Karen Valencic

But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest today is Karen Valencic, founder of Spiral Impact and Indianapolis based speaking

training and development company. Karen leverages her expertise in communications science and martial arts to provide a distinct perspective on performance improvement. Karen is the author of the book Spiral Impact, The Power to Get It Done with Grace, and the handbook Giving Deliberate Feedback for leaders. As a black belt in aikido, the Japanese art of reconciliation, Karen weaves examples from the martial art practice into her writing and speaking.

Akito is a martial art based on position rather than force. Here's the interview. Hi, Karen, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you, Eric. It's a pleasure. I'm glad to get you on. Your book is called spiral impact, the power to get it done with grace, and we will dig more into that here in a minute, but let's start off with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves

inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in

the work that you do. Well. One thing, what a fabulous grandfather to have had. So I would have loved to have somebody when I was young asking me that or tell me that parable. But for me, in my experience and in my belief system, my outer world is really a depiction depiction of my inner world. And I find the more fear and angst and anger and stuff I hold within me, the more things don't work quite

right in my outer world. And so what I've learned is the more the more at peace and the more love and the more um worthiness I can feel inside myself, the better my life works. And and that just has become more and more obvious the more years I live. And so for me, feeding the feeding the wolves, it's there's so many different ways of feeding. And one is of course thought, my thoughts, but it's also what I

allow to go on around me. What whether I'm you know, watching the news, whether I'm you know, what movies I'm watching, what TV I'm watching, that kind of thing. And it's also you know, what am I consuming? And inside my body, I tend to be very sensitive to to what I eat and drink, and so it's like there's a you know, whatever you're consuming has an impact in terms of how you feel that that centered nous is what I call it, and and that's the wolf that I'd like to feed.

Not to say that I'm a purist on it, because I'm not, but um has a huge impact on the external world. A lot of what you do your your book spiral impact is based on your experience with the martial art of a kido. Right when did you tell me about you've been doing that? It sounds like a long time. Tell me about your journey to you know, what led you to a kido and then kind of

what brought you to today? Well, you know, I I had read about I kedo gosh, like thirty five years ago and in a book by Ramdas And there's a wonderful story by Terry Dobson in that in his book that really just talked about the philosophy of I kedo, and I was I've always had been intrigued with martial arts, but was a little bit too intimidated to actually go pursue that. But I kedo always seemed interesting to me.

And then actually I was at a dental conference about four years ago and I attended a session with a man by the name of Tom Crumb who wrote this book called The Magic of Conflict, and Tom was an ike to list and it. You know, it's one of those things that I don't know if you've experienced this in your life, but it was one of those things.

As I sat and watched Tom's demonstration, it had a huge impact in my life and I was like one of those things I just had clarity over around how my interactions weren't working for me, and I actually had clarity around how I wanted to actually study this and really make this part of my life work. And so

it was a huge impact for me. And you know, and for those of your listeners that aren't familiar with I Kedo, I Kedo is actually it is a martial art, but it's it's it's really not about force, it's about position and it makes a wonderful metaphor for communication. And what I really love about it is that it's really for me the study of me in relationship because you know, I can sit and I can meditate and I can breathe by myself, but it's when I engage with other

people is when I'm really tested. And earlier in my life, I always felt like I kind of gave my power away a lot. And what I've learned with a keto, and again it gets back to that that good wolf is to you know, have the confidence to be able to enter into relationship and not beat someone up and not give myself away. So for me, it's it's a really powerful practice. Does that make sense? It does, And that that middle ground between those two things, which is

giving up your power and being aggressive or dominant. Finding that middle ground it can be so challenging and yet

so powerful when you can do it. Yes, it's and and I tell you I've practiced at this point for years, and I have been blessed with some amazing teachers, and and what I find fascinating it was at year twenty where I had where, you know, after twenty years of consistent practice, you would think, you know, it's just you go along, but I had another kind of like cathartic awareness in terms of the depth of that whole thing.

And so it's it's interesting as as you have a practice um where you know you don't expect you don't expect another quantum leap in it, but that actually happened for me as well in terms of and it's kind of hard to articulate, but just the whole level of of how much more relaxed I can be and still have more power in those relationships. So it's it's it's a fabulous thing. One of the lines that you used often is keep moving and bend your knees. Can you

uh sort of relate that too? Is not only in the and I know I said it wrong to begin with, what's the correct way to say it? I keokeo so related to us in an I keto perspective as well as how you apply that to life. Well, So in I in II keto, UM, for one, when you bend your knees, you're more flexible and and if you you know, if you can play around with that, if you're standing right now and if your knees are slightly bent, um, you're able to move more quickly and your your center

of gravity is lower. And so that that allows you to be more flexible and able to move more and and keep moving is I think a lot of times in the in the martial art practice, we can get stuck in one spot and you can move just a tiny bit, and it shifts the dynamic of of the relationship. And that's true and you know, because what I've done is I've taken my practice in the martial art and I've really put it in a format that i call spiral impact that I teach to people for everyday life

to apply these concepts. And so in everyday life again, it's it's learning that flexibility and recognizing if you're stuck, just move, just ask a question, just get clear, unintention it's it's it's I think a lot of times we get we get married to an idea that's got to be a certain way or um yeah, position that we're holding and and and we get locked in and we don't have we don't have movement that happens. So does

that make sense? It does? I mean what a phrase that I I use a lot in talking about depression or low mood with people is that, you know, depression hates a moving target. You know, just just get moving. You have a line that says movement gives us energy and creativity. Struggle and fear makes us feel stuck. Yeah,

oh yeah. And you know, and I can remember early on in my my martial arts practice and actually you know, my my earlier career, I was an automotive engineer and and I was, you know, I was a pioneer in that for a woman. I was one of the very first woman engineers at the auto company that I worked for in Anderson, Indiana. And you know, I think that when we don't know what we're doing and we're not sure what to do, and you know, we can just freeze and and and it's like, well what do you

do from here? And again on the mat it doesn't take a lot of movement to get moving um. It just takes a little bit and it can just be bending your knees that will create movement. But in life too, it it really gets back to recognizing um. You know, it's that finding that piece withinside yourself and then you know, start asking questions and and that to me is you know, it's it's getting movement. The fact that we don't have to have all the answers and asking really good questions

is a way to get movement. And I know for me, I and I listened to your show a lot, and I do think with with depression, with UM, with any kind of of of mood stuff, For me, large physical movement is always helpful. So so even if you're in a work situation and you feel stuck or you feel frustrated with with something that's going on. You know, getting out and going for a walk somewhere is really helpful.

And I think that exercise and it doesn't have to be running or you know, regular exercise, but you know, for me, gardening is a very therapeutic thing to do. Well.

I remember years back, I was going through some major changes in my life and that's when I ordered I don't remember how many tons of rocks and and barrels and barrels of of dirt and I created this garden in my backyard and it was very therapeutic for me because I just was doing all this physical stuff and it really helped me move move through the stuck nous of my emotions with that so um and you know, breathing.

Breathing is a really powerful thing and part of my practice we do something called Missogi breathing, which which is it's it's not complicated, it's it's just very conscious breathing

that has a bit of movement to it. So it's it's not you know, I know, before I started doing this, I would try breathing practices and I would be you know, you'd forget that you're trying to breathe, but the movement really kind of connects you with a breathing practice and reminds you, yeah, I'm I'm in this rhythm and I'm breathing and I'm moving at the same time. So yeah, movement is really powerful, very powerful, and and that's when

I do training. When I do training and when I speak, you know, I get people up and I engage them in a lot of different ways in terms of of movement, and I you know a lot of times, you know, I'll just actually, while you're sitting there, Eric, and for your listeners, you might just take both of your fist and push them together so that they're they're locked, and you know, and that's something this that we're stuck here.

You know, if we've got two fists going head to head and this is what I call this conflict and we're stuck. And you know, conflict is actually a really great thing and it's where it's where all innovation begins, but it also can be very destructive. And so it really only requires one person to shift and and actually say one person open a palm, and that's where the

spiral comes in and it shifts everything. So I find a lot of times we get locked in with people or locked into situations, and and when we can recognize first that we're locked and I think that's that's really the key thing is is to really recognize when you've got that conflict, when you've got that tension, where do you hold it in your body? What do you feel? How do you recognize that? Because if you're not conscious that you've got that going on, there's not a lot

to do with them. And so when I work with work with people, I have them identify, you know what, you know, how do you know when you've got that stuck nous? You know, is it is it a feeling in your body somewhere in your neck or your stomach, or is it a general feeling of overwhelm or frustration or you know, how do you experience that? And and once you recognize where that stuckness is, there's some really simple things that you can do to get movement with that.

And again, I think of it as a spiral, and most I keto movement is all based upon spirals, so it's rather going head to head. And I I use the analogy um with with general audiences that that you know, it's a difference between using a hammer and a nail and a screw and a screw driver. You know, one thing, I'm I'm beating it up and I've got to have it really it's very intense. I gotta be really on target. And the other way, I have this connection and it's

very stable and it's easy to move. There's a huge difference in my long term result on both of those things. And here's eric with the rest of the interview. You talk about conflict, and you were talking about how you know easy it is in conflict for for two people to get stuck. You also at points talk about how important you know creative tension or destructive tension um you know in the workplace. I always find that to be interesting.

Dynamic is there's got to be that middle ground. If it's too much, if there's too much disagreement, it's done in the wrong way. It's very harmful. But if everybody's just saying the same thing to your point, there's no innovation. And so one of the lines you have that I really like is you say that a difference becomes a conflict when you choose to push against the difference, right and and and that's the absolutely true, and since I've written my book, I've actually expanded on that a little

bit more. And I think of destructive conflict, the difference between destructive and an innovative or creative conflict is really they both have that push, but one one pushes too long or too hard for the people involved with the intention of relate to be right, destroy or do harm. And whereas innovative conflict pushes just right for the people involved and the intention is to engage for positive outcome

and so. And the tricky thing in work in organizations is that people a lot of times will make assumptions around what people are thinking or what they can stand.

And so I think it's really important to really get to know your coworkers, or if you're in management, to really know the people that work for you, because some people can take a whole lot of push and they're fine with it, they don't even notice it, and other people they pale at the slight rays of a tone of voice and so, and is that bad or is that good? You know, it just is what it is. And I think when you can recognize what you're working with and then support people to to feel more comfortable

speaking up, um it's a powerful thing. I remember a long time ago one of my early clients there was a very um it was mostly men and it was a computer company a long time ago, and there were just a couple of women involved, and these guys were they were we create through conflict all the time. We rumble around da da da da. And it was so interesting because I said, that is great. Yet you got

to watch is everybody participating? And this one woman raised her hand and she said, yeah, and when you guys do that, I will never participate, just so you know. And so so it's it's kind of interesting. Um, It's just it's I find working with groups of people just fascinating. It's just really really fascinating. Um, how all those dynamics come together right? And I like that idea of you know, destructive tension is when you know the desire is to

um to be right. You know, that seems to be when a lot of conversation goes wrong as soon as it moves from making a point to the desire to be right. The other thing that I think is interesting about that is how that dynamic can shift in the middle of a conversation, so everybody can start from a place of good intent, but once they start to feel threatened, it's very easy to slide back into that defensive and start pushing back. And that's why you know, facilitating in

those type situations can be so helpful. Oh absolutely, And and it's interesting if you're as I work with companies that really want to be innovative. You know, it's that idea of of I think destructive conflict tends to focus on a position or or you know, some kind of issue, and I say, when you can look at the source of the issue and the vision, you get again, you get movement happening, and you know it's just recently talking

with somebody where they were. You know, people get caught in a solution and then the some of the conflict can be over the what they think the solution is, and they lose sight of what they're really trying to do in the long run, and they get caught at the level of of a one possibility of a solution

where there exists lots of opportunity. So keeping the eye on what is it that we're trying to accomplish here is really an important thing when you're wanting to innovate and create, And even in you know, even in one on one relationships. I mean, if you're married or in an an intimate relationship of any kind, and even with your children, it's we can get locked into these little things, and I think it's really important to remember what's the

bigger picture. You know, what's the bigger picture. Um, you know, I'm gonna have a great relationship. So I'm getting you know, if I'm getting all wound up about this little issue over where to go to dinner or whatever it is, I'm really taking away from what it is I really want in that relationship. Same thing with children. I mean, I can get all caught up into I remember my daughter, one of my daughters, she hated to wear coats, and she always wanted to wear these big t shirts with

you know, with with tights before it was popular. And you know, on one hand, it could be you know, it could be like, you know, I don't really want you to go into school like that, and you need to have a coat. And then I finally discovered, you know, if she's not cold, what's my problem? You know I And so I ended up you know, picking the battle. What's really important. I want her to feel good about

her choices. Now. What's funny is she looks back on pictures back then and she says, why would you let me go out like that? And I Chris, Chris tends to run around in big sweatshirts and tights too a lot. It's kind of embarrassing for me. But like you said, you've got a lot of them do what they're gonna do. I gotta let them do what they're gonna do. And you know, it's like I want, you know, recognizing I wanted her to feel free to express herself. So and

she's doing just fine in life now, right right. So let's talk about the spiral impact the you um, you talk about the power of a spiral UM. You gave a couple of examples, you know, a screw versus in nail and and you know in in In, I ke to a lot of it is you're you move in the direction that your opponents going, so you're sort of spiraling around. UM. So with the spiral impact you you have, I think that let me see if I can explain it simply, and then you tell me if I've got

it right. So there are four quadrants. And when you look at accomplishing something or look at solving the problem or making a decision. The idea is to move through each of those quadrants and and take a look through each of those quadrants about how you could approach the situation. The other thing you say is if you feel stuck with something, then to do the quadrant shift. And those those four quadrants are focused, energy, support, intention, and knowledge.

Did I give a reasonable basic summary? Yes, yes, yes, yeah. And when you think about it, whether you're wanting to just make a decision, resolve a conflict, going on a project, um, get off, get off, stuck, those are all those are the four things you know. I was working with people for fifteen years and conflict resolution and I this actually that model came to me when I was practicing AIKO. It was just like I was thinking, what do people want?

And then I thought, you know, people just want to do what they love and do it with some semblance of ease and grace. I think that's what everyone wants to do. And and then I don't know that that model, I mean, it wasn't exactly like it ended up, but it was in pretty much that format. And see that for me is you know, some of my best work and best thinking happens when I am doing something physical

and I Keto is certainly that way. And and you know, to elaborate a little bit more on those those four quadrants, because you know, the knowledge is, you know, I need to know not I need to have knowledge about myself and my team members. I need to have knowledge about whatever it is that I'm involved in. And and I kind of simplify that down. You know, one of the key things is recognizing that you've got you've got a conflict,

or you've got tension, or you've got a challenge. And then one of the things you do is, you know, turn your statements into questions, acknowledgements or both. And and that's something when you when you think about it, whenever you're stuck or whether you have a conflict, you usually make a lot of statements about it. They will never change. Here he goes again, I'm not very good at this. I've got this problem. Um, I'm scared to do that. So we we make a lot of statements that really

reinforce that stuck nous. And we tend to make statements when we feel when we feel stuck. And so I encourage people to take those statements and turn them into questions. And when you start asking questions, you increase your level of knowledge about whatever it is. So, whether it's about understanding a person's position, whether it's about you know, some widget that you're making and somebody's experience of it, whether

it's a customer service thing. But when I can ask a question, so rather than saying you know, they'll never change, I'll say, you know, I'm curious to see what we can do with this. How will this impact us differently than maybe something else? But it creates an openness. You know, if I'm I'm not very good at this, then it's like, well, what who do I know that is good at this?

And what can I learn from them? But I think that whenever you've got a conflict or you feel stuck, I can say, almost universally, you're usually making some kind of statement about it, and and and so and that that seems so obvious. But most but it's so obvious that it's like we miss that and so so asking questions or acknowledging, And you know acknowledging is you know, just like wow, that this must be difficult, or I can see your you know, this must be frustrating, or

you know whatever that acknowledgement is. Um is is a way of creating that connection. And again with the model of the spiral, it's moving off a face to face and it's moving so I'm looking in the same direction as the person I've got the issue with. So now I'm seeing the world as they see it, and and and and there's it's just really magical what will happen with that? So so the knowledge is an important section.

The other one that you talk about is intention and um I think I understand intention in a basic sense what do I intend to do? But you talk about there being three levels of intention. What are the three levels? Yes, well, I and other people may have different ways of saying this, but I see I have a what I call a big picture intention. So that's something that's like if I'm making a widget, I want to make the best widget in the world, it's it's a really big it's my

big picture. This is my thing. Now what my big picture intention is. I'd like to make spiral impact, a household word that people use when they're struggling. I need to spiral this, um So that's it's a big picture. The other level, another level is the immediate this is the this is my to do list, this is what I gotta do right now, and and so it's it's

those activities. And then the other level is what I call the deeper personal level, and and that is who it is that I choose to be in the world as I'm doing this, and so it's it's a values or purpose based intention. And what I encourage people to do is to think through all three levels, because you want to have those lined up so that they all

are congruent with each other. Because if you know, if if my big picture is having this fabulous work team, and my deeper personal is really a about trust and honor, but in the immediate I'm yelling and screaming at people, I'm I'm missing my mark. And so having those three

things lined up is I find extremely important. And so so if I've got my big picture, which is you know, again maybe it's a high performing work team or a great marriage or whatever it is, and I have I'm really clear on my deeper personal, which my deeper personal that I carried everything I do is is a question is am I honoring myself and others always? That's my thing? And that's so I weigh my action, which is the immediate based upon those things, and and so it helps me,

it guides my behavior. Is what it does to make sure that I'm that I'm on target for what I want to do. Yeah, tell me about focused energy. I think all of us want focused energy. So in the in the spiral impact methodology, what is the what is that referencing? There's three topics that I addressed in that. And the one that I think is that I also I spend a lot of time on when I'm working with groups is the idea of being centered. And it kind of gets back to that that good wolf and

bad wolf? Is am I centered? In my calm? You know a lot of people now are talking about emotional intelligence and mindfulness, and centered is kind of the word in my lineage that we use, which is is a my calm? Do I am? I? Present? Am I? And getting back to the spiral analogy, you know, the tornado and the hurricane have a very calm eye in the middle. And the more defined and more um developed that I is, the more power the storm has. And I really believe

that to be true for people as well. The more calmness, the more defined their calmness is the more power they have in a in a positive way. And so so that's one piece of it, is to really bring that sense of presence and centeredness to to what we're doing. The other parts of that that and I think I probably mentioned before is that you know, what are you what are you bringing in? Because I think about food, I think about breathing, and that type of thing is

is what am I feeding? What am I feeding my body with? And doesn't make me feel better? And and I find a lot of you know, I kind of look at what often happens in organizations, and again I keep going back to organizations because that's primarily where I do my work. But I'm always amazed how organization that's concerned about their employees health and their productivity and they serve donuts for a breakfast meeting and pizza at lunch. And for me, those two food items are recipes for

spaceinus and tiredness. And so do when we eat, do we eat things that make us feel better and more energetic and clearer minded? Or are we are we feeding ourselves in a way that really takes our energy our focus away from it. Same thing with breathing or you know, I work with people a lot on proper breathing, and I think, I really think breathing, good breathing is the

best medicine. And I said to a client today, I think if we could get the entire country to just breathe really well for ten minutes every morning, it could change the world. It could be. The health benefits and the emotional benefits of really good breathing I think are just really really powerful and so and then the other part of that focused energy is really getting getting rest

and getting good sleep. But not only good sleep. But I often think that, UM, when we have a conflict or we're challenged, UM, sometimes we might have depending on our makeup, we we want to rush to a decision or a conclusion, and sometimes we just need to let it rest. And you know, and I find a lot of times people will will have a meeting and they'll think everybody's agreed on something, and then later they you know, they get back together or they hear people talking and

realize that someone isn't in agreement. And I don't think it's like malicious. I think it's what happens is people people let things percolate, let them rest, and then people have some clarity that's different than when they were all together as a group. And so I think letting big decisions, letting um, letting conflict rest is a really good thing. So that's that's those are all the focused energy pieces.

And I I think probably everybody that's listening. I shouldn't make conclusions, but most people I know have experienced where they've gotten read an email that they've received from somebody and they might really upset them for some reason, and and they've hold off. But the next day they read it and it doesn't even say what you thought it said. You know, you let it go for a little bit, and you come back and look at it again and it's like, oh wow, I didn't even say what I

thought it said. And so so letting things rest, I think is a really wise thing to do. Frequently. I agree it's it is. It can be enormously helpful to get a little bit of respective, particularly we're emotionally triggered. Yeah, yeah, because it just there's just something that happens that blinds us there. Yeah, And I mean I think that you know, even can big decisions. I think I kind of go with the philosophy of you know, if it's if it's a big decision. It doesn't have to be made right

this minute. And if it's if it has to be made right this minute, then the answer, the answer is no, because it's it's I think having the space and time to really make sure it's a a good one is important. Rather than it's so much easier to it's so much hard I should say it's so much harder to get out of something than it is to get into something. That that is an incredibly true statement. Um, so we're nearing the end of our time. I want to talk just about the last part of the of the spiral,

which is support. Yeah, well, yeah, you know, I think that's something I and I worry at times. I don't worry, that's not quite right, but you know, we all need support, and and that support really comes in a lot a lot of different ways. And I think a major support are other people. And I noticed, you know, I work by my I work out of a home office by myself, and and I really have to make sure that I connect with people because that's really an important part of support.

And I and I see the work world people working more independently, and I really believe people do need to find ways of being around other people for support. But support can also be other things like journaling, I think is a really powerful thing. Um Reading, you know, your

podcast I find very supportive. I listen to podcasts all the time, and finding ones where I feel like I can get some inspiration and some stimulation of thought is so important to me because I think nothing, nothing fabulous, was ever created by a lone person all by themselves.

And you know that's something I think about. You know, when you think about great innovators now, Steve Jobs certainly comes to mind, and I I love some of the new literature that's coming out about him, particularly later in his life where he wasn't this lone mean wolf going barking orders at everybody. He really was more collaborative in the second time he was at Apple. And and you've

got to have all those you know. The the tricky part of life is is to really be innovative and really bring things to life requires a lot of diverse talents and personalities and skills, and those that diversity also creates a lot of conflict. So um So anyway, having but having the support of all those people is what brings things forth. I got off subject there a little bit, didn't. I No, not really. I mean I think that that support is you know, that is such a I think

I've realized it over the years. I have a tendency to want to be more of a lone wolf, but I've realized over time that it really is in uh with other people that the good things happen in life. Um. Yeah, yeah, I think there can be some really brilliant strokes of insights by yourself, but I really think it's it's then bouncing those off of other people that really make things really amazingly wonderful. So I think it's um, it's yeah, it's all that even Einstein didn't do things all by himself.

He had support groups and and I think you know, and I you know there's an old crazy hair anonymous, Yeah, I think that, Um, you know there's an old quote that I that that I, um, I don't know who. I can't attribute it to anybody, but it's like that's something that's held inside becomes bigger, where something shared diminishes in terms of of what we hold. And again getting back to your the one you feed, it's sometimes we

need to let those wolves out. It's sure that with somebody else so that that we don't let that build inside of us. Yeah. Well, Karen, thanks so much for taking the time. It's been a pleasure talking with you. And I found the book really interested in That approach of spiraling around and and really moving in the direction of your opponent, particularly when it comes to conflict, was really really helpful to me. Great. I am so glad and I am delighted to be a guest on your show.

I appreciate the opportunity. Well, you're welcome, Thank you, Yeah, thank you. Okay, take care, okay, bye bye bye. Many of our regular listeners may know that Eric also does some personal coaching for people who would like a little more of a one on one experience with the one you feed. We thought, rather than Eric explaining what he does again on this episode, we would play you one

of the testimonials from one of his clients. What's great about him with the podcast and with his coaching is I feel like you can be dropped in with no experience, no mindfulness, meditative experience, no even real vocabulary. So he's perfect for the kind of everyday person that just wants to explore this stuff, and he makes it so that it's not so woo woo, you know what I mean,

Like he just keeps it real. You can learn more about Karen Valencic and this podcast at one you feed dot net slash Karen