Jonathan Rottenberg: Depression and Evolution

or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good Wolfe Thanks for joining us.

Our guest today is Jonathan Rottenberg, a leading researcher in the area of emotion and psychopathology, focusing on major depression. He's the author of the book The Depths, The Evolutionary Origins of the Depression, epidemic. John has authored over thirty five scientific publications, including Scientific American and The New York Time. Here's the interview. Hi Jonathan, Welcome to the show. Hi Eric, thanks for having me. Yeah, I am really excited to

get you on. I enjoyed your book The Depths a lot. I thought there was a lot of really interesting points about depression that some of which I think are relatively common thinking, and then there were some that were very different. So I'd like to kind of get into that. But to start, we'll start like we always do, which is

with the parable of two wolves. So our podcast is called The One You Feed, and it's based on that parable, which goes something like, there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,

which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a minute, and he asked his grandfather, well, which one wins, And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do well. UH. I think that the parable speaks to the ambivalence. UM. It's a parable about ambivalence that we have the possibility for two kinds of reactions, for

two kinds of behaviors UH and depressed people UM. For so many UM produce such an ambivalent reaction. On the one hand, people want to help UM, they want to love, they want to empathize. But on the other hand, depressed people for for many are are scary. Mental mental illness, mental health conditions are unfamiliar to many people, and often what people do is pull back from depressed people withdraw

judge UM. And and I think that it's a great challenge for us to feed our good wolf and overcome UM the age old stigma and and fear UM that surrounds this condition. So let's talk a little bit about

your book, The Depths. Can you sort of give us a walk through of your your core theory, which to me it basically sounds like what you're saying is that depression is UH an evolutionary adaptation that has gone wrong in certain cases, and that our current model of only looking at depression is a deficit in someone, is an incomplete way of looking at it. Yeah, that's exactly right.

UM the dominant paradigm. So the dominant way of thinking about depression, both in research and in treatment UM is to think of depressed people as lacking something fundamental, whether that's a neurotransmitter in their brain or an ability to control their emotions, or a fault in their cognition, or

some deficit and how they relate to other people. And UH that has really brought us to um a terrible pass where despite all the incredible resources that are being poured into research and treatment, the problem of depression is actually getting worse. UH now affects about one in five people in the United States. The World Health Organization and other groups project the depression is actually going to be a growing problem in the future, with a more negative

impact than things like cancer, war in in accidents. And so in the book, I really criticized the the defect modelism, calling it and say that we're going to make a lot more progress, We're gonna understand depression a lot better if we think of it as a mood, as a mood state, and that our ability to be very depressed.

Our ability to have clinical depression, which can be a dangerous thing, is actually connected connected to this very useful adaptation for mood which helps us uh approach opportunities, grab rewards that are in our environment, and withdraw from threats, and stop our behavior when we're getting into trouble. And so what drives you to arrive at the position that it's more of evolutionary adaptation than it is a deficit. What are some of the things that led you to

believe that? Sure, I mean, I think that UM. We have to see that we have kind of a unique resistance to seeing UM depression is connected to evolution an adaptation. We really have no problem seeing that for other aversive and unpleasant UM kind of emotional states. So we have no problem seeing that anxiety is protective, It keeps us uh, keeps us vigilant against threats. We have no problem seeing that pain is a good defense against damage to our bodies.

But for some reason, many people have come to the the view that that sadness and low mood are completely useless. UM. But clearly, UM, we see that across humans and other species when they're put in situations where there is really nothing that that a person or an animal can do, whether that's a famine, whether that's an environment where there are no rewards, or the the organisms facing constant punishment.

UH that what you see is that the UH animal will stop behaving, will will um cease pursuing rewards, will sort of stay in place. And what we have UM in human low mood UH is basically a in a you know, an elaboration on that basic, very primitive UM animal capacity. So you say that depressions purpose that you think is to is to help us, it's it's evolutionary

purposes to help us disengage. Absolutely. So, if you're a bear and you're fishing for salmon and you're spending all day in the same spot UH, and you're being very active and pursuing that reward and there are no rewards available, the fact that the the bear has a stock mechanism to say there are no rewards here to get it to cease behaving is incredibly useful UM. So you know, you think of all kinds of situations where it's useful

to pause behavior. It's not a good idea for a person or an animal to head out on a new UH direction during a blizzard, that's a time for hunkering down. And there are a variety of situations where pausing behavior is the best option. And there are a variety of situations, um, both with humans and with animals. The one that comes to mind the quickest is, uh, the death of a close relationship, where there's a situation that cries out to stop what you're doing, to pause, to analyze what's going on.

What does this mean for the future, And Uh, it's not a pleasant state. But if we didn't have it, um we we we we really would be in a far worse position. And so you're saying that it's basic purpose is to help us disengage in so that in situations where more activity might not be the right idea, and it does that by the purposes it lowers your mood, and a lower mood is going to sort of naturally slow you down. But you say so with depression with animals,

it seems pretty straightforward. And then you go on to say that with humans, part of the reason you think that it's gotten out of control would be certain particular positive human tendencies that we have. Yeah, that's a great point. So the defect model doesn't have a very smart account for why there would be more depression now then there wasn't a past in the past. The idea would be if you hold that view that humans suddenly became more defective, and I don't think that's true, and I don't see

anyone really making a strong argument that that's true. But if you if you take the perspective of mood in the idea that low mood is an adaptation, you don't need uh. You don't need humans to becoming be more defective. In fact, some of the things that human beings do very well um are the things that can get people into a lot of trouble with their moods. So, for example, humans have elaborate language that other animals don't have, and

so we can elaborate upon a mood. Humans can have a have a very elaborate conceptual self, So chimpanzee can feel bad, but only human being can feel bad about feeling bad and spend that thought over and over uh um a terrible mother in their head, and that will deepen the depression. Only humans can set very high goals, for example, a goal to be famous um. Goals that are very far in the future. Uh. Animals tend to have more short term goals, and humans can set any

kind of goal. I mean the the what language and planning and our our unbelievable frontal hopes enables is us in some ways to get depressed about a greater variety of things. But this these are the things that enable enabled us to dominate the planet. UM. Many of these capacities and the same capacities are are really UM a big component of why there is so much depression now.

And you talk about that, UM, you talk about humans as being meaning making machines as and we make meaning out of things, and that depression in some cases is that meaning making machine. I'd like to say that it's kind of fun uh in in overdrive in an ability

to to turn off. And you talk about the last couple of shows that I've done, UM, I do some shows where I just talked for a little bit, and I've talked a lot about rumination, which is something that you also talk about in your book a fair amount. Can you talk about that meaning making machine and rumination and the role that plays sure, So it's really interesting.

So our mood system is it's responding to inputs that UM like language, that are in our consciousness, and that's also responding to a lot of things that are outside of our consciousness, like UH, light levels and how much sleep we're getting and things like that. Um our ability to think about our moods, the significance of our moods is often useful because it enables us to solve problems.

But sometimes people get stuck and they are literally spinning the very same thought over in their head for days, months, weeks, and and and sometimes uh longer than that. Um and these are often very negative thoughts about, uh, why can't I fill in the blank, make friends? Why can't I get a job? Why can't I get over this depression? And those are the kind of thoughts that tend to deepen depression and make it last longer and make a person feel very hopeless. So language and the ability to

think about things is a double edged sword. Uh. And that we have the ability to connect with others through language, to tell stories that might help us solve a problem, overcome a problem, understanding depression, but also this ability to ruminate, to ruminate, um, what you what you're talking about, which really is a kind of spinning one's wheels. Do you believe that low mood. I'm circling back to our previous

our previous topic. Do you believe that low mood is in adaptation and depression is the extension of that beyond when it's useful, or is depression itself, um, part of that adaptation or I might just being semantic at this point. No, I think it's an important distinction. So low mood comes in in in um degrees, so it can be really mild, barely noticeable. I'm sure you've noticed times you've felt a

little bit down. Uh. Virtually everyone has experienced mild or moderate low mood where you know you you'll be thinking some negative thoughts in and be feeling less vigorous and and kind of behaving less. But it goes all the way to very severe, incapacitating low mood, where a person can't get out of bed uh and they've ceased eating uh, and they really have ceased behaving to the point where

someone might be in the hospital. UM. So that's all on a continuum, and I think that UM, all the things that UH might explain why someone is in a milder, moderate UH low mood are the very same things that explain uh more severe UH depression. We don't need separate explanations. But a severe depression, clinically significant depression is just a just a more intense form of low mood. In yes,

I think that low mood can become dangerous. Um it's it's probably not helpful, you know, when people are stuck in a low mood for a long time. But there's always the possibility that someone will be able to work their way out of low mood and understand what that low mood was signify or what it was, what it was all about. One of the points that you make, though, is that consistent, persistent low mood is a likely indicator

of future and more severe depression. That you call it persistence, this sort of ongoing right, I mean, one of the big themes of the book is why does some people get get trapped? Uh in in in long, punishing depressions. And there's often many reasons that are pushing a person. I mean, I should say uh in a spirit of disclosure,

I was one of those people. I was depressed for about four years and a number of the things that I would talk about in the book as the motors of depression, such as rumination, such as having being stuck on goals that uh, you cannot reach and making no progress towards those goals. But by the same token, not um being willing to relinquish or give up those goals. That was me um. But different people have different motors UM. So this this mood system is open to many different inputs.

So it's it's open to environmental inputs. So many people have a severe um event that happens to them that triggers the depression. They might have a divorce, they might have a loss of a job, they might have God forbid the loss of a significant other that triggers the depression. And then layered on top of that is often how people react to the depression. So things like how do they cope with the depression? Are they able to are they able to control their thoughts or do they get

into this kind of spiral. Are they able to connect with other people or do they become more isolated? So you know, what often happens is that most everyone faces adversity, but for some that adversity will turn into a more sustain more long lasting depression. In the book is an exploration particularly of cases where the depression does sustain itself and kind of take a life of its own. You talk about three things that seed low mood. You talk

about UM, events, temperaments, and routines. Can you maybe just spend a minute or so on each of those and and talk about the role they're playing. This depression epidemic that we're having in the United States and in the world, UH is happening because the breeding grounds, breeding grounds for low mood are so fertile. And that's because there is a combination so so the combination of people who are predisposed uh by there by their genes UM to have

certain kinds of moods. So some people tend towards being a bit more anxious uh than others, um, more fearful, towards having more periods of low mood than others. But then on top of that are routines, so we don't many people unfortunately don't get enough sleep, UM, they don't get enough light UM. And this too, UM is one of the one of the big seeds. So for why so many people are already walking around in a in a low mood state and they're kind of just primed.

So now, if you're walking around in your low mood stage for days and weeks or months, and then something bad happens to you. On top of that, you're more vulnerable to having a really serious and sustained UM depression. We can have events that happen, we have routines, and we have a temperament, and you talk about it's the idea of the emotional set point, right that some of us have are more inclined to. Our base is a

little bit different. But one of the things that you also talk about is that in a culture that is so obsessed with happiness that those of us who might have a lower set point are sort of always striving towards something that may not be really possible or ideal for us. That's exactly right, So you can you can look at this as a as a sad thing or is a potentially positive thing, because I've dentified some things that are pretty hard to control. It's pretty too hard

to control your tempera it. You know, you you come into the world with a certain predisposition to have certain kinds of moods, and you can't always control events. Um. Sometimes people get laid off because the plant closes UM. But you can control, I think, to a large degree, how you react to moods and you can control what your expectations are for mood. And we're really in a in a very remarkable place right now. UM. On the one hand, it makes sense, Uh, the pursuit of happiness

is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. It's this American as apple pie. But on the other uh, people have developed extraordinary expectations UM for how happy they ought to feel. I think it's how happy they ought to or they think they should feel. UM. Some of this is driven by how happy they think other people are. UM. We're very social creatures, and things like social media UM can create a false sense that other people are happy all

the time. And this may sound uh, you know, this may sound innocuous, but it's actually um pretty problematic because what happens is that people notice I'm not feeling all that happy. I'm actually feeling a little bit happy, unhappy, and I should be feeling much happier, and so what's wrong with me? And it sets in motion this question which begins the whole cycle of rumination, what's wrong with me? Why am I not happier? Why can't I get over this?

And so the inability to tolerate a little bit of depression a little bit of low mood UH can create actually a crisis where someone comes to question, um, the whole path of their life. Right. I think that there is an idea that we should always be happy, and that's that's the picture that's painted by a variety of things. And then when we're not, Uh, it does it raises a lot of question gins and it starts to feel like failure, and it starts to it does breed much more.

It turns the meaning making machine on. You know, if you again look at it from the perspective of evolution, the end of evolution most certainly is not happiness. I mean, I'm sad to say that, I'm sad to break that news. Um, if it's news, the end of evolution is survival. Happiness is actually a useful certain kinds of UM positive food states are a useful means towards that end. So feeling a shot of adrenaline of excitement after your data the

prompt says yes, that is incredibly adaptive. When you get a raise feeling, that shot of adrenaline and that positive feeling, it's a signal that you're moving towards an important goal. When you're getting closer to that goal. But what happens is that those feelings inevitably fade, and you think that's cruel. UM. You think that's not useful, but it actually is useful because what evolution wants us to do is to strive

and not to stand pat UM. It would be great if that feeling of adrenaline and that uh, that great excitement lasted. But you know when when the when the bunny eats a carrot, um, it feels good for a minute, but if it felt good forever, it wouldn't hop along and try to find more carrots, and that would be the end of the bunny. One of the things that you say is that, and we'll talk. I think it would be I'd like to turn the conversation here more

towards Okay, what do we do with this UM? So I guess the first question I would ask is do you believe that you know, there's a lot of medicines out there. There's a lot of UM therapies that intervene and we'll get into more of the UM i'll call mental therapies, but there are physical therapies that intervene UM

with with some degree of success UM medication. UM. You know, brain stimulation, different things, and so how does how does the fact that those sometimes work line up with with what you're saying, because I know that you are you are critical of the way that we treat depression in this country as being hopelessly incomplete, and I would agree with that, But what is the role you think some

of those more physical treatments play. I think they have a role, and it makes sense that you would be able to move the mood system with with the drug. We try to do that crudely all the time by drinking alcohol or taking illicit drugs. UM. I think that we're handicapping ourselves by not using all the levers that we can pull to to move mood. So we've put a lot of eggs in the basket of medications. And it's not that they have no utility whatsoever. They're very useful.

For about a third of the people who take medication get a real substantial benefit. And that's actually not that different in number than the people who UM would take would undergo an accepted m psychotherapy for depression. But it leaves a lot of room, I think for the individual UM to experiment and find their own route out of depression.

UM and I think that's what that's what we need to do, is to encourage people to become more literate about where their moods come from and to take more control if they're having a serious problem like depression, of finding their way out of depression. That doesn't mean refuse treatment, absolutely not. It actually means, uh, get in treatment, but don't expect that to be your salvation. That use that as a tool. Ask tough questions to the doctor and um, push them to help you as much as they can.

And then UM, through your knowledge about yourself and your mood, you can get yourself the last mile. Because in the end it's really not enough. I think that we need to um have higher standards. So a lot of times, UM, we call it drugs successful. If it makes people less depressed. I mean that's nice. It's nice to be less depressed.

But I think the goal should be that people are actually flourishing, that they're leading meaningful lives, that they really put the depression completely behind them, and so the drugs

are not going to do that. Yeah you, um, you posted something on your Facebook page and I have no idea what to call it, but it was basically a vase that had been put back together with gold, and I think that the underlying idea there is that and we talked about it on this show a lot, that these problems are, these challenges are can actually you can do more than simply get back to where you were. They can be they can be bridges to much better lives.

You know, it's true, And the defect model has no place to put that, UM, because if you were, uh, if you're looking at a person who had depression, and you're always seeing them as someone who has a problem in their brain, and they always have this problem, and they always should take medication even if they're feeling okay because this underlying problem. But there really is the reality

that some people. We don't actually have as much research on these people as we should, but a substantial minority maybe of people who experience a significant depression never have another episode. And then a subgroup of those people not only no longer have an episode, but as you say, UM, they go on to lead richer, more meaningful lives. The depression may be part of their armor, maybe part of

what enables them to be actually wiser. UM. In my own case, I think that UM I made a number of mistakes in my life and depression was I'm not saying it was a just dessert. UM. I certainly would not depression, wish depression on my worst enemy. Certainly not a depression that last for years. But I do think that gave me some valuable lessons that I take away

and that I use every single day. UM. And it's not just the cliche, the cliche about you know, enjoyed the little things, though that is true if you've been flat on your back depressed. UM, normal mood feels kind of good. It feels better them than it did before.

But in my own case, UM, and I think for many people who experienced depression, UM, it was a call to rebalance my life, UM, to look for meaning in different places UM than I did before, and UM, maybe not get as bent out of shape by certain kinds of everyday hassles and UH in concerns. Yeah, you mentioned a couple of three different sort of therapies or approaches that seem to have some besides medicine, that have some detectable and known effects on low mood, and those would

be UM, acceptance, mindfulness and cognitive behavior therapy. And you say that the thing they all have in common is they turned down the volume on that meaning making machine.

Can you explain how those fit together? Sure? So we all have these awful voices in our head at some time, and when you're depressed, and if you had depression and those voices start to come back, um, they're very threatening and they can they can really um cause people to spiral downwards because what happens is that people take these often very critical voices and these bad feelings as the

soul reality. And what techniques like mindfulness acceptance in cognitive behavioral therapy allow people to do is not block out, not refuse to recognize that these voices exist. It gives them their space, but it also allows people to to kind of question and also to have a certain distance from their own thoughts and feelings. And that enables people a kind of breathing space and an ability to say, well,

that's it's it's a it's a mood. It's a terrible mood right now, but I know actually it probably will pass. And it gives them a kind of patience that is incredibly useful. Can make the difference between a bad mood lasting a day and a bad mood lasting a week.

One of the things you talk about in the book that I think is really really interesting, and you you talk about the fact that the general theory is that, you know, if you're a psychologist and you're treating depressed people, you ought to have more Kleenex in the office because depressed people are likely to cry more, um, which I've

always found to be that's never resonated with me. I mean, I don't think that's true, but you've got you talk about studies that show that depressed people actually react less to negative stimulus uh than people who are not depressed, as well as reacting less to positive stimulus. The overall thing is that there is very little response to stimulus that varies. And I think you call this emotional context insensitivity.

Mm hmm. Yeah. I Mean what how I see depression fundamentally is when a person is in a such a strong, such a strong mood state, uh that they actually start to disengage from their environment. And it's not that they're not feeling anything. Um. Depressed people tend to uh feel horrible.

I mean they feel absolutely horrible, but they feel that horrible all the time, whether they're looking at a sunset or whether they're watching a sad movie, and so you, as the external observer looking at a depressed person, say wow, they reacted pretty much the same way to the beautiful sunset as they did to this terrible tear jerk or film, And the depressed person says, yeah, it was pretty much all the same. To me, it was all pretty much horrible.

And so that's motion context and sensitivity in a nutshell. It's this kind of shutdown of our normal, flexible engagement with the world and kind of replacing with this horrible gray monotone which is also responsible for my legendary poker face. So there's one other thing that you say in there, and I think we're we're nearing the end of our time. But you say that a person who is able to get agitated still or angry or feel a stronger response

is more he's more likely to climb out a depression. Yeah, it does seem that as depressions grind on for um months or years, that people have a much harder time having this typical emotion flexibility and ability to be cheered up by the occasional good thing that might happen, and the occasional ability to react to even bad things that

are going on. I mean, it's sort of ironic. I think, UM, when I was depressed, and I'm thinking of times when I would watch terrible things on on the television, UM, like you know, there's a famine going on, and you see pictures of swollen bellies and and flies on little children. That that, to me wasn't especially upsetting. It wasn't nearly

as upsetting as UM, what was going on inside. And so I noticed, and I think this is borne out in the research that UM, when I started to actually react to that again, UM, that that was actually a sign that UM, that I was getting better. And so there are variations. Not all depressions are cracked up to be the same. Some last only a little while and some last a long time. And and so this kind of deadening of of response doesn't seem to be a

very positive UM prognosticator, you know, a predictor, UM. But you know, these are the kinds of things that you would try to change. You try to change in therapy and and try to change you on your own over time. And so if if we were to if the if the conversation were to change, UM on a on a broader level, and we were to say, okay, let's say everybody woke up tomorrow and and and read your stuff and said, oh, I think that's right. The deficit model.

That's no good. This is a mood disorder. What changes? How do we deal with um? This differently? And I'm less interested in a national response, although that has a role, But also what does an individual do with that information? I think it's huge actually, UM, because you're not thinking of your mood as something other than you as right now with our current view of depression, depression is basically

an imposition of a foreign body. It's like a foreign invader, UM, And there's really nothing, nothing to learn from it, and there's nothing to do um, you know, I mean the in the in the in the classic biomedical model, UM, of a serotonin deficit, you take the pill and there's nothing for the patient to do. We're listening to prozac. But in my view, UM, we should always be listening to to our moods and we don't have to wait

until we get severely depressed. In fact, we can be acting on this information and trying to put ourselves in a better place well before mood gets out of control. And I don't see the goal at all that we should aspire to a society that doesn't have any depression. I think that's an absurd goal, completely impossible goal. But rather a society where we are able to talk about our moods, we're able to understand our moods, and we're

better able to contain them. Because right now what's happening is that millions of people are in these terrible mood states. They don't understand them, they're tremendously frustrated, and it's a big public health issue, and that um, they're not getting supported, They're having a lot of trouble finding help, and that's really the recipe for this depression epidemic. But on the

individual level, there's tremendous amount that people can do. I mean, sure, reading my book is one first step, but you have to interpret this in terms of your own life. So what are the events that matter to you, what are the purposes that matter to you? Follow those purposes, UM, Learn how to tolerate the low moods, Learn how to adjust your goals so that you're not constantly of finding

yourself pursuing goals that are unreachable. And I'm actually very optimistic, um, maybe more optimistic in some ways than this defect model, which says that if you've had depression, you should think of yourself as broken, that you need to be helped basically for the rest of your life. Um, I think that we can have a much more proactive view and that people can be much much healthier and the outcomes

can be so much better than they are today. Great. So, one of the things about your model, and I'm now I'm sort of just filtering it through my own lens, is it has felt to me very much like depression is cyclical, Like it sort of just comes and it goes, and I have no real ability to tie it to life events, and then it just sort of passes. And the way I've started to deal with it to a certain extent is to and I guess this is this

is turning down the meaning making machine as I go. Well, I treat it like the emotional flu I'm like, all right, I just don't feel that great right now, you know what, I'll take care of myself and I'll come out the other side. This is not the time to be reevaluating every aspect of mine, you know, because I get into that spot and you suddenly, what does my life mean anything? But is there anything in your model that sort of accounts for that cyclical nature or the it just feels

it's an odd thing. It feels very physical to me. Of course, it has a physical component. I mean, moods are so powerful because they harnessed the mind and they harnessed the body, and moods are very open to physical inputs. So if you don't get sleep, your mood suffers immediately, and that's the physical effects of the lack of restoration. If you're living in the northern hemisphere and it's the dead of winter, many people experience low mood, and that's

because of the lack of light, lack of sunlight. And so there are many physical, both physical influences on mood that are not tied to specific events. And also mood has physical effects upon us. How else could it get us to stop behaving unless it affected our you know, our muscles and our hormones that are circulating. How else could it get us to think certain thoughts unless it was changing what was going on in our brain. So

you know, moods are not this phantom state. They're this powerful, integrative force that gets us to do things or not do things. And so I think that what's exciting about

my book. One of the things that I think is exciting is that I offer and talk about a multitude of of levers that people can pull in order to change their mood and also to try to understand their mood, because not all moods are as simple as I had a break up with, you know, with my girlfriend, and now I feel down about it, Or I did bad on an exam and now I do now I feel

bad about it. Often people have a lot of trouble understanding what are the sources, and sometimes they'll never fully understand what are the sources because some of the sources are outside of your conscious awareness. But that's research on mood. Part of what we know is that things like light, things like sleep, things things like our physical activity level affect our mood as much as events and and and the people around us. Well, thank you very much for

your time. I did enjoy the book. It got me thinking about a lot of different things. And I really like the work you're doing on trying to broaden the conversation on depression. Because I'm a I've I've benefited greatly from medicine, but I also recognize that that is only a piece of a much bigger puzzle. And I like that. That's what you're bringing to the table, is that you're just giving somebody a pill and sending them home is not really a treatment for the whole picture. Well, thank

you very much. All Right, we'll take care of Jonathan and we'll talk again soon. Thank you very much, thanks for having me on the show. Okay, bye bye. To learn more about Jonathan Rottenberg and this podcast, go to one new feed dot net slash Rottenberg