Josh Johnson on Humor and Healing

you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life

worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is comedian Josh Johnson. In addition to stand up, he's an Emmy nominated writer and is currently a writer on the Daily Show with Trevor Noah and a former writer and performer on the Tonight Show starring Jimmy Fallon.

Josh was named New York's Funniest at New York Comedy Festival in two thousand eighteen, and his story cat Fishing the KKK has amassed over eight million hits on YouTube. Hi Josh, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me pleasure to have you on. Let's start, like we always do, with a parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two

wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather. He says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says that the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life

and in the work that you do. I think it's very important that even though the parable is like a beautiful analogy of the duality with people, that it's not so simple as the one that you're starving, so the one that you're not feeding doesn't necessarily go away. And it's very easy for us to look at an individual that's only feeding, you know, one wolf per se, and think that that's all there is to them, when really, you know, maybe the other wolf is starving, but it's

not exactly dead or gone or anything. And I think that at any time people can switch over. Whether whether we think that's good or bad is in the eye of the beholder, I guess, But I do think that it's a reminder that there's a duality to being human, and there's also like a d qality to intention, you know, because sometimes you can be feeding one and not intending to really be starving the other. I like that a lot.

That made me think, as you were saying that, of like looking at other people and almost believing that they're just bad versus realizing like, well, there's a good wolf in there, and your point of intention that most people who a lot of us might look at and well that's bad. That person's intentions still might be very good. It's just what's your perspective, what's your position? Yeah, And I think that there's our line to draw on good

and bad. I think that most decisions either make you happy or unhappy, and make other people happy or unhappy. And so I think that even in most of the things that we would consider bad or of of like a more negative quality, it's mainly because they lead to unhappiness and unhappy decisions. It is not necessarily because the thing in and of its essence is bad, if that makes sense, right, right. I'm just often struck by how underneath everything we're all trying to be happy, and that's

what everybody's trying to do. It's that we differ on strategy, you know, we differ on what makes happiness for us or for other people, But underneath it, if you look at most people, again can debate good and bad, how fixed they are versus how relative they are, but underneath it, everybody's trying to be happy. And it's just that with a lot of people I look at and I go, that is a terrible strategy. Yeah, And I mean there's also something to be said for like that instant gravigation

that we've all been conditioned to addiction to. You know, I think that there are a lot of things short term to make you very happy or pleasurable and are fun. And then you know, upon further inspection, you look at the grand scheme of things, you look at the entire playbook laid out, and you see that this is actually a terrible idea, right exactly. Yeah, you're a comedian. So I think the place I'd like to start this conversation is really looking at how we use laughter as a

coping mechanisms. What are the ways that we can use humor? You know, I often say that I think that levity should be listed is one of the virtues in life. That levity is a spiritual virtue. So let's talk about

the role of humor as a coping mechanism. When you laugh, and especially when it's coming from a genuine place, um you feel no pain, you know, like like the the act of taking something in that either someone said or did or happen and and laughing at it and the general and genuine joy that you get from that thing is like so akin to like our nature and what's important about being human. And I think that it's something that is not just to like cope as a band aid.

It's something that can change your outlook if you let it. One of the reasons that there are subjects that people think are too precious or too sacred to laugh about is because they want to keep the nearer of Austin Ay. I don't know if that would be the right way to word it, but they want to keep this this general veil and idea preserved about what the thing is, how important it is, and how you're supposed to look at it. And when you laugh at something, you strip

it of its power to a certain degree. And I don't think that we as people should be in a place where ideas, institutions and people have power over us as individuals. And I think that by making fun of things, especially when it comes from a place, that brings it down to earth and makes it human, not just like

poking fun to make fun and to be malicious. I think that the laughter and the joy and the camaraderie you feel with the other people laughing breathe a certain change in mindset that I think makes it easier to not just cope, but to move on from trauma. So do you think that laughter is not just a coping

mechanism but actually a healing method. I think that there are certain ways that you can look at the world that are very uh, you know, pessimistic, sad or optimistic and uplifting, and those mindsets they almost program your responses

before you have them. So I think that by having, like you said, like a layer of levity, that virtue of levity, I think that you're automatically bringing yourself into situations that are going to make it easier for you to get through because of your outlook and because of the way that you approach things. Most of what happens

in the world is just stimulus. It's it's something that to a certain degree, sociopaths look at the world as like, I don't know why I would be happy about this or sad about this or whatever, and we see it as a very negative thing because we see sociopathic people as like having an extreme chance of doing bad because they don't have any emotions about what would happen in

the outcome doesn't matter to them. But when you pay close attention to you know, like Zen literature, it almost comes from the act place, but not from a perspective of telling people what to do and you should just shouldn't care because what's happening is going to happen. It's more telling people the way to cope is that you're not trying to cope. You're not trying to cope with

what happens, because everything that happens is life. You know, to cope would almost mean that I am supposed to be in a consistent, constant state of bliss and happiness, and anything that interrupts that is bad and should be avoided. And so I have to learn how to cope with the bad things to get me back to the good place, because that's where I'm supposed to be all the time. And truthfully, life is like an ocean and you're in a boat and you're going up and down and you're

getting tossed around and everything. And if life was on land in that scenario and that analogy, and then you got tossed by ways, yes, that would be insane. That would be terrible, and you need to figure out a way to cope. But because your life is as tumultuous as it's going to be, because whether you believe in like you know, some sort of predetermined set of events, or if you just believe that like life is happening as it happens and it's all crazy, it's all like

snapping by as it happens. You don't necessarily need to cope to get back to some sort of place. You need to learn to accept as everything is happening. And I think that levity lets us do that. You know, Levity brings you back to almost a center of like, hey, this is crazy, or this is good, or this is terrible,

but also like this is just happening, you know. Like I had a joke I was doing for a little while before the lockdown started that was about how living in New York, you're around millions and millions of people all the time, every day, every time you go out, and every single day in New York is the best day of someone's life and the worst day of someone's life, and they're usually in the same room. Yeah, that's funny.

You made me twice in like forty seconds. Think of two separate songs by a band that I love called DAWs. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but there's two songs. One of them, there's a line that I love. The line is just things happen, That's all they ever do, which is a great line because he's sort of talking about somebody who's getting all bet out of shape about everything and thinking, He's like, you know, things happen, That's

just that's all they ever do. And then the other line is he goes through this list of really amazing and terrible things happening. He says, all these things are happening right this second, less than five miles away, which I think is an amazing sort of perspective. Now you let into all that by sort of correlating Zen and sociopaths. I've got to go back to that, partially because I'm a Zen student and I'm hoping to get permission here

to call my Zen teacher a sociopath. But let's talk a little bit more about that, because I think what you were saying was that a sociopath doesn't really see things as good or bad. It's just sort of neutral. And that's very much a Zen or a Buddhist idea, which is that things are good or bad because we side that they are, and that if we were to let go of that, if we were to let go of that grasping I like this, I don't like this, I like this, I don't like this. We let go

of that grasping, we would suffer way less. I think that's what you were saying yeah, it was Yeah. I never made that connection between those two things. I think underlying Buddhism there is a heart of compassion, but that is a similar nature. And I think this is interesting because I often think about this. I think about how possible is the Buddhist view of the world for most of us, And by by that, I mean the idea.

This is a vast oversimplification. But the vast oversimplification is if I could stop wanting, if I could stop saying I like this, I don't like this, I would be perfectly happy. The first time I heard it, I went, that's brilliant. Yes, And then I look at what it's like to actually be a human and I go, geez,

that seems pretty deeply wired in, you know. And I then I start going down and I looking at like a single cell organism, and even a single cell organism at the most basic bedrock of life is going to go that's good. I'll move towards it. That's food, that's toxic. That's bad. I'll move away from it. So that this is good, I want more of it. This is bad, I don't want to also seems baked into the very nature of our existence, so I'm just kind of curious

your thoughts on that. Yeah, I mean, it is part of our biology. It's it's why you know, we are attracted to attractive people outside of whatever social and cultural norms you've created. There's a deep, deep sense for us

to procreate with like a healthy mate. And to us, what is beauty is healthy and so we look for, you know, those healthy mates, and so we want and we lust after them because somewhere in culture and society, our wires got cross to where we don't necessarily do things for their instinctive purpose and we just do them for pleasure. So that does create like a sense of lust, a sense of wanting to like get a person or

conquer them or get at them. And I think that to your example, if we were to get rid of that want, yes, we would cure the sort of like lust, unrequited love, all of these things that make us unhappy, But we wouldn't necessarily get rid of the deepest, deepest want that is to be human, because it's from a biological standpoint, and I don't think that it is our job. I'm not necessarily like a Zen student, but I've read

a lot about it. I respected a lot, and I do think that it's one of the best ways that you can live your life if you're trying to be less harmful and to be harmed less. I think that it's not necessarily our job to destroy all the parts of ourselves that we deem unhappy or bad. Just like the two wolves never die, I think that there's something good, and I think a lot of good comes out of those less than perfect qualities that humans have, whether it's

biological or it's like a personality thing. And so I don't think that even if we did get rid of the need for want, let's say we didn't live in a capitalist society, and let's say we didn't need a hierarchy the way that even the monkeys do, I think that we would still have something that we needed that, even if it does create suffering, also created want, and

that is what would keep us going. You know. I think that to a certain degree, if you completely destroy all of want and you destroy the ego, then yes, you are not suffering as much. But I don't know if that would make you happy by default. I do think that it would make you super content, and I think that that's dope. Like whenever you run into like

a truly content person. It's one of the most enviable positions to be in, you know, because you're like, Wow, wherever it is, you are, no matter what I think about it, no matter what everyone says about it, you're genuinely happy. And that's actually attained by a few where people than attain wealth. I would tend to agree it is interesting because, yeah, if you totally deprogrammed the seeking behavior out of a species, that species would die off.

I mean, it just wouldn't survive. Some of what's built into us to survive is what drives us, and I find it interesting. There's a Buddhist teacher who wants said, our survival instinct is great for survival, it's just not real good for making us happy. It's wired these things into us. A certain amount of dissatisfaction makes you want

to procreate, makes you want to eat. So I always find it interesting trying to balance this um deep spiritual aspiration of hitting this point of no preferences with what's actually likely attainable. Otherwise, if we're not careful, we end up just always measuring ourselves against some spiritual ideal that we can't hit. That's just another way of feeling bad about ourselves. Yeah, you've just described most people's experience as

with cathalism, you know. And I mean also, I think that for everything that Zen does, what I really appreciate about it is that it's not necessarily preaching what should be. It just sort of lays out what is. And I think that by doing that, it's done itself as a movement, religion, philosophy, whatever you want to call it, has done itself a great favor in not actually being hypocritical, because most of the things that it mentions cause suffering also cause people

to learn Zen. Like a desire to change and desire to understand is why someone would come to the class in the first place. So sure, if they already had it, maybe they wouldn't need it, and maybe they wouldn't show up, But if they didn't partake in it, who would be able to like both spread the message and and also

enjoy the message? You know? Because I think that there are a lot of my friends that are very very happy um practitioners of Zen that are, in my opinion, like living that enviable life because they are like, look, I have a couple of things I do that I need to do to survive. So maybe I don't love my job every second of it, but you know what, I go to work and work provides me with this thing which does make me happy. So I think it's a zero sum total of necessity and need and I'm

having a great time with it. And someone that has that outlook is like, wow, that's amazing because so many people, especially growing up like in America, so many people are trying to climb. Even people who are already on the upper echelonge society are like trying to like climb or beat something. Even if they grew up a billionaire, they're

trying to beat their dad's company. It's like, you know, so much desire, so much wants, so much seeking, and I think that the seeking that brought some of my friends to where they are actually ended up paying off. You know. So let's talk a little bit about you and what comedy has done for you in your life. In a weird way, it makes it sound like an institution or like a mentor or something, but truthfully, it's like changed everything. Like through comedy, I've been able to travel,

I've been able to meet incredible people. It's it's it's how I've met some of my best friends. It's helped making me want to be a better person and like bring more of that compassion and levity to other people. And it's also made me study from a genuine place, both myself and other people, because if you can understand people, you can make them laugh. You know, if you understand

what makes them tick, you'll understand what they enjoy. If you understand what they enjoy, you understand how to like cure some of their ales because you'll know where they're coming from. And then the more that you understand yourself, the more that you understand your reactions to things. And I think it's made me the type of person that like looks at all sides of a thing, because I think that a lot of jokes in the world are

unfinished because they were just very one sided. And I think that for everything that you can make a joke about, there's like an opposite joke that changes the angle, and there's like a diamonds worth of angles to every joke.

And I think that to really start displaying a type of mastery and comedy, you have to not necessarily have that perspective, but you have to be willing to completely change your approach and adapt it because you look at comedy from the forties and it's like the little bit that people do get is like slapstick, but there was like really funny social commentary being made at the time.

But our society has changed enough where all that stuff is commonplace, you know, And I think that there's a lot to still grow and learn about each other through comedy, and I'm excited to be a part of that. In watching some of your comedy, and I think this is true of a good number of comedians, but certainly not all of them. You seem to zero right in on your own This might be a stronger word than it needs to be, but your own wounds, your own places

of vulnerability, your own places of fear. You know. Talk to me about how that works for you and whether that's a healing process for you. I think that for the comedians specifically, it can be a bit difficult because for myself, as Josh, as a comic, I have to already be close to over something to share it with other people and put it out on stage and make jokes about it. So for me, the writing of it

helps in the healing process. The actual performing of it is I guess therapeutic because I get to make a connection with someone who is laughing, which means they're agreeing and understanding where I'm coming from. But I also think that I make it about myself because there's a curious stage that's been created due to the current climate. So like coming from a place now where it's very easy

to offend people, it's very easy being misunderstood. It's very very easy for people to almost willingly misunderstand you and attack you. And I think that I separate myself and avoid of that by making it about me. You can't get offended at my life. You can't get offended at my understanding of things or what it used to be, because I'm laying it all out for you. So if you want to get offended at it, that's fine. You have a beef with a person that no longer exists.

And I think by me sharing the things that I'm going through or thinking about my fears and my my hardships and anger and the way those manifest to make jokes, it then lets people connect with me with an open hand. Basically, what I'm trying to do by making the jokes about myself and my experiences is make it okay for the people who have been through the same thing to laugh and understand that someone either got through it or is going through what they went through, or sees the thing

the way they see it. But it also doesn't push away or alienate the people who haven't been through what I've been through. So by just talking about my self, it's an open door to the experience, whether you're going through it or not, and then my reaction to it. So I still have a lot of time left in my career to talk about real trauma, real problems and

try to make them funny. For the most part, in the beginning catalog of my work, I stay mainly very silly and like would talk about things I was just super super over because it happened in high school, college, when I moved to Chicago, little things living in New York, stuff like that. And as I'm mature, I've been veering into more um I wouldn't say dicey territory, but just like more strange and controversial topics, you know. And I don't do that to be inflammatory or to get a

rise out of people. I do it because as a person, I am just now coming in contact with a way to articulate these things that people will understand where I'm coming from, and not just saying it to say it. Do you think that the things that you are willing to write about and then perform you said you kind of have to be in a place where you're sort

of over them. Do you think that it's often the writing of it and the joking about it that gets you over it, or do you have to get over it first to get to a point where you can do that, or a little of both. I do think it's different for every person. I know some people who genuinely exercise all their David's on stage, and it can be beautiful and it can also be a train wreck, depending on their level of experience and their level of

like mastery with communicating ideas. I know that for me, there is very little that I'm not willing to try to figure out in front of an audience because I would rather kick myself and be disappointed and how the performance went later because I tried, rather than still being nervous to try it again, like I had experience in Chicago, but like it's so silly now, but like in my twenty two year old mind at the time, it was

like life changing. But basically I was in this comedy competition very like low level, like dude, this is like a bar show. This is like there's not a big deal at all. But I was told by the organizer and and maybe even another person that was supposed to be clean, right, you had to be completely clean, And then like the first person went up and they weren't

clean at all. They were like actually super dirty, and then the second person was, and the third person was, and then the host kind of tried to remind them, but then like as the night went on, even the host started like getting dirty because it was just too hard to get people's attention and get laughs in the

room outside of like doing that thing. And then I went up and I did my set and I stayed clean, and like I had a couple of jokes that I wanted to do that weren't necessarily dirty, but they weren't in that like family friendly whatever, cookie cutter clean thing, which I don't know why we were doing because there were no kids and it wasn't like a Christian of it. It was at a bar, so I was like, I

don't even know why. And then after the competition I had to leave to do another show, and so apparently I want, but I didn't get to win because I wasn't there to like accept it, and they thought that was embarrassing, so they just gave it to second place or whatever. And then later on I saw a comic who also did the show that was like, I know that you could have done better, Like, even though you want, I know you could have done better, and you held

yourself back. And even though you did well, I know you could have done better and you wanted to do better because I could see it on your face while you're on stage. And ever since then, I've been of a mind that it's better that I just go ahead and try and maybe fail than to not try and be like, well, I'll do the joke next time I'm on stage, or let me write, let me add some

more thought to the writing, whatever. I think it's okay to just like trip up, you know, yeah, just be willing to go for it and fail versus not try. It makes me think of at a certain point in life, I hit this place where I was like, you know what, I think the pain of being rejected would be less than the pain of continuing to be a chicken when it came to like asking girls. Yeah, I was like, you know what, all right, I'm gonna swap the pain out here. I might get rejected, but I just can't

live with not trying anymore. Yeah. And also there's definitely something to be said for as much rejection as you fear you're gonna get, in real life, you're gonna get like maybe a tenth of that. And that's with all the trying in the world. Like when I when I go up like I I've started, because comedians talk about bombing, like when you truly like fail on stage in front of everyone, so you either get no laughs or you get booed, or you like turn the audience against you whatever.

And I've found that for me, the bomb has started to just be not creating the vibe that I wanted to create or not like. So, so you'll always have some sort of critique of yourself, and even as you get better at things, that critique actually just rises. It's it's one of the things that you know, zen actually helps people start to move away from and eliminate because you're always going to have your demons chasing you if

you never address them. So one of my demons definitely is wanting to put on like perfect performances all the time. And I found that I actually rarely fail as much as I think I'm going to, and I get rewarded for taking chances. Because then a joke that in my heart I felt I was ready, but maybe I wasn't ready to do. When I actually tried it and it got all the laughs, I'm like, wow, Okay, not only did they accept it, but they liked it. And that's

coming from me putting myself out there. Because we're all adults now. You know, if you're if you're at a comedy club and people paid to see you, no one is paying to be nice to you, you know, like they came to see a good show. So if you give them that good show, they're going to be appreciative and they're going to like let you know that they are coming from the same place as you, you know. And so fear of rejection definitely stopped me from doing

a lot of things and halted me before. And I think that as I get older, you start to care less, you know, you you become like those old guys at the gym who I don't even wear a towel anymore. They're just like, yeah, yeah, I'm here, look at it. What are you gonna do? Yep, yep, I'm not old, but I'm getting in that neighborhood I can certainly speak to like, yeah, it's like wow, all right. I never would have dreamt to do in that when I was

twenty five, But at forty forty eight, who cares? I suddenly am more able to look at certain old men and be like, I can see how he ended up near that outfit. You know, ten years ago I'd be like, well, what would cause you to possibly look like that? And now I'm like, well, I don't know, I can't. I'm starting to see the thought process a little bit. Yeah. So let's talk about mental health and comedians. And it's not a subject that doesn't come up from time to

time that you know, comedians have mental health issues? Is it mental health that makes people want to go into comedy? But let's talk about a depression specifically, and the role

of dealing with depression as a comedian, in particular performing comedian. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot to be said for the different aspects of depression in the brain, whether it's a chemical imbalance or whether it's you know, a culture that has surrounded you and is trying to not in a way that is a conspiracy, but just in a way of how we're surrounded by both like social media expectations and the expectation to rise as you get older in a capitalist society, all of those things can

begin to like ring the joy I have a person like a rag, because then it just feels like it's your job to be happy, to make everyone else happy. It's your job to not have problems. It's your job to fix all those problems when they come along. And I think that that's why we're looking at like a country and a nation of people who are struggling with their mental health because of the parameters we've set ourselves

up in to live. As a comedian, I'd like to think that I help with easing some of that by both poking unadded and reminding people that all of these pillars of society that you're supposed to adhere to in order to be an adult, or be a man, or be uh like a worthy person of friends and family, all those things are made up, and different cultures have totally different expectations and are going through their own version of those same things, And I think that in full

examination of the world around you and the way that it works, it's very easy to get discouraged, and it's very easy to get overwhelmed. And I think that's why a lot of comedians deal with their own forms of depression. If you if you sat someone in a room and had them examine everything for twenty four hours a day, including themselves, I think you would get a depressed person to a certain degree, you know, like if you're paying

close attention to everything that's happening in the world. A lot of it is positive, but a lot of it is not. And I think trying to combat that, especially with something that can sometimes feel so as useless as a joke, you know, Like I think that a comedian's job is important, but I'm not delusional enough to think I'm a doctor or like a lawyer that could file someone's appeal and help them get out of jail if

they're wrongly convicted. Like I mean, i feel like I'm armed with the power of ideas, but I'm mostly powerless in a world that is like completely concentrated, run by and obsessed with power. And so I think comedians have a big struggle with finding their place in social commentary and finding their niche of like what success means to them and how much of that is necessary in order

to convey their message or make them happy. And I think that even with like my own levels of depression and everything, like I said, writing the joke and coming to conclusions about it, especially ones that are funny and make other people laugh, it takes some of the power away from my situation, and it uses that power to make other people laugh and bring levity to their life. But I think that along that road, especially when it's not working, it can be an even more bitter one

to travel down. Because now, let's say, you know, I used to always say that, um, if I try to be so honest on stage sometimes that if I bomb, that's just a thing a bunch of strangers know about me. Now like now now we're now we're just in it together because now you didn't think it was funny and it happened. So I don't know, I don't know where

we go from here. And I mean, to a certain degree, the same way that people have the stereotype of actors going to acting because they want attention, I think that there's a stereotype about comedians that I am not sure it's wholly untrue that there's nothing mentally healthy about airing out your laundry for the approval of a bunch of strangers. This is essentially a lot of what we talk about,

especially the ones of us who are very raw. Um should just be said to a clinical psychologist or a therapist that may be dealt with, and instead we air it out so that other will know that this other

thing is more normal. There are plenty of subjects that I think if comedians talked about more, they get rewarded for talking about if you pay attention, you know, like like I think that Ali Wong has done tremendous things for not just women in comedy, but women to have aspects of their lives and their pregnancies and their attitudes that are finally addressed by someone that they admire, that has the confidence to stand from thousands of people and

talk about it from their own perspective, and then that person goes out into the world and maybe they have a little bit more confidence about it. You know. I think that so much pain and so much aggression and misunderstandings just come from a place of not knowing, not so much not accepting. So when comedians bring up things as a joke that normally would start a fistfight at a Thanksgiving table, you do walk away with that understanding.

You laughed at it, and maybe it changed your perspective on a thing that you thought you were decided on, Because especially if a person can make a joke catchy and repeatable to the point where you're like a George Carlin, where people are repeating your joke at a party, commentary, or thought, I think that that permeates the culture. And not to say that comedians should be like lauded or all of us should receive millions of dollars. I mean, that'd be nice, but I understand that that's like a

lofty dream. I just wish that people did recognize how much of what comedians say permeates the culture and the responsibility that we take in like addressing our own and the world's mental health when we're either talking about or

not talking about it. For some, For some comedians, just being up there is like a champion of their fears of their mental health state because they have depression and they couldn't get out of bed this morning, and maybe someone did have to drag them to the comedy club or to their to their show, and they share their gift freely with the rest of the world, even though

they're in deep, deep pain. And it's a testament, just like you see those Olympic runners who maybe pulled a calf muscle in practice and they still show up to the Olympics and run for a gold medal. Do you think that comedians are drawn to comedy because of underlying issues or do you think that comedy exacerbates mental health or a little of both. It's like the kind of the question I used to ask myself, you know, at a certain point as a teenager, like is it the

depressing music I'm listening to that's making me depressed? Or am I drawn to the depressive music because I'm already depressed? Like what's the relationship here? Is listening to the Smith's bad for me? Is it healing? It's I can't quite tell. Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both of the things that you listed, because I think that people they do generally work in spirals the same way that you know,

you talk about feeding the wolf. It's like, well, look, if you if you have to, and you feed one now the one that you fed has the energy the next time you're at the cave or whatever to come back and run up to you first and take the next meal and the next meal and the next meal, while the other side is starving. So I think that a lot of comedians, like I know, I was definitely depressed a lot as a kid and young adult, and

you know, I still, I still have my bouts. And I think that I was a specific case because I felt at least like comedy was the only thing I was at, so then it felt like a no brainer to try to like make it work one way or another, no matter what. But I also think that comedy can exacerbate those things because you have so much writing on your perspective. You live and die by your word, and when people misunderstand it or they just don't get it,

it does hurt. People's fear of public speaking is slightly rational. It does suck very much for a group of people to just stare at you, like what are you talking about?

Like that's a terrible feeling. And you know, especially the way that comedy used to work, because in those rock star days of like you know, Sam Kennison and like um Mark Marin's old sort of front half of his career where everyone was doing drugs and like clubs and bars and didn't necessarily have cash, or they were trying to pay you in drinks, which like still kind of happens today from time to time. It's like, why do you think there are so many alcoholics doing comedy. It's

like they get paid in drinks. So not only did they take all of their pain and sometimes it's not pain. There are a lot of comics who stay very silly, who are very funny, who don't touch on social issues at all, and I respect and love, but they still took all of their brain power, all of their intellect

to create something that lots of people enjoyed. And maybe because they're not business savvy enough, or because they're not greedy enough, or because they're desperate, they didn't get a cut and all those people showing up to enjoy their work, or maybe no one showing up at all, and so now they're paid for it with a beer. And it's like this little level of distraction is all of your

your efforts are worth? Can feel that way, you know, Like because I don't drink, so I've had people try to pay me and beers and I'm like, well, I guess you're just not paying me, Like I don't, I don't know what we're going to do about this. So, you know, I think that comedians are onto comedy both because it lifts a lot of the aspects of depression, but also because it can be that extra downward spiral that you need. Some people ride comedy like it's taking

them somewhere, but it really is. You drive in the car, so you know, you'll see comedians who have a tough time and then all their jokes are full of venom and spite and anger, and it's like, all right, that's what you turned the comedy into because that's what you thought, either thought was funny or what you're feeling, and you don't care if it's funny or not. And then you see people get to such a happy place that all their jokes are just like completely light, and it's like

that's what they created with it, you know. So what about you in your own life, Like do you use strategies, emotional strategies or self help strategies to deal with your depression. I've definitely come to an understanding about myself that I almost need to time things out, like I'll feel a certain way about something or or even better yet, I'll

be in a mood. Right, So, I'm in a mood, and I've at least been lucky enough to surround myself with good people and been alive long enough to have those moments where I'm like, all right, I'm in a mood. Maybe it'll pass, maybe it won't, but for right now, I'm not going to act on anything with this mood in mind, you know. So if that means I stay in all day, I stay in all day that. If that means I have to go somewhere, then I will go. But I'm I'm just going to be very aware of myself.

And it's one of the things that I got out of reading a lot of Zen back in the day when I lived in Chicago, because it was one of the first things that really captured me and wasn't in any argument with. So there are lots of sacred text, lots of religious writings or self help books whatever that because you're reading the way that reading works. When you're reading, you're talking your head. You hear your own voice reading

the thing in your head. But when it's something that you don't agree with, or something that's annoying, or something you don't believe, or something you don't understand. It creates an argument in your head, you know, it creates this like, well, no, that doesn't make any sense, that's crazy. Why would you?

And Zen writings were the first thing that I read where there was no argument, not because I agreed with it, but because there was nothing to be agreed with or fought against, you know, it just was it was like, are you unhappy? If you're not unhappy, then hey, you're fine. But if you are unhappy, maybe this is something that you could do about it. Maybe it's not, maybe you

have a different path. And it just felt like talking to someone who actually understood, you know, it felt like talking to someone because because sometimes people can be so close to you and love you so much. This is a thing that happens with every single person, but it also happens with comedians sometimes, where people love you so much that they won't let you bomb. So if friends are there, they're gonna laugh at your joke, even if it's not funny, even if they heard a hundred times.

But then the people who don't know you are giving you the honest reaction of like nothing, like this isn't funny, or like I don't get it. And it's a trap that some people get in in comedy, especially in that open mic stage, because you're an open micro you make friends with a bunch of open micros. Then you almost start playing to the room. You start playing to your friends as opposed to playing to the crowd and trying to get better as a comic. The same thing happens

with life. So you can surround yourself with people who love you so much that they won't let you fail. They won't tell you when you're wrong, they won't tell you the hard things that you have to do how to fix them, and they'll make excuses for you. And if you live in that, then you're never going to improve as a person. You're never gonna be happier as a person because you're never going to address anything that

you do that's making you unhappy. And it felt like when I was reading those Zen meditations that it was the first time that someone was like not judging but also not hyping up. You know, you can read aize self health books that are like you deserve to be happy, and it's like, look, I'm not I'm not trying to be a jerk, but maybe not everybody deserves to be happy.

There are people doing terrible things in the world, and maybe they do deserve to feel sad about them for a little while because it proves that they're human and that they have a conscience. So they're definitely people who give you loving advice that's coming from the wrong place. You see it a lot with friends. Friends give some of the worst dating advice you can imagine, because not only are they not dating the person you're dating, but you've never dated them and they've never dated you to

see what type of partner you are. So then you tell them the scenario. You obviously tell it to him with bias because you're upset, and they tell you know you deserve better than that, but they weren't there. So now you go back hyped up and you make it worse because your friend was like, no, Doc, you're better

than that. Don't take it. And and comedy does the same thing sometimes, And I think that levels of depression can work in that same way, where the things that feel good and normal and familiar that you're attracted to, sometimes they lead to your depression. Sometimes they just don't get you out of it. And when I was reading these texts, it was the first time that I was like, Wow, Okay, this is my plan thus far. It may change and it may not even be a good plan. I may

have to adapt it. But when I get depressed, I'm going to take a second, even if it is literally just one second, and be like, this is where you are, and then deal with it from there. And sometimes that that leads to me making really good decisions and being very pragmatic, and other times it leads to me not taking enough action. But at least if I'm honest with myself and aware of myself, I can I can move

forward in a way that I won't regret later. I can proudly say that ever since I've read those books, and I had had long bouts without reading any Zen writings anything like I'm not a Buddhist or anything, but I can tell you that when I was twenty two three and I was reading I was just devouring all these books about it. Even though I haven't read them as much since, it really changed my life in the way of taking a step back, even sometimes in the moment,

giving it a good think. And I've had way less outbursts. I've had way less downward spirals. And I think that that's mainly due not just a maturity and getting older and caring about different things, but also because I set that mindset at such an early adult age that now it's how I plug into everything. You know, Yeah, totally. You made me think of a bunch of different things. They're one of them. Was There's always this balance with the people in our lives. And I've run into this

as a as a coach. I coach people for a living right, all right, you know, I've got to stand you. I want to make you feel understood. I want to make it okay to be where you are. And I think you might need a little you know, you might need to be pushed a little bit or pulled a little bit, you know. And I think it's always it's always a challenging balance to do with with people we

care about. Is like, all right, you know, commiserate, but also at what point do you advocate for a different perspective, a change of action, behaving differently all of that. It's it's such a nuanced thing to know the right thing to do. Yeah, And and it's tough too because there are a lot of people who like go to therapy, let's say, and you know, don't always recognize that their therapist is just another person and it's just it's just trying to navigate both their own life and how to

help people. And so sometimes whether it's due to the form of therapy the person doing the therapy, I've seen people almost of that same like misplace hyped up response to stibulus, as as if their friend gave them some bad advice. Because I don't know how rooted in psychology it's been since talk therapy was introduced, but there's for many a distinct belief that if people talk things out enough,

they'll come to the right conclusion themselves. And it's like, look, I I think plenty of people can do that, but I think depending on the person in the situation, you do have to step in sometimes and be like, because you're looking at it this way, you're always going to veer off because of the initial seed that you planted of this isn't my fault or everyone else around me

is against me, or whatever thought that is. And don't get me wrong, sometimes people are right, like like the way that I always try to air out things with my friends when they have grievances, uh, not necessarily with me, but just with their world or their partner or whatever. Is. I always am like, look, there is a case that you're right. What are you going to do about that? You know, even if you're right, where are we going

to move from here? If the entire point of this fight is to be right, then let's pretend you're already there because you think you are, so how are you going to be happy? Now? You know? And I think that that is where I try to be, and that's where comedy has brought me. Is that I looked out at the world and I saw this especially was really little, like really young. I saw this like super unfair, super racist,

super evil, misogynistic, painful world. And then as I got a little bit older and started like, whether it's reading like your Bible or the Zen teachings or Koran or just psychology books for for people who are agnostic or atheist or anything like that, whatever you do to try to seek out some form of understanding about the world around you. I think that when you do it with an honest and genuine intention, you're going to find something that you can resonate with and for me that was

comedy more so than anything else. You know, it was like, comedy is how I deal with how unfair the world is, and it's how I point out all the great things about the world, you know, because, like you, if you just watch mainstream news and you just stay in tune with the legislative branch and you just stick to all the factual, matter of facty things about the world, it

looks like a bleak place. But inside and behind and around all of those things are beautiful, perfect examples of a wonderful human nature and a great place to live your life, you know, like like this earth isn't perfect, but it's a it's a nice place to be, especially if you make an effort to make it one wonderful. I think that is a great place to wrap it up. I love that underneath, around, behind, there's always be Yeah. I love that. So thank you so much for taking

the time to come on. It has been a real pleasure talking with you. I do appreciate it. Thanks for having me man. I hope I didn't talk your head off. That's the point of this, that's the point. Yeah, great to meet you. Yeah, thanks again, it's been a real pleasure, take care. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One

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