Jacqueline Suskin on Poetry in Everyday Life

good for our well being. So if you'd like help working on any or all of those things, I've got a couple of spots that have just opened up in my one on one coaching practice. You can book a free thirty minute call to talk with me, no pressure,

and we get to know each other. At One You Feed dot net slash coach, darkness is actually a beautiful teacher and usually is the thing that consistently guides us to, Oh, this is where we have a wound, this is where we need to heal, and that ends up being this really positive, transformative place. Welcome to the One you Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the

thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life

worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guests on this episode is Jacqueline Suskin. She's a poet, educator, and author of many books and collections, but is perhaps best known for her project Poem Store. Jacqueline composes improvisational poetry for patrons who choose a topic in exchange for a unique verse.

Poem Store has been her main occupation since two thousand nine and has taken her around the world, writing nearly forty thou spontaneous poems. On this episode, Jacqueline and Eric discuss her book Every Day as a Poem, Find Clarity, fuel relief, and see beauty in every moment. Hi, Jacqueline, Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me I'm excited to discuss your latest book, which is called every Day is a poem find clarity, feel relief, and see beauty

in every moment. But before we get into that, we'll start, like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grand otter stops and she thinks about it for a second. She looks up at her

grandma and she said, Grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Yeah, And what I find most interesting about it. I think there's so many ways to look at the practice of

feeding which wolf. You know, what choices you make as a person when you turn towards either of these wolves inside of you, and the sort of balance of you have to have, the lesson of what it feels like to feed. Maybe we'll call the bad wolf, you know, the hungry greed of the world, and how much of this society that we're living in now actually perpetuates that and asks you to feed that and kind of reflects back to you all the time, this is what you

should be doing. You know. It's good to be on top,

it's good to feed the desire for more. And I think as an artist, all of my work sort of trying to lean towards showing that that actually is a choice and that we have been told for so long now that we don't have a choice and that this is the only way, and so many things that are kind of in our face every day are pre prescribed for feeding this bad wolf, like this is the only way to get ahead, the only way to you know, succeed in this world is to feed this negative wolf.

And the truth is it's actually the opposite of that, and that that perpetual cycle is something I love to address in my work to kind of return people back to the other wolf, this other source that also resides inside of them, and that is to you know, notice beauty and see the world in all of its magical detail and remember everything that is there for us that is the antithesis of this weight that this other wolf carries.

So I love the kind of play off of here all the lessons you're taught in your life that maybe support the negative habit of feeding this awful wolf, and then here is everything else that kind of comes through artistry, as these reminders that no, you can turn back, you can make a different choice. You don't have to follow this pack. You know you can. You can make your own way, and that can be a way of beauty.

I love that, and it makes me think of your poems Store, which I'm just going to describe quickly to listeners so that then I can make the point I want to make here, which is your poem Store is basically you would go out in public and just write poems for people as they would come up to you and they'd say, here's the subject I want, and you would write a poem. I think you've said you've done over forty thousand spontaneous poems this way, which is just staggering.

But what caught my interest in your book is you talked about the regardless of what they came to you with. There were two things that caught my attention. One was you said, you know, just the striking similarity over and over and over and over about what us humans care about. And I think that ties to the wolf parable a

little bit, in that we're all that way. But the second part, which ties more to the point you just made, is that you found as you wrote these poems for people that a natural positivity sort of emerged from them. And I don't think it's a Pollyanna thing on your part, because you you embrace darkness, but there's something about when you're channeling whatever this muse is out to other people, it naturally seems to come out, almost as if the

good wolf is typing the poem. Yeah. And I like to come back to that word darkness because when I was thinking about this wolf parable and what we would talk about, I thought very carefully about not using the

word dark to describe the other wolf. I was considering, that's not how I want to address this wolf, because darkness is actually a beautiful teacher and usually is the thing that consistently guides us to, oh, this is where we have a wound, this is where we need to heal, and that ends up being this really positive, transformative place.

But I do think that looking at the wolf as the bad wolf, and this place of hatred and greed and fear, and that these things, you know, they can stand as either flags within us to show us where to turn. And that that's often what my poems do as they show people, oh, this is your source to pull from. Like let's say someone wants to get a

poem about anxiety. I'm not going to write about the horror of anxiety only I'm going to write about how it's this flag within us that leads us to this other work of figuring out you know, what is underneath our fears? Where do these things come from? And that is the stuff of life, you know, the root of all of our pain and suffering, the root of what causes us to feel greed and what causes us to want more in this really negative way is actually, you know,

the source of maybe our life's work. So that ends up being this really beutiful exploration if we can get there, and a lot of times that's I think what poetry does is it helps us get there. It helps us bridge the gap between this negative place, this relentless pain that we feel, the suffering of the world, and then move over this bridge to see, oh, this links to

a greater possibility, because that's what humans have. We have this amazing possibility and potential in us to kind of expand and keep these ideas growing instead of just turning back towards the thing that hurts us. And I think that choice is kind of built into art because art asks us to make the choice. Art is what reminds us to make the choice. And so I really see

that in these moments where I write people poems. It was not an intentional thing to say I'm going to go in public and sit down and write these positive poems for people, but it was just what was asked of me was to listen to their pain, to listen to their stories, to listen to the man who's committed adultery, to listen to the woman who saw has just committed suicide, to listen to all these people who are suffering and

be able to see in them. Oh, this is actually your doorway to the light, Like this is your place where you get to choose the good wolf and you

get to feed this And it's a choice. It's a moment where you say I'm going to either take this pain and let it be the impetus to feed this negative wolf inside of me who wants me to be full of hatred, who wants me to hate myself, or I'm going to make the choice to feed this other wolf and use my pain as kind of my fuel, as a seed for something else that will then help other people, or help even just you know, myself in

my own life. Yeah, as you were saying that, it really made me think about art and my relationship to art. And there were periods in my life, really dark periods before I learned to transform the darkness into something more redemptive. Before I learned to do that, I was attracted to art that was just dark. It just showed the problems.

And I've found that since I have learned. I don't mean to make it sound like I just easily transformed difficult things into easy things, that the fact that they're difficult is what makes them so rich with opportunity. But I found that since I was able to do that in certain situations in my life, my relationship to art has really changed. And I'm looking for art that has both. You know, if it only has one, if it just has like, hey, everything's great, it doesn't do anything for me.

If it only has the darkness. Now, it doesn't do anything for me. It's the art that bridges the two. That is what now speaks to me and what I turned towards and want and crave. Well, that makes sense to me also in this way of as all of this art in the world, dark or light holds great meaning because it allows people to open different doors and themselves at different times. And maybe just the pure darkness represented in some artwork is just what one needs in

a moment to feel seen and heard and understood. And they say, oh, that person knows the darkness just as I do, and they didn't try to transform it into something greater. But there is this alchemy in certain art, and a lot of poetry does this where it takes this macro giant feeling that we can all maybe relate to on some level and spins it into something micro. It takes it down to the smallest detail and makes it personal. And that work is really hard to do.

It's an alchemy. It's a specific skill set to be able to kind of take this great, grand, universal, deep abstract feeling and bring it down and weave it into something really intricate and personal. And I think on the

spectrum of dark to light. That just can go back and forth and back and forth, but all of it has such merit because wherever we're at in our own process, like wherever we find ourselves when we're standing in front of a poet on the street who wants to write a poem about us, whether it's in a celebratory eight or a state of deep grief, there's something there for us.

And I think that's that's the thing, is that you know, in between these two wolves is this great choice that you have to make, and that is what needs to be sort of filled up again and again, the energy it takes to make that choice. And then I think a lot of times that that's what poetry and artwork

gives to us. Is that energy, is that reflection or affirmation like yes, I see you, you are there, We are the same, We are processing these horrible and amazing things all at once, and we do have the energy to continue to do that. Life is working, it's happening.

And oftentimes when I write these poems for people, I can just see so clearly that all they needed was someone to reflect themselves back to them, and so the poem does that and it shows them how beautiful they are, how brave they are, how wise they are, how you know, curious they are to even be standing there in the first place, and the words kind of hold and cradle that feeling. But that feeling is really what they're looking for, and all the many ways that we can deliver that

feeling to people. I think that alchemy is what kind of takes it from this like dark place to a place that is accessible and has answers or you know, just the brilliance alone isn't enough. It has to have some sort of explanation to allow people to feel welcome in it or something like that. Yeah, that's really well said.

I don't know if I heard you talk about it in one of your books or I read it in an interview, but talking about this idea of holding these two opposites, you know, being able to hold in this case, we're using the terms darkness and light. We could use hundreds of different terms, but being able to hold the terrible and the wonderful, being able to have a space

that does that. And I guess that's kind of to my point about the art that really sustains me and really interests me, it's that art's able to hold both those positions, And it's honestly what sustains me in spirituality and in personal develop work and everything is that it's the and between those two things. I've heard you speak well to that point. Yeah, I usually talk about a sense of awe when I'm talking about holding those things, because the word awe has fear and wonder built in.

It's being in this state of reverence with fear and wonder at the same time. You know, typically we think of the sense of fear as sort of a negative or a bad thing, but then when you think of it in the context of awe, it kind of illuminates this whole other aspect of fear, which is like, yes, this is all impermanent, this will all end, this will all change and shift, and the fear can be synonymous

with the wonder of it. You know, you can be afraid that it will all end, but at the same time be completely in awe of the fact that that you get to experience it at all. So I think the and is really the catch for me as well.

I do think that again, coming back to what I started with with this bad wolf inside of us, is this choice we have to make between these two things it's not always up to us how powerful that choice really is, because there's so much outside force coming in through media, through advertisement, through our society telling us really to turn towards this bad wolf. And honestly, a lot of times I think it's made out that way, and

it's even easier to do that. It's easier to fall into the bad wolf and just to be angry and greedy and come from a place of hate because it's reinforced. So then there are all of these artists and healers and spiritual workers and and you know, journalists and people who are trying to counterbalance that, who are trying to say, actually, like you can feed this other wolf, and you probably will be way happier if you feed this better wolf.

You know, it will be better for you. That's a a strong piece of work in the world to have to consistently come up against and recognize as just people, not even artists or anyone doing this work, just singular people every day realizing how much is against us, you know, how much we're being inundated with just all these ads and constant information that kind of don't nurture this loving, caring, kind spirit. They tell us we have to have tenacity.

We have to have sharp teeth. We have to bite back, we have to claw our way to the top. We have to fight for what we believe in and it's true to some extent, but it doesn't have to be that way, right right, Yes, tenacity is important, but a different type. Let's talk a little bit more about all. What you were just saying about All with Wonder and Fear is really interesting. It just made me think of do you know the artist Jason is Belli's a musician.

Don't You should check this out afterwards. It's a song called if We Were Vampires, and the song is all about he's describing his wife and he's saying, you know, it's not all these incredible things about you. I mean, those are important, but it's the fact that this is going to end that makes this so poignant. You know. In the line is if we were vampires and we

lived forever, what would matter? You should listen to. It's a gorgeous song, but it made me think of that when you were describing the fear in all I think the other part of the fear and awe sometimes is just, yeah, the impermanence and just the sheer massiveness of everything brings on all, but it's an all that has a tinge of wonder and a twinge of fear, right because there's so much unknown built into that. You know, there's so much of the void that our human brains can hardly

even begin to comprehend. And that can be terrifying because we're so built to know. We want to know. We have this driving force to create meaning and make things make sense and understand the world. But the truth is is that there's this massive unknown in front of us constantly in every situation, and that is rifying, but it's also incredible because it just leads us onward and we keep going and going and going, trying to look deeper

and move the rocks aside and find the keys. And you know, that's sort of the crux of humanity is that it's this pressure for us to continue looking, but also it's amazing that we get to keep continuing to look absolutely And I want to come back to meaning, because you talk a lot about meaning, and pretty eloquently, but before we move from all I want to talk about, you say that it becomes something that if we acquaint

ourselves with it, it becomes infinitely abundant and accessible. You basically say, hey, you can get better at cultivating all. And I'd love if you could share maybe a little bit of how you think we can get better at

cultivating all. I thought a lot about the way that practice plays into this conversation, and how we have to practice tending to this good wolf, and we have to practice feeding the good wolf, and to be cultivating our sense of awe and wonderment in the world is part of that practice, because if you can remember to look around and find all of the things that create a sense of awe in you, which honestly can be anything.

And in my book, I talk about just the practice of choosing a random object in your house and letting it provide a sense of awe and wonderment, like where did it come from? Who made it? Why did you choose it? Why is this spoon in your drawer? You know? Was it your grandmother's spoon? Was it? And everything has a story in it, even you know, the piece of paper that you're writing on at your desk that was a tree. Like the whole process that creates everything around you,

from the natural world to the human made world. It's incredible. It has so much details, so much to offer, and I think a lot of times it's just easy for us to forget that. I decided to write that book every Day as a poem, not because I thought, oh, everyone can be a poet, but mostly because I thought, actually, the mindset of a poet is something that can be practiced. Like, you don't have to be a writer to see the

world as a poet sees the world. You can just teach yourself to find all of those details in any moment that you choose to. And it really is an art of noticing. It's being the observer, it's taking stock in the magnitude of wonder that's around you all the time. But it does take practice. You have to teach yourself to return to it. You have to teach your mind to pick up on those things or you'll miss it. Yeah,

a few things come to mind there. Tick not Hans says, if you're a poet, when you see a book, you also see the sun, and you see the clouds and you see rain. And you know, he's basically saying interdependence, right, which you were basically saying. If you take any one thing in the universe, you basically, if you pay close attention and you think about it, you have to trace it back to everything else, and that is all inspiring.

And so I love what you're saying. I love the idea of every day as a poem because I do think that what poet Tree does for me is it teaches me how to look, but by seeing how a poet is looking, it teaches me in ways to look more deeply. And that seems to be the key to opening up the beauty and all of the world, is to give it tons of attention, and it also turns

out for me. And I think a big portion of what you're saying in your book is that act of paying closer attention to everything is what helps transform our inner lives, right, And then you know, you can put that into practice in really tangible ways by you make a list of the things that cause you to have a sense of awe and then keep adding to it and see how truly plentiful that is and how ongoing it can be. And I have a lot of practices that I talk about in the book that are like that.

They seem really simple, and choosing these like everyday objects is actually a big part of it, because I think, you know, there's this sort of enormity that gets put upon the art of poetry and this this craft of poetry, and it's inaccessible. People don't understand it. It's not very welcoming. It's esoteric and strange, you know. But the truth is is that the heart of poetry is really simple. It's really just curiosity and observation and connecting small things to

large things. So it's not saying the large abstract idea without tying it to some image that lets it be real for all of us simpletons, you know, this kind of Oh, I can actually just be the person who sees this every day all the time. I don't need to have a background in poetry in order to see the world illuminated in verse, because everything has that. Yeah.

Early in the book, you say, if you treat everything like a poem, then everything has a chance to be important, sacred, powerful, or revolutionary, and we all have permission to enact that kind of remarkable meaning. I'd love to use that sentence as a chance to sort of skip out to a line that you have, which is that meaning is a choice, and so let's talk about meaning, how we construct it,

and what are ways to use that more poetically. Yeah, I think that creating meaning is actually the most impressive tool that humans have. No other animal does that. We are the animals that hold onto a rock and say this rock means this, and I've held it in these moments and it informs me in this way, and this is what it means. And so that's what it means.

And then if you say it enough, then other people will probably think that that's what it means also, and then it just does mean that because everyone's sharing this meaning. And I think that there's great power in that, because then everything in your life can be meaningful. But you have to choose to assign the meaning. You have to

do the work to create the meaning. It is tied to AWE because similarly like you have to choose to be in AWE, you have to choose to pay attention and notice these things and let the feeling come over you. You have to practice it, and just the same thing comes up with meaning is you have to practice making things meaning full. And a lot of times I find when I teach workshops and talk about this, people actually already do assign meaning to many things in their life.

They just don't think about it. And so this is this opportunity that you get to actually think about, what, what are the meaningful things in my life? Why are they meaningful for me? How could I make them more consistently meaningful in a conscious way, and how can I pay attention to that and and just fill my life up with this sense of significance because I think that's

what a lot of people are missing. And when you lose that sense of significance in your life, when you lose your sense of purpose or direction or meaning, you lose your energy to kind of keep creating this choice between the good wolf and the bad wolf. You know, if you don't continue to illuminate your life in this

way like I'm talking about, in this poetic way. Sure, but just even understanding why everything you choose to pay attention to or spend your time on is actually sacred, is actually meaningful, then you kind of lose your source energy, lose your ability to care. And I see that happen so much. You know, people slip into this abstract place where they're not creating meaning, they're not revitalizing their connections to the things or people in their life, and it

does take consistent work. I think the idea of offering up a book like every Day as a poem is to show, yes, I have this mentality and I have this way of being in the world that feels really magical,

and my life has been this incredible journey. But I work really hard to keep my mind in this place, like I work really hard to feed the good Wolf, and I think that that work can be really beautiful and can be really poetic, and that that's sort of the point of it is that actually we get kind of bogged down with all of this healing and spiritual work and the work of feeding the good wolf and turning yourself back to that again and again. It does take energy, but it can be this really be a

full poetic journey. It doesn't have to be you know, this stark hard. You know the tenacity we're talking about. You don't have to like bite your way through it. It could be more of a craft. I think we are meaning making machines. That's what the brain does. I don't think we can turn it off. It just happens. So since it's happening, becoming conscious of it is really so critical. You say that meaning is a choice. It's a fascinating process because I know I am the one

who adds significance to what is otherwise meaningless. And that's really the game is like what meaning am I making without knowing it? And how do I become more conscious in doing that? You know, I'm always seeing the world through a perspective I can't not, But how can I make that process conscious and wiser? For lack of a better word, I think that's where poetry comes in, and and the practice of writing things down is you're clarifying something for yourself and not only do you clarify it,

and maybe like a simple sentence or a list. I'm obviously very fond of making lists. I think that, like getting yourself clear on a piece of paper, is something that changes your life because you can just see this part of yourself written down and expressed in an explanation that you created for yourself. And I think that that's why people love poetry actually in general, because it reflects something of themselves back to them, even if they didn't

write it. You know, the poem is meant for you, so you get to see yourself it and whatever you're reading that's you, whatever you're reflecting on, whatever you're enjoying in the poem, whatever moves you, that's because that's a part of you. And so I think that the act of writing these things down helps clarify yourself for yourself,

and that that's such a healing thing to do. It is such a relief to be able to say, oh, these are the things that are meaningful to me, these are the ways in which I'm enacting those things in my life, and these are the things that are beautiful about that, Like, this is what makes this so unique and specific for me, and this is what connects it

to the greater story of humanity. And you know, you get to see these things expressed on paper if you can kind of practice that craft of poetry, and then that just sort of solidifies it the power of language in general, you know. And poetry is such an oral tradition that then you read your words out loud and it provides this affirmation. And I hear myself read the things that I've written, and you know, I know those things beyond my own knowing, They've come somewhere else for

me to be able to reflect on. And it's just this sort of great loop that happens, you know, And that happens when I read any beautiful work that I read. One of the keys to seeing the world poetically or treating every day as a poem you talk about, is remembering to concentrate on our senses. You know, I think senses are really kind of are portal to life. I mean, they are the way that we engage with so much of life. So talk about practices that help us to

deepen our connection to our senses. Yeah, I really like how this conversation is actually just circling around all these things that are just inherently human, and that that's kind of the point of this is that everyone has access to this. You know, it's not some strange esoteric thing to be able to have a poetic mindset. It's actually just within everyone. And you know, from awe to meaning to your senses, like, these are all things that I

actually think are kind of just inherently human. And the senses above all are great, special old tools that we get to use. And I'm always looking for things that usher people into the greater depth of whatever it is the poem is trying to offer, whether they're writing it themselves or reading it, or I'm writing it. I think I'm just always looking for that entry point and the senses are such an amazing consistent entry point because no matter what, if you try to focus on a sense,

you know you'll clear your mind. You'll give yourself the ability to get grounded and say, Okay, I'm just going to look at this ridgeline and see as far as I can what's the furthest tree that I can focus on. And if I do that, I guarantee all my thoughts leave for the moment that I'm doing that, and I calm my mind and I return to the steadfast energy of life that I'm looking for. Or if I'm writing a poem and I want people to be able to find that place, I bring in some of the senses

so that they can have an entry way. Because we all have these senses. So this is all something we share and it acts as this sort of portal from me to you to know, oh, that's what you're saying, and I can understand what you're saying because I can see it, I can smell it, I can taste it, I can hear it, I can touch it at whatever. And I think that we forget about our senses, and so often they're just something that we use without really thinking about it. But if we use them as sort

of these bells of mindfulness. I like to think of them as, you know, just this little bell that's like here, turned to this. Now, remember that you are like fully alive and engaged in all these ways that you might forget about every day. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the most helpful practices. And you could consider it an artistic practice, you could consider it a psychological practice,

you could consider it a spiritual practice. Is just this exercise I've heard referred to as grounding yourself in your senses. I used to do it when I worked in a corporate job. I did it every day walking from my car to the desk and back, which is just like, what are five things I can see? What are five things I can hear? What are five things I feel in my body? It's such a exercise that just boom,

all of a sudden, here I am. I love that everything that we've been talking about kind of uplifts this concept that all of these tools are there for us. They're all there for us. They've been explored and expressed in so many different ways on so many different levels of lessons and teachings and spiritually and and health wise and there's just all these tools that are out there

for us. And when I wrote this book, I thought, Okay, this is my offering of the tools that have helped me and that I've collected over the years, Like little by little, I've pieced these things together and been able to understand, like, this is what makes me a great poet, sure, but this is also what helps me just be a healthy human being and helps me, you know, do the work that I do and be in service to others

and be a happy person in the world. And I'm constantly finding myself in a position where people are asking to be reminded of the tools. They're asking to remember how do I do this? How do I get out of this? How do I stop turning towards the darkness? How do I let it blend? How do I find the balance? And I just think that that's sort of what poetry does, is it just offers up these reminders like here's another tool, like this is a beautiful thing

that came from suffering. This is a beautiful thing that came from anger. And look, here's how I found the balance in the forest this one time. And I'm just another human being trying to figure out how to use the tools and remember that they exist. So poetry offers these great reminders where you can just keep tapping into

it over and over again. And I think trying to help people write poetry just takes that to the next level, because once you're creating your own meaning, once you're creating your own you know, written word, then you're kind of solidifying it even deeper. You won't forget. If you do it yourself, you won't forget as easily. Yeah, my friend Chris, who's also the producer of this show, him and I have been doing this practice lately where we do shared haiku.

So one of us starts, you know, the first line, five syllable text it to the other guy. The other guy then does the seven lines, and then the first person finishes the five and then the next day the other person starts it. But it has been so fun.

We've created maybe thirty of these at this point. Just takes two minutes, but it's such an enjoyable thing to do, and I love doing it because it sort of engages me poetically, but it also engages me poetically with someone else and sort of this back and forth that I've

really enjoyed doing it. I love that, and I also love that you said it's fun because the playfulness of exploring all of these tools and using all these tools, Like oftentimes, you know, people think of me as a very serious person because my poetry does explore very serious, traumatic, intense concepts, but I'm also a total goofball and have so much fun just playing with language. Because it's such a strange and fascinating human tool. It should be fun.

It should be playful because we can only use it to a certain extent. It continues to change, but not really that much like in our lifetime language you know it, we'll see it change some, but it's really sort of like this steadfast, strange realm that doesn't really offer the most expansiveness unless you're having fun with it, and then it can because you can push the limits and you

can dig into it further. And I'm always trying to remind myself to just slow down and have a good time with it, even if I'm kind of exploring something that's really hard. Yeah, And I think for me it's been really important. My artistic journey has been one of caring less about what actually gets made and investing myself in the process. Of making it absolutely. I talk about that a lot in the book, like the process is

what informs you and your growth as a person. The practice is what shows you, like maybe is it hard to focus or what's difficult about writing this certain thing? But I talk a lot about out the feeling of don't be hung up on an outcome, because it's never just one thing anyway, Like it is really something to write a book and how to be published and bound and say that this is the end of this. People always ask me, how do you know when you're done writing the poem? And there are a lot of tools

to help figure out that answer to that question. And I always say, like, have a good editor, because then they'll tell you when to be done. Because it's really hard. But you don't want to have to be thinking about what you're going to do with this work. I mean it will serve you without being in a solidified state at the end in a hardcover book or something like that. It will serve you just by showing up and giving

it attention. Listeners have probably heard me talk about this, But there was a point in life where I thought music was what I really wanted to do. But I'm not frankly just naturally that talented at it and it just didn't go that way. So there was almost a period of unlearning for me where I had to redefine my relationship to music, and the definition was this doesn't have to turn into anything. I just rediscovered the joy of making it and that has served me infinitely. Well. Yeah, absolutely,

it is one of my best and most reliable friends. Yeah, and it probably helps you in so many ways. I mean it just the practice of art making is the point of art making. That is the point, and I kind of try to reiterate that throughout the book, which I'm just like, you don't have to write this down, actually, like you can have a poem in your mind and practice this however you want. I think writing things down

helps because it gives you some clarity. You get to see it reflected back on the page, you get to say things out loud. It's an affirmation. Engage with that however you want, whatever it works for you, and just enjoy it. Yep. It's so funny that the minute we start creating something, there's a natural jump to is it good? Who will want it? This gets back to speaking about meaning if I can redefine the meaning that's coming up this culturally reinforced me, which is, if you make art,

it has to be out there in some way. And if we can recognize, oh, that's what we're making it mean, I can make it mean something different. I can just make it be about doing it, you know. And that's why when I heard the title of your book, I was like, I've got to talk to her, because this idea of living our life poetically, I think speaks very clearly to like you said, it's these tools, tools for art, tools for healing of all different types, they're the same tools.

And I loved this idea of looking at it that way. Yeah, what you just said made me think of this big bad wolf concept and how we're constantly asked to feed into capitalism and create artwork that will sell and make things that will give us money and items and goods and blah blah blah. The whole pressure of creating an end product that will get you fame or that will

get you success. And this story that has been woven around all of that actually takes away from the heart of it, you know, takes away from the heart of most of the heart of artwork is usually storytelling or sharing some kind of you know, conceptual feeling or thought behind whatever the artwork is that you're making. And that is what humans do. We carry on our feelings and stories and ideas through these works of art. But then

we've attached this huge weight of capitalism to this. And so now I've seen many artists sort of buckle under this pressure of trying to feed this nasty wolf that that's actually not the point and funny enough that will just eat you up. It will never be enough. You will never feel satisfied if you continue to kind of feed into that loop because its job is to eat you up. Actually, whereas this other wolf, it doesn't even

really need that much from you. You know, this good wolf doesn't need you to consistently find a way to succeed and to have an outcome to make something that is sell bowl. It just needs you to be kind and good and to fill yourself up and to you know, find your creative expression that does that work. And that the stark difference between those things is so ironic because the truth is is that yes, you will never actually be able to feed the bad wolf enough. That's not possible.

That's right, The bad Wolf is essentially insatiable in that way because whatever success you have, if you're measuring it in outward success, there's always another level. There's always someone who has more. You have a line to say, I remind myself often that being alive isn't about outcomes, and I love that sense of being alive isn't about outcomes for me. That's a large thesis of the book is I remind myself often, which is a huge part of it.

Like I do the work of reminding myself often that it's not about this or that or whatever the end of the sentences, but you know, just consistently doing that work. So we talked about having you do what you do, which is spontaneously composed a poem. So just tell listeners I briefly touched on it, but talk about what the poetry store is, and just share a little bit more

about it to give the context. Well, back in two thousand nine, I started typing poems spontaneously on my typewriter in public places like at street fairs and things like that. It was just an experiment. A friend of mine was doing that in San Francisco and Oakland, and he was like, you should try it. No one ever does it with me because it's really hard, and so I just purchased a typewriter, and I thought, why not. This sounds fun.

And honestly, most things that I've tried in my life as an artist that have quote unquote worked and been successful are just things that I was like, this is a weird idea. I'm going to just try it. It would be an experiment. And then all these years later that was my only job to write poems for people.

I could not believe how impactful this experience was. Sitting with strangers, listening to them tell me whatever subject, whatever they want the poem to be about, and then in a matter of a minute or two, I write this verse for them. And every single time I went out, people cried. There was so much in this exchange. I knew right away from the first moment that I wrote one of these poems, this is way, way, way bigger

than anything I could have imagined it to be. And I dedicated myself to it because what a rare opportunity to see poetry work like that in person. You know, I know that it works like that for me when I read poems alone in my room and books from

poets who I love. But what a thing to be in the position to sit and not only create in front of someone and watch this, you know, this performative aspect of it is really interesting because these people get to watch my brain work basically, and watch me create on the spot. But then I get to watch them react to being seen and heard and understood and known.

And the reflection is so clear. And it's been so important for me to continue seeing, even through just writing poems for people over the internet, how important poetry really is to people. It's a conversation, is what it is. And that's what feels so special about getting someone to tell me a subject and responding to their subject matter. It kind of takes me out of the equation, like, yes, I'm the person writing it, but I actually don't know what I've written until I read it out loud. I

don't think while I'm writing it. I'm not thinking, oh, what's the next word, and well, maybe I'll get this concept in there. No, it's some trance like thing happens to me and I write a poem and I read it out loud, and whoever i'm reading it too is shown a part of themselves and that that kind of conversation is just so unique and beautiful, and I did it for years. I couldn't stop doing it. It was such a beautiful thing. It was such a rare opportunity

to connect with people in such a deep way in public. Yeah, it's so incredible, it's so amazing. So we're going to open the poem store back up here. It's open for business, and have you create a poem for us right here. I thought a little bit about this, and I was like, well, what what do I want the poem to be about? And I first thought, well, you know, I'd love to have a wonderful poem to give to my partner Jinny, you know. And then I've had beans here the dog.

I thought I'd love to have a poem about beans. But really the poem should probably be about the wolves. I think that's probably the appropriate thing, given that that's what we're on the show here for. So do you need any more from me? Or you've got enough? You've got our whole conversation up till now. So I don't know I got enough, And I will say that, you know, the most common subject is love. That's what people always

want to palm about. But I always ask them what kind of love, and I always get them to give me all these different details because love is so specific, and I think that having it be about these wolves that will be in there. All right, love is in that story. All right, here we go. Listeners, you're going to hear her typing. That's going to be what's going to happen, m d m okay, two wolves. The center of self expands as a choice, a constant flame that requires us to turn from the weight of mind and

world toward heart and light, towards gentleness and ease. Why would we struggle to feed one who will never stop eating, who doesn't fill us in return? This is not the point this answer. What matters is how we shift, how we unfurl in the direction of goodness and drink from this cup of quality, this never ending gift. Bravo. I love it. I love it. I felt a strong desire while you were doing that to a company you with music, but I didn't have anything handy, and I didn't want

to interrupt the process. But I don't know if you've ever if you've ever taken a musician out with the poetry store. But there you go together. Yeah, yeah, absolutely well, that is a wonderful poem. We will definitely make sure to put in the show notes so that listeners can reflect upon it more deeply. You and I are going to continue talking in the post show conversation where I'm going to ask you about some of your favorite shows. You know, some of your favorite poets, some of your

favorite poems. I do an episode every week called a Teaching, a Song and a Poem that I give to supporters of the show, where I pick a poem that I love. Listeners, if you'd like access to that episode the post show conversations add free episodes and all that good stuff as well as the joy of supporting something you value, you can go to One you Feed dot net slash joint. Jacqueline, thank you so much for coming on. I have really

enjoyed this conversation. I thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now. We are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and

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