Manoush Zomorodi

self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good will. Thanks

for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Manu Summer Roadie, the host and managing editor of Note to Self, the tech show about being human from w NYC Studios. Every week on her podcast menu, searches for answers to life's digital quandaries through experiments and conversations with listeners and experts. Topics include information overload, digital clutter, sexting scandals, and the

eavesdropping capabilities of our gadgets. The Note to Self podcast is starting a new challenge called Infomagical to help cope with information overload. You'll hear more about it during this episode. If you want to sign up to participate, go to w n YC dot org slash info Magical Challenge Week starts February one and runs through February five. This interview was recorded live in the w NYC studios in New York City, home of other popular podcasts like Radio Lab,

The New York Radio Hour, and Freeconomics. And here's the interview with Manu samar ROADI him a nush, Welcome to the show. It is so great to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to get you on and talk more about your current program called Infomagical. Um. You did Board and Brilliant about a year ago, which is a great program. But you're really focused on how we stay human in a in a rapidly changing technological and digital age. That is kind of what we try

to do. I mean, we try to you know, these projects I think we're finding our way. But what we've seen is that people don't just want to understand the algorithms. They don't just want to hear the stories about how they affect their lives. They want to also like figure out ways um to make their lives better by using

these things. So we try to, you know, give them some experiments, some different ways that they can um play around and and hopefully feel as though the technology is helping them be more productive, um maybe even happier um and and use it. I think what we're seeing is that people have to really be more aware of their own um reaction and the way that they act with this technology, and and that the techies, the people making this stuff are not necessarily looking out for our best interests. Right.

The technology is largely going to be neutral. It's it's how we use it, and we'll we'll dig into a lot of that here in a minute. Let's start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandfather is talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,

which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I've been thinking about it all weekends and in preparations for well, there's actually two answers,

I feel like. So I feel like, UM, many of us, and certainly speaking for myself, don't just have one wolf. It's like good wolf packs and bad wolf packs. I've decided. And so some of the things that the bad wolf does, um, which is make me competitive, make me want to work every hour of the day, make me short with my children because they move at a different pace than I want to. Some of those things actually are good. It's a matter of the other wolf pack, the good wolf

pack sort of nipping. They nippit each other's heels. I feel like when the good wolf gets too kind and too complacent, because I do think that is possible. Sometimes, um, the bad wolves start to howl and nip at their heels. And then then same way the other way around that when I get too competitive or shortsighted or um wrapped up in my own bowl shit um, then the good wolves start like nipping at them, so they I feel as though they have to like live together very very

much now in terms of the show. With note to self, I mean to me, that is exactly what technology is doing. Is it's showing humanity very very quickly, where your good wolf is and where your bad wolf is. For example, my phone can make me efficient in touch with my friends and family. I'm on time, I actually know where I'm going. It does delightful, wonderful things. I read more than I ever have. The good wolf is satisfied, she

likes all that. But the bad wolf, the one who wants to work all the time, the one who likes flashy, blingy things and doesn't want to do the hard work of sitting and thinking of my own thoughts, of really digging deeper into um what I read and analyzing it as opposed to just stuffing more into my head. That bad wolf gets fat and happy with my phone, and and it it can't control itself, and so to me.

It's like those two wolves are so embodied in our technology, and very much like you do on the show, you have to think about which one you're feeding at all times. And if you don't think about it, um, well, the bad wolf is fat and happy, so he he, he doesn't care what he eats, you know what I mean, Like you have to feed good stuff to the good wolf, but the bad wolf will take all your garbage. And yeah, totally.

What makes me think of when you talk about that, I think that I always am struck by how are some of our our best tendencies can also become our greatest weakness is taken too far. It's like all that stuff too far one way or the other, that that desire to create and make things can turn competitive, it can it can turn obsessive, it can turn but it's it's a positive thing in general. It's one of the things that is I think is good about myself. But

if I don't watch it, it goes too far. Yeah, I mean, and like you said, if you don't watch it, I mean that's exhausting, constantly checking in on yourself. You know, it's tiring, but it's what I hope we ask our audience to do is to do a little bit of hard work up front and then see some like real paybacks, like big time, like that that the stuff that you dig and get to will be so worthwhile that you'll be glad that you did the constant like checking in

at the front. You say the show is about keeping your humanity in this very digital time. What does that term keeping your humanity mean? Do you? It's not just about how we use, you know, our digital habits, but I think it's also very much understanding how the technology works so that you can push back. I think we take it for granted. We're like, oh, there's a new iPhone out, I guess I'll upgrade. Um, Google Photos, that's awesome, look what it does to my pictures. But I think

it feels like it's like sprouted from the earth. It is just so it just feels like it always existed, that it's magical in some ways. But what we have to kind of understand is there are people making these things who maybe have certain not only agendas, but maybe

don't even know about a lot of the things. So I'm thinking of an example, Um, we did a show specifically about deep learning to try to explain what deep learning is and and we use the example of Google Photos, which, um does it organizes your photos, but it also like can read like it looks at the pictures and it says, oh, it's a boat, and so it labels it as a boat. In this case, unfortunately, it labeled an African American woman

as a gorilla. And so this was you know, this lovely young guy who I subsequently went to go meet in Brooklyn. Um, he I actually twenty two year old guy. This happened to his friend. He's the one who tweeted at Google and was like not cool calling me and my friends guerrillas. UM. And I wanted to just go talk to him and be like, not only what did that feel like? But um, it sort of it showed

me something. This guy lived two miles away from my house in a neighborhood that I had never gone to, and he said to me, He's like Google Photos was made for people like you. I was like, upper mental class white mommy's you know, I get it. Um, I need to understand that more. UM. I need to understand what people who are not being prioritized with a lot of this technology, how they experienced the technology. And then we need to cycle that back. Um. Look, it's an algorithm.

Deep learning is incredibly difficult and impressive, but we need to be able to tell very human stories about what the repercussions of the technology is, so that we question it, so that we use it better, so that we um make it makes some like this world a better place. Um. Yeah, I think there's a broader message to it. So infomagical, which is is coming off when you say that, by

the way, ridiculous title you say. It's an audience engagement and podcast series that looks at the consequences of fear of missing out FOMO and too much information t m I on our brains, our relationships, and our ability to generate new ideas. Do you want to tell me a little bit about the FOMO and the t m I. What what does that do to let's start with our brains. Yeah,

so that's what I've been trying to figure out. This is something that has come up from a lot of our listeners, this idea of too much information information overload. I mean, we have so many words to describe it right now, right we say we don't have enough bandwidth. Um, you're maxed out It's kind of funny that we use tech terms to describe what's happening to our brains. Guess

what the Internet is limitless, bandwidth, limitless. Our brains, unfortunately, are not, and yet we haven't sort of put parameters around, um, what we are capable of. You know, so you you come into work, did you read did you hear it? You're seeing that Portlandia sketch where they're like, did you read it? And they're like, oh, yeah, but did you read did you read? You know, we're always one up in or two out there. We feel as though we

need to be constantly in touch. We and there are so many wonderful things to listen to, to to watch Netflix shows, my god, Amazon now kicking. But like, there's so much good stuff out there, but we physically cannot take it in, and no one has created a filter for us to decide what should we be taking in? And so we're being asked constantly every single moment of the day, should I click on this link in Facebook? Should I update Twitter?

Oh that looks interesting. You've heard of decision fatigue. I'm sure near a sciences called that. We are at decision fatigue. And so by the end of the day. I think a lot of us feel like we are kind of on this water wheel. The water wheel starts to go in the morning and you're looking up the weather and reading the headlines, and then you look at Twitter, and then you look at Facebook, and then you look at you know, Instagram, and then you know d da da dada,

and it just goes, goes, goes, goes goes. Well, as you can imagine, that is not conducive to good sleep. It is not conducive to UM. You know, we all some well some of us get that weird eye twitch at the end of the night. UM. Health wise, stress

of course, UM comes from this. We are asking ourselves to make a lot of decisions about a lot of really small things when maybe what we should be doing, and this is the question we're trying to answer, and infor magical, If we set our own filters, because the technologists aren't doing it for us, maybe we can take in the right information um and just enough, maybe even less than we think we need to paradoxically actually be

better informed. The average American takes in twelve hours of media a day, so that's half your life that you're taking in information. If you want to cut it down. Great, I'm not saying we're not trying to do that with this one. What we're trying to say is so taking stuff that matters to you, that moves you closer to your goal, and that goal could be anything where we've identified five goals that we're asking people to choose, and you know, I'd love to hear what your answer is

to this. Actually, eric Um, for one week, all the information you take in, really try to take in things that either this is mine mine is Be more creative, Um, be more in touch with friends and family, be more knowledgeable about a certain topic, be more in tune with yourself, or be more up to date on the news. What would yours be? Which would I choose? Probably more in touch with myself doesn't surprise me. I listen to your show. So the info part is pre obviously info magical. What's

the magical part. The magical part to me is when you take in the information that you want to take in, maybe you'll achieve something amazing, which is you'll learn to speak a new language, or you will finally be back in touch with that cousin who you're really close to Um back in the day, or you know, whatever you define it, but it's a little bit harder. You know, sure you might feel good after playing Candy Crush for an hour or two, but I wouldn't say that you

feel magical. I'm not even sure good yeah, maybe not even good after maybe during but after or maybe you know, you're catching up on oranges in New Black or whatever, and it's enjoyable. But in terms of magic, like like, no, the magic stuff, the stuff that is life changing, life affirming, that moves you forward a step in the direction that you want to go, takes a little bit more. Indeed, it does, but it's worth it is worth it. Um.

I mean the example I also uses. One of the things that I came to was this podcast, which was a result of UM doing a lot of uncomfortable thinking about what I wanted my life to be about. UM, and I would argue that sometimes we make magic. And here's the rest of the interview with MANW Samaradi. You're talking about how you read, would read like thirty five articles and then nothing would stick to you. The other thing that we're asking people to do, and this is

five days, so UM, it's coming up each day. Not only are you with your your goal, your schema, because we've just defined it um. But we're also giving you a slight tweak of a behavior change that we're asking you to do. Some of them are a little weird, some of them are a little wacky. So, for example, day one, we are asking people to single task. As you probably know, multitasking is a myth. Uh. Neuroscientists know that actually we cannot do two things at a time.

What we're doing is we're switching tasks extremely quickly, right. And actually they've also identified that every time you get off of your working spheres, they call it. So let's say you're working on your podcast and you get interrupted, it takes you an average of twenty three minutes and fifteen seconds to get back to the original task that you were working on. Here's another one that this is crazy to me. This is from Gloria Mark, she's a

professor at the University of California, Irvine. Um, this is crazy. Let's say you have an hour where it's nutty, right, people are stopping by your desk, you're getting emails, you're checking things. All these external interruptions are happening to you. In the subsequent hour, you will start to self interrupt to sort of mimic that pattern of interruption. We so quickly get into this habit the way that we um operate that we we sabotage our elves in a lot

of ways. So what we're asking everybody, so day one is single task, do one thing at a time. That is going to be so hard for me. I'm a working mom, but I'm gonna do it, and um, I'm gonna see if I feel magical the next day. Um Marie Condo do you know her Japanese art of decluttering. So we're doing something where we're condoing our phones, trying to find simplicity on day two. Um, Day three is avoid a meme or a must read. So whatever world you live in, um, you know if it's the you

know the dress meme, like is it? Well, you wouldn't have known that day. That day you stay away from memes. You really try see what it feels like. If someone's like, oh my god, did you see the dress? Do you see do you think it's blue and black or gold and white, and you're like, see what it feels like to say, Nope, didn't see it. Because I think it's a societal expectation that we have set I mean, so we have to start to see what it feels like to say like, no, I don't know because it's it's

not in my schema today. It's not my goal, and I'm cool with it because I've set my own expectations. And so there's a couple more going on with that. I can tell you specifically, what should I tell you? Okay, let me tell you the other two. So day four is called a magical connection. This is UM from M I. T. Psychologist Sherry Turkle. You probably read her stuff. Her latest is Reclaiming Conversation, and she talks about how you need to have a conversation voice to voice for at least

seven minutes and um. When she was talking to her college students, they were like, oh, but like, I don't really know what I want to say. I won't say it right, I'll like stumble. It's better if I write you an email because then I can make it perfect. It might be boring if we talk. And she's like, no, the boring stuff, the stuttering, all those things. We are picking up on each other's human cues. Not being perfect

is the point of being human. So we are asking people take one of the things that you've learned today when you're pursuing your information goal, share it, talk it out, get weird with someone, get past seven minutes, you know, and then on the fine all day. What we're asking people is, you know, we want a magical life, right, we're thinking big here, and it's and I'm curious to hear this is something you talk about the one you feed.

That's sort of your your sort of note to self in a way, right, remember about which wolf you're feeding. So asking people to think about what's the sort of mantra or or rule that you want to set for yourself so that every time you do start to fall down a rabbit hole online, you don't have to make a decision. The note is there. It gets you back on track. So you know, for example, Steve Jobs had one.

It was um focus and simplicity. That was his. But maybe you're writing a term paper, maybe you're a college student. Maybe you say to yourself, for every forty five minutes that I work online, I get fifteen minutes of fun time too. Maybe it's about setting up parameters for yourself.

I was thinking about what mine's going to be and I realized, like I think I've really gotten into a rut where I consume so much information, but I never stopped to actually think about I've just read to be like, oh, the person who wrote this amazing article did this so well, and then push myself to be like, well, what didn't they do well? You know, really start to be more critical, synthesize information. Um. I think this is the new digital literacy.

I really do. I think that kids have to be taught to be not just to find the right things online, which is what digital literacy is considered right now. You know who's a reputable source, but how to get the right information and to use that information. Yeah, it's it's such it's staggering to me to think of what it was like just for you know, us, as kids would. It's just so dramatically it's shocking, right Oh yeah, I mean it's I can't even feel like an old person.

Well it was. I mean, it's funny that when you said that, I just had that moment of clicking on, like the quandary was finding yes, something that's over. Yeah, that's that's kind of over. Someone once said, as far as information overload, there's no such thing as information overload, only filter failure. I think that's so true. I do think that is so true. And you know it's um I'm thinking of Corey doctor of Uh. I think he's

an n Yu were Columbia. He was saying seven years ago, what we're going to see our filters being set up to help us with this conundrum? And here we are, they're not here. We just keep getting more and more and more. So I think this becomes a part of personal growth, which is like defining your own filters. It's your now, it's your job, because I just feel like some of us are going to be sad five years from now when we look back on what we achieved

and yeah, we're caught up on Netflix. But like you know, I think we have to be. It used to sound kind of like, I don't know, mad many to say, like what's your five year plan? But I think with so many wonderful things out there to delight us and tempt us digitally, we all need to be thinking a little bit more concretely about what we want to get,

Like what's the point here? Right? Yeah? And that's I mean that very little thing, just that very question helps me a great deal with online stuff and just behavior in general is like what's what's the point? Like this very basic thing I try and do as often as I can, and I don't you know, we all are better at doing things sometimes than others, but just as often as I can catch myself like what am I doing right now? Like what am I actually doing? And why am I doing it? And is it what I

should be doing? I mean, should be right being in quotes, But ideally I have a sense of that now. You have a background as an entrepreneur, right as a businessman, and so I think those things are very much um correct me if I'm wrong, codified in the way a lot of people see themselves when they are, you know, when they own their own business. You really have to be extremely disciplined, you do, I mean, And I think I was talking with somebody about that the other day.

I was saying, I think who I was, you know, maybe ten years ago, would have struggled more with these things that I am now. I think I've gotten better at saying all right, you know, there's this period of time this needs to get done and and focusing. But it's certainly not perfect. I mean, I think that idea of that you're talking about is a student taking a term paper and say, all right, for every forty five minutes, I get a fifty minute break. I mean, working like

that is so powerful. I think Bridget Shalty in her book about it, and she called it pulsing, and it's you know, and I literally, I literally do it with a timer. It's like yeah, I mean I said, I've got one of my I mean, I don't insist on a kitchen time or or any time people do. The one on my computer works, but it's I said it for a certain amount of time, and then whatever I'm doing, what I've said I'm gonna do, I'm doing for that

period of time. I can't you know what my timer is small children, I swear to God like I get nothing done when they're around. So I know that when I have those blocks of quiet time, my brain is ready. I just jam. But before I had kids, I would have tried to quote unquote am all the time, and I wouldn't have recognized the fact that, like no, I was exhausting my brain and you can only do these

things for so long. I was talking to um maybe the Organized Mind, which is by neuroscientist Dr Daniel Levitton, and he just you know, it's kind of funny to hear a neuroscientists say this, but it's a it's a real reminder that this is indeed grounded in science. Not only should you you know, brain dump everything that's going on in your brain right everything, I mean everything that is like should you take your shoes for repair? Put it on the list. Don't just say you know all

of it so that you get a clean slate. But then he was saying, the real key to it is prioritizing that you really have to decide where the priorities

are to get things done. And I, you know, I have to say, yeah, technology, I have an awesome to do app that helps me do that, and I'm really trying to use all the functions in it to color code to say like, you know, I'm only looking at things that need to be done for my family, or I'm only looking at things that need to be done for work, and red is like right this minute, And it's just offloading some of that cognitive um um work that you have to do every time you decide what

you're working on um and technology can help us do that if we use it. Yeah, I mean David Allen of getting things done was kind of way ahead of his time with that idea of mental ram right, like, if you've got written down or in a two do app, it's on the hard drive. But otherwise it's got to stay in memory and precise exhaustion. And Daniel Leviton also which this really shocked me, he said that you can

only keep about four things in your head at one time. So, oh, I really want to get a good salad for lunch, got to remember to pick up my kid. I need to prepare for that, meaning at three o'clock. And god, my hair, I could really use a haircut. There. That's it. That's all that's in my head. Like you think that you're keeping all these plates going neuroscientifically, that is not possible.

The benefit of having a memory that's as poor as mine is just being a disaster area is that I've just finally learned that, like I can't if I don't write it down, it's it's going to be gone. But again, running at your own business, I think that, like you know,

I really see that some of them. That's the reason why some of the most efficient people are some of these tech are to people people who run their own businesses, because if you don't do that, the bills don't get paid, right, I mean, nothing like a motivator of that will definitely help you. Talk about the to do apps a little bit. I was interested in asking you, sort of in a paradoxical way, are there technologies that you found, whether they be apps or different things, that help you to be

more human? To be more human? I thought you were going to say, to be more efficient. That gives you a sense of where my head is. No, I mean, if you're focused on retaining our humanity, I'm curious, is there any apps that you think or technologies or tools that help you to do that that no one has ever asked me that. They've asked me what are the apps that make you the most productive? What are the apps that make you most deficient? But they've never asked

me what apps make me most human? I don't have to get out my phone here. Yeah, so one app. I don't use it anymore, And I think that that shows that, like the job has been done. But for our boardom Brilliant challenge, which was really about um putting down your phone, rethinking your relationship with your phone, and seeing if you could spend more time spacing out, like not meditating, spacing out, really just letting your mind go wherever it wants to. What would you feel could you

jump start your creativity? The app that we um partnered with is by lovely guy named Kevin Holish. He's a developer UH in Pittsburgh and he did this in his free time. He came up with this app that measured how much time you spent on your phone every day, which was a lot, but this was the key. Other thing that it measured was how many times a day

did you pick it up? Oh my god, Eric, Like, I think you know, you probably start wondering why you even bother to put it down at that point, completely, Yes, I think you know that's the future, right, just jacked into our brains. But like I also realized that I was doing it, Um, why didn't you even realize I was doing it? Do you know what I mean? Like I'd get in the elevator and I'd look at it. I don't I don't think I even registered what was going into my eyeballs. Like, so to me, that was

a real wake up call. And we had over twenty people sign up, and ten thousand of those people shared their data with us. So we started to see what their patterns of behavior were, and I think when you see it in number terms, it is quite shocking. So Moments a good one. There's also UM break Free, which is the the Android version of that, which I would recommend to try. And now I need to go. I'm now now, I'm like, you've really piqued my interest here.

It's the same more human I downloaded one I haven't used to yet because I'm scared. It's UM. It's an app that you take a picture of yourself and then it ages you so you can see what you look like. And the reason why I haven't used it yet well frightened for obvious reasons. But also I was talking to UM computer scientists out in the valley who was saying, UM, they want to start using digital nudges to get people

to do things that are good for yourself. So, for example, they're trying to measure if you see a picture of what you're gonna look like in thirty forty years, will that therefore make you put more money into your savings account. So this idea of looking out for your future self UM with visual cues. So I mean, I think there's so many crazy ways that. It's true, apps and technology can make us more in touch with ourselves and not just like, oh, I use Skype to talk to my

mom who lives three thousand miles away. Yeah that's an obvious one. But yeah, but those are great too, you know, Oh absolutely, yeah, I would. I wouldn't have this show without Skypes. What's on your phone? Yeah, hand it over. I gave you some goodies. All right, what you got on there? Way too much stuff. But we'll start on the home screen. So you got the basics. Calendar, map, camera, text messages, coach dot me is on the home page, which is sort of habit tracking. So I used that.

I've used that religiously every day. It's great. I mean, I just use it for I came up with a list about eight or ten things that I think contribute to my overall well being, and so they're all listed there, and I just check them off if I do them each day. My goal isn't necessary every day you do it. I don't necessarily not to do all eight or ten of them every day, No, but you you check in

on it every day. I try to. Every once in a while I miss and I go back to the second day, But yeah, I try and and in general, if um, if that list is pretty robust day after day, I'm generally in a pretty good space. There used to

be this app online, very simple, called Joe's Goals. I loved this thing, um because of what it did is you could set a list of things and you could give them points, So like meditation might be worth three points, and exercise was worth three points, and calling a friend was worth two points and gamified your life basically a little bit. Yeah, And but what was interesting was I could just I could look and if I found myself in sort of a low mood. I mean I talked

on the show all the time. I you know, I battled depression, and so if I could look at my mood off and then look back and I could see the week before, like the point titles were just going, I wasn't taking care of myself. And so I use those things just as again. The goal isn't to do every one of them every day, because it's usually impossible. Is to do a good number of them on a regular basis. But by having eight or ten, it means that I can that's flexible enough to work within a

life that's always sort of change. I mean, what you're saying like just brings up two things to me. One is, like, you know, before we had these apps, that's exactly what nutritionists or psychiatrist would ask you to do, right, is to audit yourself, to keep track of what's going on and also measure your mood. So kudos to the apps form make that even easier now. The other thing I would point out is what you've just created is really

an algorithm for your life. Right. If you know that these things have a certain quantity, then you know that the output is going to be a calmer, healthier Eric, which is fascinating to me that you can, like you can you can put it on a screen and see and and really sort of take the building blocks that

will build a good life for yourself. It can sound so cheesy to me, but at the same time, I think some of the very fundamentals of computer science can be really applied to our lives, which is fascinating to me. And the algorithm is not exact and it doesn't work perfectly, and there's no right, yeah, I don't think there's any Like I think part of being human is you're going to be up. You're going to be down here. I mean, I think that's that's unavoidable. But I certainly think I've

got a good degree of influence. Hey, laptops crash too, you know, so there you go. Absolutely all right, I'm gonna what's tell me inhabit dot me coached me. I'm going to try that. And then I've got obviously a podcast app. I've got insight Timer, which is a meditation

app like a little Timer for meditation, also has guided meditations. Well, it's good ones, you can really tell what I Yeah, I've got the Gratitude app on my homepage to break down gratitude and take a picture each day, and um the Kindle app and my expense rey for and Evernote. I'd be doomed without every note you love everyone. I've tried to get into every note so many times. I just couldn't do it. I mean, the only way that ever note works for me is when literally everything goes over.

There's no halfway with now, there's no halfway. There's not because otherwise then you're just like, well, now I've got another place to check stuff. So but I just over time, I don't think I got it right away, but over time it's slowly now I'm pretty habitual, Like where did I park when I flew out here? It's somewhere. It's an ever note really, I mean I just threw it at twelve, you know whatever. It is a team be

or you know. Yeah, but yeah, Well, when we link to the show, I would love to include a list of apps that you recommend. If that's okay, okay, great, so we'll we'll make a little post with this and stuff. That's awesome. So where can people go to join into the info Magical Challenge. They can go to w NYC dot org slash info Magical. Um, join us. I mean, I think we're going to have a lot of people. I mean, I think that's part of the joy of it too, is that we'll be all doing it at

the same time. And as we found with Board and Brilliant, you know, just being there for each other through this experience and seeing what happens is really fun and motivating. And um, with boardom Brilliant, you can also go back and do that anytime. So these projects, I think the other beautiful thing about them is that they continue to live on, because these aren't issues that are going away.

UM And I think we all need refreshers. I tried to do boardom Brilliant again this past summer, just to sort of, you know, give myself a little space and out time and not feeling guilty about not being productive because actually counter and really you are extremely productive when you space out. So yeah, I'm really excited, come join us, Come do informagical. The accountability and supportability is such an

important thing, and I think we're all. I hear from listeners a lot about how do I apply some of the things I'm hearing on the show. So here's a perfect opportunity to do just that. So you're gonna do it, Eric, Yes, I'll do it. Okay, do it? I commit? Okay, awesome. Can we check back in with you afterwards? Absolutely? All right, all right, well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure. We're sitting here in your studio, particularly fun for me to be in a

real radio studio. So playing your away game here, that's right, exactly. It's better equipment though, for sure. So I like this Mike the way it's just sort of hanging there. Fancy public radio. That's right, Thanks so much. Okay, bye, Yeah, you can learn more about Manuch, Samarodi and this podcast at one you feed dot net slash Manuch. That's m A n o U s H. Thanks