably had some things he had to deal with, and that was that was that, And like you know, I made the

decision to come knowing that he wasn't. I didn't even have a time or a day, and you know, it just it was on me and I accepted what it was. And what I found interesting was I also found a lesson in it that as soon as I let it go for real, because you were good thing, I was struggling with it. And what I said is, as I said that to her, I really felt myself completely let it go. It just didn't matter to me because you know what, I figured, if it didn't happen now, it

would happen in the future. Or maybe it wasn't even meant to be in the film. It just is what it was. And I wasn't overthinking it. And as soon as I stopped over thinking, I stopped thinking about it, it came. And you know that sounds quasi mystical, it sounds quasi whatever, but that was my completely authentic experience the time, and it felt like, Okay, this makes so

much sense. And then what was really interesting is a lot of his stuff that he's talking about really echoes many other gurus and speech spiritual people have come before him, especially like I said, ere Toll. And on the way there, we passed a paint and auto body shop where the t had fallen off paint and the amber sand had fallen off, so the sign outside literally said pain body. And even though we were late, I said, I have to film this because we then I get it later.

And then we got there and he was the reason. Actually he wasn't able to do it was his car broke down. He was getting him fixed. You know, He's like, you know, I gotta deal with this. So we went to where he was, and we picked him up and we brought him back to that place and we filmed in front of the pain Body sign, and it just, you know, it all made so much sense because you know, these these things appear when when we're ready to see them, when we're ready to hear them, and we're ready to

know them. And I think that's really a big part of the message of this movie, which is that know a lot of us just about not overthinking it and just being with it. And that's a really really like you know what I'm saying. It's taking me ten years to begin to get close to understanding that. Uh, but now I'm really feel excited and happy to be able to make the movie. And one of the reasons it took us ten years to make the movie is we weren't ready to make the movie before, but now we

are excellent. Well, let's tell people where they can support the campaign if they want. The movie looks really interesting, the subject matter is very interesting to me. You've made a lot of other really good movies, so that the movie itself looks really interesting and as part of the reason I supported it. So where can people go to do that? It's really simple, It's just the movies called

all the Rage. You know, it's a clauseye positive saying it's all the rage, but all the rage is part of the problem, and it's all the Rage dot tv. Is how you get to it? And how much longer is the kickstarter campaign going until decemb okay, so there's some time left, and you know, I think you you might be surprised by the number of people who listen to your podcast, Um, who know who Dr Sarno is. And that's a big challenge right now, is just getting in front of people who know and love Dr Sono

because there are hundreds of thousands of them. Well, if you, uh, if you know of Dr Sarno, I think head over to All the Rage dot tv. And if you're interested in this topic and and uh, you know, more people learning about and understanding this stuff. This is a you know, supporting Michael is a great, great way to do that. Well, Michael, thanks so much for coming on the show. I wish you the best of luck with getting the movie funded and out there. Any idea of when, um, assuming your

campaign is successful, we'll get to see the movie. Well, the goal is to try and finish it. By Nicks fall. I mean it takes we've shot of the movie. Although one of the interesting things about the Kickstarter campaign is we're finally kind of out in the world with the movie and such amazing stories are coming to us, an amazing people are coming to us, So we're trying to figure out how to integrate all them to the movie and the website, you know, because the movie will not

be able to contain all of this stuff. I mean, as someone who's following the project, you see we're posting, you know, hours of footage all the time. We're just posting so much footage and so much because there's so much amazing stuff there. Like we talked about the comedians, but we didn't mention um. For instance, Ben Crame, a golfer who won the Memphis st Jud's Classics this year, is also a patient and he's he's an amazing, soulful person who just gave us the most beautiful interview and

and so much great insight. So we're posting like clips like that and clips with group to things that we just can't fit it all in the movie. So we're trying to make the website this great resource. Well it is, there's a lot of great stuff there. So again, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with us, and best of luck and we will look forward to seeing the movie. Yeah, and thank you. I really appreciate UM, I appreciate you. Oh, you're welcome. Take care, okay bye.

You can learn more about this podcast and Michael Golinsky at one you feed dot net slash Michael