Jon Wurster

We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their

good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is John Worcester, an American musician and humorous best known as the drummer for indie rockers Superchunk, Bob Mould, and The Mountain Goats. He's also known for his comedic work with radio host Tom sharp Ling on The Best Show on WFMU. Let's check out the interview. Hi, John, welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me. Yeah,

it's a it's a real pleasure. I have to tell you that I'm probably going to have a hard time at first taking you seriously because I've heard your voice for hours and hours, and in almost every case when I hear that voice, you are playing some jackass or the other on the radio on the Best Show. So it may take me a little while to get get used to you actually being you. That's okay, I actually get that a lot. I'm sure you do. I'm sure

you do. So our podcast is called The One You Feed, and it's based on the parable of Two Wolves, where there's a grandfather and he's talking with his grandson and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us. One is a good wolf, which represents kindness and love and bravery, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents hate and greed and fear and pick your poison. And the grandson stops and he thinks for a second. He says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says,

the one you feed? So what I'd like to start the interview off with is asking you what that parable means to you in your life. You know, obviously it means you you try to live your your life in a way where you are uh, you know, you're you're engaged in the good, the good side, the good part parts of yourself, and you treat others and interact with others from that good side. But I also think the more I kind of get into this, that that that bad wolf, while maybe it doesn't need to be fed,

it needs to be acknowledged at least. I think we all have a uh a light and a dark side, and I think when we ignore that dark side, that's kind of when when trouble starts to bubble up. I like I said, I don't think you need to feed that that bad wolf, but I do think it needs to be acknowledged and even showing some compassion while not

exactly feeding it. Yeah exactly. I actually think for some of us, that bad wolf is pretty good at feeding himself and um, and you're right, but that that complete suppression and trying to be someone we're not seems to get get a lot of people into trouble. Yeah, And I think that's where a lot of um, dark and

and bad behavior comes from. You you. Uh, people have that that dark side or the negative side, and they're so afraid of it that they push it down until eventually it does kind of show itself in in the form of bad and negative behavior. Yeah. Um, so I

know that you are. I think in our emails we talked a little bit about how you are a reader of I'm never a fan of the of the term self help books, but for lack of a better word, I'm gonna I'm gonna go with that one, and that you you tend to read some things in that in that area. Are there any books you could talk about that you've read lately that you really like or maybe just even all time favorites of yours that you've drawn

a lot from. Yeah. It's funny when when I was preparing for today, I realized that I have tons of these books. I buy them all the time, and a lot of them I have just kind of sat on the shelf, but I have read a lot of them. And I pulled a handful of the ones that I've liked recently, and so uh. One is called The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer, and that's kind of, uh, you know, kind of examining our connection to whatever you wanna call

God is such a loaded word at this point. I think that I tend not to use that word, but you know, the connection to source or where we're from or where we originated. And that's a really good one. I love that. Um. I got this book somewhere on tour and it's it's crazy, but I loved it. It's called a Journey Towards Forgiveness the Afterlife Apologies of Adolf Hitler. Go ahead. That sounds like that if I didn't know better, I would actually think that that was something you just

made up. I know it sounds insane, but it's it's you know, you you take some of these books with a grain of salt and you just kind of I just read them and see if there's anything in there that resonates with me, and this really did. And I it's obviously it's it's a guy kind of channeling Hitler on the other side, and but it's got it's got a lot of great stuff about self forgiveness and that

that sort of thing. And you know, whether or not you believe that this guy is actually in touch with Hitler. The kernels of information in there affected me and I thought they were really good. One of the first books that I really got into when I basically I got into this stuff in the in the late eighties, I um um, I was having a really dark time. I was living in Winston Salem, North Carolina, and I was playing in a band and basically we had gotten signed

to Arista Records by Clie Davis. I joined the band and two months later we get signed and I was nineteen, and one of those things where you think, everything's wow, this is exactly what I want to do. The ball is rolling. I didn't really have to pay too many dues, and I've got I'm on a major label, and then of course things went to ship pretty pretty immediately, and I just kind of found myself in this depression and I realized a lot of it was kind of rooted

in childhood. My dad had an alcohol problem when when he was when I was like fifteen, and so a lot of stuff kind of started coming up, and along with a lot of kind of church damage that I think a lot of people suffer when their kids. But the church I went to was not at all oppressive, but I just kind of developed this massive fear of

religion and dying. And so I discovered this book called We Don't Die just in the mall that I worked that I worked at a record store, and by a guy named Joel Martin, and basically it's just sort of talking about near death experiences and and that, and that was kind of the first thing that really hooked me

into this. And then I found a book by um a woman named pat pat Rhode, a guest r R O D E g A s T. And she was a she was kind of a a friend of Ram Doses and it's basically it's also a kind of channeled book too, uh, this energy called called Emmanuel. It's basically at our core, we are loved and we are love, etcetera.

And so that that kind of really got me through that this dark time, and from there I just kind of got into more and more of these books like Papagi and uh Byron Katie and Wayne Wayne Dyer and Neil Donald Walls, so all all that stuff. So you've you've got into that in an original time when you were when you were struggling a little bit in a in a dark period which which could have probably been from the label thing, or maybe just working in a mall in the record store. That might have been the

whole problem right there. It certainly was my darkest, my darkest days where we're at the record bar. They really were the only thing. It could be worse if you had to work in a guitar store. I think that might be the third level of how much later? Yeah, yeah, so so that was a period. Then you've you've you've clearly kept that interest. Has depressions been something that you have wrestled with on and off since then, and you've you've gone back to these sources as as things to

sort of help keep you keep you out of that. Yeah. And and that's why I keep all these books too, because I do actually go back to them. Even if I haven't read one of these for ten years, I'll often be compelled to go over to the bookshop and pick up the book that I read ten years ago that helped me, that I hadn't thought about in ten years. Um, So yeah, they're there, they they they help help me get get through a lot. I've I've been engaged in

therapy for the last couple of years too. That that's been very helpful, and you know, um kind of where I am. So so you brought up church damage. And one of the things I've heard you talk about before is I think you keep a list of words that you hate, the most hated words or what's it called. It's it's called word hate trademark. Okay, And I think I heard you once saying that you when you when you analyze that, you realize that an awful lot of

those words came from uh, they were from a church setting. Yes, And like I said, my church was not oppressive at all. Somehow, I just I just it never felt right to me. And uh, but a lot of these words that I don't like, and they're they're just like I just have an immediate discomfort when I hear them. And they're all kind of based in the church I went too. And they're all food related to I guess. I guess when I was a kid, they served food after the church service.

So meal I don't like, uh, covered dish, I don't like. Um, there's a I always refer to this when when Obama was inaugurated the first time he had a a brunch. There's another word. Uh. After he was he was sworn in and it's online, it's on YouTube. The I think his name was, I think Barry black was was was the minister who did the the prayer another word at this brunch and he managed to hit like twenty of

these words in his prayer. And so if you go online and you search this, you'll you'll hear twenty of the of my my least favorite words of all time, kind of just flying out there. Where's where's cold cuts? Cold? Cold cuts is in there too, which but that's that's a that's a term I rarely hear anymore. But that's that's a good one. Thank you for reminding me. That's definitely one of mine. I don't know what it is

about that word cold cuts. So what are some of the most recent entries to to word hate and and how many words are in it? You know, I've never I've never kept a full uh list, which I probably should do, but I'm kind of into the fact that I don't have a written list. Um recent ones mouth field, you know, mouth field. Yeah, I think it's food. He's use it. Yeah, that's a tough one. Um, unless it's used in in a in a in an erotic sense, then maybe we can again, we could get you could

get into mouth Field. I'm very into that then. Yes, um, my main problems right now are these these commercials that have Walt. Every commercial now has a ukulele in it. Yes, that is that is killing me. There's a lot of ukulele music on commercials, and there's a lot of ukulele music and new podcas casts. That's the other thing I've noticed it. It does seem to be does seem to be everywhere all of a sudden the last two years. And then when I hear it, I think of a

Volkswagen commercial. I don't know why, but that's what it brings up in my mind. The whistling and apping and the stomping. That's the whole thing now too. Yeah, actually we've got I think there's a ukulele in this room. We could make we could make my co host here play a ukulele song with all of the word hate words. But but see, I'm glad you brought this up because all of this, all of these things are things I need to get over, like my my I shouldn't be

bothered by this stuff. So that's that's something I'm trying to work out to why why does the ukulele bother like I take personal offense to it, like it's I take things way too personally, and and like, yeah, I take personally the fact that this ad agency approved this ukulele in this commercial. What does that? What does that say about me? I'm not sure Chris any ideas. I was wondering if there was maybe some childhood trauma involved with the ukulele. No, you know what you show me

on the ukulele where Uncle Billy touched you exactly. I think what it is is, you know, I I have a distrust of anyone that has never been in the punk rock like that that bothers me. And so this whole sort of tensification of music and stuff bothers me. Like everything is tiny now, you know, like the like the whistling in the ukulele, so it's so far away from punk that that it bothers me. I don't know

if that makes any sense. Yeah, I think what I think is interesting is when you just said that I thought about Chris was sort of acknowledging to like that sort of distrust of people who weren't into punk music, and I was thinking I used to have that a lot, and I think I still have a little bit of it, but I've spent enough time at this point, I do.

I've done a lot of different consoling works. So I've been in the in the in the corporate world on and off enough that i've sort of just it's just been worn out of me all the time of just like and realizing like, oh, yeah, that guy didn't like the replacements, and he doesn't really know who Black Flag is, but he's still a pretty decent exactly like we can have lunch. There's you know, he hasn't he hasn't committed any crime against against humanity, but it but my initial

reaction is to go there. But now that you mentioned I noticed that decreasing over time through forced exposure. One of my many problems. One of the one of the one of the bits you do as you call into Tom sharp Lain and you play a variety of of characters, one of the one of the things you go back to all the time is mispronouncing words. Is that is that tied to the to the to the word hate thing? And does he does sharp Laine have a similar aversion

We we have words. Tom will have a word that really bothers him and he will, we'll write it into a bit and then he will just he will say, I want you to say that word seven times, like I want you to say over and over again until until I just tell you to stop. I'm trying to think of an example of one of those words, um buffet exactly. Yeah. Yeah, But the the malaprop isms, I'm

not sure where that started. But there's the funniest thing to to us is someone who is dead certain of either a fact or like we're talking about, a pronunciation, and then when they're called on it, they can't believe that that they're wrong, and and oh it is hilarious, like I'll mispronounced the word and then what do you think it is? And then he'll say it. Actually. A real life version example of that was do do you know Howard Stern show? Sure, Gary, the you know, the

the assistant guy. His his nickname is Bobba Boy. And I guess the way that originated was he was he came in one day and he was talking about he had bought these these animation cells and uh, he's kind of rattling off the characters of the cells that he bought, and one of them was supposed to be Baba Louis and he pronounced he mispronounced it as Bobba Booie, and they just get on him so much for this, and

and and he eventually goes, well, what is it. It's it's Bubba Billy, right, And of course for the next thirty years or whatever he has had to suffer with this this name. Yeah, that's a stick that works remarkably well at the you know. And the other one, one of the ones you've done on the on the Best show that my kids and I were cracking up over was when you were you were a basketball coach and you were talking about Bobby Knight and Sue Knight that they were in the same thing. Yeah, oh yeah, and

you were so adamant that it absolutely was true. And it's yeah, good good stuff. Do you have a favorite uh, do you have a favorite character? Out of out of those that you play, the one that is closest to me and the one that's my natural default one to go into is is Philly Boy Roy and um, because I grew up just outside of Philadelphia, and people don't really believe believe that that's a real accent because it's obviously I do an extreme version of it. But um,

it's a that's a real accent around there. It's crazy, it's almost English. It's it's very close to Baltimore, the Baltimore accent. And so it's it's based on on a few different people that I knew when I was younger, and it's it's just it's just an easy persona to throw on. So the best show recently ended, and um, it's it seems like it really picked up a lot of steam and popularity. It ended I think at the at the peak of its popularity. And and I saw the article today, I think it was today on the

A V Club. That was a really good article about the ending. What are you guys up to now, because I think I've I've heard that you and you and Tom are onto other things in the comedy realm. Yeah, we are just just working on that right now. We've We've got a bunch of a bunch of irons in the fire, and um, we definitely want to keep the show alive in a venue that you know, that is that is a venue that we're able to actually make some money in. That was that was a thing that

was that was tough. Over the years we did this thing for thirteen years and we loved doing it, but it was kind of tough after a while. We're we're not making any anything off this at all, and and and seeing other people doing that, you know, so so finally we just decided that, you know, let's let's see if we can try it somewhere else. And we love FMU. You know, we couldn't have asked for a better a better venue to do it in. You know, who who else is gonna let us do these thirty five five

minute uninterrupted calls? You know, they're just is nowhere else that would where we could do that and reach that many people, But it just kind of reached its its end. You're you on the road pretty consistently. Yeah, Somewhere around um, two thousand and eight, I just really started it. Was it was interesting. I moved to New York City, uh to Brooklyn with with my my then girlfriend, and we

ended up splitting up. And it was right at the same time I started getting all these these gigs like Bob Moulden, the Mountain Goats and super Chunks started getting back into into business, and I was playing with Karl Newman from the New Pornographers and so since then it's been you know, five six years of touring with never more than three weeks of a break. And that's also

when my my decision to stop drinking came about. Also was during those those first couple of years of I've the NonStop touring where you know, you find yourself between loading in your gear and loading out at the end of the night. Well, I had eight drinks, you know, and and every every day for two years, and that that kind of took its toll. So that that's another reason for what we're talking about tonight, you know, the self awareness and the self and provement and and that

did you find that that drinking exacerbated? Yeah, and I realized it all. It always felt like like false happiness, you know what I mean, Like it almost felt like cheating to me to to be drunk, because you're just not dealing with your your actual problems. You're you're just kind of covering them up, and then you wake up the next day and you feel terrible, You feel terrible about yourself, and it just kind of repeats itself. And I completely understand why anybody in a rock band drinks,

you know, because it's so boring too. You're you're doing nothing for basically twenty hours a day pretty much. And so I started to really drink on on a tour that Superchunk did of Europe in nineties six, where I was just drinking to get through the day at that point, and I thought this was terrible, and that didn't force me to stop at all. But you know, it all catches up with you at some point. Yeah, I think it's it's that cycle that you talk about about over

and over and over again. I know people in my life who who drink and they go out and they've had a shitty day and they go have some drinks and they feel better, and it's fine, right. They just do it once in a while and and there's and there's nothing to it, and I don't think it stops them from getting to the things that they need to address in their life, where some of us, on the other hand, it's that desire to cover up the problems and to feel different is so strong that that it

just becomes a constant thing. Has it been a challenge for you because you are in a situation. You're in a rock and roll lifestyle, which to some degree is certainly surrounded by and and associated with yeah, you're it is like the worst possible scenario for someone who who was trying to to deal with that. You just you have free alcohol all all night long. And but I read this book by this guy named Alan Carr, who

uh English guide. He wrote a book called The Easy Way to Stop Smoking, and he wrote an alcohol one also, The Easy Way to Stop Drinking, And that kind of worked for me. I read it, and you kind of you still drink as you read this book, and then at the end of the book you have what is in theory your last drink, and coming up in June that will be five years since I finished that book.

And somehow, being around the alcohol at at clubs or whatever, it wasn't a big thing because it's more important to me to feel good, and um, I get when I started touring without it, I would get this weird high or thrill of going out in front of a couple of thousand people or whatever and playing sober I got. I got a lot of I don't know, pride, I guess coming off stage and think, wow, I did that

completely sober. Yeah. I just never stopped relate, which is which is uh, it's been easy for me, thankfully, Yeah, that's good. It's it sounds like you've got the positive reinforcement of it. My my partner here, Chris, read that book and used it to step smokes. Oh yeah. And also my dad, who I mentioned earlier. My my dad, as I said, struggled with alcoholism when I was in my teens, and he is a major success story in

a major inspiration to me. He hasn't I don't think he's had a drink since maybe eighty seven or something, so you know, he's been a real source of help and guidance. Also one of the things that at least for for myself that I know, back to the theme of feeding your good wolf or of finding positive inspiration is certain is music in general and then maybe particularly certain types of music or certain artists. Is there is there any particular musicians or bands that that give you

that same sort of feeling or that that positive inspiration. Yeah. I think like a lot of people, you you take the most inspiration and the most um excitement from the music you you liked when you were first getting into music like and so for me that would be London cong by the Class was was was the record that really just made the hugest impression on me when that when that came out, I remember buying it. I was

lucky to find a copy in New York City. I was I went there with my my mom and dad, my brother to see West Side Story and and I was able to find one copy of it that didn't have a parental sticker on it. That that album when it came out, had an offensive lyrics sticker on it, but this one didn't. So that was a record that made a huge impact on me. And and then you know, I loved um those you know when when R. A. M Started putting records, I love that stuff and who

screw do? And I'm so lucky to play with Bob Mold and I get to play a lot of those songs replacements Paul Westerberg. Um, you know a lot of that stuff. And I find myself going back to that and and those are the records that still still give me the chills. We must we must be similarly, because all those records and times pretty much pretty much ring true. How did you get started into playing music? Because you said by the time you were nineteen you had moved

to a new town to join a band. That seems like they were on their way and had a major record label deal. When and how did you get started? Well, I I just always liked um seeing bands on on TV, like like American Bandstand and and those kind of TV shows, and I always focus on the drummer. And when your kid, drums are just sort of exotic, like they look they look cool, and you just you just want to touch them and beat on them. So I took lessons for

like six months. And I didn't like the lessons because when you when you're a kid, you're just given this little drum pad and you you have to kind of do these rudiments and none of it is fun and you know, and so I stopped. But but then I still wanted to play the drums my parents. I was so lucky to have supportive parents. I come from a very non musical family. Nobody really played an instrument, and um, they gave me a drum kit when I was twelve,

and I just started playing on that. And then I started taking lessons a couple of years later, and I like that. I learned a lot there from around fourteen fifteen and then I just started playing along with records. The first record I ever played, I remember was Graham Parsons, Graham Parker squeezing out sparks. And I found out if you had headphones that we're you know, that blocked enough sound you could play along with you could hear yourself. And that's where I learned a lot of my technique

and all of that. And then just start playing in bands around Philly and then uh in eighty six, I joined this band called the Right Profile that was down in Winston Salem and quick side note, one of the founding members of that is a guy named Stephen Dubner and he co wrote the Freakonomics books, so um, he he was the guy out of all of this that did the best. That's pretty cool. Yeah, although you're not you're not doing too bad. You're you're making a making

a living, do so well. I think we're kind of around the the end of the show. Is there anything else on the the theme of the show that you would want to cover or anything in general that we haven't talked about? What's the phrase? And I it's a phrase that I always come back to when I get judgmental about someone's behavior whatever. And that is where we're all works in progress. And I think that's true about everybody. I think the key is to have a level of

self awareness. A lot of people don't seem to have that, and I think we could just be aware of how we interact with people and how we want to be treated that I think the world would be a better place. Yeah, remember remembering that the work in progress pieces really is really good. It is. Uh. It is easy to to fall into judgment, and as I've gotten older, I've realized how unpleasant that feels on the inside for me. It does, Yeah, it does. And uh. One thing I'm really working on is,

like you said, how how that feels? How do things feel? If it doesn't feel good to judge someone, It doesn't feel good to judge or to be judged, or to treat someone poorly or to be treated so you you just have to be aware of also how that makes you feel, and that will I think, dictate how you behave also hopefully exactly. Well. Thanks so much for joining us. I will be looking for to whatever the next thing

that the Worcester and Sharp Lind team do. Will have links to all your various projects and places to get your your comedy and music on our show notes. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure, all right, Thank you, Bye bye. You can learn more about John Worcester and this podcast at one you feed dot net slash Worcester. That's w U R s t e er

in case you didn't know. Also, uh, we've loved getting emails and comments from everybody, So if you can get on one, you feed dot net and contact us, let us know what you think. Thanks. This is everything that John Worster hates right here. Come over today and we'll make some crafts, will have a fellowship luncheon while we eat some snacks. You can reap the rewards of an amazing meal a covered dish casserole with good mouth field. After the luncheon, will drink a loaf of tea. You'll

be dancing in your panties with a full belly. By then you'll be nourished and feeling calm. And we'll go to the grocer and we'll buy some ball. God, I really had a shoehorn. Some of those words into their kind of made me hate myself even for doing that. I think I'm gonna go feed my bad walf just a cope. Actually, I'm gonna feed my good wolf to my bad wolf,