Joey Svendsen: Depression and Fundamentalist Christianity

hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Joey's Fencing. What happens when you grow up in a fundamentalist church and you have O c D and oppression. Well,

Joey can tell you. He grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, and received a degree in elementary education from Winthrop University in After graduation Joey taught school for five years and served as a youth minister for New Beginnings Church in James Island. His new book is Fundamentalist Stories of a mentally ill, obsessive, compulsive, legalistic youth group kid turned pastor. And here's the interview with Joey's fencing. Hi, Joey, welcome to the show. Hey man, it's good to be on here.

I'm happy to have you on. We're going to talk about depression and maybe politics and mental health and all kinds of fun stuff. But before we get into that, let's start like we always do with the parable, where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed

and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops. He thinks about it for a second and looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that

you do well. I would say that for me, I'm coming from a pretty Christian spiritual slant, So for better, for worse, for right or wrong, I think that we are in need of a of a higher spiritual source. And honestly, it just it just seems to be something that's pretty apparent in our world. You know, if you see self run wild, just the different examples of people

that have done such horrible things. And I do think that there is a place for just self discipline and you know, doing the right thing and thinking right thoughts. And I totally think there's a place for that, but at least in my own experience, and that's all I

have to go off of. If I do all of that stuff outside of a spiritual lens, that I just get super prideful and I think I'm really awesome and you know, just a top notch guy that just does awesome things and thinks all some things which leads to bad stuff in my opinion, But I I love that parable. I think it's super important our thoughts and just thinking through, hey, what are we doing from day to day? You know, that's going to make us one person or the other.

In your book, you talk about yourself when you were younger and you had the um i'd say, dual affliction of being in a very strong Pentecostal church with belief systems that, as you wrote, I think, scared the bejeebus out of you. UM. So you paired that with with O. C. D. And you've got a little of what you were describing there, which is this, I am super focused on my behavior and I am keeping score of myself and everybody else.

That's such a great point that you're bringing out, and just the dangers of focusing so much on religious rules and regulations and rights and wrongs and do this and don't do that. And I think that is a very common misconception inside and outside of the church. You know that that that seems to be what people think the vehicle of the churches is just doing the right stuff and avoiding the wrong stuff, which I believe in the spiritual element of being connected with who I feel as God,

which is Jesus. But yeah, you're right, I mean, religion really screwed me over big time. I mean, just from a very early age, I was focused on some of the good stuff, but the bad stuff, I think overshadowed the good stuff and just thinking that, you know, gosh, I gotta do this, I can't do that, and if I do this too much, then I'll screw myself over

and maybe I'll go to Hell forever. And like you said, pairing that with O. C D and irrational thinking, I mean, gosh, I could give you examples that would make your jaw drop. I mean just the crazy stuff that I thought and how it played out in my head. I mean into the early years of my marriage. I mean I got married in two thousand two and still was battling a lot of stuff. I remember, you know, sharing some of the stuff with my wife and uh that was that

was that was a moment there. Yeah, certainly lots of prayer checklists and uh yeah, and you know, rigid adherents. You know, we had Richard Roron recently. May or may

not have heard of him. He's a he's a Catholic priest, more on the mystical side, but he talks about that same idea that you know, this idea of what he calls him the hot sins, you know, the sex, the pornography, that drinking, that like, that's the most basic level, and that that's where a lot of people get stuck in religion and not getting onto the deeper uh connection, you know.

And and so I'm not a Christian, but I strongly believe in a spiritual life, and I strongly believe that our connection to things, whether those things be our internal, higher self external things, that the connection is is really a huge part of the game. And rigid behavior really doesn't foster that. Now, it can get in the way of it if you're out of control, but just by having that under control does not necessarily mean the rest

of its work. Yeah. And the thing with Christianity too, is and I'm speaking from a standpoint of you know, I'm not the sort of Christian that says I'm sure that I am right and everybody else is wrong. I mean, bottom line is I have faith, but I don't know. I mean until until we die, I don't think that we can know. But if you take Christianity and it's purest form the rigid us and don't and all of that stuff is just so contrary to what Jesus stood

for in the first place. I mean, he was just like, hey, just just follow me and I'll take care of the rest. You know, I'm not condemning you anymore. I'm not judging you anymore, which is just crazy, because that sort of stuff is what screwed me over, stuff that was anti Jesus. I mean, here, I am being brought up in a church, and the stuff that I was being taught and stuff that was just wreaking havoc on my brain. Literally was stuff that Christianity doesn't even entail, you know, just super

backwards approach. But you found your way through that and didn't become disillusioned with all religion. You're you're a pastor, so so you found you know, I think a lot of people end up being driven away by some of the things you're talking about. In your case, you managed to uh. I guess I'm not sure what the right word is, transform or overcome, but but find a way to find a Christianity that that works for you. And here here here again for me, it's uh, I know

that what I like like, I like to preface. My friends make fun of me for preffing so much. So. None of these statements are intended to be like evangelistic.

I'm trying to save people's statements. This is personal reflections, So for me personally, there have been times in the past even few years, and I've been a pastor now for nine years, and there's been times where I've just been literally scared out of my mind, just like, gosh, I don't there's so many doubts, so many questions, so many things that I'm unsure of and not sure of anymore. And I've said this a thousand times on our Bad Christian podcast, so they're sick of hearing it. But I

literally have felt the craziest piece come over me. And I didn't ask for it. I didn't meditate, I didn't sit there, you know, trying to train my thoughts to go into like a peaceful place. It just came over me. And to me, that's everything that I've ever thought of as far as Jesus like. So for me, that's the personal relationship with Jesus, as far as him saying, hey, I'm with you. You don't have the fear any of this this stuff, like where you're at and your questions

and your thoughts, it's all good. Just relax, everything's cool. And then honestly, that piece goes away like it's almost like a father patent his son on the head. Saying hey, it's okay, chill out, you're good, don't worry about it, and you know I'm with you. But I'm not always gonna reveal myself to you in this way. So that's really what's kept me going. I mean, honestly, there there have been times, uh that you know, I've been super scared as a as a pastor so yeah, A couple

of thoughts on that. I mean, one is I think regardless of again using different terms, but I've become more convinced as time has gone on. I used to think differently. We talked earlier about making effort towards rigid behavior. I think I went from that to thinking on some level that if I meditated enough, if I got my thoughts

right enough. But as time has gone on, I've started to recognize some element of I think the word you know, you could use the word grace or you know, for me, I was you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic and addict and and a a you know, you've got this thing where you're turning your will and your life over right, And I had these moments where I was like, what am I turning my will in my life over to and for me, I realized it almost didn't matter, right.

It was me letting go of clenching so tightly to everything that if I let go, and I think spiritual practice for me, I'm recognizing a little bit more of that too, Like okay, and I'm always on this show kind of asking the question about like how do you strive and want to be a better person and live a better life, and also except where you are, except who you are, and enjoy the life you have. Like

those things seem to be a balancing act. You know, Honestly, I don't wanna just any other beliefs or wherever, but I feel like, however people believe and however they are moving along in their life journey, if it's moving closer to feeling bad about themselves and feeling more constricted and more bondage, I'm just I feel like I'm comfortable with saying, hey, I think that's wrong, which is so ironic because that's typically a lot of church circles pushes people in that direction.

And again I'll restate, I don't feel like that's what Jesus about at all, But I mean, any any time people are are moving towards more freedom, I'm just like, gosh, that's because honestly, as humans, can't we all understand, Hey, we're all pretty jacked up. And so let's let ourselves off the hook a little bit and realize that we're jacked up, and let's accept that, and now let's move on and let ourselves off the hook, not beat ourselves up all the time, and just be like, Okay, I'm trying.

I mean, God help me, I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to do what I can do. Each day. I'm taking one day at a time. I'm going to mess up, and all I can say is I'm trying. Yep. I love not being a Christian but living in a country that has a tremendous you know, Christianity still is a major part of this country. I love seeing guys like you and Science Mike and Richard Roar, you know, talking about a Christianity that really resonates strongly with me and

really seems like a sane version of it. It's just it's I mean, it's just so nice to see it, you know. And I love the doubt piece that you guys are bringing in this I don't know all the answers um and I don't have to know all the answers in order to engage in a practice in a way of life. Yeah, I mean, and some of the stuff that I struggled with growing up, there's actually a

scientific terminology. It's called scrupulosity. And I was from my book I was researching and stumbled upon this, And when I was reading the depictions and and people's personal autobiographical the depiction of just how their thoughts operated for years and years and years of their lives, I was like, oh my gosh, Like, there are lots of people out there like me. Now I will say they they say that's one of the rarest forms of O c D.

But still the fact that there's terminology for it. You know, we're talking thousands, tens of thousands of people at least that have these sorts of struggles and it's just insane. And and I think what I have, part of part of the freedom I found, is realizing just how much science plays a role in this. Like it's a lot of my problems weren't spiritual. A lot of my problems were that I I had trained with other people's helped and I use that help word loosely, but I trained

my brain to mess me up. You know, I trained my brain to think thoughts of of of bondage and beating myself up and and fear, constant fear, and uh, you know O c D thoughts and irrational thoughts and all that stuff. And so my brain had been trained year after year after year after year, and I had to relearn and I think really recognize saying okay, is it in just a spiritual matter? My brain is an organ that operates, and it gets used to certain things.

And you have three training. That's why counselors are so important, and people that are experts in the psychology field because they can help you on tie some of those knots. If you value the content we put out each week, then we need your help. As the show has grown, so have our expenses and time commitment. Go to one you feed dot net slash support and make a monthly donation. Our goal is to get to five of our listeners

supporting the show. Please be part of the five percent that make a contribution and allow us to keep putting out these interviews and ideas. We really need your help to make the show sustainable and long lasting. Again, that's one you feed dot net slash support. Thank you in advance for your help. I saw a comedian the other night, Brian Reagan, who said something like he introduced the topic of the presidency, and he said, I've never been so

scared to talk about anything in my entire life. Right, this is a loaded time, and so I don't want to get into politics. But I do want to talk about a couple of things that I've heard you say, because they resonate a lot with me. I despite what concerns I might have about what's happening politically, I am more worried about how we're acting towards each other and treating each other. And I heard you say my goal is to be part of the catalyst for unity, listening

in mutual understanding. We're all right on some things and we're all wrong on some things. Yeah, I mean, because if if we think about it, I mean, come on, and like when Obama was president, you had just now, let me back up a little bit. Trump is an enigma. I mean, Trump is kind of an exception in my opinion, to you know, the Bush haters and the Obama haters. I mean, Trump is like, oh my gosh, this right right, But let's look through history. I mean, you had people

that just hated George Bush. I mean just I think at that point you could say that was the most polarized our country has ever been at that point in time. And uh, you know, maybe maybe it just remained consistent with Obama. I don't think it. I don't think it was more polarized, maybe a little less, but um, just throughout our country and what what's really changed? I mean, what did Obama really just jack up our country? I mean, are we are we now seeing the demise of America?

Are we in a second great depression? You know, when George Bush was president, the things just completely fall apart of me. Nine eleven happened. Seems like things should have following apart. And it's just like, I love America. I don't think America is like this great above reproach country. But I'm an American. I I love what are you know soldiers have done in the past. As far as fighting, you know, my grandpa fought in War two, at least in his mind was it was a good cause. People

gave their lives up. So I feel like I'm even patriotic. But as far as our country being above reproach and not doing evil. That's stupid thought. So along the way, I mean, our country has kind of been just staying

on the same level. And so what I don't understand is how people can't see that we are what makes the country like, it's the people, and despite what's going on in the government, if we can't figure out how to coexist and we can't figure out how to love one another and have conversations, I mean, once the conversation ends to where one side cannot hear the other side and the other side can't hear the other, it's it's like, well,

wait a second, that's dangerous territory. I mean, I mean, is it is it out of the question to think that there could be a civil war at some point? I don't know. I mean it sounds crazy and barbaric, but it's like people are so stupid to think that they are a hundred percent correct and the other side is a wrong. I mean, to me, that is ignorance at its highest level. To assume your beliefs are hundred percent right and everybody else there dumbasses. I mean, that's

just the stupidest thing I've ever heard my life. It doesn't make sense. Yeah, the thing I've seen and that I find most disturbing, and I'm going to quote you in a minute to back it up, is I just think that each side keeps picking out the worst example of the other side and using it as the example of the other side. You know, and you said, assuming that all voters for Trump are racist and all voters for Hillary, you know, love killing babies, that's what we're doing.

We're picking the worst example of the other side and using that. And as long as we keep doing that, of course those people are despicable right now. And you know, you get too far on the extreme on either side, and I think you find you know, you find problems. But I'm just so concerned about our inability to dialogue about it in a you know, semi rational way. And I think that the more angry everybody gets about their side,

the more entrenched the other side gets. And and so I just really appreciated kind of hearing some of the things you you said about it, because I think you were you know, we're coming from kind of the same place on that, which is like we got to find a way to you know, move together and listen to each other. And and you know, assume positive intent, you know. Is that's a big thing that I found in my

life is to try and assume positive intent. Now again, you know, I think that there are times that that is challenging and depending on your views, but I agree with you. I think the solution is going to come from, you know, us finding ways to to talk to each other better. And I will say that I think part of the major problem with our country right now, in this season of our country, is just this crazy fear

of what Trump is capable of doing. And I just happened to have a little more faith in our structure and in our people and in Republicans and in Democrats that no one's going to let Trump cross those lines that everybody fears. I mean, do you really, I mean, people have mentioned this guy is capable of doing what Adolph Hitler. I'm like, give me a break. Do you not think that his own party would ever even be like, dude, you and sorry, we're gonna get you impeached like you

are you are crossing some dangerous territory. No, no, sir, we are not allowing this. I mean, but people really do just let their thoughts go wild and think, man, this guy is capable of doing the worst stuff ever. I tend to agree with you. I see a lot of behavior that really frightens me, trying to silence the press, trying to do all that. But but if you think of where Nazi Germany was, right, they were in a

whole different place than we are. They had a government that was barely functioning at all, and it had just been erected, right. They were like in the Great Depression after having lost the war. I mean, it was a disaster over there, you know. And I tend to agree with you. I think that we as a country and our structural systems are strong enough now. I think unfortunately, a lot of individual lives get caught in the crossfire while we sorted out, and that's that's unfortunate and and

hard to watch. But I tend to have your optimism too, that says, hey, you know, in the long run, this is gonna be a blip on the radar. But you know, like I said, there are people now, who are you know, feeling some of some of the impacts. I was in uh New Mexico last week, and you see these signs along the road encouraging people to make sure that they have power attorney for their children in case, you know, they're deported to marrow. That's just hard to see that

kind of thing. So anyway, all right, let's get off that subject. That was I hesitate to wait in, but I liked your your approach, So let's talk about another of my favorite topics, which is depression. So you're man, you're a dude. That's your favorite I know now. I I say that tongue in cheek, but it does come up a fair amount on the show, given given my background,

and and you've got a similar one. And I wanted to talk about depression in the sense that I'm gonna just read something you wrote because I think it's interesting. And I wrestle with this question, which is all I know is everything is negative, and I'm back up on that dock, gasping for air in the storm clouds roll in. There's nothing else I can do. So I waited out,

knowing this storm won't last forever. I may be wrong to see it this way, but I haven't found a solution, and I have learned to start treating about the depression very similarly. I almost think of him as like having the emotional flu like it just comes and I'm gonna hang in there and it's gonna go away. But I think in reading your book, I think you've got the same sort of a little bit of that seems to be the most tenable and useful approach, And yet is

there something more I should be doing? Yeah, you know that book was written. A lot of that subject matter and content was written a year ago, and I think that I've learned a lot since then. But yeah, most of that, I'm I'm still at that place of of seeing depression in this light. And what I'd say about that is there are times when I truly believe that there's not a whole hell of a lot I can do with my depression is just there and I can't

do anything about it. And I would I would put that in the same category as you get the stomach bug and you start throwing up. You can't just say, Okay, I'm going to start doing some different tricks with my stomach to knock this out right now. Now, you just have it, and you've got to figure out how to get through it. Uh and and and when it's over, it's over. Now. Before getting the stomach bug, if you

know what's going around, you can wash your hands. You can stay away from the person that has it, and you can do all sorts of stuff to keep yourself from it, just like I believe there are ways of helping your brain stay away from these pits of depression and those sorts of things. But I really believe, at least for me, that that there's some chemical stuff. And and I'll go so far as to say, maybe you

can always figure out how to avoid depression. Maybe that's true, But bottom line is, I don't think any of us is smart enough to to know always how to navigate our brains from from going in a certain direction. So when I'm there, I've struggled with depression for long enough to know and and it's actually pretty encouraging. I'm like, Okay, I know that I'm depressed right now. I know my outlook on life is not really how Joey sees Lie.

I know the stuff that's making me sad when my depression is over is not going to make me sad. I just need to ride this out and accept the fact that my brain is not operating right. And that's that's actually brought me a lot of peace. Where early on, when I was struggling with depression. I didn't have that insight. I just I was totally convinced. No. The way that I'm thinking right now is reality that that was tough. That was really tough stuff. Yeah, I I love everything

you just said there. I love the analogy of I've used the one of the emotional flu a lot. I love the analogy you made about what you can do in a preventative sense, and I agree. I think one of the mysteries or the things in paradox or things is difficult about depression is, on one hand, it happens to you, and it's very hard to deal with and and you know, you had a great line which was

basically something along. You know, it's hard to properly evaluate a situation when your brain is the problem, right, And so once you're in depression, there are some very difficult like you said, it's very can be very difficult to

get out of. I also believe at the same time that we are responsible for dealing with our depression, and I think there are things that we can do that make it more likely, like you said, that we're you know, for me, if I'm exercising regularly, if I'm meditating regularly, I have a much better chance. If I'm connecting to friends, I've had a much better chance of staying out of those pits. When I stopped doing that stuff, I usually will find my way into you know, feeling kind of

kind of lousy. But I love your attitude of you know what, I could be all wrong about depression, right like, this is what I this is the best I've come up with right now, this is what I've learned, this is what I think, and you know what I I could uh, I could be wrong, And I think that's a great way to to have humility about looking at it.

And so I always try and strike that line too of I don't want to make a big rucus about this, right because you know, in the middle of depression is not the time to start evaluating the entire direction of your life, right. But that's what it feels like, you know. And so it's like I want to write it out as sort of you know, the cold of the flu, and yet at the same time, there is more to it,

and how can I be working on those things? And so much of what you wrote kind of hit home with me as far as what my experience has been in the ways that I found to sort of stop it from being such a huge deal, you know, And I think being sick is a great analogy because when you feel sick, you're just kind of like, you know, everything looks crappy, And that's been a big relief to me. You say, don't ever assume a depressed person is slacking

on troubleshooting their problem. Remember, depressed people are mentally and emotionally crippled and may not have the strength to do what is obvious to you. Instead, have some grace. Yeah, the two sides of that is if you are depressed and people are not adhering to those instructions, we also have to have grace for them because we have to we have to realize that we're hurting people. We're hurting,

but our hurt is also hurting other people. And you know, but I do you know, let's let's camp out on that though is you know, if you know someone that's depressed, I mean, just just you gotta think about the brain as a physical organ and so make the jump of Okay, if this guy had a broken leg and we had plans to play flag football Saturday, I wouldn't be piste at him because he wasn't able to play. I'd be like, well, that sucks, you have a broken leg, so are you

gonna miss out on flag football? And it's it's one of those things to where you have to realize that if if the brain is a physical organ, then there has to be some things that that person who's struggling with depression is just is just unable to do. And just like you don't assume you know the person with the broken leg, you're not assuming oh, you're not doing anything, you know to get better. The responses yes, i am. I'm sitting here, I'm relaxing my leg. I'm trying, you know,

not not to walk on it and everything. Tough thing though, is when it has to do with the mind, it's just not a tangible thing that you can evaluate as far as how hard someone is trying. But you might as well give them the benefit of the doubt. And you know, unless you're super close to the person and you can tell, man, you you're not you're not making any progress. You're not even seeking counsel, you're not seeking medication,

you're not doing anything. I'm your friend. I think you really need to, you know, take some steps and reaching out to someone. Yeah, that is such a tricky line. You're right, because you know, I know for me, you know, one of my favorite phrases is depression hates a moving target, right, and yet sometimes that is the hardest thing to be

as a moving target when you're when you're depressed. And so I find that as someone who suffers from depression and who also has several people in my life who also have depression, that you know, I can find myself getting that feeling towards them, like, hey, come on, you can you know, it's just so funny how how hard

it is to deal with that gracefully. And I really like what you say about being graceful towards the people who don't understand it also, but I think, you know, like you said, assume give them the benefit of doubt or assume positive intent was saying it. Yeah, And oddly enough, I think that's that's the trick with all relationships. And we were just talking about politics for a second a little while ago, and that's the same solution with politics is the same solution with this, and I think that's

pretty much universal. Try to be more understanding and realize, hey, that is a different person than me with a different brain a different background, different relationships, and assume that you don't get the full picture before you start making judgment calls and with the press. And it couldn't be anymore true. It's just like, don't size a person up and just assume, oh, you're not stepping up to the play. You need to suck it up. You know, you need to be stronger

than this. I mean, those are just maddening. It's like you can't say that to someone because it it makes the it makes the statement that you understand them more than they understand themselves. And that's just ludicrous. Yep. As you were talking earlier in this being open to not knowing a lot about depression, and I think depression is like addiction in that it is an extremely complex syndrome. There are so many factors and and when I was early on in recovery, I think I was arrogant enough

to think like I know how to do it. I know how to get people, you know, get sober, and and you know, twenty years later, I am probably less sure than I've ever been about what the driving forces are in addiction. It is just such a mystery. And and we make progress, but as we make progress, we realize how much we don't know, and I think depression is similar. There's oh many factors, so many contributors, UM that you know, having a having an open mind towards Hey,

there's always more to learn here. I'd be curious. So you wrote the book, what sort of things have you thought about depression that are maybe different than what was in the book. Yeah, I don't think there's anything super concrete. I go back and forth with the whole question of

how much control do we have? And I remember when I was writing the book, it was a very fresh idea and it was super humbling to admit this because I had always been a pretty defensive person about my depression and you know, kind of like defending myself and saying, I know, I know what I'm talking about, blah blah blah, and that stuff isn't helpful. But I think as I was writing the book, it was it was during a time where I was just like, wait a second, I think I do have a little more say in which

direction my brain goes and where my thoughts go. Because every seven years are our church UM requires pastors to go on a month sabbatical in the place where they send you. You get some free counseling. And it's a super gifted psychologist that I talked to, and he was so helpful and and opening my eyes just to the ways my brain goes, and he's just I mean, helping me see those those just aren't those aren't right, those aren't good thoughts. And so obviously that's going to open

my eyes to be like, whoa wait a second. If this guy showed me that in like three hours, what are some other things I'm missing? And so and you know, I was using that sabbatical to write this book. So I was like, man, this is this is crazy. But that's that's what I go up and down on. I do think we have more control than I originally thought, but I also am I am at a place where I think there's sometimes it's just like there's nothing we can do. But I think that fluctuates. Yeah, I don't

think I'll ever know. I don't I'm not sure if if we can ever know how much control we have

over our depression. Yeah, And I think depression has, you know, different levels of severity, right like you know, I know people who have had, you know, depression that makes mine look like a stroll in the park, and so I'm always hesitant to be like, well, exercise and eating right will do it for you, you know, Like I know for me, I have discovered for myself the levers that I can pull that help, and I'm I'm always looking

for new ones to pull. So, you know, I believe it false for myself somewhere in that middle ground of I do have some control, and then there are some things that are not in my control. And and sometimes that goalpost might even move, you know, this year versus last year. So it is a big mystery. We're nearing the end of time. But I wanted to touch on one more thing that you talked about in your book. And I really like this. So you know, you're a pastor and you're being open about all this stuff is

is remarkable, right, and I think it's wonderful. Um you being open about the struggles and how life isn't easy. You talk about how to be open. You've got some things in the end of the book. I think they might be for discussion groups, right, and you describe here's being open and here's not. So I'm just going to read these to you, you know, so this is being open. I'm beginning to realize I rarely think I'm wrong, and I end up belittling my life when we argue, I

feel like crap about it, but feels so defensive. I don't know what to do about it. So that's one way of sharing and in a useful way. And then you talk about the other way, which is this, I struggle with pride. And I loved that because the difference between those two things is really big. Like I used to be so good at telling you about what I struggle with when I'm not struggling with it, you know, after I figured out the answer, you know, I struggle

with pride. But then what I did was that that earlier statement is so much harder to do and yet so much more valuable for us. And the people were around totally totally. Yeah. It tickles maybe because when when a bunch of Christians are together and they're like, hey, man, let's let's be transparent, let's open up, let's share struggles. When someone says, yeah, I'm really struggling with pride, I just want to say, like, ship, like everybody struggles with pride?

Are you kidding me? Like can you get a little more specific, like what how does that impact your life. I mean, you show me someone that doesn't struggle with pride, and I'll say, well, they're prideful for thinking that they don't struggle with pride. I mean, it's just crazy, but yeah, I mean, I um, I think the differences in those two statements is obviously that's easy to say I start

with pride, Yeah, we all do. But man, that's not easy to say, Yeah, because of my pride, I belittle the person that I should be the most loving with. That's two different things, because you're being vulnerable in a way of here's what it looks like behind closed doors nobody else sees, and you wouldn't know unless I'm telling you right now. That's that's transparency, and that's being open,

not just uh. And honestly, maybe somebody would say, well, if you admit to uh, you know, wherever your beliefs lie, you probably see even this um subject matter differently. But you know, most Christians would say, you know, lusting after other people sexually, you know, would be a sin. So it would be easy for a guy to say, yeah, I've been having a hard time, you know, not keeping my eyes off women and and that sort of thing. Totally different story. To say yes, I actually last night

looked at pornography and masturbated to it. And that's the latter is transparency. The former is just like, Okay, that that wasn't you know, too hard to say, But that's the jacked up thing about Christianity, and honestly a lot of pastors is the inability or unwillingness to be open, because then pastors set themselves up to be this guy

that everybody's aspiring to be like, and they're fake. So it's just like all the the whole congregation is like, well, that's what we need to be more like, and it's like, yeah, but that guy's not even how you think that they are. And then when they fall into like this big scandal or you know, their sins are revealed and everything hits the fan and you're just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe. That's just like, well, why did you think

that person was perfect? Like that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people want easy answers, and so it's lovely to see somebody who seems to have it all together and that's the convenient story. But I think for people who are really trying to change and be different. The type of openness that you're showing is really so much more valuable in living a real life. Now, some people are not gonna like it, right, A lot

of people just don't want to go there. They don't want you to go there, and they don't want to go there, and that's fine, But I think the value of that, that real openness about what's going on is so useful. I mean, I think, you know, I get lots of letters and notes about our show, I mean from people who are really in a hard place, you know, and this does so much for him. And I think some of it is just knowing you're not alone in

this stuff. Yeah, community is something I think that we all need, and even we're kind of in a technological age, and so I think a lot of people would be so quick to say, well, that's super shallow, like listening to a podcast, that's that's not real community. I'm like,

I mean, who who's to say that? Is? Actually, like you said, just the just knowing that someone else is going through similar things, I mean, gives you so much strength and and so much piece not you know, I I would encourage people to actually find, you know, relationships that could even go a little deeper, but for sure that is very helpful to to hear that sort of thing.

I love what you're doing because depression is definitely, you know, mental illness is definitely one of those things that it's just so taboo and people don't want to talk about, especially if if they're going through it. You know, it's one thing for experts that have studied it to say, well, here's how certain things work, and here's what a schizophrenic person is and all that, But to actually be a schizophrenic and say here's what I deal with on a

day to day. There's just not enough of that. And it's the ones like me who do struggle with mental illness and our reluctance to share, but it's also everybody else. It's hey, I you know, people are reluctant to share because of how you're gonna respond. You're going to see them as as lesser humans and freaks and outcast and so it's just the cycle that feeds into each other that need needs to stop. Yeah, yeah, I agree, And I love all the work that you're doing and the

Christian stuff and all that. So I've had an absolute blast talking man. Uh I could do it a lot longer, but we are. We are at the end of time, so thanks so much for coming on the show. We will have links to your podcast, your homepage, all that stuff in the show notes if anybody wants to visit, and um, thanks appreciate it. Yeah, man's good talking to you, all right, take care bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to

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