What happens when we try to push that beach ball of anxiety underwater is that it's going to pop up later, and probably with more force than before.
Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. We hope you'll enjoy this episode from the archive. Thanks for
joining us. Our guest on this episode is doctor Ellen Hendrickson, a clinical psychologist who helps millions calm their anxiety and be their authentic selves through her award winning podcast, The Savvy Psychologist, and in the clinic at Boston University's Center for anxiety and related disorders. Her debut book is How to Be Yourself, Quiet, Your Inner Critic, and Rise Above Social Anxiety.
Hi Ellen, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me Eric.
I'm really excited to talk with you. Your book is called How to Be Yourself, Quiet, Your Inner Critic and Rise Above Social Anxiety. And I know this is something that a lot of our listeners deal with and are going to be really happy to hear about. So we'll get into the book in a second, but let's start like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always
a battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second, and she looks up at her grandfather. She says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work.
That you do, absolutely. So since we are here to talk about social anxiety and how to rise above it overcome it, we might assume that social anxiety is the bad wolf, and it's you know, it's certainly not like greed or hatred. It's definitely not in that camp. But you know, it holds a lot of people back. It keeps a lot of people from living if they want to live. But I will argue that actually it's not all bad for two reasons. So one is that social
anxiety often comes bundled with some really wonderful strengths. So I'm going to start out on a positive note here for all our listeners with social anxiety, because because folks with social anxiety often have things like high standards, deep empathy, they are pro social, which is simply means helpful and altruistic. They're often good listeners, often very conscientious, you know, work hard to get along with people, which is ever more
important in this increasingly diverse world. And the best part is that all those wonderful things don't go away even as we work on our social anxiety and it lessens.
So that's one thing. But secondly, a little bit of social anxiety actually serves a really useful function, Like a little bit of insecure is part of the human condition, and I would argue is necessary because a little bit of self doubt, a little bit of social anxiety helps us monitor ourselves and monitor our behavior and is really I think necessary to spark introspection which makes us want to grow and stretch and change. And I always like to say we doubt ourselves in order to check ourselves.
And there's some really fascinating research out there that the opposite of social anxiety is not confidence as we think it might be, but it's actually psychopathy. It's been a psychopath which is characterized, you know, by a disregard for others, being really ruthless, reckless, irresponsible, having a real lack of empathy.
So I would say to our listeners with social anxiety, you know, so you know, it's certainly fine to put the social anxiety wolf on a diet, and we can talk about how to do that, but don't starve it completely because a little bit of it is necess saria and keeps you human wonderful.
That's a great perspective to start things off with. So let's talk for a minute about what is happening in the brains of people who have social anxiety versus the people that aren't. There's some really clear things that we're able to see and notice about people who have social anxiety.
Yeah no, we're gonna jump right into the neuroscience. Okay, yeah, so yeah, So it's it's interesting. So the architecture of the brains of people with social anxiety versus people without social anxieties all the same, you know, all the same parts are are there. But my analogy is that when there's a perceived social threat, you know whether or not that's actually a social threat. When there's a threat, the brains of folks without social anxiety will send a firetruck
to the scene right away. And with the folks with social anxiety, our brain sends a guy on a bicycle with a bucket of water. It's a slower response, and it's it's just it's not it's not as robust a response. And so there is all this room left over to jump to the worst case scenario or to uh, to kind of freak out because our friend has not texted us back, and we assume it's because they hate us.
And so for somebody without social anxiety, their brain will kick in and say, well, you know, she's probably just busy, maybe she's in the bathroom, maybe her phone died. Whereas with the folks with social anxiety, that prefrontal cortex response, that response of the you know, the part of our brain that is reasonable and logical, doesn't kick in right away. There's a like about a three second leg and in those three seconds a lot of freaking out can happen.
And so the good news is that there are things that can change this speed and intensity of response, and cognitive behavioral therapy is one of those. We can talk about that. But my point is that as you practice, and as you grow and stretch and try to change and really face your fear is a little at a time, you can change your brain and make it look much more like the folks without social anxiety.
And would it be safe to say that this brain pattern is common across all types of anxiety.
That's a great question. I don't know if that is the case. So basically what happens in anxiety is, yes, the amigdala sounds the alarm. Now, so the amigola is part of the fear system. It's not the fear center per se, but it's part of the fear system. It's also a member of many other systems. It's a kind of a jack of all trades, but it is particularly prominent in anxiety. And then the prefrontal cortex will we'll
talk it down and we'll tuck it off the ledge. So, like I said, in social anxiety, that response takes longer and the response is less robust. I honestly don't know if that is the case in other forms of anxiety, like say OCD or generalized anxiety or phobias. I don't know if science knows that. Personally, I am not sure.
And so one of the things that you say is the biggest challenge with social anxiety, and frankly this is kind of with a lot of types of anxiety is avoidance. So talk to me about what avoidance is and why is it so harmful.
Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up. Avoidance absolutely drives social anxiety. This is the big If we are feeding a wolf, avoidance is its favorite food. And so there are two types of avoidance in social anxiety. One is overt avoidance, and that's when we don't show up to the party or we don't raise our hand in class,
it's refusing to do the thing. Now, there's also covert avoidance, which is showing up to the party but perhaps only talking to the person we came with, or scrolling through our phone so we don't have to make eye contact with anyone, or spending most of our time, you know, petting the host's cat. We might raise our hand in class, but then second guess ourselves, or we might rehearse the answer that we're going to give before we actually say it, and then after we say it kind of check it
mentally to make sure we didn't sound stupid. So there's there's there's a lot. There's a lot of tricks that our brains play to try to artificially tamp down the anxiety. But what happens when we avoid, when we try to push that beach ball of anxiety underwater, is that it's going to pop up later, and probably with more force than before.
You say that avoidance means well, but by protecting us from a situation, it inadvertently sends the message that we just can't cope with it.
Exactly. So, avoidance feeds anxiety, and it feeds the two lies of anxiety, which are one that the worst case scenario is a foregone conclusion that if I raise my hand and answer this question in class, that I will inevitably get it wrong and everyone will look at me, and maybe the professor will laugh or something something terribly humiliating will occur. And so by avoiding, we don't get
the chance to learn through experience that that doesn't happen. Secondly, we don't get a chance to learn that we can cope with things that that we can handle either more than we think or we can handle what, you know, what naturally occurs when we answer that question in class or when we go to the party or whatever it is that we're avoiding that with, you know, with some time and practice, Like we might be uncomfortable at first, but as we try, you know, as we kind of
inch our way into the pool, you know, we don't have to do a Candon ball into the deep end. But as we enter our way into the well, we can we can handle this, We can do this.
We've given our Instagram account a new look, and we're sharing content there that we don't share anywhere else, encouraging positive posts with wisdom that support you in feeding your good wolf, as well as in behind the scenes video of the show and some of Genianiz's day to day life, which I'm kind of still amazed that anybody would be interested in. It's also a great place for you to give us feedback on the episodes that you like, or concepts that you've learned that you think are helpful, or
any other feedback you'd like to give us. If you're on Instagram, follow us it at one underscore you underscore feed and those words are all spelled out one underscore You underscore feed to add some nourishing content to your daily scrolling. See you there. Let's talk about one of the major players in our social anxiety, which is the inner critic. Yes, tell me about what the inner critic is, and then let's go into how can we work with the inner critic in relation to social anxiety.
We all have an inner critic, like this is just hardwired. Nobody except the psychopath, like I mentioned before, is without an inner critic. And so in social anxiety, this inner critic will tell us that we have a fatal flaw, that there is something that is wrong with us, and that if we don't work very hard to conceal it, it will be revealed and people will judge or reject us for it. And this inner critic usually chooses a
trait from one of four buckets. So that first bucket is appearance, and so our inner critic might say you're too fat, or your ugly, or your hair is weird, or something to that extent. The second bucket that our inner critic likes to kind of dip into is the signs of anxiety themselves, So our inner critic might say, wow, you better, you better hide, or people will see that
you're blushing and they'll think you're an anxious shreak. Or they'll see that you're sweating through your shirt, or that your voice is trembling as you speak, or that your hands are shaking. That the signs of anxiety themselves will give you a way and people will judge you. The third bucket are social skills, so the inner critic will say, you know you're boring, nobody wants to listen to this story, you have no sense of humor, you have no personality.
It will be very critical of one's attempt to connect with others. And the last bucket is the biggest bucket, and it's where the inner critic criticizes one's kind of entire personality. So you're stupid, or you're incompetent, or nobody wants you hear it, you're you're a loser. And so in one of those four buckets, the inner critic will, you know, choose one of these and we'll we'll let
you know it. And the bucket they dip into can change, you know, over time, over the lifespan from situation to situation, or maybe it'll whisper more than one thing at you. But but whatever it is, it feels like God's honest truth.
It feels like self consciousness on steroids. And an analogy I like to use is for folks who don't have social anxiety, is that it's it's as if like we've all had days where we look in the mirror and there's just something off, like we you know, we're having a really bad hair day, or like suddenly we have a really big ZiT or something to that extent, and if we have to go out in public like that, we will feel self conscious and try to cover it.
So maybe we'll you know, wear a hat that day, or we'll you know, try to cover that, is it with some you know, some concealer or something like that. But if you can't. If you have, I have to go out with your hair looking weird or this big ZiT, you feel very self conscious. You feel like everybody's paying attention to it, and that they'll judge you or notice it and evaluate you negatively. So it's that same feeling that's the seed of the feeling, but blown up to
a whole other level. And rather than being about something external, it's usually about something internal, so something about personality or like who we are, how we conduct ourselves in the world.
Right, And I think those four buckets are so informative, and they sort of by being able to sort of see what it is that we are feeling anxious about or that we're afraid about, leads me into a tool that you talk about that you call social anxiety mad libs. Yeah, sure, so walk me through what this is, because it's one of the first steps in a really powerful tool that you talk about and is a cornerstone of cognitive behavioral therapy, which.
Is replace exactly anxiety mad libs is essentially this sentence, So it's you know when, and then fill in the blank here, just like in mad libs, fill in a social situation that makes you feel anxious. So when I raise my hand in class, it will become obvious that I am blank, I am stupid, I am stuttering, I am turning red, whatever whatever it is. When I go out with my coworkers, it will become obvious that they
don't really want me here. If I ask someone out on a date, it will become obvious that I have no personality, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So you can, you can fill in, have your inner critic fill in the blank. Think about the things that you avoid and what what is your feared reveal? What are you afraid is going to be shown to the world, And that's
that's what your critic is whispering to you. For me, So I have a history of social anxiety myself, and you know, many decades and a PhD in clinical psychology later, I am doing much better. I am to the point where it does not own me. And I still get nervous about particular things, like, for instance, being like if I'm around somebody in authority, I can get a little tongue tied and formal. I don't love being on camera. I can do it, but I don't not a huge fan.
I can speak in public, I have psych myself up beforehand, but I can do it anyway. And so my inner critic has kind of shifted throughout my life. When I was in college, it was if or when when I show up at a social event, it will become obviously I am a big loser. When I was starting my career, it was when I, you know, hand in whatever work I am doing, it will become obvious that I'm incompetent.
When I was writing how to Be Yourself and I had to cold email intellectual luminaries who have studied social anxiety for their whole lives, it was when I email these people, it will become obvious that I am annoying. And I know enough now that I can put some space between my inner critics whisperings and say like, okay, inner critic, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to help me, You're trying to keep me safe.
I appreciate that, but really you're holding me back. And so again I thank you, and I'm going to go do this now because I know from experience, from not avoiding you know over many many years that the thing that you're trying to tell me is actually not true. So there's a big difference between I'm annoying, which sounds like a truth, and I'm having the thought that I'm annoying, which is just a thought and can be challenged. And so that brings us to the tool you mentioned, which is replace.
Yes, and it's such a powerful tool. I really love the way that you go into it. And before we go too far into it, I want to stress what replace isn't. And you're saying that replacing is not about thinking positive or positive thinking or positive affirmations. You say, those don't get you very far in the court room of your brain.
Right exactly. So replace is not simply taking. So we'll take my last example of I'm annoying, and it's not simply saying like no, I'm awesome, Like it's it's not. It's not. It's not just like having a cheerleader, you know, stand on the opposite shoulder, you know, of your inner critic and say like no, like go girl, you can do it. It's that's it's not. It's not that simple. We're not trying to look through rose colored glasses when we replace. We're trying to look through clear colored glasses.
We're trying to look at this more accurately exactly. And so so what we can do is is ask some questions of the inner critic. And so one the first thing that it's very important to do is to specify. And so anxiety is all anxiety, particularly social anxiety is vague. So anxiety will tell us something bad we'll happen, or everybody will hate me, And those are so vague, what what particular bad thing will happen? Or who is this?
Everybody name names, and so we need to reduce and specify in pinpoint what exactly it is we are afraid of. Because if we can whittle down something bad will happen to, you know, my shoes will click clack on the floor too well the and everybody will turn and look to see who that is. Then that becomes much easier to to logic with. So they look at me. That's how how bad is that is? That? That I can handle that as opposed to something bad will happen or everybody
will hate me. We can whittle that down to I will go to a party and try to make conversation and the person I talk to will give me a weird look and say he has to go refill his drink. Now you know that's there are a lot of different reasons for that. Maybe he's maybe he's hungry, maybe he's an a mood, maybe he's kind of a jerk. And so if we specify what exactly it is we are afraid of, what our feared outcome is, then it becomes much easier to logic our way out of. So that's one to specify.
Yeah, it's such a powerful tool to go away from that that sort of vague, amorphous fears that we have and sort of boil them down to all right, here's what the actual thing is. Even just that alone can be so powerful. And then from there you recommend three magic questions.
Sure, so, so the magic questions want to specified, are you know, what's the worst that can happen? Like? What what? What am I really afraid of? Let's let's push this to to its limit. And and so when when we think about like, okay, like what what what is the worst that can happen? So let's let's say we are going to a job interview, So what's the worst that can happen? Yeah, I don't I don't get the job?
How And then the next question, how bad is that? Well, I guess, you know, if I really want this job, that would that would be disappointed. I you know, I've I've worked hard, I've prepared. I would really like this job. But if I don't get it, I can look for another job. So so really think about, like what's what's the worst case scenario? Sometimes we realize that the worst case scenario would never actually occur, which makes it very
easy to logic with. So for example, we might think, in a I don't know, crowded cafeterre, we we ask, oh, is this is this seat taken? The worst case scenario, the person stands up and stops at us and says, yes, this seat is taken. What are you doing? Go away? Nobody wants you here. That's never going to happen. So
that's often the things that that our brain comes up with. Once, once we either write them down or say them out loud, we realize, wait, whoa, my brain is is going a little haywire here and in this universe that would never occur. So be very helpful to think about, like, what what is my brain think is the worst case scenario? And then and then we can ask to go with that same example, what are the odds? What are the odds
that will actually occur? Because again, our inner critic and our social anxiety tells us that terrible things are a foregone conclusion, when actually most people are nice, most people are helpful. It's really hard to hate up close. If you're talking to an individual person, it's the chances that they will be rude to you are actually quite low. So what are the odds is another question you can ask yourself. And then the third is how would I cope?
What would I do if the worst case scenario or or even the most likely case scenario comes to pass? How how can I deal with that? What can I do? What resources can I gather? Is? If something were to occur that we're to rattle you, could you call a friend and talk it out. Could you take care of yourself and maybe just take a few deep breaths, or next chance you get, go to a yoga class? Can you, like, what can you do to take care of yourself if
something you know untoward were to happen? So to realize how bad could this be? What are the odds? And how would I cope? So those are the three questions you can ask yourself to kind of psyche yourself up to go into the situations very slowly, again at your own pace that you fear.
Yeah, those are such great tools and such a really practical way of having some very specific questions that we can ask ourselves, and you know, the very process of getting very specific. So much of this stuff it's not about positive thinking. It's about not about rose colored glasses, but it's about precision in our thinking and really trying to sort of, you know, pull things out of the closet and look at them, you know, a little bit
more closely and from a few different angles. And when we do that, it usually shrinks things down to some degree.
Yes, yes, yeah, you're you're absolutely right. So it's taking these thoughts that are often very automatic or you know, our inner critic sometimes just becomes a habit and we avoid things just because we always have. But if we stop and really shine a bright light on what it is we're afraid of, we might realize either wait a minute, that's unlikely, that's illogical, or I could probably handle that. So let me go and try that and see what happens.
Let me do a little experiment and see what occurs, and so and any of those things will get us, We'll start to get us unstuck and rolling on our way.
Yep. So let's move to another major tool, which is embrace. So step one is we're replacing. Step two is embracing. So what are we doing in the embrace step?
Sure? So with embrace, this is codeword for acceptance, which is also code for mindfulness. And so I talked a little bit about this before without really labeling it as such, in terms of the difference between just the taking the thought as truth and taking it as a thought. And so to to get some space and realize that all the things our inner critic is whispering to us are are just thoughts, that's all it is, and that we don't have to follow the inner critics directions or even
follow it to its advice is actually quite lousy. It's keeping us from, you know, living the life we want to live. It's probably holding us back. And so some some mindfulness and just realizing like, Okay, I might feel like this social anxiety is a ball and chain. I might feel like it is really shackling me and hold me back. But in reality, what I can do with embrace and mindfulness is to pick up that ball and
carry it with me. The ball is still going to be there, the inner critic's still going to be there, the thoughts will still come, but rather than reacting to the thoughts, I can choose how to respond to the thoughts, and in that is a whole world of difference. So there's a lovely study on mindfulness and social anxiety by two Canadian researchers, doctor Stephanie Cassen and doctor Neil Rector.
And so they trained about sixty people with diagnosables so what I call capital s social anxiety for just ten minutes in either mindfulness distraction, which is paying attention to something that is not the task at hand, and the third group got trained in nothing at all. So there are three conditions, mindfulness, distraction, and then a pure control condition.
So in the mindfulness condition they were taught have focus on their breath to bring their attention back when it wandered, to be aware of their thoughts and feelings, and accept their experience in the present moment. So after this you know, little ten minute training, these sixty people with you know, social anxiety were asked to remember a really humiliating awkward or anxiety provoking experience like a date gone horribly wrong, or a presentation that flopped, or like something super awkward
they did at a party. And so they were asked to bring memory to mind as vividly as possible, to like really get in there and wallow around in their embarrassment and their anxiety for five minutes, and then they
rated how upset they were about that. Okay. Then for the next five minutes they were asked to apply what they had just learned mindfulness distraction, which was basically trying not to think about it or just to wait it out, and then they were asked to rate how upset they were again, and so, of course, which you know which group won out. So the mindfulness group won out because and so their distress went down steadily and significantly over
those five minutes. In distraction it didn't go down at all, and in the weighted out group it actually went up. And so this was after just ten minutes of training, which I think is remarkable, And so it really speaks to how simply being aware that like this, this is the thought I'm having and that's okay, I can accept my thoughts and feelings in the as a present in
the present. We want to realize it's it's just a thought can be so helpful in reducing that distress that goes along with social anxiety.
Yeah, it is so powerful to actually be able to just experience what's actually happening in a more open and non judgmental way. The other part of embrace that you
talk about that I think is so important. You give an example of like how two different coaches might help somebody and one is really yelling at them and the the other is the other is being kind, and so a big part of embrace that you talk about is just this turning our inner environment into a hospitable place, and the huge difference that makes if we just treat
ourselves like we would a friend. I feel like that's one of the most fundamental shifts if we can learn to make to consistently think about, all right, how am I talking to myself? What am I saying to myself? And what would I say to a friend? And can I just turn the tone back towards a kinder, more hospitable interior environment.
Absolutely. Yeah. We can't heal in a punitive environment. You can't grow in a punitive environment. And so I've talked to a lot of people who say that their inner critic is a real jerk, you know, like really yells at them or tells them they're stupid or that they're an idiot, and they would never say that to a
friend or somebody they love. And so trying to translate, you know, the again, the inner critic means well, even if even as the inner critic is calling you an idiot, it's trying to help you, it's trying to keep you safe. But what we can do is to use what's you know, what is widely known as self compassion and to to talk to ourselves in a compassionate, more accepting bay. And when we create that environment, then we can grow and change.
We're not we're not letting ourselves off the hook. We're not giving in So a wonderful example I've heard from doctor Kristin Neff, who is a researcher at the University of Texas and has done a lot in the field of self compassion, is that she says, imagine, imagine a compassionate mother. That mother is not going to say, go ahead and eat all the cookies, no problem. The compassionate mother will say, well, I know cookies are tempting. I totally get that you want to eat all these cookies,
but maybe you can make a healthier choice. And so it doesn't it doesn't allow you to be indult. It doesn't let you off the hook and say like you don't have to go to the party, or you don't have to apply for that promotion, or you know, you don't have to go hang out with your co workers. It doesn't allow you, but it says, you know, I know this is hard. It's really hard to go to a neighborhood barbecue where you only know a couple of people. It's really hard to go on a first date. It's
really hard to put yourself out there. It's really hard to walk up to someone and start a conversation. But you know what, you've done hard things before. I know you can do it. I know you can get through it. Give it a shot and see what happens. That's self compassion, And so for me, my inner critic actually is not a jerk. My inner critic is I like to say, a little old lady who clutches her pearls so she's
easily scandalized and says that's not appropriate. You can't do that, and so I will say to her like, thank you, I appreciate what you're doing. And it is hard to reach out to intellectual I luminaries, to research book. It is it is hard to do this, but you know, it actually is appropriate. I think they might be flattered that that I'm asking them for their advice or their wisdom. And so let's give this a shot and see what happens.
That makes the road so much smoother than saying, oh my gosh, this is not appropriate, this can't this can't be so uh So I've I've found it. It's it's much easier to talk to yourself as that coach as opposed to the putative coach, which is your your unvarnished inner critic.
Yes, I mean it really makes all the difference in the world. I mean it's a small change, it's also a huge change, but it is one of those things that's just so fundamental to a better and happier life. Absolutely, so, we're nearing the end of our time here, but let's talk about creating structure in our social situations. I found this to be a really powerful tool and a good alternative to, as you mentioned, spending all your time with
the cab. I love dogs, but if you put me in a party and there's a dog, it's a combination to me loving dogs and it being easier to pat and talk to a dog than a person.
I'll go right for it.
But I have found this trick of creating structure to be really helpful for me also, so I was wondering if you could share that with listeners.
Oh it's so great. I used this the other day. So yeah, my department at work had a spring reception, and so you know, and I know these people well enough now that it was I was not, you know, fantasizing about jumping out the window, you know, before I went. But at the same time, I said, okay, well let me go in with some structure. Let me give myself a mission to fulfill. I give myself a role to play.
And so this can be done formally. So for instance, like if you're a member of an organization like this, a well kept secret, in my opinion, is to take on a leadership role and that gives you a reason to talk to everybody, it gives you a duty to fulfill.
Or it can also be done informally like what I did at this respect where you can go in and say like, all right, I'm going to talk to each person, I supervise my boss and the receptionist, and after that I can go and to just kind of give yourself a mental checklist of like what you're going to do or who you're going to talk to, and then after that you're done. You can do the same thing in
terms of a goal. So like if you and your friends want to get together and make a goal to try every Mexican restaurant in town, or when you go to a birthday party, you can assign yourself the task of talking to, you know, two people you've never talked to before, or like if you're at a networking event, you can say, like, all right, I'm going to try to exchange three sets of business cards. Essentially, it gives you a purpose and it takes away the biggest driver
of anxiety, which is uncertainty. And so I can I'll I'll just close this bit with there's a lovely study I like to talk about by doctors Simon Thompson and Ron Repay and so they they're Australian researchers who work with social anxiety, and so they did this lovely experiment which brought in women with social anxiety, so diagnosable social anxiety, and then women who were kind of the opposite, not not psychopaths, but women who were kind of more confident
and outgoing and could chat easily with others. They were kind of at the top end of the extrovert socially confident spectrum. And one at a time, they had each of these women come into a waiting room, essensibly for the experiment, and little did they know that the experiment began as soon as they walked through the door. So they sat down and a male research assistant who they thought was also a participant came in, sat down next to them and said, I hope we don't have to
wait too long. And every thirty seconds for five minutes, if the conversation had lulled, he would give another prompt so he would say like, oh, nice weather we're having or something like that. And this went on for five minutes and was surreptitiously videotaped by the researchers. After five minutes, a researcher came in and said, oh, thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate you taking part in
the study. Here's your task for the next five minutes, I'd like to pretend that you're at a party, and I'd like the two of you to get to know each other as well as you can in the next five minutes. Go. So now they had some structure, they had a mission and a goal. And when these two five minute periods, these videotapes were watched and compared and
rated on social competence. When the raiders looked at those first five minutes with the women with social anxiety, they rated much lower than the women who were kind of more confidently chatty. But if we look at the second five minutes there the two groups, social anxiety and the
opposite thereof were almost neck and neck. The social anxiety group was a little bit behind, but not much, which is really impressive given that they were being compared to to people who you know, kind of do this naturally, who have never met a stranger. And so just a little bit of structure, kind of giving yourself a mission can magically take away that uncertainty, and it seems like it confers social skills, but really all it does is create a structure for you to kind of hang your
conversation on, and that that is so helpful. In so many situations.
Yeah, there's another one that you mentioned in the book that I have used, which is if I go into a networking situation when I don't know anyone, I will often make it my goal to find somebody who looks more uncomfortable than me and absolutely and go talk, you know, go talk to that person and try and help them to feel better.
It's a it's a tool that has.
Helped me often when I, you know, when I'm in a situation like that, because it does give me something to do. And also, you know, I've got a lot of experience. My previous company was a solar energy company, and I was always networking, and so I also found it really helpful, like you said, to go in with a goal of like, all right, I want to find these five people, and I want to have a conversation with them. Like it just gave me a little bit more focus than just standing there being anxious.
Absolutely, And the well kept secret is that pretty much everybody is waiting for somebody else to initiate, and when someone does initiate, they're so relieved, and so it takes the burden off of others when we initiate. When when we search out the person who might be kind of nervously scrolling through their phone or standing alone by the you know, punch bowl or the bar, you know, kind
of sipping their drink and looking around. And when we find the people who look like they could use some help starting a conversation or would be relieved if we started the conversation, oftentimes they're they're very grateful and it leads to a wonderful connection. So yes, I wholeheartedly support your technique there.
Yes, well, Ellen, we are at the end of our time here. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I really enjoyed the book, and I hope that these tools are useful to listeners. You and I are going to continue the conversation in our post show conversation where listeners can get access to that by becoming supporters of the show. If you're interested, go to oneufeed dot net slash support and we are going to talk about the five myths of
social anxiety in the post show conversation. But thank you again, Ellen, I really enjoyed this.
It was a delight to talk to you. Eric. Thank you so much for having me on the show.
Okay, bye.
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