Josh Shipp

Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,

and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest today is Josh ship a k A. The Teen Whisperer. Josh is a former at risk foster kid turned teen advocate His TV series Teen Trouble on A and E Lifetime documented his work with teens in crisis. He is the author of The Teen's Guide to World Domination and helps adults understand teens and

teens understand themselves. Josh has spoken at universities such as Harvard, Stanford, m I T, and U C l A, and has contributed to Good Morning America, oprah MTV, CNN, The New York Times, and many other media outlets. Here's the interview. Hi, Josh, welcome to the show. Hey Eric, I'm glad to have you on. I first got introduced to you and your work.

I have teenage boys, so I came across you and was really inspired by the work that you do with teens, and I got interested in that and as that kind of went on, I realized that the things you were saying, we're really applicable to anybody trying to live a better life. So I'm I'm excited to explore some of those things with you. Yeah, looking forward to chatting about anything and everything.

So our show is uh as you know, the one you feed, and it's based on the parable of two Wolves, where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson, and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second.

He says, well, Grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in

life and in the work that you do. I love that parable, and I heard it for the first time a couple of years ago, and even prior to that, it's something that I think about quite a bit because for me, I know, left to myself, left unchecked, that I will just naturally gravitate towards even though it's embarrassing to say, and I wish this wasn't true, I will gravitate towards selfishness, um self centeredness, thinking about what's only best for me, what what is uh sort of more

ideal in the moment instead of long term, and all these things that would have sort of nice consequences in the short term, but detrimental consequences in the long term. So for me, when I think about that that good good wolf idea, UM, I really lean into that it's not just enough to want to feed the good wolf.

I mean, of course none of us would say that we want to you know, mess up our lives or mess up our relationships or not sort of um, optimize whatever it is in our life that's important to us. But for me, I think of the importance of having a strategy around how is it that I'm going to

feed that good wolf? What sort of checks and balances, um, am I going to have in my life to make sure that on the days that I don't feel like feeding the good wolf, which which are frequent, which are often, which happened quite a bit, how even on those days, am I going to have checks and balances and people that I've placed in my life and given them the authority to remind me of what I claimed I wanted to do when I was thinking clearly and in a

good place. So that when those inevitable bad times come and I mistake, which I do often, and I mistake the bad wolf for the good wolf, that uh, you know that I'll be that someone or something or some discipline or some habit or structure will sort of turned

me back towards that good Wolf. There were a lot of great things that you said in there, and I'm interested in a question, so I'm going to just recap your back story really fast, and this will be a way too short version, but for folks who are interested there. You know, Josh is out a lot of places on the Internet and you can hear this, But essentially your

backstory is you were abandoned at birth by your mother. UM, you went through a series of foster homes kind of in and out of trouble, until you finally, in your later teens landed with a family that, um, you know, was was kind of instrumental in helping you turn your life around. And in the beginning of where you're just talking, you mentioned that you have issues with feeding the good Wolf, like that you your mind goes to a default place

of where you maybe don't make the best decisions. And I'm kind of curious, do you think that that is a universal human can asuan? Do you think that is a result of, you know, kind of a challenging childhood. I'm just always fascinated by by people's opinions on that. Well, to be honest, I think it's a little bit of both. I think that that all of us can tend to lean towards um our own best interest, you know, being selfish,

self centered, these sorts of things. UM. You know, I think all of us can can sort of lean towards that if we're again not unchecked, if you know, if things get stressful, if things get difficult, I think that all of us can lean towards that. But also because of you know, my specific personality, UM challenges growing up, strengths and weaknesses. The strength thing has been fascinating because you would think, okay, my weakness is I have to

safeguard against those. But actually sometimes our strengths, left unchecked, UM, can become a weakness. So I think some of the things that I have to guard against are very very universal. But I think some of the things are specific to me. Whereas you know, it might be fine for I'll give

you a very specific example, so we're not just speaking vaguely. UM. I have to all right, So, because I was left by my parents, one of the sort of fallouts of that, be it for good or bad, is that I have an incredible drive to to sort of prove myself now. In my sessions with my therapist, he would sort of say, you know, this is you trying to prove to your mother or to your parents that that you're worthwhile, that

you're worth keeping, that you're valuable. Um. And so the downside of that can be that this um sort of drive that I have, if left unchecked, would wander into workaholism. I'm married now, I'm a parent now, and so I could just sort of block out everything for the sake of trying to achieve something. And you know, I could mask it in I'm providing for my family, or I'm an ambitious individual, or I'm an entrepreneur, so I have to have insanely strict boundaries around my working hours. So

I have very strict hours that I work. When I'm done with that work, I give my my wife my laptop. She locks it away from me. Um. This is all true. If if she was here now, you could ask her and she would back it up. My cell phone. I have an iPhone, but it's so dumb because it's basically just a over expensive Like all I can do is place calls and text. I can't email, like I can't YouTube. I can't Facebook tweet. I mean nothing. Now, you know, some people, probably most people don't need to go to

that extreme. But for me, not only is it a good idea, but ultimately it's a must. Um. I remember reading a book by Dr Henry Cloud, and he said, where your maturity is lacking, you have to place external structures. So you know, I could, I could hope and wish and think and pray and dream that I would, that I would have good structures or or excuse me, that I could sort of limit myself. And and some days I could, and probably most days I could. But it's not the some days and the most days that I'm

worried about. It's those days where I'm feeling vulnerable and and so I it's it's harder to leave that checked or to leave that uh in a spot where I wanted to be. Yeah, And I think the other thing to that is even the days that it's not necessarily a problem, as in you can overcome it, you know, at least for me with those things in my life that you know, I might lack maturity and in need structure.

That takes a It takes energy, It takes something out of me to be in that resist mode to some degree. And so the less of that, you know, the more the less of that I'm faced with, the more you know, power and energy I have to bring to other parts of my life. Yeah, I love that. I love Yeah. It's a really interesting way to think about it. Um. And for me, it's actually quite freeing to place you know, a a structure or a person and give them the

authority to kind of hold that line for me. So you know, like you said, I don't have to think about I don't have to sort of muster up the courage or the or the energy to do such. But but setting it up, um, you know, setting up that structure, be it a person or be at some sort of work around like you know, stripping email from your phone

or something. The setting up of that, I think is the massive barrier because, um, you know, it's inconvenient, and in those moments of inconvenience, you will begin to minimize

how serious the issue is. Um. You know, it's inconvenient to to go to someone and sort of admit a flaw or a fault and say I need you to text me every day at you know, there's certain time and ask me if I've done this thing that while I'm thinking clearly I want to be committed to, there's just a lot of inconveniences, um, and a lot of hurdles and a lot of opportunities for your mind to to turn on you and begin to sort of justify and say, no, it's not you know, it's not that

big of a deal, and you're you're doing okay right now, and you can handle it in most days. But I think if if we can get over that, and I think when you have you know that that moment of clarity where you're like, man, this is a structure I need to place into my life. To me, the further down the court you can move the ball that day or even that hour before you chicken out or justify or excuse or whatever, which we all do. Trust me,

I'm throwing myself under the bus here as well. Um, the more likely you are to actually set up that structure and then actually begin to sort of benefit from the result of that structure. You bring up a really interesting point there, which I'm always interested in, is that, for better or worse, a lot of us are catalyzed into action by some degree of dissatisfaction or pain, which is you know some of us are some of us need more of that than others, but but that tends

to be one of the primary motivators. And you mentioned that that phenomenon of when I get a little bit further away from that, then suddenly that sting of that that pain goes away, and I start thinking, well, maybe I don't need these things, or do you have any thoughts on how when we we start getting into that perspective, to stay on the track that we decided it at some previous point was important because that is a really tricky thing, whether you're talking about something like recovery from

drug addiction or you're talking about losing weight. I mean that that that dynamic plays out. Yeah, awesome question. That's why I love your podcast. UM. To me, I think you have to ahead of time, strip strip away your authority and strip away your ability to make a different decision. So, you know, the the laptop thing, giving it to my wife here, you know, I'm gonna end my work day

at this time, lock it away from me. I had to be very intentional in that day of thinking clearly, um, and and truth be told, my motivation for that decision was based off a little bit of bad and a little bit of good, like certain days where I was overworking and exhausted and not being there for my family

and kind of there physically but but gone emotionally. And some good days where I had boundaries where I shut it down at a specific time and you know, really took a moment and then fully engage in my family.

But I had to specifically say to Sarah, listen, I'm going to come to you from time to time with look, I speak for a living, I'm gonna come to you with persuasive, dynamic, convincing arguments and regardless of how inspirational or persuasive or whatever kind of tweetable phrase I come up with, or whatever garbage like do not trust me, then trust me? Now? You know, trust me today, Like this is a problem, this is something I need to

get in check, this is something I need help with. Uh, you know, maybe a year from now we can have a conversation of of you know, a little bit gentle or boundary, but certainly not any time before them. And again, all this stuff is inconvenient, which is why most people want a certain result in their life. But most people

don't get it. It's not because they lack earnestness. It's not because when they say I want to better relationship, or I want better boundaries with my work or you know whatever, with my health, whatever, it's not that they don't mean it. It's not that they're not genuine. It's not that they're not earnest or whatever in that desire.

It's that we are unwilling to set up those sort of those boundaries, that that that strictness, and that um just all that ickiness that comes from committing and setting yourself up to something that deep down, I don't think any of us want to be set up to. I think we'd rather be able to. I mean, it's not the American dream to do whatever you want whenever you want, and have all the money and freedom and energy and

time to do such. But uh, you know, I think if we were really given that, UM, at least for me, that would just lead to destruction. Oh yeah, that idea that if I had nothing to do and could do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted is damn near killed me UM in the past. It's it's not a format

that that work swell for me. Going back to what you said there, I thought there was something really interesting because it was another question I had for you, and you you touched on it by saying, well, you know what, my motivation is a little bit of pain, right, and then the fact that it's sort of good, And I think that, you know, ideally, that's the way that at

least for me, when there's been success. It started out as this thing was painful, and then eventually the reason I kept doing it was because I can't remember the pain that well. I kept doing it because what I was getting out of it was enough. And you've got a phrase I've heard you say that it's not enough to say no to things. You also have to know what to say yes to. And I think that's, you know, kind of on that same theme. Yeah, And I really

see this in my work with at risk youth. It's like, you know, it's it's clear they need to say no to drugs or no to you know, whatever it is that they're doing and involved in that's sort of leading them down a bad road. But but you're right, that's that's not just enough. I mean, it's not you know, because drugs, you know, the drugs are fun for an hour or for a period of time or whatever. Um, you know, anyone who would be honest with themselves would go, yeah, okay,

I get that, but what is it leading to? Long terms? So? Uh, you know, I think we can. I think no is only motivating for a short period of time, you know, you know, kind of getting away from that pain is only motivating for a short period of time. But what is it gonna actually give me long term? What does

the benefit going to be long term? And I and I think you've got to be as important as this is, I think you also have to be thinking soberly and and clearly about how long you should expect before that positive shows up. UM. Let me give you an example. When I was in the foster homes and bouncing bouncing around in the foster homes and really sort of oppositional

and defiant and this and that. UM, every social a worker and foster parent I had sort of their solution was we need to get this kid counseling, which, you know what, they were right, but but what I wasn't

prepped with UM entering into counseling was this. You know, your first five or six or seven or ten sessions, you're going to leave feeling worse than when you entered that counselor's office, and so when that would inevitably happen, I would think, oh crap, it's not working, Like, you know, the counselor must not be a fit or I don't really need to sit in there and talk about my childhood and do the Kumbaya thing. You know, this isn't working.

Versus realizing that you know that that pain, that discomfort that you know, all of that is actually a sign of growth, just like going to the gym if you were working out, you know that soreness, that discomfort, those sorts of things are are actually a sign of growth.

So I think if we can also try to be realistic or ask someone who's been down the road of setting up boundaries or getting counseling or or whatever difficult thing you're going to have to thrust yourself into to grow, Hey, at what point should I begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel? At what point should

I begin to expect some sort of result? And then based on that answer, um and for me, most of the answers I eventually heard when I was fifteen and started to slowly get my stuff together was Hey, you know what Josh ten Sessions are probably gonna be terrible and you're gonna hate him. Um. But but after that it should get a little bit better. So I could I could at least sort of bribe myself into or somehow cajole myself into thinking, all right, the first ten

are gonna suck, like, just hang in there. And then if after session eleven or twelve it still seems terrible, now you have permission to walk away. Now you have permission to try to go find another counselor now you have permission to maybe begin to debate whether or not counseling is for you. But but you do not have that authority sessions one to tend. Yeah, I mean, I think that's such an important point. I was just on somebody else's podcast recently and talking about the same thing.

We were talking about recovery from alcohol and drugs, and I just said, you know, if there was one thing I could tell people out there who were wrestling with that is that that process of getting sober is awful. So you can't think that that's what you're you know, you can't compare that. You can't think this is what sobriety is, and it's awful. So I'm not going to bother because there's just a transition period that's really bad and you've got to get on the other side of

that to see what this thing really is. Like. You say that you have to second guess your initial emotional reaction because there are ghosts in your past, and I think that's interesting because I agree with that. I have to too, But there's so much going around now about UM. You know, our our intuition is always right, always trust your gut, and I'm just kind of curious your thoughts on that. Yeah, So to be very frank with you, and I've never quite discussed it in this way publicly.

But for me, eventually, when I was I think nineteen or so, I started going to church and Christianity religion kind of became, uh an important part of my life. It's not, you know, I'm not going out there preaching or doing those sorts of things or trying to influence kids in that way. But but for me personally, UM,

it's something that matters to me. It's something that's important and earnest to me, and it's something that's been beneficial for my life, UM and my family and part of what I've learned through my faith, And part of what my faith teaches is that sort of you know, we are again left to ourselves sort of you know, quote sinful meaning we you know, we kind of want to do the thing that feels good but is bad for us.

So I think that is certainly informed my thinking around this idea, which is not to trust my gut or to trust my heart or or these sorts of things that might be thrown around, um, but rather to guard my heart, to second guess my my motivation or my intent for doing something, and really question and if it's serious enough, ask others who really know me, meaning the good side of me and the bad side of me, Like, hey, does Dore's my motivation for doing this thing seemed pure?

Is there something off here? Does something smell fishy about this situation? Based on my strengths and weakness? Is the good of me and and the bad of me? So, you know, I think partly my faith, but also partly um, you know, having friends who you know, everything is about just a feeling like it it felt right, or the situation seemed right, or these sorts of things, um, you know, for for me, that's that's just not good enough. Wishful

thinking is not a strategy. You know. I I may wish and hope that I would have pure, intense um, and most of the time I do, but but sometimes I don't. And you know, I would wish that I would always want to be selfless and serve my family and and put my wife and my kid's best interest at heart. Uh, But I know, honestly, as much as I wish this wasn't true, that's not always the case.

So for for me, I would I would rather guard and question sort of my motives, my heart, my intent, my feelings, and get some feedback there, and then if everything seems to check out, if everything seems to be clear and level headed, then indeed perceive. But uh, you know, I want to pump the brakes a little bit more before I step on the gas. Yeah. And I think different people fall, you know, in different places on that spectrum.

But for me, that's certainly has been the case. Is that you know, I need to be I need to give these things a little bit, a lot of things consideration, because kind of just following my best ideas at certain points in the past has been very destructive. Now it's not nearly as destructive as it used to. Be um,

but they're still there. And it made me think of something else that we interviewed a gentleman recently the pod The episode may or may not be out when listeners hear this, but he said something He's very focused on behavior. He's very much about like, hey, feel what you're feeling, Acknowledge it, and then take whatever the next right action is, which I think a lot you know, I think aligns very closely with a lot of things that that you're saying.

But he said something that really struck me, and he said, when our behavior is not in control, we can't trust our feelings. And that really hit me because you know, at certain points in my past, a stray feeling could

lead me, you know, way out into the wilderness. Right And and now that I'm a little bit like I've got some degree of ability to you know, I've got self control to some degree or whatever the word you want to use for that is, I think I can start to be a little bit more open about exploring how I feel instead of trying to tamp those down just out of fear. Yeah. I love that, And to me, it would raise the question of when your feelings are out of control, Um, how are you going to know?

I mean, is it just is it just relying on you sort of taking your own sort of temperature and being able to recognize it quick enough, or do you have someone in your life who can call you on it and say, yeah, things seem off here? Um, you know what's going on? And this is an interesting thing that happens, you know now in my work with what I do. And you know, I'm a successful entrepreneur and have experienced sort of you know, success in my in

my niche industry. There's this interesting thing that happens professionally when you become successful, regardless of your field or your niche or whatever success means. But success can often bring sort of autonomy, meaning you know, less people can call you on it. There's less checks and balances for your

decisions and and for your behavior. And I think you have to intentionally, um build in a group of people or a person or two or someone who can call you on your crap and call you um out when your behaviors offer, your emotions are off, your decisions are off um or you're too hard, are sure you're not decisive enough, or these sorts of things. Uh. Otherwise, you know, I feel like you could get pretty pretty far off

and not even be aware of it. You know, when I think back to being a foster kid, one of the saddest things that I recall is not the abuse, or the not having biological parents or or whatever is weird. Does it sounds You kind of get over that pretty quickly because it's just normal to you. But the saddest thing I recall is thinking that my behavior was a hundred percent justified, healthy and fine, um, And it wasn't like I was trying to to to lie to myself.

I genuinely believed it. I genuinely believed these social workers or these foster parents who are trying to say, look, you're a good kid, but you need help. I thought they were naive. I thought they were crazy. I thought I have my stuff together. They need to get their stuff together. What's wrong with them? So, you know, I

think sometimes we can deceive ourselves into a position. And so whether it be out of isolating through success or isolating out of fear of allowing those voices in your life and intentionally inviting them in and giving people um permission. And you you have to give people permission, You have to say Listen, I want you to make me cry from time to time. Like, if you're not being that harsh, you're not trying. And most other people in my life are just gonna be polite and kind and oh yeah,

good job and blah blah blah. But but that's not what I need. That's not what I need from you. I can I can get that in a hundred other places. But but what's rare is you know someone who will tell you straight up, uh, you know, I'm concerned about this. You know you might want to second guess this, you might want to look at this a little closer. Uh, these sorts of things. I think all of us need that sort of ambassador in our lives so we so we know when we're off or we know when we're not.

I agree that that's so important. And what I found interesting is haven't spent a lot of my adult life, um in recovery culture where that's kind of a common thing, right, That's that's what being a friend means, um stepping outside of that into more into just say, you know, regular culture. There's a lot. What I've realized is that permission piece

is a big part of it. Like, particularly for me when someone else I have to find out, like, what is the communication I'm having with someone when they're communicating with me? What are they looking for here? Because if they haven't given me permission for that, boy, I get myself in all kinds of trouble trying to tell them right, like, here's what I see. I mean, my motive is that

I really want to be helpful. But um, I think that, and I think that if we haven't given somebody permission, then when someone does that to us, it's the almost the only inevitable response is to be somewhat defensive. And that's why I think to your point, it's so good to say to certain people, hey, I really want you to do that, and then we've kind of opened that door and we can listen to them versus someone who we haven't given that permission to. Oh dude, I hear you.

I have. I have realized the hard way, the painful way, that the only people I give advice to our people that ask for it. Otherwise you're wasting both individuals times. Um, you know you can. You can want someone to change, you can want someone to improve, you can you can want that all day long, but until they want that from themselves, and you know, they ask the question or or give you permission or say, hey, what do you

think of the situation? Be honest with me. Now you have the authority, Now you have permission, and your words are actually going to be useful and helpful instead of you just you know, being the boy who cried wolf and spouting off great information but no one's listening, right. And I think the other piece of that is that balance of when when does someone including myself, like when am I When do I need somebody to sort of hear what I'm saying and understand? And when do I

need someone to you know, help me course correct? And maybe sometimes it's you know, it's both. First it's here and understand and then and then the course correct piece. But I'm always interested in that, I seem to It seems to be the paradox is that that draw me draw my interest in life. And the one that I explore a lot on the show is you know, you have a feeling, and we tend to go one of

two ways with that. One is we just indulge it and we wallow in it and we you know, we roll around in it, or the other is we can go to the other extreme and just do whatever we can and make that feeling go away. And some of those things are overtly destructive, right like I'm going to just go get hammered. That's one way to make it go away. But as you described, you could be very productive and work very hard and make that feeling go away. And I'm always interest it in how people find that

balance with themselves between that indulging and that repressing. M hmm, yeah, I mean this this reminds me a lot of actually, uh you know, a challenge that I've that I've had in my in my marriage because my what I do for a living, just the way I think is all right, here's a problem, let's figure out a solution. Here is sort of a situation. Okay, what tactically can be done? Um, you know. But but sometimes my wife is just like, I don't I don't need advice. I don't want you to

to solve it for me. I just want to be heard. Okay, Yes, I see, all right, I just I just need I need to listen and then I you know, perhaps later with that ideally, then um, you know, some sort of action or something stems from that. Yeah, and I you know what I find that I wrestle with is UM. I won't name whether what relationships in my life it's a part of because I'd like to keep those relationships.

But UM is when that that seems to be a repeated pattern and I sit there and I watch, like what appears to be self inflicted pain, and then I sit and I listen and I and I hear it and I'm trying to it's and and some of that is a judgment, but I know I wrestle with that where I'm like, you know, I know you just want me to listen, but I just I get I get hung up on that sometimes where I want to you know, it's just hard to watch people you care about repeat

the same sort of painful patterns, and if they're pretty minor, but it's this, it's this, you know, the self inflicted wounds. I relate to that. And you know, talk about a clear example of someone calling me out on something. Is that, UM. You know a buddy of mine that I give permission to to call me out on stuff. He said, Josh, you have this, you have this broken thinking that that there are basically two options that you can either help someone UM, or that you can sort of enable someone

and you think those are the only two options. So so, you know, I believe that, you know, just hearing someone out is sort of enabling. Like, oh that's interesting. Yeah, you did the same thing over and over and over and over and you still got that negative results. Oh interesting. Wow, I'm really surprised, you know, so I view it as either like that, like enabling and just being a part of the problem, or that it's like going to attack it and hold you accountable and and harsh and let's

get up in its face and this and that. Um. So I'm I'm really having to learn kind of I guess the gray areas of life of you know, how can you without compromising either, how can you really sort of hear someone out, try to understand what they're feeling or whatever that's in their mind. No, none of us are stupid that in their mind is justifying the behavior

or excusing it or allowing it or whatever. Um, and then just ask questions to find out whether or not they're ready to get on with sort of the the solving of it. And you know, okay, well, would you like to hear other people have dealt with that? Or you know, would you like to hear this interesting thing that I've read about someone else who went through that same sort of thing, um, And if they're not there

then then very well. But that's it's been an interesting sort of struggle for me, um, as a guy who you know, had a hard life, went through, you know, challenges made and made enough of my own challenges to still have that compassion peace Because to me, it's just like, you know, if I hear a SOB story, it's like, suck it up. I was a foster kid who cares. Let's deal with this, you know. So so I I, wrongly or rightly have little compassion for sort of the

the whining component. But I'm beginning, though slowly, to see, you know, sometimes that that whining or really more accurately, you know, sort of expressing it, talking it out, getting this stuff off your chest. Um, I guess can be a part of the process. I don't feel like I really yet have arrived at believing this, but I know it's true, and it's something I'm I'm trying to grow in and and move towards myself. Yeah, well I will, um, I will give you back one of your own phrases

in in uh with that because I agree. I wrestle with everything you just talked about. But when you said that, you were talking about talking it out, and I realized that one of your phrases that I like is what you don't talk out, you act out. Mm hmm yep. Yeah, that's so true. And you know you see it with with you know, friends, loved ones, you know, kids I work with. You know, these are these are folks that are typically you know, uh, you know, decent, good human beings, um,

you know. And I see this in my own life.

It's like, I could, you know, I have something stressful happen in my business or um it was someone I work with or whatever, and I haven't quite resolved it, and the ego side of me doesn't want to talk it out with my wife or whatever, so you know, it's easier for me to sort of take it out on her or maybe I feel out of control, was something at work, and so I try to control this situation with my family instead of Okay, what's really going on here, Let me sort of talk through this, get

this off my chest, so it's not sort of bubbling up in in other ways. I mean, you definitely see that with kids either neither flip in or flip out. You know, they just sort of take it out on everyone, or they talked to no one about it, which neither is good, neither is ideal, and uh particularly flipping in and talking to no one about it. Then not only do you have a problem, which we all do, not only do you have challenges you're dealing with which we

all do, but but no one knows. And it's sort of the secret silent thing eating away at you, uh, that that you're not only not giving other people permission to help with, but sort of not giving yourself permission

to face. When you were just talking about that, you know, sort of sharing what's happening with your family or made me think of one of the challenges I have with that is if you know, at least for me, I've been thinking about these these you know, again, I just use the word personal development or whatever ideas for so long that I usually feel like I know what the answer is in my head, and so then I just don't.

I go, what am I got? You know, I'm gonna go tell somebody, So what are they gonna They're gonna tell me what I already know? Like, what's the point and I'm amazed again and again by two things. One is how often just connecting with another person around it helps, you know, regardless of even if you know they don't have something a particular piece of advice. So I'm kind

of a used it at how often that helps. And I'm amazed at how hard it is for me to ever learn that lesson consistently with without having to relearn it, Like after I sit on it for a month and I go, maybe I should, you know, It's just it's amazing. I feel like we as humans have sort of good behavior amnesia. Uh. You know, if if a forty eight hour period has passed when you you know, got up early and got your day started for the kids, got up or exercise first thing, or you know, talked out

an issue or whatever. I feel like once four to eight hours passes, you just completely forget that was a good idea, there was any benefit from it, any of that sort of thing. So, uh, that sucks. I really have no solution for it. But I just noticed that I've just said probably hundreds of times in my life, like I don't know why I still have to wrestle with exercise because it is one of those things that every single time is a very positive thing for me

and I immediately feel better. And yet it is still what you'd think something that that was that good, that had that many benefits with no no downside, I would consume it like a drug. And I know, you know, people you can get to that point, but it's still for me one of those things that I have to sort of gently push myself to do. Mm hmm, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's almost like we need a almost like some sort of journal or some sort of log that we can

remind ourselves of, like, no, no, this this work. You'll be You'll be glad that you did this. I've heard you say that. You know, so we we can look in our lives and we could look out there and you know, so say somebody who says, boy, I would love to inspire young people, and they look out and they see Josh Shipp right, and they go, that's what I want, you know, that's what I want to do. Um. But what you what I've heard you say, is don't go get training an accountability on how to be Josh Ship.

Go get training an accountability on the first three steps you need to take along that long journey because obviously, you know, to get to the point you've gotten in your career has taken you know, probably well over a decade, you know. So I just thought that was an interesting perspective to to be looking at. What I need help on is these things that are right in front of me that almost seem mundane. Yeah, I mean, it definitely

takes ten years to become an overnight success. And it's a challenge I faced early on, is that I would look out on the landscape and identify a mentor two or someone I looked up to, you know, a zig Ziggler or what have you, and be like, Okay, they're sort of a proven entity, a proven model. So therefore success can can only mean zig Ziggler, you know, a success can only mean insert the name of your mentor

or your hero or your role model. Um. And you know, I think instinctively we know like, okay, I don't want to be a cookie cutter that's not going to be as valuable or interesting or compelling or those sorts of things. But I think there's a sort of deeper fear component happening of just like they're proven, we're not um. You know, they're tested and proven and we're not yet. And so I think two things. I think number one, you have to um stay ambitious, but also be fine with crappy

first drafts. Because anything in life, my opinion, that ends up being great, starts as a crappy first draft. And you just have to be willing to swallow your pride, your ego and go through the painful process of being a crappy first draft. It doesn't mean that you're that your intention is crappy, or that your motivation is crappy,

or that your earnestness is crappy. It just means probably you have a very fine taste in what in what you should be, and you're not yet going to be there because because being there is not given to a select few, it's earned through hours and hours of of ego crushing, um fine tuning and and and improvement. And then the second point is, yeah, don't you know use the one day I want to be Josh Ship or

zig Zigul or whoever. You know, that's your carrot. That's the thing you can fantasize about when it gets really really difficult, but it's not going to help you move the needle immediately. What helps you move them needle immediately is not doing what I'm doing now, but doing what I did ten years ago. What are those initial first steps? What are the what are those first steps? And and and only get your training and accountability around those first

few steps. Otherwise step ten or a hundred or one thousand, you're never even going to get the chance to take. Yeah, I think that's such great advice. It's really easy to

just get lost in what to do? You know, what what is the path to becoming you know, let's just say your motivational speaker as you think you could find a thousand different things on the internet about doing that and all and but but a lot of it is is just like you said, what what are the first couple of things that I can do right where I'm at? And I just believe so much in that sort of start right where you are right now, and you can

take steps in whatever direction you want. I'm always amazed by what a series of what seemed like inconsequential small

steps look like over a period of time. It's remarkable. Yeah, the Internet is tricky because it can bring mentors very close to you, but there can also be sort of a deep dive into mentor porn where you're just like constantly looking up other speakers or other coffee shop owners or other graphic artists, and you're just comparing, and you're feeling worse and worse about yourself as a human being and an artist and this and that, and you're just

constantly spending your days comparing or judging or getting mad at them, or you know, thinking that if if they reply to your email, that's going to make your career or whatever, instead of like, no, let me figure out what my you know, first couple of steps are and get about the difficult, challenging, frustrating work of doing those. Yeah, that's funny mentor poor, that's good, but I I yeah, you're absolutely right, that's that. There is a lot of that, um.

And if it's not being comparing, ourselves are being frustrated. It is um you know, spending our time dreaming of what it would be like to be there instead of you know, doing the doing the work we like you said that we need to do kind of right here today. And by the way, there is the exact same thing as here. I mean right now, I am fit, you know, ten years later and I'm a success, and here I am on your podcast and blah blah blah, whoop do you do? But ten years later, I, you know, new levels,

new devils, Like, there are things I'm overwhelmed by. There are things I I have no idea how to handle, and I'm having to seek out mentors and training an accountability around. Um. You know, So don't kid yourself and thinking that you know, one day when you reach a promised land, that it's just going to be easy and and all we is fun and always you know, you know, completely void of training and accountability and and those sorts of things. Uh, when you reach that there, all of

that is going to be there as well. So you know, when you're starting, you have the opportunity to sort of train those muscles, train that humility of going out and getting training or help or coaching or or support or therapy or whatever the case may be, um to overcome those current hurdles, because the hurdles are always going to be there as you continue to grow in your influence. Yeah, I think there's a deep fantasy in a lot of us that we will reach a level where everything will

be easy. Life will just be easy and will always be happy. And I just don't think that's the way, by and large, were designed. I don't think. I just don't. I don't think that exists, and yet we set ourselves up to think that when we get there, that will happen. And so it's always that tricky balance for me of I'm driving, I'm growing, um, I want to go to these different places, and yet I also know how to be completely appreciative and happy with right where I'm at today.

Because if we don't have that skill, it doesn't matter what level we get to, we won't enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah, And we say we want that life that's easy and no stress and no challenges, but I don't really, I don't really think we would. I agree, I certainly think I would be, you know, bored out of my mind and probably get into all kinds of trouble exactly. All right, Josh, Well, thanks so much. This has been a really fun conversation. I've been looking forward to talking to you for a while,

so I'm glad we got to do this. Yep, cool man, all right, Thanks Josh, alright, take care, Okay, Spite. You can learn more about Josh and this podcast at one you feed dot net slash Josh